Developmental Fitness with Dr. Keith Eigel

Keith Eigel, Ph.D. is the founder of The Leaders Lyceum (lye-see-um), an organization dedicated to leveraging challenges to accelerate the leaderʼs journey to sustained effectiveness. He is co-author of a forthcoming book on personality, leader effectiveness, and leveraging the diversity of perspective for team performance called The Vehicle.  Over the last twenty-five years, his research and writing have had a global reach, being cited in academic and best-selling publications on 5 continents. Keith and his team have honed a developmental curriculum that extends and leverages over sixty years of research to help executive and next-generation leaders measurably advance leader maturity, the best predictor of a leader’s effectiveness. Thousands of leaders from dozens of industries have been transformed by their experiences with The Leaders Lyceum. Additionally, he'sbeen an executive coach to several C-Level Fortune 50 leaders and University Presidents.

A Few Quotes From This Episode

• "I don't want my growth to be determined by the whims of circumstance. I want to have some voice, some proactivity in that."
• "Developmental maturity, vertical development, is about challenging the lens that we see the world through. This conversation may make the lens we have tomorrow slightly different. And if it has, that's vertical growth."
• "Learn to embrace your complaint — because it is the thing that we can't help but feel. And wherever our lens is, our pain meets us where we are. Then it opens the door."

Resources

• Book: The Map by Eigel and Kuhnert

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

• The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. Attend The Global Conference in Toronto, October 28-31.

About  Scott J. Allen

• Website
• Weekly Newsletter: Practical Wisdom for Leaders

My Approach to Hosting

• The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.

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Transcript

Scott Allen: Okay. Everyone, good afternoon, good morning, good evening, wherever you are in the world. Thank you so much for checking in.

I have a returning guest today. Super excited for this conversation. Keith Eigel and he and Karl Kuhnert were on probably episode 99, something like that. And so Karl and I had done an episode a few months back and I thought I wonder what Keith is thinking about what is he ruminating on right now as it relates to, to, to leadership and so sir, real, no, no real agenda today, but you are an individual I'd like to follow.

I'm interested in knowing what you are seeing, what you are thinking about, and so let's keep it open. Thank you for coming back. Maybe a little bit about you for listeners, so that they have that context. 

Keith Eigel: First of all, it's just an honor to be with you. Mentioned this before we got this started and just so impressed and grateful for the work that you do.

It keeps me involved in a lot of the things that are latest thinking. [00:01:00] And I so appreciate that. We are I think what dominates my thinking right now the most is just. How do we need to be rethinking the way we are growing people? 

We've had our models that we've had success with.

I think, I did not take an academic route out of graduate school. Really wanted to apply what we were doing and it's crazy that I'm in my 30th year this year. Personally interacted with probably 3000 leaders, maybe more north of that over that period of time. Been involved in their development.

We're with people for a long stretch of time when we're with them. And it's really how do we, I keep pushing the kind of development that matters. Further and further down in organizations to get people earlier in their careers. That's when they're, so for me, from my perspective, it's when they're so ready to develop, they're so ready to grow.

Not saying we don't grow when we get older, but the [00:02:00] work is different. 

Scott Allen: Yeah.

Keith Eigel: And in a lot of ways it's harder because there's more risk. 

Scott Allen: Ah. So 

Keith Eigel: true. 

Scott Allen: So 

Keith Eigel: I think that's what I've been thinking about the most lately is just how do we keep pushing this down in a way that really meets people where they are.

Scott Allen: So what are some experiments you've been running? What are some things you've been, I, again, I think you have done work with individuals for 30 plus years, written an incredible, I have it right here, the map. And so maybe we'll get there written on the topic of how do we help people develop, how do we help individuals grow?

What are some of the more recent experiments you've been running? Thinking about doing that work. What I'm so interested in also is just how we scale that. I'm sure that's something that, that you're thinking about. But 

Keith Eigel: yeah, 

Scott Allen: let's start with, I asked seven things there. Sorry. What experiments are you running?

