Practical Wisdom: It's Caught, Taught, and Sought with Dr. Shane McLoughlin

Dr. Shane McLoughlin is an Associate Professor in the School of Education at the University of Birmingham, where he works in the world-leading Jubilee Centre for Character and Virtues. He is a leading expert on Aristotle’s concept of practical wisdom, and his work brings together moral philosophy and psychology, character education, behavioural science, differential psychology, clinical psychology, coaching psychology, and psychometrics to explore how people develop the good character and judgement needed to live and act well.

Shane is the author of Practical Wisdom Coaching, published by Routledge, and serves as Programme Lead for the MA in Character Education. His research focuses especially on practical wisdom, virtue, flourishing, measurement, and the limits of “one-size-fits-all” approaches to education, coaching, clinical practice, and human development. Across his work, Shane treats wisdom as a practical capacity: the ability to discern what matters, respond proportionately to complexity, and choose well when no rulebook can do the choosing for us.

A Couple Quotes From This Episode

• "Intelligence is knowing how to do things. Wisdom is knowing whether you should do them."
• "You're finding the right amount at the right time for the context that is conducive to flourishing."

Resources

• Book: Practical Wisdom Coaching

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

• The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. Attend The Global Conference in Toronto, October 28-31.

About  Scott J. Allen

• Website
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Transcript

Scott Allen: [00:00:00] Okay, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for checking in wherever you are in the world. Today, we have a topic I'm excited to learn about. It's near and dear to my heart, practical wisdom. I have Shane McLoughlin. He's at the University of Birmingham in the UK. Uh, was there a couple years ago, had a wonderful mead- uh, wonderful meal, Shane, at Dishoom in town.

Ah. I don't know if you've eaten there, but oh my gosh, so much fun. And- I love 

Shane McLoughlin: Dishoom. 

Scott Allen: Ah, so good. So good. And w- my family was there in... Well, actually was in the UK. We were in London this time, but we had another meal over the holidays at Dishoom in, in London, and so I have a new favorite restaurant in, uh in Britain.

But that is not what we're here to talk about. We are here to talk about you and your work. You have a new book. So Shane, uh, let people know a little bit about you, and then we're gonna jump in and we're gonna talk some practical wisdom. 

Shane McLoughlin: That sounds exciting. Yeah, and I'm really pleased to be here.

Thanks for having me. Um, so, you know, I'm Shane McLoughlin. I'm an associate professor at the University of Birmingham, and I work within a research center called the [00:01:00] Jubilee Center for Character and Virtues, and we're really interested in taking some of in particular, but not exclusively, Aristotle's ideas about how to live a good life and how to translate that for educational purposes.

But of course, as I'm sure you know and, and your listeners know, education takes place more than just in the classroom. It's something that takes place in leadership. We work with people in the Army, medical schools all over the world. It's really exciting, and we get to, um, share some of those ideas and develop them with, with experts in their own field.

So, and I also teach on the MA in Character Education, which, um, is a part-time distance learning program, and we're very lucky because we get to have people from all over the world on that too. And of course, sometimes I feel like I learn more from my students than they learn from me because they're, of course, experts in their field.

And it's a real pleasure to be able to share these ideas that, uh, in some ways are eternal or, you know, or they're certainly things that have stood the test of time, [00:02:00] and then develop them empirically and then see them implemented in practice. So that's really what we do at the Jubilee Center.

And, uh, I'm a psychologist by background and I get to work with philosophers, sociologists quite a lot of different fields, teachers, and we get to think about, you know, how can we actually make these things practically relevant for real people today. 

Scott Allen: Oh, I love that. I love that. You know, I always start...

I left full-time academia about two years ago. I was a professor of management, and then have transitioned into primarily executive education for Southern Methodist University, which is in Dallas- Mm-hmm ... Texas. And so I'm with professionals all the time. And I always... A friend of mine, Tony Middlebrooks, said this quote.

