Dr. Ali Dachner & Dr. Erin E. Makarius - From Departing Employees to Loyal Alumni

Dr. Alison M. Dachner is an Associate Professor of Management at the Boler College of Business, John Carroll University. She earned her Ph.D. from The Ohio State University. Dr. Dachner has experience working as Director of Education for an international call center as well as consulting on special projects in a variety of industries and companies, including NASA. Ali's research interests include how changes to the modern work environment and characteristics of certain populations (e.g., emerging adults) influence the design of strategies to most effectively engage, develop, transition, and retain employees and students. Her work has been published in Human Resources Management Review, Journal of Applied Psychology, Human Resource Development Quarterly, Journal of Management Education, and Academy of Management Annals. Ali is an Associate Editor for the Journal of Management Education. Her research can be found on Google Scholar and you can follow or connect with her on Twitter (@ProfDachner) or LinkedIn (Alison Dachner).

Dr. Erin E. Makarius is an Associate Professor of Management at the College of Business at The University of Akron. She received her Ph.D. from The Ohio State University. Dr. Makarius has several years of experience in human resources and management, including working at and consulting with a variety of companies in the financial, insurance, and consumer products industries. Erin's research interests include boundary spanning in the form of technological, international, and organizational boundaries, with emphasis on the role of relationships and reputation in these processes. Her work has been widely published in journals such as the Journal of Management, Organization Science, Academy of Management Perspectives, Journal of World Business, and Organization Studies. Erin's research has received media coverage in the Wall Street Journal, Financial Management, Fox News, Forbes magazine, NPR, SHRM, and the Akron Beacon Journal, among others. She is on the editorial review board of the Journal of World Business. Her research can be found on Google Scholar and you can follow or connect with her on Twitter (@ProfMakarius) or LinkedIn (Erin Makarius).

Harvard Business Review - Turn Departing Employees into Loyal Alumni

Quote From This Episode

• "Companies should begin their off-boarding programs at the moment of hiring."
• "It's really about connections, and then maintaining those relationships, not only while you're at the firm, but beyond that formal organizational boundary and continuing that relationship after people leave."

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

• The Alliance by Reid Hoffman 
• Remote Work Revolution by Tsedal Neeley 
• Think Again by Adam Grant  

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

• The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals with a keen interest in the study, practice, and teaching of leadership. 

Connect with Scott Allen

• Website

Transcript

Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate. 

Scott Allen  0:01  
Okay, everybody, welcome to Phronesis! Good day, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are in the world. And I have to really, they've been busy. And they have been publishing in the Harvard Business Review and doing really, really cool work and timely work. And I'm looking forward to this conversation today. I have Dr. Ali Dachner. She's a colleague of mine at John Carroll University. She's an Associate Professor of Management. And she has been published in any number of journals and engaged in academic scholarship, Journal of Applied Psychology, Human Resource Development Quarterly, Journal of Management Education, Academy of Management Annals. And of course, like I just said, Harvard Business Review. And we also have Dr. Erin Makarius. And she's an Associate Professor of Management at the College of Business at the University of Akron. She too is widely published, Journal of management, organizations, Science Academy of Management perspectives, Journal of world business organization studies, and like I said, Harvard Business Review. Erin, we'll start with you one of the blanks, well, you're a new mother, like two months old, is that accurate? and writing articles in the Harvard Business Review and making things happen out there in the world? And the article is pre-baby, so.

Erin E. Makarius  1:21  
But yeah, thanks for having us on the show. And just a little bit more about my research, I guess I'll start there is that I am interested in research on managing boundaries. And so whether that be organizational boundaries, and looking at work-life issues, or onboarding and offboarding, that we'll talk a little bit about today, or technological boundaries, and looking at the area of remote work and working virtually, or international boundaries and crossing boundaries to do work on a global scale as well.  I'm excited to be here today, john Carroll is my alma mater. And so I'm a two-time alumnus from both the undergraduate and the MBA program.

Scott Allen  2:03  
Well, thank you for being here. And Ali, Dr. Dachner, tell us a little bit more about you!