Keith Eigel: May maybe Scott, to create just a little bit of context. The model [00:03:00] that, carl and I really developed this together very early on. 1996, we ran our first group with the food science and technology faculty at the University of Georgia. And we learned a lot, we did a lot of stuff wrong. We had some great clients that stuck with us during these early years.

We're trying to figure out, how do we not just teach leadership skills? That's really not our thing. And by the way, that is getting so accessible now. With video and with YouTube. And it's always been there with books, but there are ways to really get into skill development. Very efficiently, I think.

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Keith Eigel: But the harder work has always been how do we keep maturing people in ways that lead to greater and greater effectiveness, greater life satisfaction, more wellbeing, all these things. And so often that gets talked about, we talked about it a lot, is the vertical journey. Yep. More and [00:04:00] more I'm just talking about it as developmental maturity.

And and the, to contextualize this a little bit the methods that we developed to try and push this down in organizations were scaling the number of people that we were in front of at a time but always breaking them into small groups. Five people usually, but sometimes it was six some, sometimes it's four, depending on the group size.

And really teaching this group how to have conversations together, right? In a way that begins to challenge their meaning making. How do we get them to commit to bumping up against really small amounts of worry, fear, and resistance? One of the favorite people that you introduced me to. Through your podcast is John Morgan.

Scott Allen: Oh, yeah. Yeah. 

Keith Eigel: And oh my gosh, just the idea of constructive disorientation is. I is, it's gotta come in small doses or else it becomes [00:05:00] overwhelming and groups really do a great job, self-regulating. And so there's a little bit of a like getting my ego out of the way that I'm the guy in front of the group teaching all of these amazing things that are gonna move you in a direction.

And all of the beauty of what happened in the conversations with five people. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Keith Eigel: And so I think what we've really been trying to do to scale this opportunity is how can we facilitate groups of five people? Yeah. And there's the, there it is. I've got my copy as well. I don't know if you ever YouTube these, but it's it's such a beautiful summary of so much of this. Thank you. Thank you. I love that. The he's holding up, if you're just listening, he's holding up a copy of the map and really I think one of the things that I've been fascinated with ever since graduate school and ever since Bob Keegan's book, the Evolving Self, literally changed my life, the course of my life.

It was just. It was one of those rare [00:06:00] things that you read that just hits you at the right time, and everything is different after that, is that my passion was really how do I make this, how do we make this accessible to people who don't have the same tolerance? I have to sit in that 

Scott Allen: and 

Keith Eigel: read of all 

Scott Allen: itself, 

Keith Eigel: intellectual, theoretical.

Space. And yet there's so much practicality. That's a Jonathan Reams another one of your favorite guests, and he wrote a blurb for us in the, in, in the map is another one of these guys that just loves the theory and how can we apply it and all that kind of stuff. So I feel like if we've gotten good at something over 30 years of trying, it's been.

It is been trying to put this in everyday language. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Keith Eigel: In some cases for people who may not even have gone to college or finished college but they're, but they now find [00:07:00] themselves in their mid thirties or their early forties in their managing a team of people. And it was interesting I've been talking about leadership as just being, having influence with others in a direction on purpose for.

25 years at least. And I went back and re-listened to Oregon's podcast a few days ago. And he de, he defines it the same way. So I thought, oh my gosh, that's, I'm on solid ground then. That was really good. But it's like the, this how do I, how do we play a role in people continuing to grow?

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Keith Eigel: Because the, there are so many things in our world that want us to want to keep us in this kind of level. Three socialized outside in kind of space. 

Scott Allen: Yes. 

Keith Eigel: And we spend all of our time trying to figure out how to maintain the status quo. And yet the [00:08:00] developmental disruption is what leads to growth.

And so life is gonna throw everybody randomly and predictably at the same time, things that they can no longer avoid. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Keith Eigel: And for most people, that's gonna grow them to some degree. But one of the things I like to say is I don't want my growth to be determined by the whims of circumstance. I want to have some role in that.