He said, "I don't know better. I know different." And that's how he starts his courses. "I don't know better. I know different." Mm-hmm. So literally, I was with a number of executives this week in the automotive industry and I said, "You know, I have not served as a general manager. I don't know better. I know different.

And so I'm gonna share with you some things I think are pretty cool that have really caught my [00:03:00] attention." But to your point, in the spirit of kind of what you just said, I am learning just as much as they are as I kind of observe how some of these concepts are interfacing with them, right? 

Shane McLoughlin: Exactly. A- and this is the thing where I don't think any one individual necessarily has all of the knowledge that might be relevant here. We can give the nerdy depth, but they but then we try and create that bridge between the professionals who are doing good work- Yeah ... but might want to infuse what they're doing with something particularly for us in relation to professional ethics, um, and, practical wisdom of course as part of that.

And you know, what we call the virtues, um- Yes ... more broadly, you know. So, obviously in business or in a school or whatever kind of organization it is, oftentimes you have these aspired, professional identity of the organization where you've got core values. Um, but oftentimes the distinction between values and virtues, um, in practice is subtle.

Whereas theoretically we can say, "Well, let's put some shape on that and think about, you know, which [00:04:00] one do you mean and why?" And you know, it- it's sort of it's a great starting point for a conversation, and understanding really what matters to people at the end of the day. 

Scott Allen: Hmm. Okay, so speaking about what matters, a- and I think this is where we're gonna go a little bit deep.

Bring us back to a little bit of Aristotle here. Let's refresh listeners. So we have... and I'm so excited to, to hear how you pronounce. I, I say phronesis, but I know that there's different pronunciations. So maybe bring us back to how Aristotle was thinking about knowledge and wisdom. There's a few different kind of branches of that, and then we'll jump in with your book and your work.

Shane McLoughlin: Sure. Yeah. I mean, I always say phronesis, but sometimes I just, uh, I skip to just saying practical wisdom- Yes. ... uh, because first of all, more people intuitively get what it means. But also, um, when I'm inevitably told I'm wrong by somebody from Greece, they can I, I can, you know, sidestep that as much as possible.

Yeah, so I mean, of course, there are different kinds of wisdom. And you know, there's theoretical wisdom, sometimes called sophia. Um, there's more the sort of wisdom to almost instrumentally, um, navigate [00:05:00] goals. So you've got this is where, uh, my pronunciation is going to really scupper me.

It's, uh, denotes. Mm-hmm. A- and, you know, and then of course you've got practical wisdom, which is more to do with h- how you can in daily life strive towards being your best self in context so that you're not you know, you're not trying to have, let's say, deontological rules, you know, that might not apply in particular situations.

I'm sure many listeners will know cases of that, especially in organizations where there's a rule about what's right and what's good, and it just doesn't apply in some situations. So I think practical wisdom, I, I like to think of it as the opposite of that, where we think about, okay, how can we, uh, attend to that nuance and do what's right and, navigate those instances where our choice is between being honest and kind.

And maybe we can be a combination of both to some degree, but the context usually dictates how much of each. And so those are the kinds of things that we sort of deal with there. 

Scott Allen: Oh, I love it. Okay, so talk a little bit about, uh, the book. And i- [00:06:00] if you would, I mean, I just want to really pique the interest of listeners.

So what are two or three things that kind of you are proud of, that stand out for you in this piece of work? Uh, I'm just excited to learn how you're thinking about this. 

Shane McLoughlin: Sure, yeah. I mean, I suppose to, to give a little bit of context for this, I mean, our work with character education, it's usually with, for example, medical schools or universities or indeed, regular schools at, at primary or secondary or elementary, as you might say, and, and high school.

And oftentimes we say, you know, character is developed in three different ways. It's caught, taught, and sought. 

Scott Allen: Oh, 

Shane McLoughlin: wow. So it's caught, it's caught from the environment that you're in. Right. So this is your kind of social osmosis, your, your exemplars, uh, your, you know, your, um, the people you try to emulate, the messaging that you see consistently, the culture of the place.

