The Fog of Work with Adam Tarnow

Adam Tarnow is a leadership development specialist, keynote speaker, and author of The Fog of Work. With a unique blend of humor, humility, and hard-won insight, Adam helps professionals get out of their own way, navigate complexity, and lead with confidence.

A recovering CPA and former public accountant, Adam now heads up the Leadership Development Practice at PeopleWorks International, where he equips leaders to thrive in today’s fast-paced, people-driven workplaces. He’s spoken to audiences across industries—from manufacturing to professional services to education—and has a gift for making complex leadership ideas simple, practical, and unforgettable.

He earned his accounting degree from Clemson University and holds a “Ducktorate” from Disney University (yes, it’s real… no, it’s not accredited). He’s been married since 2003, is the proud dad of two teenage boys, and believes any day is better when it starts with coffee and a New York Times crossword puzzle.

Whether he’s speaking about leadership, communication, optimism, or culture, Adam’s goal is always the same: cut through the noise and help good people become great leaders.

A Few Quotes From This Episode

• "You are being held accountable for outcomes you know you do not fully control.” 
• “I didn’t need a new job. I needed a new system for handling the inevitable stress that goes with leadership.” 
• “Your story doesn’t have a villain. It just has a valley.” 

Resources

• Book: The Fog of Work

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

• The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. Attend The Global Conference in Toronto, October 28-31.

About  Scott J. Allen

• Website
• Weekly Newsletter: Practical Wisdom for Leaders

My Approach to Hosting

• The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.

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Transcript

Scott Allen 0:00

Okay, everybody, welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for checking in wherever you are in the world. I have uh Adam Tarno, and he has written a book, The Fog of Work. Excited to jump into this conversation. Adam, I have not had a chance to read the book yet. I'm excited to learn about it. More importantly, my listeners to learn about it. So before we jump in and talk about the book today, sir, why don't you tell listeners a little bit more about you?

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Yes. I just I'm that classic story of the CPA-turned artist, just a very normal story that's out there like that. So yeah, I started my career as a CPA. It was actually a third, I am a third generation accountant. Grandfather was an accountant, dad was an accountant. My birthday's April 16th. So I had to start my career there. I showed up at Clemson and they were like, they looked at all that and they said, Yeah, we'll just go ahead and uh enroll you in the accounting department right now. And I did, I loved it, right? It was a great place to start my career. So spent about 10 years as a CPA, eight of those in audit, two of those in industry. Moved here to Dallas, grew up on the East Coast and the DC area, and then went to school in South Carolina at Clemson. And then moved out here to the Dallas area where I live now. I moved out here in 02 to go to grad school. Actually, took a big career turn and did 10 years in the nonprofit space with a face, faith-based nonprofit here in town. And the whole time I was doing that, I started to do some leadership development training, primarily in the accounting industry. Because when I was with the nonprofit, I just left the accounting industry. So I was training CPAs how to communicate and how to be better leaders. And I did it all volunteer for the first couple of years because I just I loved it. It was so fun

Meet Adam Tarno And His Path

SPEAKER_00 1:40

to teach those topics. Those were so relevant and not to get too sound too cheesy, just life transforming. You to be able to communicate better and lead better. And it had a direct impact on their life. And then that led to, hey, we do you want to speak at this conference? To then, hey, will you come speak over here to our business? Which then led to a client, which then led to after 10 years of doing it on the side, I decided in 2020 to make the leap. And this is what I've been doing full time since about the summer of 2020.

Scott Allen 2:09

For years, I taught MBAs and MSAs, and the accountants were always my favorite. They came prepared, they were ready to go, they were detail-oriented, they followed instructions.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Yes, that's exactly right. And that's exactly right. So I have all of those tendencies, and and with the artist part was really interesting because when I went over to the in the nonprofit world, I ended up my career, the last stent before I did what I'm doing now was leading a bunch of creatives. I was leading our creative department, and all the creative side and the artistry side was I got to do that too. So what I do now is this great blend. You've got to be creative, and then you also have to be organized.

