Dr. Steve Mortenson - Dark Gifts of the Pandemic

Dr. Steve Mortenson is an award-winning teacher and researcher. Steve's mission is to help people help themselves by sharing transformative tools for building personal skills and relational effectiveness. He received his Ph.D. in Communication from Purdue University. Recipient of the Excellence in Teaching Award, Dr. Mortenson teaches and publishes at the University of Delaware. He has designed and conducted leadership development seminars and communication workshops for the U.S. State Department’s International Leadership Programs, The National Association for Environmental Management, Delaware Psychological Association, The Horn Institute, and the Blue Hen Leadership Program.


Steve's TED Talks

• Projecting Your Personal Shadow
• Adventure and the Problem of the Hero

A Sample of Steve's Scholarship

• Confronting implicit and benevolent bias in teams
• A fluency of feeling: Exploring cultural and individual differences (and similarities) related to skilled emotional support

Quotes From This Episode

• "One of the things that I’ve asked my students is what new strengths has the pandemic brought out in you? I talk about 'dark gifts of the pandemic' - like, I’ve got a lot more patience than I used to, because I don’t have a choice."
• "The way I talk about supportive confrontation...you have to support the person while you critique their behavior. Otherwise, it’s difficult for them to hear what you’re trying to say."
• On people who are comfortable having difficult conversations - "they don’t get set off, they’re able to listen, they’re more comfortable in their own skin."
• "We need to see that there’s another side to our personality and the things we’re afraid of have a lot of really important potential for us. And that the things that we rely on are also the root of our dysfunctions."
• "What are you good at? But when does it also undermine you?"
• "Authentic anger is - you crossed a line with me - there’s a clear transgression - I can tell you what it is. And I can tell you, this is why I’m mad."
• "Jung said that you can show somebody their shadow, and they’ll kind of deal with it. You show somebody their genius, they’ll fight you every step of the way."
• "I want us to have a fuller understanding of our identities, not just the parts we’re comfortable with."

Resources Mentioned In This Episode

• Book:

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Transcript

Note: Voice to text transcriptions are about 90% accurate. 

Scott Allen  0:01  
Today on Phronesis, I have Steve Mortenson, Steve, we are meeting for the first time for our listeners Steve has on a Chad Smith/Will Ferrell drum battle t-shirt, so I knew I was gonna like him from the very, very beginning. And we talked music for probably the last five minutes before we started. Steve is a professor, Associate Professor of Communication at the University of Delaware. And you have been exploring dark sides shadow sides, and I'm so interested in having that conversation, sir. But maybe share a little bit more about you with our listeners. And I'll learn with them.

Steven Mortenson  0:41  
Okay, sounds great. I'm, I've fallen in love with interpersonal communication. And the study of it by I took my first class actually at junior college. And by the end of the class, I said, "Wow, I not only want to major in this, I want to teach it, you know, it's so much fun." And it's, it's so useful. Like, I think my teacher, one time took us out to just the food court. And he was like, Look, you can tell what everyone's relationship is by how far they stand apart. And that just blew my mind. So I've come at it from that I got my doctorate at Purdue University, and I studied skilled communication, specifically comforting messages. And the sort of the twist that I added to that, is that I looked at it across cultures, I wanted to see if, for example, my two participant groups were students in China, and students in America, and I wanted to see if the culture had any influence on how people what people thought was effective, comforting. Like, what do you say when your friend fails a test? Or what do you say when your friend comes and tells you, "Oh, my parents are getting divorced," or "my partner's leaving me" or whatever? And what was so I was expecting to find a lot of cultural differences. And my advisor at the time, had this whole thing laid out about what's a really good supportive message like, does it deal with the person's emotions? Does it give them some ego support? Tell them they're a good person? And then do you kind of lay in the perspective, right, because a lot of times, we sort of rush in and go, "this is what you got to do" and the person's not done emoting. And so he had laid this my adviser Brant Burleson he laid out this whole thing about what makes a good message. So we tested this across cultures, and we found out this is the thing that I thought was so interesting, we found that everybody rated the highly sensitive messages as the best. And I was surprised because I thought, you know, I thought Americans are much more, "tell me how you feel." We're in China, the cultural rule as well don't rock the boat so much, just you know, let's solve the problem. But what was so interesting is that all the Chinese participants in the American participants said, "yes, these are the best messages." But would you say those things, that's where they varied. And we found that the American women were much more likely to use those really skillful sensitive messages than the American man, or the Chinese men or women. And so and so what it, what it really sort of burned in my brain is that we might know what we're supposed to say. But we're probably not gonna say it. You know, like, I might know how to fight fair. But if you're really grinding my gears, I'm not going to do that skillful stuff. And, you know, I come from communication science, and I'm a trained social scientist, and I studied messages and one of the best ones, but I kept finding that it was our emotional inability to actually use those skilled messages. That was the real problem. And that's where the dark side comes in the idea of the Jungian shadow, this side of ourselves.

Scott Allen  4:03  
So what would an example be of a statement that maybe one of the female participants would have used in your, in your study at Purdue?

Steven Mortenson  4:12  
Well, let's say that you had somebody come into a roommate come in and say, "Oh, my God, my parents just got divorced, and I'm devastated." And so the first thing that the real skillful person would do, would go right to the person's emotions and validate it and "oh my gosh, that must be terrible. You must be so shocked, you know what, what a what a what a world flipper," you know, and you let that person know, "It's like you have a right to feel this way. And you're right, this is really bad." And that might be more than one conversation, you know, given how bad it is. But the after you sort of validating where they're at emotionally. You start giving them ego support. You're saying, "look, you have lots of friends, there are people to support you. You know, you're a strong person you can get, you can get through this people love you, there are people behind you." right? And so now you're giving that person ego support on top of validating their emotions. Then after that, you say, "you know, maybe this is for the best of your parents might have been really unhappy, and you didn't know. And people do get through this, and they come out the other side. And, and they find that they're happier because there's more honesty now going on." So, you know, "this, this is good, this is this has happened, you're going to have to embrace it. But it might be a good thing in the end." But you know, we rush in with the perspective, and we forget all of the emotional parts of it. But even before we say anything, we have to get ourselves in the right emotional frame of mind, you know, because I'm helping somebody confront something right now. So I have to confront it, too. You know, but it's so interesting, I was talking to one of my Chinese participants, and they would say, you know, my father, if my friend said that my father had his father passed away, I would just go sit with him. That's all we would do. And I thought, you know, that sounds very effective to its social support, you know, you're being there. So that's, that's the kind of skill message, you know, that we're looking for, you know, and when I talked to people in different leadership positions, I've talked in environmental engineers, and physicians, and educators, and we talk a lot about confrontation. And the way I talk about supportive confrontation, you know, with my students, like, you got to support the person while you critique their behavior. Otherwise, it's difficult for them to hear what you're trying to say.

Scott Allen  6:50  
Well, that's it's and it's so interesting, how just even the order in which those pieces occur makes a big difference. Because if I come out of the gates with, well, "they were miserable anyway, so it's probably for the better."

Steven Mortenson  7:06  
Right, right, or go, or you get the typical guy response, "Dude, that sucks. Let's go get a disco to get a beer." And that guy, the other person is like, "what?" So yeah, timing is a big part of this. So sequencing.

Scott Allen  7:20  
Yeah. Okay, so sequencing and timing. Now, when you've worked with physicians talk a little bit about the sequencing of some of the messages that they have to deliver because I imagine in that in that role, and depending on the context in which you are training physicians and working with physicians, but talk a little bit about that space, I find that fascinating.

Steven Mortenson  7:41  
Well, the people that I've done, I started doing training and consulting at some of the local hospitals here. And it was with pediatricians, and they're kind of like the sweethearts, you know, of the medical profession, because we're with kids. But their problem is, how do you get the parents to change things? Like how do you tell a parent that look, one of the reasons your child's like on the edge of diabetes is the way that they're being fed and the way that you're cooking. And these physicians would be like, you know, the parents would get mad, they wouldn't take the information. And so it was sort of like, how do we get people who are conflict avoidant, to realize that no, I can actually tell this person something without them getting defensive. And so we talked about ways to do that. But we also talked a lot about just being conflict-avoidant in the first place, and where that comes from, and how that's part of the shadow that we sort of dragged with us, you know, from childhood, like, I avoided conflict to stay safe, you know, I didn't want to get in trouble. Now, the other issue with doctors is, you know, again, can't confrontations a fight or flight thing? And so a lot of physicians get angry. If someone disagrees with them. It's not that you're saying I'm misinformed, you're saying that I'm wrong, which is so they equate being misinformed with being ashamed. So they get very, they can get very defensive, like if a patient asked too many questions, or if they come in with alternate information. So it's interesting to work with them. In those sorts of contexts. The environmental engineers, it was a lot about how do you tell people really bad news? Like the law just changed, we got to spend more money, we got to work differently. And you don't really have any power or authority, you know, you're there as more of a consulting role. So it's like how do you deliver and give advice that that people probably really don't want to hear? You know, and make that palpable and effective?