So that's one part. But then there's taught, where of course you can teach some of these ideas directly and say, you know, um, if I'm talking about, uh, a concept like, um, you know, what is a [00:07:00] value, what is a virtue, and what do we mean by the golden mean? These different things that come up in these Aristotelian ideas and of course other conceptions as well.

So you can teach people to understand what that means and consciously attend some of these features and, and of course leaders too, because they're the ones who might help instantiate that from the top down, and mentors and managers and these kind of things too. But then of course, you've got character sought, which is this idea that you want people to have their heart and, and autonomously seek to develop themselves in this way to be their best selves.

And so I guess if that's what we do in big organizations, my question with this book was you know, I, I come from a background in psychology, and one of the areas that I used to study was values-focused psychotherapies. 

And in many different psychotherapies, to one degree or another, they explicitly foreground your values as being extremely [00:08:00] important.

You know, if you look at logotherapy, that's all about doing what is meaningful despite suffering and so on. You've got ACT therapy, that's very values-focused. But when I was doing research in that area, and I guess this is what brought me to this field I kind of noticed that sometimes people have values that aren't good for themselves or other people or both.

So for example you know, to some degree you could argue that psychopaths have values, right?

Scott Allen: Yeah, themselves. Their own needs, right? 

Shane McLoughlin: Well, exactly. Exactly. And so, you know, the question is, you know, are all values equally valuable? And it's like, well, that doesn't seem right. But nonetheless there is this important question of we do need a diversity of preferences and so on.

And so in fields like clinical psychology or counseling, or in this case coaching, which I guess you could think of as, the clinical psychology for, when you don't necessarily have a mental health problem, but it's, more wellbeing focused for, for your typical person. How does our character education [00:09:00] work translate for one-to-one or one-to-few situations?

Hmm. Or if I have a teacher or I have a leader in a medical school or a manager or somebody who is in the army who might be a mentor to someone or all of these other settings that we might work across how can they take some of these key ideas and translate them for those one-to-one and one-to-few professions?

Um, and that's why I think coaching seems a good place to start because it's non-clinical, but nonetheless it deals with similar, uh, sorts of settings, similar sorts of problems, but perhaps more flourishing-focused than, uh, remediation of mental health problems focused on like clinical psychology. So, yeah, that was kind of my motivation, and I guess the book is about that.

And at its core it really asks this question, what if your, your m- your manager or your life coach or your, you know, somebody who that you, you looked up to to develop this practical wisdom, what if that was Aristotle? What would he say? What would that look like? And that was the [00:10:00] premise.

Scott Allen: Oh, wow. Okay. So I'm excited. Now w- what are two or three things you want listeners to know? Because I love this. I, I love that we're kind of... It's almost a, a- appreciative approach. We're not focused on the deficits or, or filling some- But it's we're here and we're trying to help you as an individual or a human.

I mean, I'm gonna use the word thrive, but- Sure ... from a coaching lens. So what are a few things you want folks to know about the text? 

Shane McLoughlin: Yeah. I, I mean, I guess there are some key points that, you know, when we... there's differences between values and virtues that are kind of important- Talk about that

um, in pra- in practice. And- And I think, you know, you can value things that are good or bad for you or others. And maybe they're good in the short term, but they're bad over time, or they're good in one context but not another. Um, and I suppose, you know, there are different... I guess the problem with the values-focused approach sometimes is that it's so individual and so almost preference-based to some [00:11:00] degree that it's very difficult to say that one value is better than another, unless you've got some sort of a yardstich- stick to measure it against, whether that's flourishing or thriving or whatever it might be.

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Shane McLoughlin: But in a virtue-focused account you would focus on how can people flourish. And you can determine which, for example, which subset of values are conducive to flourishing. Yes. So you've got a criterion for selecting them. And, um, so I suppose that, that is one of the things that I... that oftentimes we use the language of values 'cause virtue language can sometimes seem a bit old-fashioned.