Scott Allen 2:52

Okay, so tell us about Memorial Day 2009. Let's start.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Yeah. So I yeah, I was so this was in my second stand, it was around year 10 of being a CPA and CPAs as auditors, you have these busy seasons. And I made it through another busy season. This was maybe number seven. And for me, busy season was a time to just put all the personal life stuff aside, just stay up late, get up early, ignore all personal self-leadership protocol to just get the deadlines. No boundaries met. Yes, no boundaries at all. So get it met. So we'd meet the deadline around April 30th, and then the first couple of weeks of May are always you're still kind of riding adrenaline and feeling good. And then what would happen, Scott, is I had this that third week of May, I started to experience pretty often what I would call my meltdowns in May is just I'd reached that breaking point, that burnout point where just the stress, it all once all the adrenaline was gone, I just all of that bad protocol caught up to me. Wow. And that's when I would start questioning my life choices. Why am I doing this? And none of it was really, I just, it seemed like every promotion things were getting harder and harder, which just didn't fit with my preconceived notions of what leadership was supposed to be like. I thought things were supposed to be getting easier. So I wake up on one day, it was like the Thursday before Memorial Day of 09. And Scott, it was the first time I think I had ever done this. I just sent an email to my bosses and said, I'm not coming in. I'm not doing well, and I'm not coming in. And so I'll be in after Labor Day. I don't need a three-day weekend.

The 2009 Burnout Breaking Point

SPEAKER_00 4:31

I want a five-day weekend. And they were great. My bosses were awesome and they handled it so well. And said, Great, we're so sorry you're not doing well. Sounds like you need a few days. It's our pleasure to give those to you. Let's talk when you get in on Tuesday. And long story short, I sat and they were very kind and they were like, What's going on? How are you? And I was basically telling them, I have, I can't handle the stress. I don't know how to handle the stress. My only way that I know how to handle the stress is stay up later, get up earlier, and work harder. Just do more. Wow. And I just remember as I reflect on that conversation, it was they basically were nodding their heads going, Yeah, we get it. And then it was, yeah, you got to figure out a way to handle that. Wow. And as I reflect back on it now, I don't blame those leaders at all. Like I said, they were phenomenal. It was a great firm to work for. But I also think it was a little bit of a missed opportunity because what I know I what here's what I what I believe they possessed, yeah, which was a way, a system for dealing with workplace stress, and especially that stress that the middle manager, that mid-level leader feels. I knew they had a system because they had made it through it. And what I needed was to know their system. And so I candidly, when I walked away from that conversation and they were like, Yeah, you got to figure it out. That was the start of me quitting. And so within a year after that conversation, I had moved on. And as I said, I made that I didn't just leave that firm. I was blaming the industry. I thought this was a quirk of public accounting. And I said, I'm going in the nonprofit space. I'm getting out. I just don't want this stress anymore. And the first year at the nonprofit Scott, things were amazing. And I thought I'd won the lottery.

Scott Allen 6:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

And then what was strange is then they promoted me to a leadership position. And I found I was right back where I was as a CPA. And that's where I was like, oh no, I think I've made a huge mistake, maybe, because I thought it was the industry was the reason I was experiencing so much stress. And that was starting to open my eyes. No, all leadership positions have stress. And what I really needed was a system. What I thought I needed was a new job. And what I know now that I've been able to hopefully capture a lot in the fog of work was I didn't need a new job. I needed a new system for handling the inevitable stress that goes with leadership. And so that all came to a head there in 2009.

Scott Allen 6:54

So I know you've spent years working with middle managers across industries. So what's the single most challenging part of their job? Yeah. And why is that why is that grinding people down? What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Yeah. I think, you know, let's go ahead and just say I think this is the single most difficult part. I'd call it in the book, I call it the exposure or the vulnerability that you feel. And I think it's very specifically it's this is being held accountable for outcomes and results that they know they don't fully control.

Scott Allen 7:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

And so every mid-level leader, you've got to collaborate across departments, especially large organizations, to get anything done. You've you need other departments, you need peers to change their to-do list to focus on your to-do list. And you need upper level management to potentially alter some deadlines and give you some resources. It is just that that whole herding squirrels metaphor. It just feels like this massive project. And then, but but then very candidly, your job's on the line. Your reputation is on the line. You are going to be judged on work that other people do. And I think that's a very uncomfortable feeling for a lot of mid-level leaders, and is where so much of the stress comes from is they know, oh dang, I'm not just responsible for my to-do list anymore, like when I was an individual contributor. I'm responsible for this whole department. And I'm being held accountable for outcomes that I know I don't have full control over. And that is a very scary situation.