Ali Dachner  2:10  
Yeah, so professionally, I focused my research on HR strategies and program design to adapt to changing work environments, so kind of the future of employee development. And, you know, thinking about employee retention, a lot of my research was initially focused on turnover. And that was a natural transition into what we're talking about today, which is turnover is going to happen, we better be focused on more than just retaining people. But what happens after the fact? I focus on interpersonal relationships, I don't know if you've heard the joke in our MHR team, but they always have the social chair, like if we were a, you know, Greek organization, I'm very focused on the friendships and the collaborations and maintain those relationships. And so I'm excited today to talk about, you know, how those relationships really, transition and change, but don't just go away when someone leaves an organization? Yeah,

Scott Allen  3:06  
well, and you will have a quote in this article, and we'll put a link to the article, and to some of their work in the show notes so that you have access as a listener. But there's a quote in the article that really stood out for me, and I'd like to start there. And our topic for listeners is off-boarding. So you all say, "indeed, companies should begin their off-boarding programs at the moment of hiring." So talk about that. That's really an interesting perspective, I'd never thought of that.

Erin E. Makarius  3:37  
That was something that was surprising to us, as well, and came out of our research and interviews with program directors and with people that we're leaving these programs, as well as just managers and organizations and some of the best programs we found and said that you know, we actually invite our current employees as well to join our alumni program. And so I think this goes back to what Ali mentioned that it's really about those connections, and then maintaining those relationships, not only while you're at the firm, but beyond that formal organizational boundary and continuing that relationship after people leave.

Ali Dachner  4:15  
To add to that, one of the things that we think about with offboarding, a lot of times in companies, the idea is you turn in your keys, your training your equipment, and you leave and so we brought in the way we think of offboarding to be like really managing people out of sight out of the organization, that process of leaving, and that doesn't start at the point of exit. If we thought about how we want to treat people when they leave, and after they left when they leave. That's when emotions are high. That's when people are stressed. That's not the time to start thinking about it. The time to start thinking about building that climate that really helps transition people through their careers is early in the process of talent management. And so we consider this an extension of the talent management process. Not like its own unique thing that you just plop into an organization, but really a strategy that aligns with all things talent management, and has to be considered as you're designing all your HR or talent management programs.

Scott Allen  5:14  
Well, in the article, you mentioned that the average tenure Now, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics is about 4.1 years. That's accurate?

Ali Dachner  5:25  
It's decreasing as we speak. And especially, it's the, you know, the COVID impact, there's just that what people are calling the turnover, tsunami, right, that people are just leaving almost as quickly as they get there, within organizations. And that really brings like to two things that need to focus on retention, and how to get people to stay in this environment, which we think is important. We're not celebrating turnover. But also it highlights the need to consider how do we treat people when they leave when we know they are?

Scott Allen  5:59  
Talk about in your research, what were some of the hallmarks of effective offboarding? I mean, I've gathered so far, you're thinking about it well ahead of time, right. That's just, that's a norm. And that's something that's very, very critical. But how else are you thinking about it based on your research, what have you been finding are hallmarks of effective offboarding?

Erin E. Makarius  6:23  
As Ali mentioned, I think one of the hallmarks is that it's not just at the point of exit. So the programs that were really successful, we're creating a climate for career mobility and career transition. So really promoting the idea that we know you might not spend your entire career with us. But we value you while you're here. And we're gonna develop you while you're here and have conversations with you about where you want to go next, and help you get there. And so companies were engaging in processes that helped with career coaching, career development, as well as thinking about how to manage the exit process itself, and what should be done during exit, not only exit interviews, but also celebrating the time that the employee had been, you know, some of the companies we talked to actually had farewell parties, or gave gifts when people were leaving, and then creating alumni programs to maintain that connection, and have a continued relationship and not only having, you know, a LinkedIn group or a way to network but also having professional development events in the alumni network, somewhere extending benefits beyond your employment. So you might still get employee perks that would be valuable beyond that, and professional development opportunities anyway, to kind of help you as an individual, and hopefully foresee some benefits from that, that you might refer people to the firm, you might act as a brand advocate, you might have more relationships continued in the business relationships, such as clients or suppliers in the future for the company to come back. Right, right. Yeah, boomerangs are another benefit that we saw of some of these programs had from offering different aspects of the program.

Scott Allen  8:11  
Ali, what do you think? Does anything else come to mind for you?

Ali Dachner  8:14  
Yeah, I think Erin really kind of hit the nail on the head. It's that, you know, before, during, and after the exit, that we need to be thinking about a lot of the best programs we looked at. And we're all coming from experience with a Jesuit institution, I think a lot about the "Cura Personalis," right? Looking at the whole person. And our article, kind of, interestingly, was just published in German. And on LinkedIn, one of the comments someone wrote was that an employee is not only a person at the time they're employed, right, we're a lot more than just our time of employment. And that really got me thinking about viewing people who are part of the organization at one point as a whole person, viewing their whole selves while they're there, and their whole selves once they leave left. And that really highlights that there's no one best way because all people are different. And so just to add to what Erin said, about, you know, what's the best thing to do, it really does vary. And that's why it has to align with all other things HR because there's no one right way or cookie-cutter way to say we're going to offboard and manage alumni well. It's really all about the needs of the organization and the needs of the people leaving.

