Scaling Leadership with Mark Shapiro

Mark Shapiro is an American-born Canadian baseball executive, born April 3, 1967, in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Shapiro joined the Cleveland Indians in 1991, rising from an entry-level role to general manager (2001) and then team president (2010). During his 24 years there, the Indians won six division titles and two AL pennants. He was named Sporting News Executive of the Year twice, in 2005 and 2007.

In 2015 he became president and CEO of the Toronto Blue Jays, succeeding Paul Beeston. He hired Ross Atkins as GM, oversaw renovations to the Dunedin player development complex and Rogers Centre, and signed a five-year extension in December 2025. Under Shapiro, the Blue Jays have reached the postseason five times, including their first AL pennant in 32 years in 2025.

He's also served on several MLB committees, helping introduce the Automated Ball-Strike System, instant replay, and the pitch clock. Personally, he's a dual US-Canadian citizen, has two children, and was portrayed by actor Reed Diamond in the 2011 film Moneyball.

A Few Quotes From This Episode

• “Don't worry about being charismatic. Worry about caring deeply. Don't worry about being a super decision maker. Obsessively focus on the best process and prioritization and understanding leverage.”
• "The best leaders lead a decision-making process. I'm very rarely making a decision, and if I am, we have a good chance to make a bad decision.”
• “If you had to say what is the single most important value to building an elite, best-in-class organization, I would say open-mindedness, is where you have to start.”

Resources

• Book: Team of Teams: New Rules of Engagement for a Complex World by General Stanley McChrystal 
• Book: Good to Great by Jim Collins 

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

• The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. Attend The Global Conference in Toronto, October 28-31.

About  Scott J. Allen

• Website
• Weekly Newsletter: Practical Wisdom for Leaders

My Approach to Hosting

• The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.

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Transcript

Scott Allen: [00:00:00] Thanks for checking in from wherever you are in the world. Welcome to Practical Wisdom for Leaders, the official podcast of the International Leadership Association. I'm your host, Scott J. Allen, and each week I invite executives and scholars to explore the real work of leadership. This podcast is part of a global community committed to helping leaders thrive.

If you find these conversations valuable, connect with me on LinkedIn, subscribe to the podcast, and share this episode with others. To learn more about me, visit www.scottjallen.net. 

Mark Shapiro: And now, here's today's episode. 

Scott Allen: Good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world.

I am Scott Allen, and I am your host. And, uh, you know what? This is the official podcast of the International Leadership Association. And so always we have to thank the ILA for their sponsorship on what it is we're doing here on Practical Wisdom for Leaders. Today, a special guest, Mark Shapiro, [00:01:00] and he is the president and CEO of the Toronto Blue Jays.

Began his career in Cleveland with the Indians at the time, the Guardians now, and made his way to Toronto around 2015, if I'm not mistaken, sir. 

Mark Shapiro: That's right. 24 years in Cleveland, and now my 11th year. It's hard to believe. 

Scott Allen: Ugh. Well, I am so excited. Obviously, we've talked a little bit before we started recording.

Love baseball, been to a number of parks, but that's not our topic today. Today- ... we're jumping into leadership and your perspective on that topic. Obviously, you have worked at the highest levels, and, uh, so I'm just excited for the conversation. Anything listeners should know about you before we jump in, sir?

Mark Shapiro: Wow, that's a, a very open-ended way to start. Um, I mean, I think, um, leadership is certainly, you know, baseball's certainly a great laboratory for leadership, uh, just because of the blend of the objective and the subjective and so much focus externally. Um, and I think one of the things that's [00:02:00] most interesting to kinda think about when you're talking to someone who's led in the sports arena is how do you lead in a public, you know, with so much emotion around you and so much, uh, you know, so much free advice on a daily basis?

How do you handle that? And, uh, and, and even, and sustain that over a period of time just from a, from your own, you know, from the pressure, uh, and the challenges of just the tangible wins and losses that come with working in professional sports. So lots of great topics from a leadership perspective, sustainability, uh, philosophically, you know, all those different things.

But, uh, yeah, I'm excited to, I'm excited to spend a little time talking leadership. It's a core part of who I am as a person. 

Scott Allen: Oh, well, a lot of free advice. Yes, that is very, very true. I think, I forget, w- it may have been a baseball player, but it was something to the effect of, "How would you like it if in your job every time you made a mistake everyone booed?"