Scott Allen 8:23

All of the responsibility and zero authority. Yes, that's right. That's right. To get things done. So you make this provocative claim in the book.

Why Middle Management Feels Exposed

Scott Allen 8:34

There's no villain in the metal manager's story, just a valley. Would you talk a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_00 8:40

Yeah. So when I if I go back from 2009, let's go back to maybe 1999, maybe 2000, when I did get my first promotion. There was a conversation I had with a boss when I got my first promotion of public accounting from a staff auditor to a senior auditor. And the firm just sent out emails saying, here's all the new seniors, and my name was included on that one email. And then I get into a meeting with my with one of my bosses. He was like, Hey, I saw your name on that email. You just got promoted. And I said, Yeah. And he said, Congrats, your life just got a lot more difficult. And it was a little, it was now, it was on brand for this guy because most CPA is very snarky and just kind of that dry, pessimistic humor. Yes. He sat there and he just kind of described for me this thing and he drew this picture that I just call the valley. And just imagine a U shape, right? And he just said, Hey, you yes, went up on the orc chart. So you went from staff to senior, but in reality, you've gone down into a valley. And you need to know that valley because of the way problems always roll downhill in the valley. And so you've got your team on one side and your bosses on the other side. And he just drew this whole thing out. And Scott, this was like 25, 30 years ago, and I never forgot it. I never forgot that drawing. And I started sharing it in my workshops, and people had the same reaction that I did. And it just became this metaphor for middle management for me of just going, this is why it you're held accountable for these outcomes you don't fully control. You got problems coming from all sides, you're in the valley. And it doesn't meet our expectations.

No Villain Just The Valley

SPEAKER_00 10:10

It just doesn't. Because again, a lot of I don't think I was alone in thinking that every promotion you just assume life will get better. But management, especially in the middle, is so stinking hard. And I went through, like I did in 09 and the years after, just looking for a villain. And I blamed the industry, I blamed bosses, I blamed my team, I blame myself. And then I had a dear friend come into my life a 2016, 17, 18 time frame and just helped me just realize listen, the story, your story doesn't have a villain. It just has a valley. You're just a leader. And these are every valley has tricky terrain and unpredictable weather, and you just have to learn how to deal with that. And I'm going to give you the system. And so he started to teach me the system for dealing with all of this. But I just find that message to be really comforting to a lot of mid-level leaders, just to go, it's not your fault. You didn't do anything wrong. The experience of stress doesn't mean you're broken. It's more of a, I like to say it's more of a geographical reality than it is a personal one. And so yeah, the villain is really not there. It's just you said yes to leadership. And this goes hand in hand with leadership. As he was speaking, I this it's not your fault.

Scott Allen 11:19

It's that line from Goodwill Hunting where Robin Williams is hugging Matt Damon and saying it's not your fault.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

It's not your fault. Yes. And it's every mid-level leader, right? That's the meme. We gotta get that meme and put that out there. That they just need to know you didn't do anything wrong. Now it doesn't mean it's easy, but it's just good to know who the villain is because that'll determine how you're gonna try to solve this.

Scott Allen 11:45

Well, okay, and so you have this fog clearing sentence. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:49

Talk a little bit about that. Yeah, I think the valley's all about control. Like I said, not being held responsible for results that you don't fully control, which we get into a little bit of psychology in the book. Generally speaking, when humans face situations where they don't feel like they have a lot of control, it's uncomfortable, very natural. And we have a couple responses. You can either, I and I just had some fun with it. You can either freak out and just be the classic control freak, micromanager, intimidator, or you can check out. That was me. I love to check out. You can become a blamer, a cynic, you can give up, you can always come up with a great excuse. And my friend Randy helped me see those are two very well-worn paths in the valley. They never get you through it. Uh, the better way, and we just had some fun with it, is just figure it out. And so you figure it out by really going through this one sentence. And I call it the fog clearing sentence. And I just it just goes this way you go, you start off and you just say, I don't control blank, and you spend some time there and you figure out all the things I don't control in this situation, but there's a comma there. So I don't control blank, comma, but I do control, and then it's very important to evaluate your situation and identify everything that you and you alone can control. You don't need budget, you don't need approval, these are things you can do. Nice. So I don't control blank, but I do control blank, comma, and then it's so I will blank, period. And there's something very helpful about going through it in that methodical way of recognizing what you don't control, which oftentimes is the end result. You just don't control the end result.