Yeah. But in practice, I think implicitly, oftentimes that's what we actually mean. So I guess that would be the first thing. I suppose the second thing would be- You know, oftentimes we think about values or even virtues as universally a good thing, but we need to calibrate them in context, you know?

So, um, we can't just... if you think about something like [00:12:00] integrity, right? We always think of- about that as being one of the better virtues that someone could embody in an organization or otherwise. And of course, you can have a deficit of that, which is, you know, you're deceitful. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Shane McLoughlin: But then you start to think you know, you've got a virtue, you've got a deficit of a virtue.

But what would an excess of a virtue look like? 

Scott Allen: Mm. 

Shane McLoughlin: And this is a really interesting idea from Aristotle called the golden mean, and the idea is that you could take a value or a virtue and say, "Well, what would this look like in excess? Where could this go off the rails a little bit?" Yep. And so you could imagine somebody who has so much integrity to the point where they might become a little bit rigid and impractical or, you know, they might be seen as punishing and austere or that kind of thing.

And so, you know, maybe they're not approachable anymore. Or even if you think about something like compassion, you know, um, you can have too little of that, where you're- you, you don't care about other people's feelings and we all know what that looks like. But then you could also potentially have too much, to the point where you're so concerned with other people's needs that you might not focus on your own.[00:13:00] 

And if you don't focus on your own, maybe you're a poor example for people you love. Uh, maybe you are somebody who burns out. You are somebody who isn't discerning about when actually, you know what? This person has actually wronged me, and I need to say something, right? Yeah. So that golden mean idea, I think, is quite far-reaching and, and I think useful.

And let me think. Another point... Sorry, go ahead. 

Scott Allen: No so y- you'll... We'll end off, this is the part where we'll edit. So you'll end off on useful, and I'll say, um, Shane, I'd love to get your... I've never been able to have this g- this question answered for me, and I'd just love to get your perspective. When, when we talk about the golden mean, so for instance, back to le- let's say, uh, integrity.

Well, if I'm, if I'm protecting human life and I am being deceitful and lying, in that context it's to protect human life. I mean, you could go to World War II, examples from situations that happened, y- that, that are very, very relevant. You know, when... It's that knowing when, right? It's the, it's that practical [00:14:00] wisdom of am I intentionally deciding to be deceitful, because in this context, it's probably the best decision for what is going on?

So can that phrasing golden mean be confusing to some? Or how do you think about that phrasing? Is it always a mean, or is it just where on this spectrum should I land for this situ- this situation? Does that make sense, that question? 

Shane McLoughlin: Yeah. That makes sense to me. Do you want me to edit that directly, or do you wanna ask it sort of formally?

Oh, yeah. Because I realize you, you had a break there. 

Scott Allen: Oh, no, no. Go for it. Just jump in and- Okay ... answer the question. Yeah. 

Shane McLoughlin: Yeah. So, so the language of golden mean is probably a little bit misleading in the sense of it's not a perfect middle, because then you can kind of become a little bit obscurantist at that point.

Okay. When really what, what it means is you're finding the right amount at the right time for the context that is conducive to flourishing. Um- Right ... and so, Aristotle really emphasized this idea [00:15:00] of eudaimonia or, what we might call the good life, um, which is more than subjective wellbeing.

You know, oftentimes psychologists and I bear some of the responsibility as a psychologist here, we focus on subjective wellbeing, but of course people can have subjective wellbeing while the world burns around them, you know? And so oftentimes we talk about flourishing as encompassing that, but also objective wellbeing.

You know, there's things that you actually need in your life for it to go well. And so, you know, if you're thinking about that wider conception of flourishing, not just now, but potentially iteratively and potentially for other people to flourish alongside you, then you can use that as, in some sense, a yardstick against which, uh, you decide the applicability of a virtue in context.

Scott Allen: Okay. So it, it, it seems to me that intentionality is an important part of this whole conversation. If ... Am I intentional, at least, in the level of deceit I need to employ in this situation? It's a conscious decision [00:16:00] I've chosen you know, given what I know and, and, and, and, and, my objectives. But is that

Does that, does that word intentionality feel right to you? 

Shane McLoughlin: It does. I mean, I think, it, to take it right back down to Earth, we've all heard of white lies, for example, where- Sure ... uh, you know, you can tell the truth. But, you know, we've all met those people who, for example, say, they hurt everybody's feelings unnecessarily.

And they're, they're abrasive. And they say, "Oh, I'm just telling the truth. That's just the kind of person I am." And I'm like I could tell you another kind of person you are, but you might not like that." A- and I think that's the idea, that actually you're sort of, you're turning a virtue into a vice contextually because it is potentially corrosive to flourishing, right?

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Shane McLoughlin: Um, so that's where I think that concept is quite far-reaching because it stops people from being too rigid when oftentimes, previously some of these [00:17:00] ways of being might have served us really well. But we've only been around so long, and we often encounter new contexts where actually, you know, there, there's another there's another way of being that would actually help to navigate this situation in service of everybody else's good, you know?

Yeah. A- and your own, of course, because y- you can't neglect that either. A- and that's what, I guess what I would say about that. Yeah. 

Scott Allen: I, I think it's again, to your point, I mean, we can get to a point where we come off as dogmatic or we can get to a point where we're going to lose people.

We think we're showing up in the quote unquote right way to help others thrive or flourish. And in, in reality, maybe softening that a little bit and choosing a different space to enter is actually gonna be more beneficial in the long run. I mean, I think sometimes in my mind or at least in my experience, some of these...

It, it can be kind of taken to an extreme, right? It's almost a, a... Is it, is it Kant, categorical imperative that you, you always... Is that... [00:18:00] Am I getting that correctly? You always behave that you never lie, right? 

Shane McLoughlin: Yeah. Yeah. Well, exactly. I mean, we actually did a study in 2023 where we, we asked a, a representative sample of, of UK participants how did they make their career decisions when they were leaving school or university if they went to university.

And we kind of coded them for this kind of Kantian deontological reasoning, the utilitarian reasoning where it's, about maximizing the amount of good, and then virtue ethical reasoning, which is slightly more motivated by being a good person. And it turned out that Kantian reasoning negatively predicted flourishing.

Hmm. So people who had this sort of rigid rule-based reasoning, actually they were likely to be flourishing less. And when we look at the psychotherapy res- research literature on rule-governed behavior, we see the exact same thing, that actually if you're overly if you're overly governed by those rules- 

Scott Allen: Yeah

Shane McLoughlin: then you... it tends to not work out too well for you. 

Scott Allen: Huh. 

Shane McLoughlin: Co- coincidentally, virtue-based reasoning was [00:19:00] most conducive to flourishing, which you would expect considering both concepts are essentially Aristotelian. 

Scott Allen: Very cool. Okay, so couple other things from the book that you want people to be aware of or have on their radar because...

Don't give them too much, though. I want them to go click- ... on the link that's in the show notes, everybody, to purchase. But what else do you want folks to know? 

Shane McLoughlin: Sure. Well, I mean, first of all, that you know, for a long time, it's over 23 s- 2,300 years now, right, since, since Aristotle was about. And it's only relatively recently that we've started to psychometrically tease apart the structure of practical wisdom and what that involves.

Scott Allen: Nice. 

Shane McLoughlin: And one of the things that we do here is, um, you know, we've got a big study that came out last year. It's got 4,000 people, and we've tried to tease apart what are the actual components to practical wisdom and think about, in the case of the book, the paper's freely available. You can have a look.

But in the case of the book, it's about trying to take that back down to Earth and say, "What can an individual do?" Um, and so we try to walk through that, um, or rather I try to walk through that. And then I suppose the other major thing is the importance of friendship which doesn't get enough attention either in, i- in workplace discussions or in [00:20:00] wellbeing discussions.

And this sort of raises this idea that, you know, you've got to surround yourself with good people in a way and distinguish between different kinds of friends, you know, 'cause this Aristotelian idea is that there are at least three kinds. There's the one where you know, you just like hanging out with them.

You know, you go for a beer with them or whatever it is. And then there's the second kind, which is it's more transactional, you know. So I get something from you, and I'm expect to I'm expected to give you something back. And then, of course, there's the character friend, where it's not about you.

It's just that you actually care about the other person's, uh, long-term welfare. And, um, so we talk through what that might look like in terms of a coaching conversation as well as, you know, of course, management conversations, mentorship. And the idea, of course, is that, uh, Aristotle, of course, was a mentor for Alexander the Great and that's, that's quite a partnership and thinking about, you know, what might their relationship have looked like and think about, if you're...

If the people that you care about are going to, [00:21:00] quote unquote, "conquer," not in a, a hopefully, destroying half the world kind of way, but in a way where it's, uh, it's s- it's, uh, humane and, and it's, uh, you know, long-term conducive to, to flourishing and integration, then yeah. That could be a, a useful lens to think about how people relate to one another.

So I guess those are the key things that, um, I would highlight that, that are in there, and that's all, of course, as evidence-based as I can manage to get it. 

Scott Allen: Uh, I think, and especially from a, the standpoint of you, you use the phrasing caught, taught, and you use the phrasing caught, taught, and sought, and I love that.

I absolutely love that. But yes, if we're surrounding our- ourselves with people, with friends who are In pursuit of flourishing, who are of good character, who are intentional about their decisions. It's probably a heck of a lot easier for us to catch that and become- Yeah ... that, [00:22:00] right? 

Shane McLoughlin: Exactly. Exactly. You wanna set up your environment to be, uh, the kind of person that that you want to become.

And, you know, I, I mentioned that 2023 study earlier, and one of the things that people did, the people who were really flourishing, was they picked a job where they would encounter the kinds of people that they might like to become like. You know? Oh, wow. This kind of follows through there as well.

And empirically, that seems to be conducive to flourishing as far as I can tell. And yeah, and it's okay to have the other kinds of friends. Don't get me wrong. Sure. Yeah. But you kind of wanna have the other ones, too, and, and not, not make category errors here. Because then, of course, you have these asymmetrical relationships with people, and uh, that can lead to, to heartache on one side or the other, right?

Scott Allen: Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay tell us a little bit about practical wisdom, because I, I called the podcast Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders not having really explored it in depth.[00:23:00] 

Nice. I just loved the concept, right? Yeah. So full transparency, listeners. We're like 340 episodes in or whatever it is. He had no clue what he was doing. This is the one. 

So how do you think about the concept? And then we'll begin to wind down our time. 

Shane McLoughlin: Sure. So well, practical wisdom, I- I suppose the point of it is to try to think about how to navigate situations where there isn't always a straightforward response.

So the easy example is, you know, somebody asks you, you know, "Do you like my new shirt?" And you're thinking, "Oh, gosh, I really don't, but I don't wanna hurt their feelings." And versions of that that you see. You know, it's, uh, you know, are, are you in the right in this argument with your partner? And it's like, well, I'm your friend, but...

you, you, you don't, you don't know what to do, right? You can have values that clash, and you can't have both 100% at the same time. And it's thinking about, how do you adjudicate between different goods there? And the idea is that practical wisdom, it's almost like, uh, this is something that we've, we've kind of said a lot.

I, I really should find a new metaphor. But it's thinking about, you know, being the conductor of the orchestra of virtues, right? Okay. So you've got different virtues that, uh, can apply in different amounts at different times, and you [00:24:00] wanna harmonize those in service of flourishing. And I suppose when we tease that apart psychometrically, we looked at a lot of the scholarship on practical wisdom and thought about what might that involve plausibly?

And so then, In psychology and in psychometrics, what you can do is an empirical analysis to see how different questions group together. And the idea behind that basically is, you know, I could ask you three questions. Do you smile a lot? Do you enjoy your life? And do you laugh a lot, right? Three different questions.