Scott Allen  9:50  
Yeah. Steve in your work. Have you come across people who are just naturally comfortable with difficult conversations naturally comfortable with that role? I mean, it's really, really interesting because as a leader, you are...the role comes with difficult conversations. It's just baked into the role. And of course, we see in families and we see in any number of other contexts associations, that there's conflict, places of worship, there's conflict, there are difficult conversations, disagreements. When you come across people who are comfortable in that space, are there any themes you've noticed over the years that that kind of emerged for you? Because I am really interesting. Oh, yeah,

Steven Mortenson  10:36  
I'd say. And again, it all goes back to emotions. It's like, what, how reactive are you? You know, how emotional some people are incredibly emotionally reactive. In fact, there's a great test out there called the Big Five, you can actually take online, and that's, that's, that's the little variable there. It's like, you know, can you roll with things? Or do you respond with a fight or flight? And so I think that some people have a little bit more natural equanimity. And then when you sort of put on some strategic stuff on top of that, it really makes them effective. It's like when they realize like, Okay, I'm not gonna let this person roll on me, but I'm also going to try and calm them down or hold the line, right, and in a, in a nondefensive way for them. So yeah, it comes down a lot to emotions, and, and, and getting in the right emotional frame, before you have the confrontation, or as you see it starting to heat up. It's like, Okay, I have to take a step back emotionally, and try and see a bigger picture here. But that's mostly what I see as a theme, is it there, they don't get set off, they're able to listen, generally, they're more comfortable in their own skin, you know, the more confident and comfortable I feel about myself, the more comfortable I'm going to be with you. And likewise, if it's the opposite way. So yeah, those are sort of the themes that I see. And then on top of that, there's this kind of, I want to see things happen a certain way, I'm going to step up, you know, if I'm an emerging leader, and I see a bunch of chaos around me, I'm going to step in and fill the void. So there's this impulse that goes along with this, this non-reactivity to emotions that I see, you know, with people that have been, especially students that naturally fall into those roles.

Scott Allen  12:33  
Because I see it happen, oftentimes, the avoidance of conflict, or the avoidance of the difficult conversation, especially with a peer, especially in courses around leadership, where we talk about conflict, and we talk about challenges. And okay, so let's jump into the research that you've done on kind of the shadow sides. And I, I'm interested in this, because I want us to get to also a place of a conversation around how why this impacts leaders. And so let's go there, let's go there. Let's talk about that research.

Steven Mortenson  13:09  
Let's let me tell you a little bit about just a brief sketch of what we're talking about when we mean the shadow. And this originally came from Carl Jung and you know, the folks that have written based on his scholarship, and it's really it's a child's defense mechanism is what it is. It's something that we do to protect our self-esteem. So and we want to do this to fit in with our families and to feel like we're connected to our role models and the people that love us. So for example, you know, if I'm in a fam, this is a common question I asked in classes and within with different situations, like "how many people here are helpful people?" and a bunch of people raise their hand, I'm like, you like helping the people taught you to help your grandparents? You know, when they look at my grandchild, they're so helpful, you know, you get a lot of good stuff from that. But now, how many of those same people, "you can't say no." When someone asks you for a favor, and you know, you don't have time, you know, you don't have the resources. Or even better yet, how many of those helpful people never asked for help? They just sit there and drown. You know, and then their friends are like, you know, you could ask me three months ago, and I want to help you out. Right? And the point of that is that when you're in a very altruistic and helpful family, we tend to put our own needs into the shadow, those might get us in trouble. Right? Those might get us criticized. So we're like, Well, no, I'm not going to ask for help. Because I don't want any whenever you ask for personal Why don't you ask for help? I don't want to be a burden. It's like well, I wonder why you heard that from right What? Or the same thing like you got to help people and the thing behind, the fear behind the helpful person is that - "I'm not good enough. I'm I own, so I need to do value-added with you, to help you, and then you'll love me," then you will, then you will like me the way I want you to. so helpful. People put risky, socially risky parts of themselves in the shadow to stay safe. The same thing with very polite and kind people, they won't speak their truth. And so this is a child's defense mechanism. But it becomes an obstacle to adulthood, we have to be honest. And we have to be polite, we have to take care of ourselves, so we can take care of other people. But what I play this game within the leadership seminar is called the Yes/No game. And it's where one person says, Yes, the other person says no, and then we sort of up the ante to I have it I want it. Right, and then they switch places, and then we up the ante to I don't think that's correct. No, I think I'm right. And what happens is people start getting all these emotions. So sometimes when they say, well, well, I have it, I want the video. So why just want to give it to them, then why? Because it makes me feel guilty. Why? Because that's how I grew up. Right? That's my shadow is holding the line. So we have a shadow around these things that we were afraid of that were socially risky, our culture has a shadow, every relationship has a shadow, the marriage has a shadow, there's all the stuff we don't talk about so that we can stay married. You know, sometimes you'll see brothers and sisters, they'll kind of dish on dad. So they'll triangulate against the parents, so they don't have to talk about the things in their relationship. So that the point of having a shadow is not to get rid of it. Because we actually need the stuff that's in there. It's full of really important things like how to be honest and our or, like, if I grew up in a fighter, sort of, you know, like, you got to fight for your opinion. You got to, like, always fight for what I want. I'll never know how to back down.

Scott Allen  17:05  
Yeah. Yeah. What are some other themes? I'm really, really interested? What are, some other examples of shadows that you often see, when working with others? This is really, really cool.

Steven Mortenson  17:17  
Cool, absolutely glad. Um, well, there are people that are like, this is how I understand it is that our personality, our strengths, and our shadows are two sides of the same coin. 