Scott Allen  9:27  
Well, who are some organizations doing this? Well, that you've come across that you've been really, really impressed with? You know, they've kind of began with the end in mind literally. And then beyond that formal and you know, the end of employment, but even the terminology of alumni is new for me.

Erin E. Makarius  9:48  
So I will say that there are certain industries that seem to be ahead of others. We see these alumni networks a lot more in consulting and in law firms, but we do see the growth that There tends to be a lot of corporations now that are offering alumni programs, and seeing benefits from them. And so this is becoming a lot more common than then even we thought when we began this research.

Scott Allen  10:14  
Who's doing it? Well,

Ali Dachner  10:16  
we have it. So one of the questions we're asking, and our research right now is how do you measure like get a return on investment? And who's doing it? Well, a lot of companies measure Alumni Engagement right now by how many people click on a link, how many people open the newsletter? How many people show up at events, but in the last year with COVID, There haven't been that many events. So one of the questions we're trying to answer is who's doing this? Well, right, who's really demonstrating that there's a return on investment for the organization? I mean, in the article, we comment on a lot of companies that have what we consider good practices that seem to think what they're doing, you know, going well, in, in some of the alumni members, we've spoken with agree. But right now, there's not enough academic research to really demonstrate that, you know, any specific organizations have that really high return on investment to Erin's point, it's those industries that are used to losing people in the first five to seven years. That started the term alumni, those that recognize the value of someone returning like a boomerang, or bringing business back to them or mentoring or coming back as an in a consulting project basis, that has really led the way here. And so those are the people we're trying to talk to you now, but I don't think we have the answers yet. that's one of our questions is what are the metrics for measuring success? And, and, you know, what does success look like?

Scott Allen  11:42  
I like the growth mindset, though, you get in there, right, Carol? Yeah, aren't there yet? Well, what's your hunch? I mean, what are you thinking about? As you think about ROI, what might some aspects of ROI ROI be? And what comes to mind?

Erin E. Makarius  11:59  
So we certainly see some companies looking at boomerangs, for example, and the number of employees that return referrals that we're starting to see alumni referral bonuses or incentives, brand advocacy. So Glassdoor ratings tend to be a big driver here. And then those continued relationships, working relationships, whether it be a client or supplier. But in our research, so far, many companies aren't measuring these things. And so there's an opportunity there. And the other kind of surprising factor that we realized is that companies that didn't have alumni networks, were having their employees go out and create these informal groups on their own, and not seeing the benefit. So it was really a missed opportunity for organizations that didn't have that in place.

Scott Allen  12:49  
That's interesting. Well, and I just want to clarify that this is what you said that some companies are even offering referral bonuses to people who are alumni. Is that accurate? 

Ali Dachner  13:01  
Yes. So it's talent acquisition, not only in the form of having a boomerang come back but talent acquisition form of, I might not have been the best fit here. Or you couldn't promote me in a way that my degree and experience indicate I should have. And it was best for me to leave, right? We look at the romantic literature, breakup, right? Like on a breakup, like we're better as friends. And you know what, as friends, I'm now gonna hook you up with someone who's a better fit for you. 

Scott Allen  13:28  
Here's Paul! 

Ali Dachner  13:29  
Exactly. And they're recognizing the value.

Scott Allen  13:34  
Yeah. Oh, that's really cool. Interesting. Any of any other aspects of ROI that you're exploring are coming to mind?

Erin E. Makarius  13:44  
I think net promoter scores are something that we're seeing more of, and then the alumni programs themselves, as Ali mentioned, are tracking a lot of who's coming to the events, how many people are they getting to join? What are their engagement levels? So it really is becoming a metric that's being measured, and, you know, hopefully, managed in that process of talent management, I think that's something we really want to emphasize is we don't see this as a one-off program, that it really has to be consistent with everything you offer throughout the HR experience and throughout your process of managing talent in organizations.

Scott Allen  14:19  
It's a pipeline, it's holistic, right?

Erin E. Makarius  14:21  
Absolutely. And, you know, our focus is on the outflow. But you know, as we talked about with the benefits is that it can influence the inflow. And so we really do see it as a pipeline process of looking at the flow in its entirety.