Scott Allen 13:20

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

But you do control a ton of inputs, there's

The Fog Clearing Sentence

SPEAKER_00 13:24

a lot of processes that you do control and things you do control, so I will, and then that keeps you really focused on agency. So I like it. It's like this you're looking at reality of what I don't do control, and then you have a lot of agency. And it's just reminding you there's always something you can do in any given situation. And it's also very calming because it's just reminding yourself there are a lot of things I do have control over right now. I'm not a full victim. And so it's been really helpful over the past few years to teach that sentence and to see all the different use cases and how helpful it is.

Scott Allen 13:54

I think to your point, it can get really big in our heads. Even as I I was literally having lunch with a CEO today of a pretty successful manufacturing organization. And I just I said to him, You must go to bed with the 100, 150, 200 questions in your head, right? That yeah, and he's more. Try three, try four. Yeah, exactly. And I just I so we got into this really, it can feel really big. And I think at times I love that framing because it a makes it a little bit smaller, and it and then also to your point, it provides some focus. Okay, here's what I can impact, here's what I can control, and I'm gonna put my attention there because that's where my attention needs to be. That's probably where my team's attention needs to be. Yes, because if I am not clear and grounded and focused, my team by no means is clear and grounded and focused. Not at all. So I think I I love that framing because it makes it small and makes it realistic and focuses the work. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_00 15:03

I absolutely. And then as I was what I found is so that my friend Randy Marshall that kind of taught me that framework, I just thought this guy's brilliant. He came up with it. This is where have you been? He was a Mr. Miyagi and I was Daniel and needed needed to learn karate. And so as I started to get into it, Scott, what was really surprising, and I think Randy would be the first one to admit this. In fact, I know he he would, is this basic framework has been around and helping people for thousands of years. It really goes, one of the first known like set of writings on it was from the great Stoic philosopher with Epictetus and his what we call the handbook. And the Stoics would call it the dichotomy of control. Yeah. So life is filled with two things you don't control and things you do control. Stay focused on those. And it was really interesting to just trace that basic philosophy through a lot of history and to see how many names were teaching something very similar. Everything from like St. Augustine to Renee Descartes to Victor Frankel and logotherapy to Julian Rodder and the locus of control. And it goes, even the modern day thought leaders that are out there, extreme ownership with Jocko is kind of control your controllables. James Clear with Atomic Habits is about, hey, just focus on what you and you alone can control. The best-selling book last year, Mel Robbins, was essentially going, hey, remember, you don't control people, just control what you can control, which is you. And so I what gave me comfort with that was two things, and maybe it's just my CPA brain, but it gave me comfort to know that this basic philosophy is not new, which means it's durable. Like it's been real, it's been helping a lot of people through a lot of different situations for a long period of time. And it also was helpful to go, I nobody's really come up with anything better. So I think this is the tool, like my brand would call it, the control your controllable system. Yeah, this is what I needed in 09 was this simple system to go when the fog rolls in and you feel like you are very stressed, this grounds you, right? This keeps you focused.

Scott Allen 17:07

And what's so interesting about that, I think, Adam, I wish there was, and maybe there is, and I just haven't come across it yet. And this is probably episode 330 something. I haven't found it yet. But what you're saying there is so and so very important. There's probably that statement, and let's just go 40 others that would be so darn helpful for the brand new manager who was in the position you were in. And it's just like uh, hey, you know what? Here's what you're about to walk into. Here are 40 very useful, durable, long-lasting concepts that are going to help you frame up this experience. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

Yeah.

Scott Allen 17:47

And again, I don't know of what that book is. If it listeners, for those of you who are listening, if you have that resource, by all means, but I think we my mission is how do we better prepare people to serve in these really challenging roles? And I think it's I think while durable and while many people over time have talked about it, for some somehow it didn't get to you. That's right. You needed it, and someone else out there in the field right now needs it, and it's not getting to them. And we aren't preparing, whether it's in a CPA firm or an architecture studio or the phlebotomist who literally was just promoted as I spoke. They're not being set up for success. And so I I love it. I absolutely love it because I think it's important.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

Yeah, you're exactly right, Scott. And I know that there's a lot of let's just call on the senior level and C-suite leaders that are listening and listen. I hope they buy the book and I hope they read it. Let me just spoil it. You probably already know everything in the book because you've made it