However, if for every person that answers that question, the answer to one question is indicative of the answer to all the others, you're kind of asking the same question, which is something like, "Am I happy?" 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Shane McLoughlin: And so w- when we created, I think it was almost a couple of hundred items for practical wisdom and what that might plausibly involve, we find that actually it's much more nuanced than a lot of previous scholarship realized where there are actually 10 different [00:25:00] aspects of it- 

Scott Allen: Wow

Shane McLoughlin: um, psychometrically. And, uh, we were able to find out that they're not all equally important. They're not all equally central. Ah. Um, but the things that were central were things like, do you have a picture of what your best self might look like, and are you genuinely striving towards that? Wow. So it's al- it's very, very identity based and aspirational based.

Other ones were to do with deliberation. So, you know, you need to make a decision. It's not necessarily difficult. Are you taking the time to ask yourself, "Do I have all the information I actually need to properly make this decision, or do I need to seek new information here?" 

Scott Allen: Wow. 

Shane McLoughlin: Um, so that practically speaking translates very well for something like practical wisdom coaching because you're like, "Okay, here's a check and balance I could potentially talk about."

And you know, and then there are other things like emotional regulation, which seemed less important, which was interesting. And that went against some previous research because you would expect, "Hey, I need to be able to control my emotions to make the right decision." And it's like, no, it turns out that's an [00:26:00] important part of making the right decision, that actually part of what informs your decision is the kind of person you want to be int- and, you know, what flourishing might look like for you, that blueprint of your good life.

And also how you feel about it, because obviously our emotions give us feedback from our actions and tell us whether we've done right or wrong. We have that conscience aspect. So there is this idea in practical wisdom that if we want to become a good person or develop a virtue, it is, um, it's iterative, right?

It's habitual. So, you know, you might not be able to be the most gregarious person right now, but maybe you can start with a relatively low bar of just sort of vaguely smiling at a stranger. Do you know what I mean? So 

Scott Allen: Yes. 

Shane McLoughlin: Uh, but then it scales up, you know. So th- this kind of mirrors this idea of these micro habits you see.

Uh, you know, that book Atomic Habits is, is really popular. And the same is true in the personality literature. If you wanna change personality, you need to do it one baby step at a time, and you have to actually complete the action, so [00:27:00] you have to live it out bit by bit. Yeah. Um, and you know, the ... Did you say there was somebody at, was it Southern Methodist University?

Scott Allen: There's a person... Uh, I, I'm at Southern Methodist University in executive education in the School of Business. But I do know of a personality sc- scholar who's at SMU. Yes. He did a TED Talk that I really enjoyed. 

Shane McLoughlin: Yes. There's a chap whose research that... I don't know him personally, but, uh, I think his name's Nathan Hudson, and he's- Yes

one of the big, big leaders in this volitional personality trait, uh, space. And I admire his work very much. And that is really congruent with Aristotelian ideals of how, not, like, well, ideas, not rather ideals, about how you can actually become a better person, right? Mm-hmm. It, it it's very congruent.

And it's interesting how 2,300 years later it all still seems to broadly match up. Uh, we can add a little bit more nuance. We've got technology now and methods that, that maybe the ancients didn't have. But it's so broadly, uh, congruent it's, uh, it's fascinating to me. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Shane McLoughlin: But yeah, so practical wisdom, multifaceted, but some [00:28:00] parts seem to be more important than others.

Now, we find that it predicts flourishing reliably. Uh, it also predicts things like dark personality traits- Oh, wow ... like Machiavellianism and sadism. Uh, not positively, negatively so. So in other words, if you're higher in practical wisdom, you tend to be lower in those things. 

Scott Allen: Good. 

Shane McLoughlin: Good ... yeah, yeah.

Yeah. If, if it went the other way, that would've been awkward for us, uh, if- ... if the data looked like that. Um, Would've been odd ... but nonetheless, thankfully, that was it. And interestingly, there are other ideas of what it means to be a good person, like this idea... I'm, don't know if you're familiar with moral foundations theory.