Ali Dachner  14:36  
And it could be cyclical, right? It's not, it circles, right back to where we started.

Scott Allen  14:42  
Yeah. No, how did the two of you land on this topic?

Ali Dachner  14:48  
Erin and I went to grad school together at (The) Ohio State. And we go to this annual conference every year, and we kind of took it upon ourselves to start It will be called the Fisher family dinner. So the Ohio State's College of Business is the Fisher College of Business. And we'd get together with the people, we went through the program with, the people who graduated ahead of us, and the current students. And that was one of our favorite events of the conference, other than, you know, going to like sessions and learning about the research. And in terms of networking, and a lot of alumni programs stem from education and this idea that, like, how do we bring in fundraising and right, but in our minds, this was an extension of that we're creating our own network and this value to us, that we also saw available to the organization who's trying to get their current students the best jobs on the market, and that work done with people and get research out. Like this is so valuable. And you know, it was a natural extension of my interest in relationships in the workplace that we've crossed that boundary, and yet, we're still friends, and we're still creating value for each other and for the organization. And so it's our own personal experience that we're like, well, I wonder if organizations do this. And so we started looking into it. And we found a lot in the 90s, about outplacement services and exit interviews. And that was really the extent of it. And now, you know, there's been some recent research on corporate alumni but and Boomerang employees.. 

Erin E. Makarius  16:18  
and Boomerang employees, 

Ali Dachner  16:20  
But nothing that looked at this holistically, like this whole process is a part of talent management. And so we jumped on that opportunity that maybe five years ago, we have a lot of projects in the work. But the Harvard Business Review article was the first one out the door.

Scott Allen  16:34  
Yeah, we'll talk about some of the other projects. What are some other questions you have right now or how are you thinking about this topic?

Erin E. Makarius  16:42  
So I think we've kind of indicated one of, you know, we're interested in the value that employees can bring post-separation. And so one of our projects is really more conceptual in nature of what does that value look like? And how can organizations maximize their return on investment? Essentially, because one of the questions we get sometimes is, "why should we invest in alumni programs or an off-boarding programs when these people are no longer with us?" And you know, part of it is they might stay, and then they don't have the skills and opportunities that they need. But another part of it is looking at this program as a whole. And you know, how you can really earn value once someone's no longer with you as an organization, and how the employee can value from that program as well. And so in talking to alumni program managers now one of the benefits that we see is that it really does help career growth for people that they're finding networking opportunities, they're finding social support. You know, I talked to a person this morning that talked about a mentoring program where they use their alumni to mentor their current employees. So there's a lot of opportunities that you wouldn't otherwise see if you didn't invest in these programs.

Scott Allen  17:55  
It's a perception, I have that, oh, they left they must not have liked it. So there's they're of no value to us. And Ali, I love your framing of I care about you!

Erin E. Makarius  18:07  
We are better friends. 

Ali Dachner  18:11  
We're better, we're better as friends.

Scott Allen  18:12  
We're better as friends. Yes!

Ali Dachner  18:14  
And part of what we're looking at in that theory paper, then is that mechanism of Why? Because that's the question we get right is why would individuals want to be engaged, alumni? Why would they do anything on the organization's behalf? And we really look at that broadening that exchange relationship beyond the point of turnover, what organizations can still do, to engage those alumni, and then how that what those the attitudes, the eliminates might have those residual commitments, that residual identification, that might then lead to them doing things that benefit not only the organizations but themselves.

Erin E. Makarius  18:47  
But I think what you mentioned, Scott, that you know, why should we care is a mindset that a lot of companies have, you know, another way we talked about it is the bitter ex. Right? Some companies are active, you know, mad at people, they see you as a traitor if you leave the organization or are disloyal. And so part of our interest in this research is kind of changing that mindset of this is a reality that people do move on to other jobs, but the process in which you offboard them, and the connections you maintain can be beneficial to you. And so we want to look at why that matters, how it matters, and what we can do to make it more effective.

Scott Allen  19:26  
If it's 4.1 years average tenure, it's happening a lot.

Erin E. Makarius  19:32  
Absolutely. And, you know, some of the statistics on the great net resignation or the turnover, tsunami, whatever people are calling it now are that up to half of the people are looking for a new job right now that, you know, the past year has really made people rethink what's meaningful to them. Where do they want to spend their time? How do they want to spend their time? You know, one of the interesting things about remote work is people said, "I don't have to commute anymore. I really like not having a commute." So thinking about organizations that will allow them that flexibility and working remotely and having the type of work relationship that they want.