You know? Like... 

Mark Shapiro: Well, there aren't many... Uh, regardless, there are certainly bigger [00:03:00]corporations and bigger entities out there. But there are not many jobs that when you get a cup of coffee, when you get a haircut, when you pick up the kids at school, every single person's got some piece of advice for you, so I always laugh about that.

Scott Allen: Whether it's 

Mark Shapiro: Getty Lee- Well, sir, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not offering a thoracic surgeon advice, I can tell you that. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. Whether it's Getty Lee or, you know, just the random person on the streets, they probably have an opinion. Yeah. I love it. So sir, you know, you've been doing this work for years. A- and, and what I would love to do is just get a couple- insights from you.

How has your perspective changed about leadership over the decades that you've been serving in these roles? How do you think about that today versus maybe how you thought about that then? And, uh, you know, just excited to hear your thoughts on that topic. 

Mark Shapiro: Yeah, I mean, that, that to me is probably a great entry point into a leadership conversation, and we can go anywhere you want from that because I kinda think of it, like, of it as the arc of leadership for me.

Um, [00:04:00] certainly I led prior to becoming GM in Cleveland, but I remember vividly, um, 2001, you know, uh, being prepared to kind of take the, take the GM role at the end of that season, um, and having a very charismatic, successful leader as my mentor, and, uh, preceding me in John Hart, who was a, you know, a mythical figure in, in Cleveland baseball at that time for what he and Dan O'Dowd kinda led as a turnaround.

And I had been in that organization for a long time and led the player development system, but there's nothing that quite prepares you for what happens when you become GM. Yeah. And I remember thinking like, "Uh, okay, I've gotta do two things really well to follow John Hart as GM. You know, I've gotta be charismatic," because John was an unbel- unbelievably charismatic leader.

He could walk into a room and just light it up. Um, and then the second thing was I have to be a great decision-maker. Um, and it, and it's funny 'cause whenever I reflect back on that now, I think it probably couldn't [00:05:00] be further from how I view leadership now. Okay. You know, how I viewed it, you know, at 34 years old.

Um, now I don't think there's any speech I can give, any room I can walk into that 223 days later, you know, what I say is gonna impact that person. But what I can do is I can scale an organization that is focused on helping people understand how meaningful their work is to our mission. I can scale with all of our leaders, creating that understanding that people feel valued and that we're invested in their development, and I can create an organization that is focused on lifting people and helping them be the best they can be.

And so one speech, while that may be limited in meaning, and charisma, I think is very limited, being that leader every single day that, you know, creates an environment and creates an emphasis and an alignment of values where it's understood that my expectation from my direct reports is that they're developing their direct reports and [00:06:00] investing in them and caring deeply about them and making sure they connect the dots as to how they're directly responsible for bringing world championships to Canada, which is our mission.

And if that's happening, Scott, all the way down the organization, then the usher doesn't view their job as taking people to seats. They view it as creating an, an experience where that person wants to come back a second and a third time. And the chef doesn't view his job or her job as feeding our players.

They view their job as fueling champions. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Mark Shapiro: And the equipment manager's not washing uniforms. They're creating a championship culture and environment. So ultimately, it shifted from charisma, which I think has a very limited short-term- Yeah ... maybe not sustainable impact, to creating that special environment where people feel like they're part of something, that they're cared about, and most importantly, that their work's meaningful.

Yeah. That's what I view leadership, helping people understand that all of their work is meaningful. [00:07:00] And the only way we overcome our systemic challenges is if people are doing exceptional work, and I think that leads to people doing exceptional work. Uh, and the second piece on the decision-making piece, and this is a really interesting one in the professional sports arena, um, you know, I...

When I came here, uh, to Toronto and, and I got the media question, like, "Who's making the decisions? Is it Ross Atkins, the GM, or you, the president, 'cause you have GM experience?" And I'm like, "Well, neither of us." You know? Yeah. We're, we're leading a de- we're leading a decision-making process, and that angered, you know, the, the media.

And I remember, like, reflecting on that, and I do today, and I think it just gets back to the myth, the myth that our mass culture and our, and our media want to believe, and ultimately our fans want to believe. And that's whether it's politicians, and we, we may be seeing some of this in the, in the US political landscape now, or whether that's corporate leaders or whether that's coaches.