A Teachable System For Leaders

SPEAKER_00 18:46

through the valley. So where you are in your career, you would just nod your head in agreement, going, yeah, that's exactly what you do. You just control your controllables. You figure out what you can and cannot control. So I don't doubt that most senior level and C-suite level leaders know what's in the book. What I do doubt is their ability to articulate that specific system to other people. Yes. And that's where I think this tool is helpful for them. It's going, this is what I do. Here, he wrote it down. This in the simplest way possible is how I handle every busy season, every board meeting, every every time we've got to have a reduction in force, every every tricky situation I face, I'm basically running this fog clearing sentence. This is how you do it.

Scott Allen 19:27

Exactly. And that's exactly the wisdom, the lessons of experience. However, we want to describe this, that isn't getting to those first time and those even those multi-year middle managers. I don't think we do a great job of setting up those people for success. We put them in a couple day course and then wonder why they're struggling a little bit. Yeah. Well, I was a CPS, like looking at me, Scott Allen, and saying, hey, go do taxes. Yeah. We gave you a five-week in classroom. Yeah, we gave you a class.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

We gave you a textbook. That should be it.

Scott Allen 20:01

Go keep going. No, I'm gonna ruin people's financial outlook. That's right. That's right. And I think the corollary is we have people ruining culture. We have people ruining engagement. We have people because we're putting people in positions of authority and they aren't prepared well.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Yeah. Or they for some reason are still maybe on those well-worn paths of they themselves are their freaker outers or their checker outers. Yes. And then that's what people are watching. Because I'll be honest with you, the freak out, the person who freaks out, that kind of works sometimes, right? You can be loud enough, intimidating enough, controlling enough to have some maybe some pseudo-wins, things that you got it accomplished. There was maybe a few scars left. And if that's what's being modeled, then that's what you're going to continue to raise up. Yeah.

Scott Allen 20:55

Even as we're speaking right now, someone somewhere in the world is driving to work and they're walking into this space. And so what do you want them to know? How do you think about that?

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Let's give them the goodwill hunting hug, right? I think that's just it's hug a middle manager day. That's what we need to start next. Should right? Yeah, it's not your fault.

Scott Allen 21:20

There's no middle manager. We have administrative assistance week and stuff of this nature. We need middle manager.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Bosses Day. Yeah, why not have middle manager day? So that'll be the one thing everybody remembers from this is the hug and middle manager day. That'll happen. Now, listen, so Randy used to say it this way, and it was helpful. He would just be like, Adam, just remember, you can only do what you can do, which was another way of saying just control your controllables today. Yeah, that that's all you can do. And so I just think there's something that visual of just taking that deep breath and going, okay, what do I control right now? And that's where I need to be focused today. And I think that's the part that as I've gone around Around the country and had opportunities to share this message with others. I think that's the hope and that people are feeling with this. And that's great because they obviously all the stats with where mid-level leaders are right now, they could use some hope.

Scott Allen 22:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

They seem to be the most burnt out, stressed out about the snap group of all the professional demographics. And I'm sure you've probably talked about this on the podcast, but some of the new research coming out that's showing that Gen Z standing on the other side of the valley, looking down into the valley, is going, I don't even know if I want to be a manager. And that's that's pretty

Relationships As The Real Priority

SPEAKER_00 22:35

scary to think about that because middle managers are, we need them. They're the ones that get stuff done. And so yeah, so that one that's driving in a little stressed, I think it's that. If it's like the C-suite senior level leader driving in, I think it's just going, Hey, I do if somebody comes up to me and tells me they're burnt out, do I have an opportunity? That's an opportunity for you to teach a system to them of just going, you can empathize. I'm sorry, maybe need a day off or two. Let's get you some days. And when you feel like you got your feet under you, I want to follow up and I want to teach you how to deal with these stressful situations. I I think you probably know more on how to handle that than you give yourself credit for. And don't be afraid to have an opportunity to give them that system.