Scott Allen  17:28  
Yes.

Steven Mortenson  17:30  
So if I'm a really organized person, and I like getting things done, and my friends are like, we're gonna go to Mexican food now my good I'm on board, then the last minute that like, no, we're doing Thai. And I'm like, you know, what do you said, you were doing this thing, and you messed up my plan. So people that are really organized, have flexibility in their shadows, people that are really enthusiastic, sometimes they get very anxious about it, the sort of enthusiastic, merrymaker becomes kind of the rush hound always looking for, like, where's the party, where's the party, and then they and then they also start to realize, like, you know, I'm not I don't really know where I'm going. Like, my life has been a kind of a series of good times, but the purpose parts not there. When we talk about people that really love things, love people and love, like, they like to restore things, they like, great wine, the addict becomes the dark side of that we get addicted to people. We've been now we're sort of, like encouraged, like binge the show, you know, it's sort of we're, we're kind of encouraged in our that our media addiction now and again, with COVID, and everything, it's sort of amplified. There's, you know, sometimes we look at something really negative, like the outlaw kind of person the rebel. But sometimes, like, again, as a teacher, at least for me, they're sort of a natural element of subversiveness in it, because you're trying to change and transform people. So you have to sort of showing them, you have to sort of break some rules. And I think sometimes the outlaw brings this great sense of freedom to people. I had some students at the end of their senior year and they came up to me, they're like, we've never been bad. And I'm like, I know, you've just, you guys just don't break any rules and like, well, we don't want to graduate college without doing something. And I, my Provost, already heard about this, so, I guess I'm off the hook. But I told him the door of the roof to the building was opened, like logical on top of the building for 30 seconds, and you guys can just be like outlaws and renegades. They came downstairs and their faces were flushed. They're like, "Oh my god, it was so exciting." You know, like, now you can sneak some candy into the movie theaters and be really bad, you know? So, you know, we need to be able to see that there's another side to our personality and that the things we're afraid of having a lot of really important potential for us. And that the things that we rely on are also the root of our dysfunctions. So that's kind of where the leadership piece comes in with me, I was really resonated with, I think it's Barbara Kellerman, and the Crisis of Leadership. And she said that the problem with leadership, especially strengths-based leadership is that it's just too narrow, and then strength can become toxic. And people don't develop new strengths. And they also don't look at what's impeding them. And so when I look at, like, my, my program of supportive confrontation is called Strengths and Shadows. And so it's like, all right, what are you good at? But when does it also undermine you? And there are all sorts of a personality test and some different sorts of materials I use, I have some cards that I actually use, with people like the three of this deck of cards that my wife and I, and we use these with, and you can play different games, because one of the other problems with personality tests, is they say, "You're this. You're an extrovert," you know. And the way I like to come at it is like, well, who are you with certain people, like my strengths, in relationally, are going to change when I'm with one of my kids, versus talking to one of my colleagues. And so I like this more agile approach. And it's much more relational. But that's sort of how the shadow piece comes into it. The other big part of it is that we project our shadows onto people that set us off like, like, think of someone. Think of somebody, like think of somebody and we all have these people because we're human. And they're not trying to irritate us, but oh, my gosh, you know, they just get under our skin immediately.

Scott Allen  22:01  
I have five people in mind.

Steven Mortenson  22:03  
Yes. Right. You're probably sheltering with them. I'm going to guess! 

Scott Allen  22:07  
Actually, those people are pretty, those are good!

Steven Mortenson  22:09  
That's good. See, that's my situation, too. I've got like my two grown sons and me and my wife and I thank God, we're good now. It's those other people.

Scott Allen  22:17  
We have Our moments that aren't good, but holistically, we're very good. Yeah, yeah,

Steven Mortenson  22:22  
absolutely. Well, what happens is that we fought we when we run into somebody that shows us a piece of our shadow, it sets us off. And we're like, I'm I, you know, that guy is greedy. I mean, sometimes I can be greeted with that guy's greedy. You know, I know I'm lazy. But oh, my God, look at my neighbor over there in the hammock and look at his yard. Oh, my God, what a slob. Right? And so, because I don't want to see that side of myself. And it reminds me now, and again, this might also be this person reminds me of a bully. Right? I might be in a conference room with my colleagues, and somebody said, somebody says something, and it just reminds me of bullying. And suddenly I'm in the schoolyard. You know, I tell my students this, and then thankfully, it happened a long time ago. But I tell them, generally, if you're in a faculty meeting, or a professional meeting, and you suddenly find yourself standing, and you're leaning on the table, and your volumes really up, that's not going to be a good day. 

Scott Allen  23:24  
Yeah, yeah. 

Steven Mortenson  23:25  
And so it's how do we not get set off like that? So that the projection part is really the most important piece of the confrontation and the leadership piece for me, because it's knowing that certain people are going to be more of a challenge for me, and having my shadow out in front of me of saying, Okay, now this guy sets me off, because of the way he talks. And because he shows me some sides, myself, I'm not too happy about either. So I'm going to have my game on with this guy emotionally, behaviorally, and in terms of the messages that I want to use. So another really interesting form of projection is when people get away with stuff that we were afraid to do. Like, if you see somebody and you both disapprove, and yet envy them, you know, like, you would never do that, like, I can't believe they got away with that, you know, that rat. That's, that's, that's a kind of projection as well. And like, I, you know, I, I've been doing a lot of this with my students during COVID. Because it's...things set us off. We read things in the newspaper, and we can't believe it. You know, we're living with our parents in a new way. We're living with our siblings. And it's hard. And so a lot of my I had a winter session students who were all very, they're very gung ho because their winter session, they're doing extra stuff. And they project a lot of laziness onto their siblings. They're so lazy, they're so lazy and I go, do you have a hard time relaxing? And they're like, yes. Like, if the more you relax, the less you're gonna, you know, throw shade at them. And then they start to see that like, the more I speak up, the less my over-talkative friend bothers me. You know, so the more I meet that need, Mike and some of them are so creative about meeting their needs, and it's, and I'll tell him, like, I don't know how to meet your needs, you got to do it. You know, it's like, and they figure it out. And like, you know, when I learned to relax, I'm not so down on my, my brother or sister. You know, when I learned that, I think about how freaked out my parents are right now, because of the situation. It doesn't bother me as much what I get right done with my homework. And they say, can you do some chores, you know, and so it just helps them, they learn how to do some good self-talk, before they go off.

Scott Allen  25:53  
Let's talk a little bit about that. You've said some really, I think important things. But I would love to sequence some of this. Because every one of us can learn, develop, and grow. I would love to have a view into the relationship with you and your wife because that must be fascinating, right? Your shadows showing up stop it Steve, you know? Go ahead.

Steven Mortenson  26:16  
No, sometimes we'll go projecting. And they'll be like, ah, all right. Yeah, you're probably right and probably projecting Go ahead. I'm

Scott Allen  26:26  
So my wife's version of that, and she's brilliant at this. But sometimes if we're, we walk a couple of hours a day, so we're walking a lot, and we're with each other a lot. And it's hilarious. Because if we get into a little snippy type situation, she'll us look at me now like, you know, wizard, like and say "now, how is that statement going to get us where we want to be?" I have to sheepishly say it's not, you know, you know, trying to

Steven Mortenson  26:55  
felt good, though.

Scott Allen  26:57  
get myself out, right? How do you train people to be....I imagine awareness and metacognition and observing our own processing our own triggers our own buttons, and is a piece of this. But it's definitely it's complex, it's a higher level, a higher, higher level of thinking, I would imagine, Steve,

Steven Mortenson  27:21  
it is, it's interesting now how it can be broken down. And when I have students, especially students when they write down these different steps that they used to get through a confrontation, it sticks, but these are the basic steps, you got the first one right off the bat...it's awareness, one of the things we talk about is authentic and inauthentic anger. And authentic anger is you crossed a line with me there's a clear transgression, I can tell you what it is. And I can tell you, this is why I'm mad, right? But so many other times like you simply get snippy. And there's no transgression. So sometimes I might get really angry at somebody, and I'm like, okay, I can't figure out what line they actually crossed here. I'm just irritated, you know? And it's like, All right, I'm probably being set off, it's probably set my shadow off. So and that's one of the first things we look at. It's like if you're angry, is there a line? The other one is inauthentic guilt. And that's like it. This is one that you know, as a couple of parents, right? My wife and I talked about it a lot. And she'll say, I feel really bad about this. And I'll say, did you make a deal? Did you make an agreement with someone? And she's like, no, and I'm like, you got to make them break an agreement to feel guilt. Otherwise, sympathy makes sense. Or I wish I could help this person. But to implicate me, because I didn't have the ability or the time to help. Is bad. It's just wrong. So we'll say like, you know, is it authentic guilt? Is it inauthentic guilt? Does your fear have an object? Like what exactly like, Is there a big black rabid dog running down the street at you? Like now I'm afraid? Or is it more like anxiety, which, which is just like, I'm uncertain about what's going to happen? Right? And so that's part of it. And then the other part is, name and claim your shadow. What part of your shadow, like, I like to be a creative person, right? I like to teach different things and come up with different types of materials. I love all that. But when someone doesn't understand my work, they go well, I don't really get that. I'm just like, Well, that's because you're just an idiot, you know, so I will, you know, so there's a victim to the creative personality. And there's also a little piece I think of the creative personality that thinks like, there's something that's a little wrong with me I just don't quite fit with everybody else. So it's very easy for us to feel victimized. So like an example. My wife and my daughter, I'm out and hanging out my wife and have tea and she said, Oh, me and Chloe are going to go watch Gilmore Girls upstairs and I was like, well huffy, huffy. You know, I got all upset about it. And then I called myself out of like, Alright, don't fall into your victim. They're just there, you're not being abandoned, your not being persecuted, they're just going to have some girl time. And then you

Scott Allen  30:22  
really don't even want to watch Gilmore Girls.

Unknown Speaker  30:25  
I've seen all of them about four times now. I mean, I was the one that made the coffee. I was like Luke with those two. So I've done my time. But yeah, but it's like so first is awareness, and then his name it and claim it. What part of your shadow is really being activated now? Is it that you've had this sort of guilty drudge that feels bad for not doing a favor? Are you the sort of victimized creative person? Does someone just making you angry, like, you know, the shadow of kind of the hero, the straight talker is the callous and cruel person? You know, like, I'll ask people that like to say, Do you ever give advice like, yeah, I go to people cry afterward and get mad at you. They're like, yeah, and I'm like, okay, there's something to that. So you name it and claim it. And then you do some self-talk. You're like, I'm not 10 anymore. I can tell people what I really think. And they're not going to get mad at me. You know...I'm no one's abandoning me just my victim. I think in a nutshell, it's that I want people I want to try to teach my students and myself as much as possible to have a conscious relationship with my emotions. Yeah, I love it.

Scott Allen  31:46  
I love that phrasing.

Unknown Speaker  31:48  
That's what it is. We have a very unconscious relationship. Our fear talks to us, and we just listened to it all day long. And we don't answer back or like, sometimes I'll ask my Phil, like, what do you want from me? Like, what do you want? And most of the time, it feels like I just don't want you to be embarrassed. And then I'm like, Oh, dude, I'm so much. I'm good friends with embarrassment, we go back a long way. It's gonna be fine. Just relax, you know? And so it's talking back to those feelings, and naming and claiming that shadow. And then the last thing is, okay, now what do you want to do? Do you need to? And for me that that question is answered by Keep your mouth shut. When I'm activated, it's like, just don't do or say anything right now. Because you're not you're kind of in a fight or flight mode. And what we want to do is to seek assistance instead of fight and or take care of it instead of fight. If I can't, you know, so it's like, so sometimes it's been quiet, sometimes it apologizes, sometimes it's eating some humble pie. You know, my colleague who's eating up all the oxygen in the room is a lot like me. So I'm not I shouldn't be. Because this is when we project on people, we make it harder to see them. Like we sort of like take, we sort of look at them through, you know, crap colored glasses, like we take our own arrogance and stick it to them. And so now they're doubly arrogant. And so now we have all this license to treat them much poorer than we probably should. So we're not going to see them well. So some of the research that I've done is on teamwork and projection. And I found that when people project more on their teammates, when they look at them, like they're getting away with something, or they see them as representing something like the question is that my parents saw my project, team members, they wouldn't they would not like them. Like they were they're sort of like the bad kids. And the more that people project on their team members, the more they fight, the more they take over projects, the more they free ride, you know, all of that. Roommates, same thing. We did a roommate study, the more the roommates, and thank what we found out most people like the roommates, which was good, but there, yeah, but the ones that projected on their roommates fought more, blame the roommate more. And we didn't ask them about the roommate. We just asked them how much What do you think of people in general? So we had a general measure and then a specific measure. And it was interesting. Now the latest stuff we've been I've been working on is can you fix it? So what happens if you take people through an intervention? Does it do something? And one of the things that we found with I worked with the Blue Hen Leadership Program here at the UD campus a lot like Tony -  Tony Middlebrooks, our mutual friend who introduced us Yes, yeah. Thank you, Tony super shout-out to Middlebrooks, absolutely. We've found that if we did take them through an intervention, that they fought less with their teammates, they didn't take over projects as much. They didn't freeride. And they generally had a better view of their teammates. Now, the interesting thing was, the general projection between the control and experimental group didn't change. But the teammate projection changed. So we taught them not to project on specific people. And then that influenced their teamwork dynamics.

Scott Allen  35:39  
So much fun, Steve, so interesting, so fascinating. And I love how you introduceD this whole topic that we've been on for about 35 minutes now, of just the fascinating dimension of human communication, whether it's verbal or nonverbal. I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, it's just, it's a fascinating space, it just is. And I imagine in some of them, when I'm projecting on to someone else, it's also probably much more difficult to see what I own in the dysfunctional system, or what I own in the situation, because I'm externalizing it and it makes it easier for me to have to ignore what I need to work on, right? 

Steven Mortenson  36:23  
Oh that's exactly it. Exactly. I don't have to do anything you do. what's so interesting, too, is that from a very specific leadership projection or perspective, we also project our potential on people. It's almost like there are two kinds of heroes out there. There's that hero that you see, and you're like, Oh, my gosh, that's amazing. I want to do that. How did you do that? I want to do that. So they motivate us, you know, out of a static space, so an active space. But then other heroes, we look at them and go, wow, they're so cool. I could never do that. And so we literally project our potential onto them. You know, Jung said that you can show somebody their shadow, and they'll kind of deal with it. You show somebody their genius, they'll fight you every step of the way. So it's like, we're afraid of that because we know we got to suffer for it. And people might mock us and say, Who do you think you are to do that? So when we're leaders, and we have people looking up to us, they are projecting their potential onto us. And you know what it feels like to be a role model, it's kind of heavy, you kind of have to live up to it. And we know that if, like, if I damage someone's admiration, it's not only like, if I'm callous to someone who looks up to me, it doesn't only damage my relationship with them, it damages their potential to grow. And we kind of know that. So one of the challenges of being a leader is I have to carry someone's potential for them until they're ready for it. And then I need to give it back. Let's see. Now you know you do all you know how to do all these things. You know you don't need me. And you can tell when you've done it. Because the person doesn't quite have that hero-worship around you anymore. They're more casual. They're like, Oh, yeah, that was good. We had it. We had that was great. Thanks for doing that. And you're like, wait, I was a big deal. Like what happened here. Right But that's that that moment is when you're like, No, I did my job. You know, now they don't need me that's, you know, you probably see it with parenting. You know, I know do you have kids? 

Scott Allen  38:41  
We have twin girls that are 10. And then our son is just about to turn 13. So seventh grade is where we are.

Steven Mortenson  38:49  
Yeah, yeah. You're right in the middle. I got 23, 21, and 20. Okay. Okay. So and that so now they're very casual. They're like, Oh, yeah, Dad, you're so smart. We know. Yeah, whatever. Yeah, more wisdom. Thank you. Thank you. It's

Scott Allen  39:04  
Thanks, Steve. 

Steven Mortenson  39:07  
exactly. So I'm like, Okay, my job is getting closer and closer to being done. You know, with that, that means we did it.

Scott Allen  39:18  
Steve, I, first of all, I want to do this again. Steve, where can people learn more? about this topic, many sources, either that you've written or that others that would help people.

Steven Mortenson  40:08  
I do have a couple of TED Talks. Awesome. So there's that I do I do. We did these to the University of Delaware. And they were gracious enough to let me do it not once or twice. And so two of the topics we talked about today, the shadow being set off. And then projecting is one called Owning Your Personal Shadow. And the other one about the sort of potential projection, right, the hero part is the hero problem. And those are both TEDx talks that we did at the University of Delaware. I'm trying to think I have I have most of my stuff is very social sciency. Right now, I'm kind of in the middle of writing a leadership book. There is one chapter though. It's on it's actually on for women leaders on how to talk about benevolent sexism skillfully in teams. And I'm trying to remember what the book is for that. I'm sure the editors are going to be really pleased - I can't remember that one. I'll get that. I'll get that back to you, though. I'll send you the link to that.

Scott Allen  41:17  
Well, and as soon as you mentioned, Carl Jung, I think of very thick, dense work. That's at least my impression, right? Have you come across a really accessible resource for people you explore some of his work?

Steven Mortenson  41:34  
Yeah, I'd say we've had some great luck with American Junians. And one of my favorite is a writer and analyst called Robert Johnson. And not only does he write really accessible books, but they're also thin. You can read them in a couple of days. I've given these to undergraduates and they've loved them. A fantastic book about relationships in the shadows called Romancing the Shadow by Connie's week and Steve Wolfe. Again, really accessible book. James Hollis is another great writer, American Jungian, James Hillman. Although he's a little, he's a little bit more on the academic side. But Hollis and Johnson,  they're great writers too. So yeah.

Scott Allen  42:28  
Awesome. Awesome. Well, and so we've almost been in this for about a year. It's February 11. I was around March 11. When? What have you been reading, streaming, listening to what's caught your eye in recent months? 

Steven Mortenson  42:47  
Well, the things that I'm really interested in right now, it's so funny, I was doing a helping my son with a, a paper on philosophy. And he was going to look at the stoics versus nature. And I said, Why don't you look at in terms of the pandemic, because we're sort of doing a theater smackdown or a theory smackdown. And the stoics ended up really, really winning that one. So I'm looking at and talking about leadership during the pandemic. And one of the things that I've asked my students and myself is what new strengths have the pandemic brought out in you? Like, what are some things like I talked about dark gifts of the pandemic, like, I've got a lot more patients than I used to, because I don't have a choice. I am much more compassionate towards people than I used to be. I used to want to complain and say poor me, and now it's like poor me...don't have it that bad. There are other people out there struggling. I appreciate things like my mail carrier and the folks that work, like day and night at Amazon, and all these people that I don't think I had a whole lot of awareness of before. And now I really realize how valuable they are. You know, one of my window students do strengths and shadows, one of the questions we've asked now is like, what's the new strength that's been brought out and you some people like I'm much more of the merrymaker Now, I want to make people happy and make jokes or, like for me, it's like, I'm my sense of responsibility really sort of skyrocketed. It's, you know, when when it was time for me to tell my sons that they weren't going to campus. It's like, now we're doing this. And I was ahead. We, my wife, and I were way ahead of the curve of the school of what we're like, nope, in a month, they're all going to close. So. So I'm finding that people like Brene Brown, who work with vulnerability and talk so well about it, you know, right now, we have so much polarization in our culture. And one of the things that Brene Brown said that I thought was great was "just because someone's telling you a story that you don't agree with, it's important to realize it means a lot to them." She says she says things, and part of me is like, Wow, that's great. And then part of me is like, oh, man, why didn't I think of that? Like, she saw a scooping me with her giant, you know, the juggernaut of scientists and researchers. Yeah. 