You know, people [00:08:00] want to believe that people have this special skill of making great decisions. Yeah. And I, I guess I would, you know, maybe somewhat controversial, but I would just say that's complete BS. That's a fallacy. That do- that skill does not exist. That if you look at anecdotally a small set of data, it may appear someone has that skill.

But if you look at it over a continuum, the best leaders lead a decision-making process. I'm very rarely making a decision, and if I am, we have a good chance to make a bad decision. But what we, but what we are doing as senior leaders here on a daily basis is ensuring that our framework and system for making a decision is really good.

The inputs and variables and information we receive subjectively and objectively are elite, and we're relentlessly focused on that being better all the time, and that we're learning. You know, because it's models, we're learning from our bad decisions and getting better with every decision we make. So, you know, I think that's probably the [00:09:00] final piece, the learning culture, you know, in addition to kind of...

But I, I, I would say that's it. I mean, I think about, you know, 20 years t- 20 years ago, 25 years ago, charismatic decision-maker. That's what I thought a leader was. Yeah. I really did. I thought that was... To lift- lifting others and leading process- Yeah ... is what I think it is now. And it is best in class 

Scott Allen: Lifting others and leading process.

Okay, so you have said so much here just in these first few moments- ... that I just wanna unpack a little bit. I mean, I think- 

Mark Shapiro: Sure ... 

Scott Allen: you know, I, I literally was at a bank, a Fortune 500 bank yesterday and, and I had a slide up and it said, you know, "Leadership in today's context is, it's more about creating the environment, the decision-making environment, and elevating the right questions," right?

I love that. Yeah. I mean, you, you know, you've sat in a meeting over the course of your career where you're like, "Well, shit, we're gonna talk about this? This is, like, number 77 on the list," you know? I, I love that. This is, this is the priority. Yeah. But I think now it's so much more, [00:10:00] especially when it's complex problem-solving.

It's really about h- creating that decision-making environment. Do people have the psychological safety to say what they see? Do we have somewhat of a process? Bezos was kind of famous for, Jensen Huang is kind of famous for the process that they take the team through. But then I, I, I love what you said.

Are we working the right puzzles? Do we have the right data and the right information for us to try and make a decision? And then- Yeah ... yeah, it's us co-creating what we think, because no person in the room has the answer. If we did, we would've already decided. Yeah. But in complexity, it's about creating that environment, and then what's our best guess?

There's a lot of experimentation in that space. Would you agree? 

Mark Shapiro: Yeah. And we're, we're pooling our intellect, we're pooling our skill sets- Yes ... we're pooling our experiences, uh, and, and, and making the statement that the best outcomes, the best results, the best decisions will come collectively, not individually, you know?

Yeah. And I think we, we're shifting from a world where people still wanna believe [00:11:00] someone has the superpower to individually kind of be that cult of personality. And I think, again, that's where, like, I would say young leaders that are developing don't try to be that, you know? Yes. Try to be someone that is in tune with others.

Work on your self-awareness first, your awareness of others second, you know? That empathy and compassion, two different thing, very different things, but empathy and compassion. Do the hard work on yourself, know your values, know your compass, know your path. You know, you're not gonna be able to be at peace or sustainable in your leadership style, and we can...

That's a whole 'nother topic, if you haven't done that work. Be very caring. You have to care b- and in order to connect and lead. And then the s- the next piece is exactly what you mentioned, which almost no one mentions in leadership, which is prioritization. Yeah. Yeah. Under- under- understand where the leverage lies, you know?

I always tell the story, like when I was a young farm director, it was the best training for leadership for me, 'cause I'd wake up every [00:12:00] day... It's like being a school, it's like being the, the principal of a school. You wake up every day, you've got 200 players, another 75 staff, and you've got 100 problems- Yeah

that are filling your inbox, you know, that were on your, backing up on your call sheet, and you got time to deal with about five- 

Scott Allen: Yep ... 

Mark Shapiro: you know, every day. And if you don't pick the right five, if you either pick the things that are pet peeves that bother you the most or the things you like doing the most- 

Scott Allen: Yep

Mark Shapiro: you have a good chance to undermine your effectiveness. But if you pick the five that actually take care of 25 others because they're leverage, they're high leverage- 

Scott Allen: Yes ... 

Mark Shapiro: you know. And then what's gonna happen is 25 are just gonna disappear anyway- Yep ... and 25 new ones are gonna come in the next day.

That's, you know, you're, you're gonna keep having 100 problems. Uh, but you gotta p- you gotta learn that, you know, time is our greatest commodity, and the greatest thing in life is, as a CEO or as an entry-level analyst, we all have the same amount of time. Every single one of us has the exact same. You can't buy [00:13:00] more, no job title, no salary's gonna give you more of it.

You know, we have the same as... So how you use your time and the prioritization of that, understanding leverage is an absolute separator, which you mentioned just now. I just think it's worth, it's worth calling out, you know? 

Scott Allen: Yeah. I mean, focusing on that signal versus, to, to your point, another way of saying kind of what you just said is there's a lot of noise.

There's a lot of noise. Yes. And, and to your point, you've g- you're getting the free advice externally. You're g- you're g- there's a lot of noise. And- 

Mark Shapiro: Yeah ... 

Scott Allen: I think those individuals who can focus in on, I love your phrasing there, leverage. Like, what are those high leverage decisions that are gonna make 40 of these go away, that are gonna be the most impactful?

And if we have- Yes ... these people in this room right now, w- what do we need to be, like serving up as a conversation piece? Because, uh, time is money, and we don't have a lot of time oftentimes. So no, I love that. And, and to go back to your first thing around the charisma, you know, [00:14:00] I, I, I love that kind of word scale How do we...

It, it can't just be... There's a friend of mine named Misha, and he has this quote, I'm not gonna get it exactly right, but it, it goes something like this: "Stop being the smartest person in the room, and start creating the smartest room." 

Mark Shapiro: I mean, that's beautiful. 

Scott Allen: Right? I love that. Isn't it? 

Mark Shapiro: Yeah. 

Scott Allen: Isn't it? I mean, it's just absolutely incredible.

You, you 

Mark Shapiro: can't scale- It's very easy for me not to be the smartest person in the room. And I've made a career, I've made a career out of hiring really smart people, so- Yeah. And, and once you hire them, you gotta empower them. Yeah, 

Scott Allen: yeah. 

Mark Shapiro: And, and then create an environment where they're collaborating and getting the best from each other, too.

Yes. So that's, it's... I, I, I'd always thought about one of the most important things we do when we onboard people and is helping them very objectively and clearly understand our systemic challenges, not necessarily our situational challenges. I kind of separate challenges into situational. There's COVID, there's [00:15:00] the CBA, there's, you know, things that come up, injuries.

But then there's our systemic challenges. Uh, and if you can... People tend to shy away from them because they, like, they're demoralizing. They're hard. They become excu- they become excuses. Yes. And I w- I was... I've always thought, I always try to articulate those, 'cause I think they actually make people realize how important they are- I love it

to, to achieving things. And then I, I always love this, like whenever you think you have an original idea, you read that, oh, uh, Marcus Aurelius was doing that 2,000 years ago. In this case, in this case, I was reading one of my favorite leaders, Stanley McChrystal. 

Scott Allen: Okay. 

Mark Shapiro: And he calls it shared consciousness, which is so much better than me saying I share our objective challenges, you know?

So I love that. I steal that from him. You know, he calls it shared consciousness, and I do think there's something with, um, you know, whether you, whether you wanna think about the Stockdale Paradox from Jim Collins or, you know, there's a very important part of leadership that you are saying, "Hey, these are our [00:16:00] objective challenges.

The foreign exchange rate is an issue here that we have no control over. The division we play in, the AL East, is a beast. You know, we have no control over that. The collective bargaining agreement, you know, creates an environment that we're, that, you know, the combination of those two things are exacerbated and are tough to overcome.

But you know what? If we have 600 people all doing exceptional work, 600 people who all care and take accountability and ownership for bringing world championships," like we said in the beginning, "we can overcome those challenges." Yeah. So don- And that just means that working here- Your work's really important regardless of the role you have, regardless if you're a strength coach or a, an usher or a corporate partnerships or the CEO.

Doesn't matter. Everybody's work here is very important to our success. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. Well, and if, if we're gonna scale, if it's gonna go past one charismatic individual, one hero, so to speak, as we like to, we like to [00:17:00] lionize individuals, at least in the West for sure, you know, it, it, it has to be scaled. And I, I, I think- Oh, 

Mark Shapiro: yeah

Scott Allen: I think that leader... I mean, what's fascinating for me, I'd love to get your thought on this, and I haven't... It may not, I may not articulate it perfectly the first time, but if you have a John Wooden or a Pat Summitt or a Phil Jackson, a Francona, there's a theory of action of how they are approaching the work.

They know how, and they have thought through how the process of how they're gonna do the work, the culture they're gonna create. It's designed. Yeah. There's intentionality behind that. There's a, there's a culture behind how we're gonna work out and practice. It's designed. There's intentionality. I don't know that I always find that with leaders, so to speak.

You have a person who's leading a department in XYZ corporation. I don't know that they always have that clarity and that intentionality, and it's always fascinated me how we're kinda doing the same thing. You're, you're, you're building a team and solving puzzles, and that's how... That's what the [00:18:00]coaches are doing as well, building a team, developing a culture, and solving puzzles of how do we tackle this next team?

How do we, how do we compete given some of what's going on? But at times I don't see leaders having that level of clarity, and it's always just kind of fascinated me. Because at least in the, your intro, you have clarity of what you're trying to accomplish, and I just love that I 

Mark Shapiro: think what, I think what clouds it with a lot of leaders, Scott, is results, outcome 

Scott Allen: Same, same here 

Mark Shapiro: You know?

Yeah, like I think outcomes, too many leaders, especially young leaders or, you know, leaders in less than, in suboptimal organizations get consumed with, "Well, if I don't perform, if I don't get this result, if I don't get this outcomes, I have to put up the numbers, I have to achieve these results. Uh, if we don't hit our number this quarter, it's not gonna matter."

And, you know, I would, I would just say, like, that, that there is a randomness to outcomes and results, and if you are obsessively focused on results and outcomes, you know, it is gonna be very hard both to [00:19:00] make adjus- quality adjustments, and it's gonna be hard to create an environment where you're gonna get the best out of people 

Scott Allen: Yes 

Mark Shapiro: Now, you've gotta, th- that, those leaders you mentioned, one of whom I've worked with, you know, their intentionality is about all the little things, not one big thing Yes

not one player, not one person 

Scott Allen: Mm ... 

Mark Shapiro: not one decision, and not one game plan. It's- And it's 

Scott Allen: that scale 

Mark Shapiro: You know? Right? There's a scale- It's the scale ... mentality, 

Scott Allen: right? 

Mark Shapiro: It's like, you know, it's like the John Wooden from the way you put your socks on, right? Yeah. Like, it's every- everything, you know, basically saying everything matters, right?

Yeah Like, approach your day, and I, I like to say, you know- Every, every one matters, every thing matters, and every day there's an opportunity to learn, get better, develop, and grow. 

Scott Allen: Mm. 

Mark Shapiro: If, if you have the single most important attribute in a culture, which is open-mindedness. Yeah. So you gotta start with, uh, and I tell my kids this every day, you know, the further I go, the less sure I am of everything.

Scott Allen: Yes. 

Mark Shapiro: You [00:20:00] know? 

Scott Allen: 100%. 

Mark Shapiro: People wanna think that senior leaders are s- are confident and sure, and again, a lot of what we're talking about, you know, for some reason, is dispelling myths, and maybe that's what, maybe that's what happens when you're a 59-year-old leader. You start to realize that your vision of leadership was mythology.

And the further, and, and the further you go in order to sustain it, a lot of it is dispelling the myths. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Mark Shapiro: Don't worry about being charismatic. Worry about caring deeply. Don't worry about being a super decision maker. Obsessively focus on the best process and prioritization and understanding leverage, you know?

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Mark Shapiro: Don't, uh, you know, those are, you know, those are all the things that start to, to, to matter and start to, you start to realize, like, okay, like, for me, you know, it's gonna be 1,000 little things. It's not that one big decision that's a great narrative to back into when the results occur. 

Scott Allen: That was an awesome phrasing right there.

I love that. Well, yeah. And, and again, w- one of the most, and you've mentioned this in the, in the [00:21:00] conversation, but one of the most important things that we have complete control over, are we kaizening? Are we, uh, on a daily basis improving ourselves? Because if others are in our care, uh, they deserve the best possible version of us, and none of us are perfect.

None of us have arrived. None of us have everything kind of figured out. But are we the best possible version, and do we have that system in place to help us Become more self-aware, become more- Yes ... grounded, recover 

Mark Shapiro: more effectiveness. To overcome our insecurities. Yes, 

Scott Allen: 100%. 

Mark Shapiro: You know, to be, to, to be aware of our insecurities- Yes

so they don't ra- derail us. I always like think back to every moment you've kind of cringed at a leader, when a leader's talked, you know, no matter where you are. It's like, "Oof." "Does he or he really say that?" It's usually their insecurities that are coming out, and they're just not aware of them. Yeah. But we all have them, every single one of us.

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Mark Shapiro: It's, uh, whether it's our background, our education, our appearance, whatever it is, we have some insecurities. If we're aware of them, we can manage them, prevent them from tripping us up. If we're not, they end up [00:22:00] causing you to, you know, to, to lose awareness and say things that cause people to disconnect- Yeah

you know, from, from the more important messages. 

Scott Allen: Well, and I think, I think w- your previous statement also just signals wisdom. I mean, the, the, the longer I do this, the more- Yes ... the less I know in certain ways. And the more, and, and again- The less 

Mark Shapiro: certain I am, 

Scott Allen: you know. Yes. And, and less certain you are, and I think that's why that kind of mindset around staying radically open to- Yes

the possibilities, because we all suffer from 180 cognitive biases that are impeding our ability to make sense of the world. And- 100% ... you know, uh, all we can do is create a great team, elevate the right questions w- and sometimes with the team. Is this worth our time, and is it worth the bandwidth? Create that environment where we can co-create what we think is the best- Yes

path forward. What's the next best experiment for us to try given everything we know? And- 

Mark Shapiro: And you mentioned earlier, foster that s- the comfort and safety for someone to challenge me. Yep, 

Scott Allen: yes. That 

Mark Shapiro: they [00:23:00] feel comfortable challenging me. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Mark Shapiro: Yeah. 

Scott Allen: And if they don't, you've been in that meeting too. Everyone- Yeah

kind of nods and smiles. 

Mark Shapiro: Right. 

Scott Allen: Walks out the room, and then the meeting happens at the water cooler, and, and there isn't true authentic buy-in, right? 

Mark Shapiro: Yeah. 

Scott Allen: Ugh. 

Mark Shapiro: And not gonna be greatness. Certainly not gonna be greatness- Yes ... 'cause you're just, you're, you're dependent on one person instead of the, the group to get to the best, the best decision and the best result.

So. 

Scott Allen: Mm-hmm. Okay. 

Mark Shapiro: There's something, there's something, and you, there's also something that's scalably motivating with that open-mindedness of not know- not having it figured out. Yeah. And, you know, if I c- if I can model that as CEO, and then ingrain in everybody else that, "Hey, come in today, you know, unsure.

Come in today, you know, open-minded. Come in today not knowing whether you're gonna learn from an elevator conversation or a project that we're leading through a committee or, you know, from, from your assistant. But you're gonna learn something today, and you're gonna find [00:24:00] a way to get better," that, you know, that makes every day exciting.

It makes every day an opportunity instead of like every day is executional. We're just here to execute, you know? Well, 

Scott Allen: and it, and it's, it's almost freeing in a way for the leader as well to kinda let go of that heroic mindset, to let go of that image. Because I think- There's a lot of people out there in the world right now constructing leadership how you used to.

"I have to have the answer. I have to make the decision. It has to be the b- I have to get the result." They're feeling that pressure, and especially, again, when it's complexity, no one person has the answer. It, it's not- Yeah ... a thing. We would've decided if that was the case. And in, in this environment, just it's a little bit freeing to say, "You know, I don't know the answer, but I'm confident together we can come up with what we think is the best path forward."

So you're kinda- Absolutely ... holding the confidence and the humility. You're holding both. You're not, like, whimpering and, "I, I have no clue what we should do," but it's- Yeah ... holding that space of do- of both at once, [00:25:00] confidence and humility, and I think that then permeates through the, uh, that scales through the organization.

That gets 

Mark Shapiro: to a place- I, I think- Oof ... I think it's had that, that, that's a, those are wise words. It's had that effect on me. Yeah. It's made leadership, it's freed me up- Yes ... and it's made, it's freed me up to be a better leader. It's also made leadership more enjoyable for me. Um, and, and the are- and I do double down.

The areas I'm more confident on are how important the hiring process is, identification of talent, how important it is that once people are in the organization, they're empowered and we're committed to their development, and that we're, you know, putting systems and decision-making process in place that makes it dependent that everybody contributes, and that we weight the information properly.

And so I think, like, I am confident in process. I am- Yeah ... confident, I am confident in systems. I'm confident in values and- Yes ... you know, how important open-mindedness is, and learning, and all those things are for... [00:26:00] And, and respect and trust, and those things that are make up the, the cornerstones of our organization.

But I'm equally confident that there's no one individual that's gonna, you know- ... rise, that we're just gonna lean on for making all these... It's certainly not me, you know? 

Scott Allen: Well, sir, as we begin to wind down, uh, anything else that you want to share just on, on the topic of leadership? Something, maybe your perspective has changed.

I mean, we have self-awareness baked in here. We have that level of, um, how we approach and being kind of really certain about how we approach the decision-making and some of those standards in that space, but we're approaching it in a very open-minded way. We have that mindset of, look, we need to scale in people's hearts what we're trying to accomplish here, and, and that is not gonna happen from one charismatic individual.

The importance of self-awareness. Anything else that you just wanna share with folks as we begin to wind down our time? 

Mark Shapiro: The only, I mean, learning, we [00:27:00] mentioned learning too. Yeah. Like, there's commitment to perpetu- you mentioned Kaizen- Yeah ... perpetual improvement, learning, and open-mindedness that serves as the core of that, and making sure...

You know, people ask me if there's on- if you, if you had to say what is the single most important value to building an or- a, a, an elite, you know, best in class organization, I would say open-mindedness was, is where you have to start, you know? Yeah. And it takes, it, it's that insecurity piece. It takes being comfortable at kind of not at, not putting up the front that you have everything figured out.

And, um, you know, whether it's, whether you wanna call it vulnerability or whether you wanna call it, you know, whatever it is, I think champion that, turn that on its side and call that learning instead of worrying about, you know, what you don't know. Um, and the only other piece would, you know, just to be a, to close out from a, from a leadership perspective that I think is, is helpful on a daily basis, and again, drawing upon maybe ancient wisdom and Epictetus would be that dichotomy of control and just kind of [00:28:00] understanding and breaking your day down into...

And it gets back to the randomness of results, right? Yeah. Like, what are the things... Am I, am I spending my energy, time, effort, emotion, um, anxiety, all those things on things I can't control, or am I directing my energy onto the things that I can control? And human nature makes us kinda fixate on, you know, starting with what others think of us, uh, you know, things we can't control and, and so inefficient and such a waste of that greatest asset that we have, time.

Uh, so the only other thing I think is helpful for all leaders, and I remind myself on a daily basis, is to just, you know, focus on what you can control. You know, think about things that from, through that lens of, you know, there are all these... Don't spend your time and waste your energy and time. When you find yourself doing it, stay aware, let that go.

Get back to putting your energy into things you can control, which are a lot of the things that we've been talking about, fostering that environment, that culture, those [00:29:00] values, and, and those attributes in, in your organization. 

Scott Allen: Lot of practical wisdom, listeners. Lot of practical wisdom. Uh, and you know what?

I, uh, sir, I can't thank you enough for spending some time with us today. Uh, you know what? I, I am excited to see, to get back to the stadium now that, uh, you've kind of, uh, whet the appetite. So I will be me- actually, I'm gonna be in Toronto to see a couple concerts this summer, so maybe we're gonna add a Jays game on that.

And, uh, you know what? Let's, 

Mark Shapiro: let's do that, for sure. 

Scott Allen: Okay. Well, be well. Thank you, sir. Would love to do it again. Thanks, Scott. Bye-bye. Appreciate 

Mark Shapiro: it. 

Scott Allen: Thank you so much for listening to Practical Wisdom for Leaders, the official podcast of the International Leadership Association. Be sure to leave a rating, share this episode with someone in your network, and visit the show notes for links, references, and additional resources.

You can also subscribe to the Practical Wisdom for Leaders newsletter for more insights and resources. Link is in the show notes. I lead retreats for senior [00:30:00] leadership teams, conduct engaging workshops, and deliver inspiring keynotes for organizations across industries. To learn more, visit www.scottjallen.net.

Until next time, keep changing lives.