I want to have some voice, some proactivity in that. And I think anybody who's listening to this podcast listening to your podcast regularly gets that they're trying to be proactive in their own growth. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Keith Eigel: And so what it takes is just a constant bumping up against the status quo. But then how do you process that?

And that's where I think the small group, the being in conversation, Morgan even points out that doing it in community with others. And Ellen Van Veer and her colleagues years ago at CCL really looked at the importance of developmental relationships, and that. We just the [00:09:00] reality is we just grow faster.

When we do it, reciprocally especially, but in community with others. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Keith Eigel: Don't try and process it all on our own. And you talk a lot about that. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. I mean it's such a fun, fascinating conversation. How do we design learning experiences that. Involve interventions. And again, gin's book is just incredible for that.

Whether it's, yeah, in he was my dissertation advisor. And so for instance, we went to the Museum of Tolerance in LA at a residency and. I'll never forget that experience. I can't tell you what happened in another other, a number of the residencies conversations we had, but this experience and then the conversation after that it was just absolutely impactful.

Behind me, there's a book by a gentleman named Fred Shuttlesworth Key Figure in the Civil Rights Movement and in Birmingham. And, [00:10:00] Fred came in and spoke to us. We read the book, we talked about it, and then he came in and he spoke. So I love the instructional design, the adult learning, the.

The thought experiment. And then what I love about your work and Carl's work is that you have been, okay, how do we create spaces for this to happen? For that we could call it vertical dev development, we could call it maturity for that to take place, I. Just to have great admiration for it, because I think if we put a more grounded, solid, clear, whole integrated, whatever, Thomas got, challenged me in a recent episode with my language, which I appreciated.

But another guest said, better human, better performance. 

Keith Eigel: Yeah. 

Scott Allen: Right. 

Keith Eigel: Yeah. And do you know, haven't we all. [00:11:00] Recognize that in the people that we've admired the most, the people that were easiest for us to follow. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. Yeah. 

Keith Eigel: Yeah. I think that's what connected with me so strongly about Keegan is everybody that I really admired in my life, he was explaining in a theory of adult development that we all just didn't get our adult card, and we're now all grownups.

That we keep growing as grownups, and that that and that when we're intentional about it, we can accelerate that growth. We've been trying to measure this for the last, I don't know, maybe nine years. And listen, this is sloppy research, but it's beyond the place of being anecdotal right now.

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Keith Eigel: Because the numbers are too big. So we've got about. 700 or so people that we have spent six months with on a six week interval, but full days over that six month and vertical [00:12:00]development underpins, theoretically underpins all of the work that we're doing and we're making that very plain to them.

We're starting with the map, like how do we grow? And putting that into words that hopefully they can really understand and integrate and see in their own journey to that point. And when they see that, they begin to buy into the more here's what's left, to, here's what the opportunity is left in front of me.

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Keith Eigel: And an understanding that this takes years, not weeks, right? That you, that the that the lens changing kind of experiences take place over time. With perseverance, but that we can accelerate it and we ask people to talk to, to go back and think of where they were when they came into the program before they understood the theory of developmental maturity.

We talk about all the things that we've. Put in front of them to challenge their current understanding [00:13:00] and the ways that they've been able to process this in the groups that they've been a part of, and how they're learning to coach each other in those times. And then we ask them where do they feel like they are now in the journey?

And it is amazing within a few tenths of a point of each other. Group after group, average after average, they are seeing almost a full half of developmental stage, usually from the mid to low threes, like 3.4, 3.3 in that range up to seeing themselves as more fully for, over this six month time stress.

If you put that in the normal course of development, that's a decade of growth. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Keith Eigel: And that's, there's a lot of, just recency effect. There's a lot of things that complicate this data. But one of the things that we've noticed [00:14:00] is that when we officially using subject object interview methodology, when we officially measure somebody.

To the best of our ability. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Keith Eigel: That when someone understands the developmental theory and sits with it for a, six weeks, 12 weeks, 20 weeks, whatever it is, that they are usually accurate at assessing where they are within one fifth of a developmental stage. 

Scott Allen: Wow. 

Keith Eigel: So even if we take, if we say they're, they were a fifth wrong and a fifth wrong, a fifth rung on the way in and a fifth rung on the way out, they're still seeing movement that is significant, right?

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Keith Eigel: And and so what we're seeing is that we can do things that actually put people in a place where they are seeing themselves, others, and the world in a way that is more developmentally mature. Than they did [00:15:00] when we first started working with them. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Keith Eigel: And a big part of that, and I remember this being a part of the podcast that Carl and I were on together around the book.

But it's the hard stuff that grows us. And so how do we find. The right hard stuff. 

Scott Allen: Yes. 

Keith Eigel: We can pull out of the drawer or pull out from under the carpet that we've swept it under that we've been ignoring, that we have been doing everything that we can do to try and maintain the status quo, to try and just make it all.

Okay. And do you know what Scott? I'm gonna be 64 this year. I'm still sweeping stuff under the rug. 

Scott Allen: Oh, it's fascinating. 

Keith Eigel: It's just, it's so much, it's so much easier, right? It is just, and yet it's not easier. It actually makes life more complicated if I [00:16:00] leave it under there for too long.

So it's like how do I pull the right stuff out? How do I pull anything out? Enough to just start thinking about how could I bump into my own worry, fear, and resistance, which is the reason that I've swept it under the rug. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Keith Eigel: How do I bump into that worry, fear, and resistance in a way that allows me to go this is very Keegan ask, this is very back to the how, the way we talk.

It's four columns kind of work that we've. Redesigned to make maybe a little more tangible from our perspective. But it's like, what could I do that I've been reluctant to do? 

What am I afraid well is gonna happen if I do that? Then we get into, so what do I do to protect myself from that fear?

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Keith Eigel: And what's that tell me that. My current set of values around my status quo. What are these things, which are a lot of times [00:17:00] safety, security, being liked, a lot of outside in sort of stuff, or for people who are more self-authored, more level four a, a lot of defending their own dogma. And, getting increasingly dogmatic in the way that they do that. And I like to talk a lot in front of groups especially 'cause it mainly just because it loosens people up about do they know any cranky old people. Because that's what happens if we stay stuck. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Keith Eigel: But the pull to maintain the status quo is a real thing.

And so how do we start to experiment really small steps with bumping up against the worry, fear, and resistance that keeps us from trying the thing that we've been reluctant to try. And so what we've been trying to do is just build that into platforms using the technology and the ways that people are learning now.

But not allowing them to do [00:18:00] that non-face-to-face, even if it's over zoom, but in person is even better to some degree, to start to share with people at the degree that they are ready to share. We don't force advanced kind of vulnerability. We let the vulnerability start where they need it to start, but even telling you about.

The hardest thing that I did last weekend, or my favorite thing last weekend, I'm sharing something of myself that we don't normally share at work. And so even if that's where they're starting, we push them with the curriculum to share more and more to start to share things from a personality report or start to share things about feedback they've gotten from other people, or eventually start talking about their worry, fear, and resistance.

And man, these groups. They self-regulate in, in a way that tends to accelerate growth. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Keith Eigel: So I feel like I've been talking too much, Scott. 

Scott Allen: No. I [00:19:00] think that's why you're here. It's, again, you're experimenting and I love that, and I have so much respect for that because how do we i've said for a long time, I've said it on the podcast, it's a thought experiment. But if we started with leader development at completely the wrong spot, teaching you about transformational leadership and situational leadership and giving you theories about leadership and how do we, to your point on youth, I had some K 12 folks on.

In recent times, and it's an episode that, that was just really a lot of fun. How do we build some habits of mind, whether that's critical reflection, how do you build the habit of metacognition? How do I create awareness in myself of when I'm feeling worry, fear, and resistance? Can I create that habit of mind?

Can I. I intentionally build a community around me of people that I can turn to. When I catch that, I have [00:20:00] worry, fear, and resistance to, and for me, that's my wife on a walk. That's Dr. Phil, who I see for a number of years now. I've built that team, but whether it's dialectical thinking, whether it's metacognition, habits of mind that facilitate that ongoing.

Critical reflection so that we do mature. Yeah, and I love how you're thinking about it. That if we're doing some of that work proactively, when the hard stuff does arrive, we are better. It's almost like you have a suit of armor and when some of the softer stuff arrives, we have a suit of armor I had a guest on and she said, her role is helping leaders be performance ready.

I think a lot of the leaders that I come across, what they're trying to do is Olympian. It's Herculean what some of them are navigating and they're not given the armor, they're not given the tools to be successful navigating some of that. They're told a session [00:21:00] about situational leadership, but that doesn't matter if my, if I'm agitated and I'm not prepared to withstand the stress and to withstand some of that work.

Right. 

Keith Eigel: Yeah, I've gotten so many, notes and emails from people over the years that when we learn how to grow in the really small challenges, we start to build a developmental fitness that when the big stuff hits I, I use this analogy and it's dumb, but it's if. If a couch potato goes out for his annual game of flag football with his buddies Monday, he is gonna be sore, maybe injured, and not one ounce stronger than he was the week before.

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Keith Eigel: But if you take someone who works out a couple of [00:22:00] times a week with intentionality. And they go out and play in that same game. Yep. It's actually adding to their strength. The bigger event is actually adding to their strength. And developmentally what I've heard is that it is leaning into the small, doable stuff that made the loss of a loved one or getting or losing their job or having difficulty with a child or in a relationship.

It's what is this supposed to be teaching me? There's almost a preparedness, and I think that's what you're getting at. 

Scott Allen: I love that phrasing, developmental fitness. This is a silly example. I don't know if it aligns with what you're where you're going, but you can let me know if it does or not.

But for a time, traveling is my. Is my greatest educator. And how I've been thinking about travel in recent times is that when, not if all of these [00:23:00] things go haywire with the airplane, the person next to me that is watching their karate movie on full. Full volume in the airport terminal with their feet up and shoes off, clicking their foot toenails at the same time, whatever it is that they're doing.

I now have reframed it as, okay, I'm going to like my response at this point is breathe. Just, it's almost like I've almost gotten, and when the flight is delayed, breathe. Now that doesn't mean I'm successful every time. I had a nine hour intensive two hour flight that turned into a nine hour on the plane experience where it was the next level training that I had.

I'd walked into the black belt experience the simulation, but it's reframing these little things and approaching them with a different mindset, I think. That. That again, to your point can train us for when some of the, now with my children, I can more easily go right into the breathing when I feel [00:24:00]myself getting and I can say, okay, you all, I'm at three, outta 10.

Just wanted you to know I'm at a three. Okay. It's a five. Just saying. 

Keith Eigel: Yeah. 

Scott Allen: The as Keegan back to him, the curriculum of life. If we can, I, because I think and what I love about what you're doing is we're putting people into dialogue and conversation that is building that muscle, developing that developmental fitness that is preparing them again.

Back to, can I notice when I'm experiencing worry, fear, or resistance? Just even that pause and that noticing, 

Keith Eigel: yeah. 

Scott Allen: Growth. That's incredible growth for many. 

Keith Eigel: Yeah. Yeah. 

Scott Allen: Sorry. No, I spoke too much. 

Keith Eigel: No. It was really good. It's really good. What you're really starting to think about it like al almost like a mindful practice.

Scott Allen: Yeah, 

Keith Eigel: right. Where you're trying to stay present to the things that and name those things in a [00:25:00] way. Keegan got us on this bandwagon a million years ago, but it's the thing I think that comes easiest to all of us is complaining or being frustrated, what the same thing, right?

And it's it's like pain in the human body. Try not to feel pain. If somebody stabs you in the hand with a pencil. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Keith Eigel: The you can't not feel the pain, but what's but what the pain is telling you physically is it's telling you there's something wrong here. And when we think about complaining, which is so easy. A lot of times we try and stuff it off to the side, but we know when we're frustrated. I think if we just get good at embracing our complaints, that puts us on the journey to understanding what matters to us that's not being realized right now.

Scott Allen: Yeah, 

Keith Eigel: And then [00:26:00] that sets us on the journey. Of I could do something about this, but I've been reluctant to do it. And why have I been reluctant? Because of the worry, fear, resistance. And it and again, this is a lot, very four columns if people are familiar with that. But the I think the thing that, I think the thing that getting good at asking yourself these questions when you're in the presence of mind to do it.

Scott Allen: Yes. 

Keith Eigel: Then when you do get in a nine hour airport situation, 

Scott Allen: no airplane. I was on a plane. You were on the 

Keith Eigel: plane for two hours. 

Scott Allen: But, it was so interesting. Also then and it's not to say that I was perfect in this moment. I, I'm texting my wife and letting her know and giving her updates.

But, and this is such a silly example, listeners, I understand, but you have to also, I, as I'm observing how other people are reacting some people are doing more drinks, some people are just on their phone loudly, just [00:27:00] complaining to people. Some people are being jerks to the stewardess who has no control over the situation whatsoever.

And so it was just in it's, you begin to open your eyes to, okay. My mind is here, what can I control and how can I navigate this effectively as possible? And how are other people responding, which is probably not serving them well, probably making the situation worse. 

Keith Eigel: Yeah. 

Scott Allen: So it's, I don't know, I, I.

I would complain about the airport and the airline and all of this. And now I just look at it as, okay, I'm after that nine hour flight we landed. No doubt, Keith. And and there was no gate attendant to like, let us into the, I'm like, 

Keith Eigel: beautiful. Finish to the story. 

Scott Allen: Right? Another deep breath. Slow down.

It's probably gonna be about 20 minutes. 

Keith Eigel: Yeah. Isn't it funny the way that leads us if we're [00:28:00] aware 

Scott Allen: Yeah, 

Keith Eigel: if we're aware of, if we're mindful. 

Eventually that experience can shape your authorship. Of the kind of person that you want to be? 

Scott Allen: Yes, because I 

Keith Eigel: want to be and the kind of person you want to be in front of others.

And what's the influence that you want to have on them? And if I start owning

my understanding and maturity. In a funny way, what you were talking about is there were more mature and less mature responses. But if I'm trying to own my maturity in that situation, does that start to, without me even evangelizing it in some way, does it start to change some of the people around me?

What's the story I want to tell? That always demands an inside out answer. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. Yeah. 

Keith Eigel: And if that changes our lens in one little way. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Keith Eigel: We've taken a step on the vertical journey. 

Scott Allen: Yep. And just go [00:29:00] to my son and I also had an experience at O'Hare in January or December, and that was another one of those experiences.

And so what am I now modeling for my son? 

Am I. Ordering four more drinks and getting drunk on the airplane. Am I bitching and complaining? Am I having a temper tantrum or am I looking at him and saying, this is my, this is the place where I practice patience. It I've entered a class I didn't know I was going to tonight.

Keith Eigel: Yeah. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. Class is in session, so 

Keith Eigel: class 

Scott Allen: is in session. 

Keith Eigel: Yeah. 

Scott Allen: And it does have a very real impact I think at home with our partners with loved ones. It's. And again, by no means am I, have I arrived, I've just come to the conclusion that, that's so again, the curriculum of life, if we're, there's all these opportunities to practice if we have that mindset and if we see through that lens, right?

Keith Eigel: Yeah. [00:30:00] Yeah. You've made me realize that. That I maybe don't talk about. We've talked about, when people ask me what I do, I say I help grownups keep growing in the context of leadership. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Keith Eigel: But I think the more important thing is that w we're helping people see what it takes to grow, not just. Not just coaching, holding accountable, creating theory, space and structure for them to process whatever's going on right now, but that this skillset, 

Scott Allen: yes, 

Keith Eigel: of growing vertically becomes life changing in ways where a bad airport experience is, will maybe provide you one of the most profound teaching experiences with your child.

That, that may not show up for them for a couple of years, but they're like, man, I remember that time in the airport when dad X, Y, and Z that, and [00:31:00] everybody else around us was going crazy. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Keith Eigel: And that's leadership, man. That's leadership that's having influence with someone in a direction on purpose.

Scott Allen: Yes. And again, Scott is not perfect and has not arrived, but. 

Keith Eigel: None of us have. That the, that's the beau that's the beauty of this. And the further along the journey we get, I think the more we realize how much there is to go. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. And this whole thing around developmental fitness, I don't know how well you have that developed out, but at least where my mind goes, what are the different exercises we can engage in that?

Produce that fitness, that facilitate that fitness, that facilitate the growth. Another silly example is I got an Aura Ring Uhhuh, and I don't know if you have a Whoop or an Aura ring or an Apple watch, but it has Yeah. So much data and that in and of itself also has helped [00:32:00] me. It's shifted my behavior, helped me prioritize sleep in a little bit of a different way.

It's helped and so that has had an impact and it's an example of technology having an impact of how do I. Better prioritize recovery. So I am the best version of myself because it, according to the data. Yesterday was a big day. So what am I doing now? And so again, that is a piece I think of developmental fitness of I could drive harder or I can recover and be the best version of myself.

And I don't know. I love that conversation of what are these little interventions that can help us? It's almost like a gym. You walk around and there's a bunch of different tools that help you build strength in different ways. I, it's cool. 

Keith Eigel: Yeah, no, I love it. That's what we've tried to do for the last 30 years is create any the, I was thinking, obviously, because I knew we were gonna have this conversation today about the way [00:33:00] your podcast has influenced my growth in ways, and we've got these different points of application.

To grow to use, to build developmental strength. We've got these circumstantial things that are going on around us all the time. Some of those are at work, some of those are at home, and that's us. Those are usually the things we complain about, right? Yes. And then if we deal with that complaint the right way, it can.

By 

Scott Allen: like a keto we shift the energy. 

Keith Eigel: We do. All of a sudden we're thinking about, oh, now I really understand what I value better. What could I do to more fully realize that thing that I value? What do I worry, fear, and resist? How am I protecting myself? If we get into that pattern, we can do it on almost.

Anything that's bugging us. But another way we grow is challenging our belief system, what we hold to be true about the way the world works, about the way we work about all of these things. And that's where [00:34:00] technology, oh my gosh. It's just opened doors to the things that we can see. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Keith Eigel: But that even your even your AA ring is helping you to challenge the way the lens.

You had saw yourself in the midst of the way you were taking care of yourself. 

Scott Allen: Yes. 

Keith Eigel: In a way. But if you real, this is all part of this developmental process of the that and maybe, I wish I had said this clearer early in the podcast, but developmental maturity, vertical development is about challenging the lens that we see the world through.

Because you have a lens right now. I have a lens right now. This conversation may make the lens that we have tomorrow slightly different in a way. And if it has, that's vertical growth. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Keith Eigel: And we have grown. But if the more we can understand that challenges our friend. That that, that.

I just [00:35:00] love Morgan's. I th I think he's, I think he says it's constructive disorientation, right? Yeah. Constructive disorientation. I think that's right. 

And and then it's all around us. So when my wife, who is just amazing in case she's listening to this and she's amazing. Even if she wasn't listening to this 

Scott Allen: good save 

Keith Eigel: When she.

Ask me to do something and I'm thinking, I don't, that's not what I feel like doing right now. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Keith Eigel: I've got an opportunity in that moment to think about why. 

Scott Allen: Yes. 

Keith Eigel: What is it about the way I'm built right now, the way I'm seeing the world right now, what is it? 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Keith Eigel: And when I'm at my best, I'm doing that not on a daily basis, but on a more regular basis than not.

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Keith Eigel: And when I'm in my own little self-protective, keep my status quo, here's what I want to do.

Scott Allen: My needs, my, yeah. Like in the moment. 

Keith Eigel: And you [00:36:00] can have your needs from any level on the journey. It's, it becomes a little more likely that you more naturally oriented toward others at level five.

But up, up until then, and yeah, so we didn't know what this conversation was gonna be about, and it turns out to be that, that it's all around us all the time. 

Scott Allen: Ah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna title the episode that for a ri a while I was thinking, worry, fear, and resistance. But I like that it has a everywhere, all at once

Keith Eigel: yeah.

Scott Allen: Vibe is good. What was that Academy? Yeah. Yeah. Okay so I think you may have just said it, but. I as we begin to wind down the conversation, what's the practical wisdom for you here? And as you reflect on our dialogue, what just really is present as you think about the conversation? 

Feel free to take your time.

I'll edit this, the pause out. 

Keith Eigel: Yeah. So the practical wisdom for the listener is that it always feels like that's where you're trying to go with this. 

Scott Allen: Yep yep. Practical [00:37:00] wisdom for the listener. 

Keith Eigel: I think learn to embrace. Don't become a complainer. 

Nobody likes complainers. But learn to embrace your complaint because that it to me, it all starts there.

It. It is the thing that is that, that we can't help not feel. 

There are a lot of double negatives in that, but I think I got it right. We can't not feel that. Yeah. We can't not feel that pain. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Keith Eigel: And if everything were great, we wouldn't be feeling any pain. 

So it's like wherever our lens is, how, wherever we are on this beautiful journey and all the beautiful places on the journey, even the middle school places on the journey are beautiful.

When you're in middle school, that's, it's a problem If you're 35 and you're still in middle school in terms of the way you make sense of the world, but it's 

Scott Allen: 65 or 75 or 81. 

Keith Eigel: Yeah, that's bad. 

Scott Allen: That's bad. 

Keith Eigel: Our pain meets us where we are, [00:38:00] right? And then it opens the door.

And by the way if we did this with every complaint and every frustration, I think we'd be, need to be locked up. It we go crazy. But the idea of thinking, what if I leaned into this week, right? What have I. What have I thought through? What have I talked about with someone else? What have I tried to process to see what I could be doing differently and why I'm scared to do it differently?

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Keith Eigel: Or if not scared, at least resistant. I think that's the practical wisdom from my perspective. I,

Scott Allen: it's there, it's right in front of us a lot of the time. And I love what you just said. It can't be everything. It's that'll make us go crazy. But what are some of those important things that we can lean into a little bit, get curious, slow down question and begin to reframe and or at least explore, right?

Keith Eigel: Yeah. 

Scott Allen: Thinking partners. [00:39:00] So 

Keith Eigel: if there's one other little thing, Scott, and we started here a little bit. Don't go it alone. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. Yep. 

Keith Eigel: Don't go it alone. There, there is great value in reflection, journaling, thinking through privately walks. I try and engage in all of those behaviors. But you, because of this conversation I thought of things and had to say things that I wouldn't have had to say if we weren't, if we weren't trying to talk about something.

Yeah. 

Scott Allen: And that's a part the w the wisdom of GaN that it has to be with others. It's, and I don't think it has to be all the time. I, and Thomas Hill in that episode talked about how he reflects and he writes, that's great, but what is it that with you? What is it for you? And I think with others some of the time, I think it's a critical part of the learning.

Keith Eigel: Yeah. It's not to the exception of processing on your own. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Keith Eigel: But it is I mean [00:40:00] I'm the research on all that is, so we don't even talk about it. I don't even know who's research researching it now, if anybody, but be, because the research seems so complete back in the nineties when it was like being in developmental relationships accelerates development.

Scott Allen: Yeah. Yeah. Sir, I appreciate you. I 

Keith Eigel: I appreciate you 

Scott Allen: love the conversation and we'll do it again. I really hope so. Hopefully it's not gonna take another 200 episodes, so 

Keith Eigel: I 

Scott Allen: maybe we'll love that. Be working on together and we could explore, who knows, 

Keith Eigel: oh, what an honor that would be to just be in conversation with him.

Scott Allen: Yep. Yep. Okay. For listeners, there's some links in the show notes. Please check those out. And you know what, Keith, we'll do it again. Thank you so much. 

Keith Eigel: Thank you, Scott. 

Scott Allen: Okay. Be well.