Scott Allen  45:25  
Well, I have a suggestion for you. This is probably the third time I've suggested it on the podcast. So listeners are going to be tired of me saying it. But have you watched In and of Itself on Hulu? I have. Give me two minutes. Well, I don't want to ruin it for listeners.

Steven Mortenson  45:42  
Well, no, I can talk about it without giving it away. My observations were in that show. Where, at first, when it opened, I was just so drawn into all of this discussion about identity. Because again, I think identity is a really important part of what I am trying to research and get people to become aware of because I want us to have a fuller understanding of our identities, not just the parts we're comfortable with. So I really loved that. And as the story and the performance sort of opened, I was so caught up in the personal stories of the performer, and how raw it was, and how candid it was, and brave, and how it was so beautifully tied into these other visual things that happened on stage with him. Because you know, that sort of performance, usually I'd be like, what? Okay, I guess I'll watch that. And this just blew me away. But the end of it, I thought was fabulous because, you know, again, with this idea of illusion, or whatever you want to call it, he was able to conjure these moments of absolute authenticity, and emotional reality with people. Like he made them...what they felt was real. And so I thought it was such a beautiful mix of, you know, again, because of, you know, art is the is a good lie. You know, like, like, I tell my students, it's like, you know, do you guys ever seen Saving Private Ryan or like, and I'm like, didn't it feel real? Like, yeah, like, nobody died, though. But it conveyed the horror of war. You know, so good art uses lies, to tell the truth. And I really think that In and Of itself, just like, nail that, you know, with the true stories, and yet the things that we weren't quite sure were real, you know, so skillfully woven, so I was glad they put it, they put it on television,

Scott Allen  48:00  
Oh so you know, so you saw it actually in the theater?

Steven Mortenson  48:02  
No, no, I Oh, I wish I wish I wish. I know. I thought it was fabulous. I thought Frank Oz did a great job directing it.  I was really I think I heard about it watching the Colbert Report. Or Steven Colbert was like we produce this thing. And I'm like, Huh, I thought like, I gotta see this, you know? So I'm imagining you really enjoyed it, too.

Scott Allen  48:26  
I did. I did. I've watched it a couple of times. Now. It's one of those that I've gone back to. And just to it's a thinker,

Steven Mortenson  48:35  
that's for sure. Yeah. What do you think pulls it that pulls you back into it?

Scott Allen  48:38  
I, I don't...I can't consciously say it right now. It's he brought my emotional state to a point where it doesn't happen often. And so I'm, in some ways, I wasn't even hearing some of the stories the actual story I was so drawn into other components that were happening. So for instance, the reaction of someone reading a letter. I didn't even really remember how he had set any of that up. So part of it was me just trying to go back. Speaking of Will Farrell, oh, it's like one of those movies, you can watch it six or seven times and hear new jokes, right. But this, this, it was just a really interesting and, and I teared up the second time, even though I knew what was coming because to your point, you see these just very authentic emotions of, of all kinds of emotions, right? Yeah. 

Steven Mortenson  49:48  
Along with our own sort of like complete bafflement. Yeah. As to how this is even happening. Yeah, I think that really gets to it too, is there's this sense that it's getting harder for us to feel things at a peak. I think my son was taking a physical on the doctor's skills. Well, are you depressed? I mean, like more than most people like more than regular depressed? You know, it's like when you ask somebody like how are you? It's like, well, you know, what do you want to hear? My response is on making it work. Yeah, no, that's making it work. But I think that's why that show was so stunning is that...Oh my gosh, it's just so nice to feel something like that, again to feel it strongly,

Scott Allen  50:37  
You know, him modeling the vulnerability and to perform that 500 and some odd times. That's Steve, we got to do this again, please. 

Steven Mortenson  50:50  
Yeah, definitely.

Scott Allen  50:51  
This is fun. I want to continue this conversation. And I really, really appreciate your time today. Again, we owe a thank you to Tony Middlebrooks. I'm so happy to know you to have met you and to hear about your work. Thanks for the work that you do, do, helping each of us better understand ourselves and be better prepared to serve others and successfully. I mean, that's because leadership is hard work. It's difficult. It's challenging. And I have great respect. Thank you, sir.

Steven Mortenson  51:23  
Well, thank you. It's such a joy being on the show. And I was happy back again. So Absolutely. Thank you too. 

Okay.

Scott Allen  51:30  
Be well!

Be well. 

Transcribed by https://otter.ai