Ali Dachner  20:11  
And that's kind of...that's where this idea that you have to think about offboarding before the point of exit. Because of those conversations with people about having stay interviews, why are you staying what could get you to stay? What's important to you now? That could help an organization to offboard people to a better place that fits them better, or it might help with retention? Because there are some things companies can do that are easy changes to retain people that they don't know, they can or should be doing. So really those conversations about where do you want to be in life? what's meaningful to you? You know, do you think that your strengths are being utilized in this organization? Where do you see yourself in five years, even as an employee, not only in the application process, right? Those types of conversations are important for career transitions. And that may mean helping people to stay or it may mean helping to offboard them

Erin E. Makarius  21:03  
Which is an empirical question that we hope to answer in future research!

Scott Allen  21:10  
Wow, that's so cool. Well, my head, my head's kind of all over the place, as I think about this, what do leaders need to know about this topic? Other than I mean, I know that we've touched on some things you might have said. But is there anything that we haven't discussed that you think that that leader really should have top of mind?

Erin E. Makarius  21:33  
I think, you know, we always say this has to be a strategic and intentional process. And so the best place to start is really thinking about what are your goals and starting an onboarding program? What kind of data do you need to get there? And one of the interesting things about this is you might have a lot of that data already many companies have HRIS system or CRM system that you know, is collecting data on employees, and you can kind of look at where employees are going and how to maintain alumni network or a database. And so in many cases, you might already have programs or initiatives in place that can support these types of programs. So if it's something you're thinking about doing, it might just involve starting small really thinking about the point of exit, what are you doing now? Are there ways you could enhance that by recognizing employee contributions more conducting thoughtful exit interviews, making sure that you're using that data to either improve the employee experience or the exit experience and really taking a more proactive approach that allows you to think about and prepare for employee departures and advance and support people along the way?

Scott Allen  22:47  
Ali, anything you want to add?

Ali Dachner  22:48  
Yeah, I mean, it's really similar to what Erin said, but it would be don't ignore the impact that ex-employees might have on your business. And don't assume that it has to be costly, or it has to be super time-consuming, or your business is too small, or your turnover rates are not high enough. You know, we can start small and build up. And you know, the little things matter. And so I'd say don't make assumptions and don't ignore the fact that ex-employees or former employees matter.

Scott Allen  23:20  
Well, and I know in the article you touch on this, this is the last thing I'd like to explore a little bit, but the legal domain of all of this, right, I think because each of us has had that really bad breakup, that tends to be the breakup that we keep in our heads, right. And that's it. And so I think, from a legal perspective, how are organizations thinking about this? Or what do you have to say about that pushback?

Ali Dachner  23:44  
So we started really when we looked into this research, that's where it started, right is what are the legal requirements and like mass layoffs, and the downsizing and the 90s. And the legal piece was such a huge part of it. What we're seeing now and learning now from companies that do this really well, is the focus on inclusivity. And, you know, unless someone was fired for something illegal, people are a part of this alumni program and included and there are criteria for maybe removing them from it. But ultimately, the emphasis is on including people and letting them be a part of the network. And typically those who maybe you wouldn't want to include they're not active anyway. But they're, you know, everyone's invited and everyone's a part of it. That seems to be the focus. So it shifted really way from what are these legal requirements that we have to do to, you know, if we do these things, well, we're meeting legal requirements, but we're going way beyond that.

Scott Allen  24:48  
Erin, anything you want to add?

Erin E. Makarius  24:50  
The only thing I would add to that is that we found that some organizations had non-compete clauses that were really sending this signal that they weren't supportive of career transitions. And so unless there was, you know, confidentiality or proprietary information, we really would suggest that if you don't need it, don't use that non-compete clause because it can reduce the trust that your employees have in you, and really can affect that, that climate or for mobility are the opportunities that people see beyond in their career.

Scott Allen  25:30  
It sounds like you all are carving this very, very cool path of exploration. I can't wait to hear about some of the ROI and, you know, an organization like a McKinsey or some of the big four, what they've seen as you start getting into some of those organizations, and really starting to better understand. I'm assuming that's all in the works.

Erin E. Makarius  25:49  
I mentioned future research. We're in the middle of it. Now. I'm doing interviews, and we are finding out some really interesting practices that they're doing. And, you know, a lot of more companies are moving towards things that we might have in academics, things like sabbaticals and allowing employees to either travel or go work for another organization, giving emeritus status to people after they leave, and really highlighting people's accomplishments and following them throughout their career and saying, hey, guess what, we have people that went on to be CEOs of other organizations, or, you know, there was one company that had I think, four people that became leaders or presidents of different organizations. And so you know, tracking that information and really celebrating employees beyond their tenure in the organization.