Scott Allen 23:19

Yeah. But I think the most recent Gallup 2026 global report, since 2022, manager engagement has dropped by nine points. So manager engagement. And again, it's I don't believe we, the collective we are doing a good job of setting these individuals up to be successful. And I do want to make one more just kind of observation because I love what you're doing. And I think at times in this middle management role, the stuff, it's very seductive. Attending the next meeting that was just added to your calendar or focusing on the stuff, on the immediacy of all of the things, all the research on leadership and management suggests. And this is my good friend Nathan Eva, who's in Australia. It comes down to relationships. And one thing you can control is the quality of relationships you have with your people. And priority. And are you carving out that time and protecting that time and even potentially letting some others down? Because what you can control is that quality of relationship. And that those individuals feel seen, successful, supported, that they feel safe. And they will they'll be in your corner if that's how they feel. But if you get seduced, and you will be, it's like it's not obviously sexually, but yeah all that stuff is seductive. You know what? It takes your eye off the ball very easily. And the ball is all about those relationships. If you want to be perceived as a great manager or great leader, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

Yeah. Oh, that's you're so right on because it's the whole manager game and it's a conversation for another day. It's a whole new game, but it's no longer about that technical proficiency as much as it is around relational savvy. And you know, it corporate America's strange that we take the A players and we make them leaders because they were really good practitioners. And so that's an identity shift for a lot of new leaders. And I love what you said there that this is always in your control. Yes. You don't need budget approval to engage with your team. No, you don't need budget approval for that. You don't need uh another department to do anything to engage with your team, and those things go a long way. So I love that. That's a great reminder.

Scott Allen 25:43

That is the that is I I just came across a manager a couple weeks back, and he said, Look, I send a note to the team every Friday, and I call it the Friday five, and I highlight five wins we had from the week, thank them for their work, and send them off into the weekend with a little bit of good news. Well, you know what? Yes, right. I mean, yes, that that is gold. Yeah. Is it obviously, of course, there's tasks that we have to get to, but it's a hell of a lot more important than some of the other things we would spend that 10-15 minutes on, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Yeah. Getting to inbox zero or something like that, right?

Scott Allen 26:18

Exactly, exactly, 100%. And I think all that other stuff can be so incredibly seductive and take our eye off that relationship ball. And that's another thing that I don't think we oftentimes because even when you think about some of those busy seasons, you worked with some individuals who not only were technically competent, but they were really good at building a team and making you feel like you mattered. And you probably worked above and beyond for that individual. Totally. There was other individuals that probably used a little bit of fear, intimidation, and you clocked out as quickly as you could quickly as you could. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

Yep, you're exactly right. Are you sure you didn't start as a CPA? No, come on. That's insider info right there.

Scott Allen 27:01

Okay, so I always end our conversations with first of all, before we do that, anything else you want to say about the book before we begin to wind down?

SPEAKER_00 27:10

No, I I no, I we got most of it in there. Obviously, there's deeper dives on all of that stuff, only talking about it for 20 minutes. But listen, that image of the valley is right there on page one. I think it's it's an easy read, it's a fast read. I think it's really helpful and useful. And I hope it's a tool that a lot of people will take advantage of. Oh, love it. Love it. Okay.

Scott Allen 27:28

So in your estimation, what's the practical wisdom, sir? What do you want to leave, what do you want to leave listeners with? What's the practical wisdom here?

SPEAKER_00 27:37

Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go off what you just said, right? So I'm I just turned 51. I hopefully got a good 15, 16 years left in my career, but I've certainly now have fewer years left than I've already done. So I've passed that midway point. And I've just got a suspicion that at the end of the day, when we're done working as as formally as we are now, that we're gonna look back and be most proud of, not the title we achieved, the money we earned, the things that we accomplished. We're gonna be most proud of who we developed and the relationships we developed. And so I think that's a that that keeps me going, right? Those little things that I thought were interruptions, that's the best part of our career, are the people and being able to engage with them. And so that's my last little bit of practical wisdom there. Just don't, it reminds me of what Dave Ramsey, the financial guy, used to say about money that giving it away is the most fun you'll ever have. So why not have fun with money now? And I it's like giving your

Practical Wisdom And Closing Thoughts

SPEAKER_00 28:40

time to people is the most fun you can have with your time. So don't starve yourself of that joy right now. Start doing that. Invest in your people, it's worth it. Love it. Okay, sir.

Scott Allen 28:51

Uh for listeners, there are a bunch of links in the show notes. Check those out. Have a look, click on it, buy that book, share it with someone who is in a middle manager role who you know this will help. Because, as we know, it's not an easy role. Appreciate you, sir. Have a great day. Yeah, thank you so much, Scott. It was a great combo. See you well.