Scott Allen: No. 

Shane McLoughlin: This is, uh, Jonathan Haidt and colleagues' approach. And they're suggesting that we have these sort of almost innate preferences towards things like care or justice. And, and that actually when we say something like, "This is good or bad," what we're really saying is- You know, yay for that thing, boo for that thing based on an innate kind of predisposition to to liking one thing or another.

So we took their best measure and we tried to predict flourishing, and then we took our [00:29:00] practical wisdom measure and tried to predict flourishing over and above that- Mm ... and it added so much extra explained variance. And what that means for practical purposes is that their measure is good, but actually this idea of practical wisdom seems to add something over and above that in terms of explaining what flourishing might entail.

And that, I think, was encouraging for us, and we're very lucky that, you know, our colleagues have taken our measures and translated into Chinese and Spanish and all sorts. And so this, this research is very much ongoing, and I think other people are certainly gonna be the stars in, in, in that particular area.

But I'm glad to be able to play a small part in understanding practical wisdom as such. 

Scott Allen: Oh. Well, I, I have so much respect. I think... You know, I think it was Ryan Holiday who has made stoicism just really sexy. Now, it's gonna be Shane, ladies and gentlemen, listeners, who makes Aristotle, you know? Okay.

Shane McLoughlin: Right. Okay. I'm going to need a sexy internet avatar. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. Yeah. 

Shane McLoughlin: Yeah. 

Scott Allen: Um, I just, I have so much respect because I think this is so critical and [00:30:00] foundational to, I believe, human existence. Of course many faith-based religions and many, uh, and psychologists of course and, how do we help humans live their best lives?

How do we help humans live into lives of purpose and meaning? Of course, that has a direct relationship to why leadership is so incredibly important, and especially from that caught, taught, and sought aspect. Uh, the individuals in those positions of authority, who they are matters a lot. It matters a lot.

And,

Shane McLoughlin: Yeah ... 

Scott Allen: you know, as you kind of reflect on this conversation and your wisdom in this space, what's the practical wisdom for listeners? As you, as we kind of begin to wind down our time, what's the practical wisdom for listeners, and maybe even as it kind of relates to leadership a little bit?

Shane McLoughlin: Yeah. Well, I think the, most of us are basically well-intentioned, aren't we? Or at least to ourselves we seem like, like we are. And I think sometimes it's thinking about where, okay, we all have deficits. We all have [00:31:00] things that we're working on and we're not the best at. Yep. Um, whether it's as a professional, um, whether it's at work, you know, or, or at home or h- whatever it is.

But we also have these things that we're kind of proud of ourselves for, and sometimes it can be useful to develop those things. But sometimes it's just helpful to think about in which context may I express who I am, the things that I can't change about myself, but in ways that are more conducive to flourishing, I would say.

Because then you're thinking about it as not being about you, but it's being about how some version of you can fit with what is good. 

A- a- and for me that, that's the big takeaway that stops you from being dogmatic and stops you from thinking about something irrespective of context or rather a- ambivalent to context, I should say.

Because if you're working with somebody individually, if you're a manager or if you're, uh, in a relationship or you've got friends you can think about, okay, what is the version of me that, that helps us both to flourish here or, you know, maybe more wide than that. And for me, that's the, the big the big [00:32:00] takeaway that I hope people will get.

And just a, a, a seed to sow, and if that, that, uh, resonates with you, I think that's where our, our other our other work might be of interest. And if not, that's okay, too. 

Scott Allen: Well, Shane, thank you so much for your time today. I really, really appreciate it. And for listeners, we have some links in the show notes for you to learn more.

A foundational concept and topic when it comes to how we approach the work of leading, whether that's in an informal role or in a formal position of authority. And, uh, sir, let's do this again. Let's have another conversation. I appreciate you. 

Shane McLoughlin: That sounds great. I'm really grateful to be here and, uh, thanks to all the listeners for listening too.

Scott Allen: Okay. Be well.