Scott Allen  26:41  
I always close these conversations out by asking guests what you're listening to what you're reading, what you're streaming, it could have to do with what we've just discussed, it doesn't have to do with what we've just discussed. So what stands out for each one of you, maybe Ali, we start with you? What have you been consuming?

Ali Dachner  27:03  
I always keep up to date on SHRM articles and HBR articles and what's happening now and how's COVID impacting everything I thought I knew about the work world because that you know, kind of hits, hits the press a little quicker than some of the other things. I'm actually about to start rereading The Alliance by Reid Hoffman, read it years ago. And it's so relevant to what we do and still so insightful, that he's like, I need to go back and reread that. I'm reading a lot about social exchange and workplace relationships. But to your point, a moment ago, we're fully immersed in interviewing companies right now. So most of my thought right now is going towards the interviews that we're lucky enough to be conducting.

Scott Allen  27:47  
Awesome, awesome. Erin, what are you reading, streaming, watching, listening to what stands out?

Erin E. Makarius  27:54  
So on the reading front, I am currently reading The Remote Work Revolution by Tsedal Neeley, I think that's really relevant, and you know, to research interests of mine, as well. So it's a nice synopsis and summary of what we already knew about working virtually, and what we still need to learn. And then my next on my list is think, again, by Adam Grant. I like to I like his work. And so you know, I want to continue and see his most recent book and reading that, what I'm watching Well, as you mentioned, I have a newborn, so not a lot. But we did recently start going through the Marvel universe with our kids in chronological order. And so this weekend, we're watching one of those movies, and he did see the most recent Black Widow. 

Scott Allen  28:44  
That's a commitment to go through all of those! 

Erin E. Makarius
Boy, yes, we've got a year down now. To go. I have about two hours left. I've been listening to it because I've been in the car more lately. So I've been listening to think again, and it's great. It's a great book. You'll enjoy it. And I like how he thinks it's really yeah, it's a really well, I should say good Listen, in this case. Absolutely. And then working virtually remotely. I just had someone this morning say to me, I really, I was speaking with my husband and I was saying, I'm going to repeat that. So she was talking about how she missed her dog. And that's really what she had worked for a year and a half with her dog had her feet and going back to work that that was top of mind for her. So whether it's that or just the convenience of not being in traffic. I mean, it's going to be really interesting. That's a ripe area of exploration in the coming years to see. And just even organizations that I've spoken with that have been very rigid and said, "Nope, everyone's coming back!" Or some others in the community that I've heard of where it's, you know, you have to decide you can be You know, at home, you can be somewhat remote and have an office that you share here some of the time, or you can be fully here. And it's really interesting. I don't know, you all have probably been engaged in conversations with friends, Ali, you have your hand up!

Ali Dachner  30:17  
Following instructions. One of the things about that...that Erin and I talked about, and we've talked to HR professionals about is this idea of the hybrid workplace. And you know, we've done all this research on remote work for years way before the pandemic hit, we knew a lot about it. And of course, that changed the way we think about it a little bit. And there's more data on work from home now. But this hybrid work model is still so newer, and there's not a lot of, you know, scientific research on it, and that's gonna be then a difficult thing to manage. That's going to be top of mind for a lot of HR professionals.

Scott Allen  30:51  
Yeah. Oh, it shifts training and development. It shifts so many different elements of I spoke at Progressive probably four years ago, and it was 40 people in the room and a bunch of people streaming in, and just even that domain from a training and development standpoint, shifted things. So from a management and a leadership standpoint. Wow.

Ali Dachner  31:14  
And teams. 

Scott Allen  31:16  
Yes, yes.

Erin E. Makarius  31:17  
Yeah. It's really the future of work. And so, you know, being researchers, we're really interested in what's going to be most effective in doing this and what's, what's the future going to bring, and how can we manage it in organizations to benefit both employees and the firm?

Scott Allen  31:34  
Well, the two of you are hitting at a great time for all of these conversations. Okay, Ali and Erin, thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you for the work that you do. Take care, be well, we'll have you back when the next HBR article comes out. Is it just going to be one a year now for the coming years!?

Erin E. Makarius  31:54  
We're hoping to broaden our journal and publication list!

Scott Allen  31:59  
Okay, take care of you all.

Ali Dachner  32:01  
Thank you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai