A Better Way To Fail with Dr. Melisa Buie

Dr. Melisa Buie is a problem solver, author, and operational excellence leader known for making complex systems work better. Her work spans advanced technologies such as lasers and semiconductor equipment, as well as large-scale global manufacturing and business systems.

Melisa’s career sits at the intersection of engineering innovation and operational performance. She has held key roles with leading organizations in the semiconductor and photonics industries, including Lam Research, Coherent, Applied Materials, and Advanced Energy. As Global Director for Lean Operational Excellence at Coherent, Inc., a $2B global photonics solutions company, she led initiatives that advanced both engineering performance and enterprise-wide transformation. Earlier in her career, she served as a Member of the Technical Staff and Engineering Manager at Applied Materials and Advanced Energy, and as a Research Scientist with Science Applications International Corporation at the Naval Research Laboratory in Washington, D.C., where she focused on theoretical laser systems.

In addition to her industry leadership, Melisa is an author and educator. She wrote Problem Solving for New Engineers: What Every Engineering Manager Wants You to Know in 2017, drawing on her experience bridging industry and academia. She also taught graduate-level courses for nearly a decade at San Jose State University in the Department of Biomedical, Chemical, and Materials Engineering, where she helped develop the next generation of engineering leaders and problem solvers.

A Few Quotes From This Episode

• “If it’s safe to fail, then it’s safe to learn and grow.” 
• “Experimentation is something that leads to a lot of failure.” 
• “Part of the reason we don’t like failing is because of all the emotions that come with it.” 
• “You’ve got to separate the story you make up about the failure.” 

Resources Mentioned in This Episode 

• Book: Faceplant: Free Yourself From Failure's Funk by Buie and colleagues
• Book: Problem Solving for New Engineers: What Every Engineering Manager Wants You to Know by Buie

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

• The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. 

About  Scott J. Allen

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• The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can

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Transcript

Scott Allen: [00:00:00] Okay, everybody, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for checking in wherever you are in the world. Today I have a new friend and her name is Melisa. And she's written a book and we're gonna talk a little bit about that book. It's an important topic, I think, for many of us, and so I'm super excited to jump into that.

But Melisa, tell everyone about you. What where are you coming at us from what perspective? I'm so excited for this dialogue. 

 Melisa Buie : So my name's Melisa Buie and I am coming from a scientist slash engineering perspective. So I've spent my career doing engineering and in the lab, and I love. Playing with and learning and experimenting with things, asking questions, and then figuring out an experiment that I can do to prove it.

And. I learned early on that [00:01:00] is, that type of experimentation is something that leads to a lot of failure, and so I've written a book about my experience and analyzing that, and so yes, I'm happy to talk more about it. 

Scott Allen: Okay, everyone, so we've got degrees in like nuclear engineering, so she's being very modest right now.

Very modest. So I'll just, we'll put the full bio in the show notes for all of you so that you can learn a little bit more about her. But that's wonderful. A wonderful thing about you is your modesty, but you are coming in hot with a lot of experience and a lot of knowledge, and I love. I find that this conversation about failure and mistakes, I was literally on a call this morning.

With a large Fortune 500 doing a session for them coming up, and their people are risk averse. They're afraid they're they're playing it safe because [00:02:00] I guess the culture doesn't necessarily value and mistakes, experiments, failure that ends careers. And so I think this is such an important conversation.

How do we normalize some of these things? So talk a little bit about the book and then what are two or three things that you want people to know about. We aren't gonna give them everything we want 'em to go out and buy the book, but just maybe share a couple stories from the book or a couple insights that you think are critical when it comes to the space of experimentation.

 Melisa Buie : So in the book we talk. So our book is really, it's entitled, faceplant Free Yourself From Failure, spunk. And one of the things we realized when we were initially talking about failure is that. Part of the reason that we don't like failing that it's so uncomfortable is because of all these funky emotions that come with it.

There's a [00:03:00] lot of shame, embarrassment negative feelings that we can trace back to our childhood even. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. Yeah. You 

 Melisa Buie : know, and so it's really important that we acknowledge those feelings and in essence. Deal with them like we get. One of the things we talk about in the book is that in order to really be free to, to reach a place where you're comfortable failing, you need to go through this process, which we have called free, which is an acronym.

Of course, I'm a scientist, so I've gotta have an acronym in there. It's focus on the failure, so get really clear. About what the failure was. And in doing that, you've gotta separate the story that you make up about the failure. Yeah. So [00:04:00] if I, when I was going through divorce, the story I made up about it was that I was unlovable.

So I had to, in order to really get through that, I had to be really clear that, okay, that's the story I made up about it, and in my reflection phase, which is the next step in the process. I'm going to, I'm gonna look at those stories. I'm gonna look at where those stories came from. I'm gonna look at all the feelings associated with that.

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

 Melisa Buie : And I can spend time journaling. I can spend time in conversation with people, but that's where I deal with that. So focus on the failure, reflect on the emotions, reflect on what's going on. Once those two steps are. Once you're through that or in, in the midst of that, then [00:05:00] you've got an opportunity to really engage with what might, what opportunities are out there?

What other, in my terminology, what other experiments can I do? What can I try? 

Scott Allen: Yes. 

 Melisa Buie : And then. Once I've done that, once I've got a whole bunch of stuff that I might be able to try, then I can even go and engage in doing it. I can explore, I can see what's out there, see what happens, and then I might have to go through that process all over again.

But that makes it, that's really what's important when you're looking at failure, is really going through this. Going through this free model. 

Scott Allen: So say the four again real quick. The FREE. 

 Melisa Buie : So it's focus on the failure. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

 Melisa Buie : Reflect on the [00:06:00] emotions, the feelings, engage, and then explore. 

Scott Allen: It's, it I really enjoy how you're framing this. There's an activity that was invented by a gentleman named Robert Keegan called Immunity to Change. I don't know if you've ever heard of that activity. He's at the Kennedy School and. I came across that work for the first time, I think it was probably in like 2006.

I was at an executive education program with Ron Heitz at the Kennedy School and Robert Keegan came in and led this exercise and you said something in here that, there was a bunch of stuff just even from my childhood. That was bumbling around, that was holding me back, that I had latched onto.

That was, in some cases, in many ways, keeping me safe but was also holding me back from what I could be.

 Melisa Buie : Right.

Scott Allen: And so that reflection piece for me has always just been this core value. I've been with my therapist for probably [00:07:00] almost 19 years, and before that I was with another one, and that's really my outlet for reflecting.

I also have a mentor who I reflect with every few weeks and then my wife and I walk and we reflect and we're talking and we're dreaming and we're challenging each other and

 Melisa Buie : right.

Scott Allen: I learned for me that. It's conversational. That's, I've never been like a journaler or just walk alone in the woods and reflect.

I have to talk. I have to talk. But it's so important because I think we pick these things up and, okay, where did that come from? Or where is this intense, desire to never fail? Or where is this intense. Need to be seen as successful and not have to take on the identity of someone who's made a public mistake.

We pick those things up, right? 

 Melisa Buie : We do. We do. And it's, I looked back at my own life and where did I learn that failure was so bad? And it goes all the way back to like [00:08:00] kindergarten, first grade, when you bring home a, yeah. A, a grade that your parents don't expect.

What, and it could be a B, it could be a C, it could be an F whatever that is. It's how we interact with young people at that age. That's what we're teaching them about failure. And then in our companies, if we want innovation, if we want. People to go off and explore and discover and really ask questions and learn new things.

We make it really hard for them if they're starting out by saying no, failure is bad. Yes. And we don't walk our kids through this free model when they do fail. 

Have a punitive response to a failure. Oh, you're grounded for the next six weeks. Yeah. And hey, what are we teaching them?[00:09:00]

Scott Allen: Yeah. E, exactly. And I think, and then it becomes. You get into the Brene Brown emotions of shame, right? Not wanting to be vulnerable. You get into the anxiety that causes, you get into all of that. And so then we are avoidant and scared and worried and anxious when we're in the, so we don't, so we stay safe.

And that's part of, in this activity with Robert Keegan. I at the end of this process got a little bit, mad is not the right word, but I was I was like, oh, okay. That's what's holding me back. That's, that is where this stuff comes from. That's where these intense desires, the root of them, and I got, I.

Once I could see it in front of me, I was like, okay, I know what I need to do. And then I could explore and then I could put myself out there in a little bit of a different way. 'cause I was ripe, I was ready. Yeah. I just couldn't figure out what it was. 

 Melisa Buie : Yeah. Yeah. I, I [00:10:00] realized that the predecessor to writing this book was really around if I was in the lab.

I was running an experiment and every experiment failed. 

Scott Allen: Yes. 

 Melisa Buie : I, there was no emotion associated with that. Yep. I would build a model. I would learn, I would follow the path of least, least resistance, or I would. Follow the path where it looked like it was most likely to be successful, and I would use all the tools at my disposal to really discover and learn from that.

Yep. But in real life, yeah. The first, I was 40 years old and trying to learn a foreign language for the first time and. Somebody read my little report that I'd written for the teacher, [00:11:00] and I shared it with a friend who was a native Spanish speaker, and she says, she started laughing, oh, this looks like a third grader wrote it.

And I was devastated. I was so humiliated. I was absolutely destroyed. And I was like, in my mind, I didn't say it out loud, but in my mind I was like. Okay, that is never gonna happen again. I am not gonna put myself out there. And I was just completely stopped. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

 Melisa Buie : And it was when I started looking at this process that I was like, wait, why is it okay for me to fail in the lab?

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

 Melisa Buie : But then in real life I'm like, no, I'm not gonna be able, I'm not gonna take any chances. I'm gonna, like somebody laughs and I'm. Completely stopped. I'm not gonna let my, I'm not gonna discover things for myself as an adult. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

 Melisa Buie : So it was a [00:12:00] real eye-opening experience when I saw that for myself.

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

 Melisa Buie : And it's oh, that's gotta change. I need to explore this. I need to figure this out. 

Scott Allen: Yes. And for me, in 2006, it was all about not being rejected. Was at the core. And again my parents had been through about a three year divorce in high school. That was pretty traumatic for me, and I'd had two relationships in high school, one in college, one in high school that I probably relied on a little too heavily because of what was happening at home.

I was broken up with by both of them. So Scott's a little bit of a broken character. Don't reject me because that's bad and that there's horrible fe. Mistakes, rejection, failure, any of that. No, stay safe. So I had to move forward and put myself I intentionally little safe experiments like you, I love how you use that phrasing [00:13:00] to put myself out there to be rejected, to fail.

And when that would happen, I'd say, good job. You put yourself out there. You're in the game in a very different way now. Good work and just that switch, that shift. Now again, I've got Phil, I've got mentors, I've got my wife. They're helping me process this 'cause it's not always clean and easy.

There's a lot of emotions baked into this. 

 Melisa Buie : There is, and I, on the other hand, am not a. I need to spend time in my journal. I need to spend time on long walks, thinking about things maybe talking to the puppy before I talk to another human about what's going on for me. So I do spend a lot of time.

With, in reflection, looking at those things. And maybe it takes me a little longer because I'm, I need to I need to spend more time with it. But yeah, it's, 

Scott Allen: But it's so important that we each find our own way. That's part of the complexity [00:14:00] of all of this, right? What is it that works for me?

What is it that is my methodology that best supports this work? But the most important thing is it's the work. And I think sometimes people think. Oh I spoke with a therapist and that didn't work. Cool. Keep stay in the game. Maybe for you it's journaling. Maybe for you. It is a long walk and that's awesome.

Just who cares? Figure out your system that helps you do this work. 

 Melisa Buie : Right, yeah. And you can tell which it is by when something bad happens. Notice what's the first thing you wanna do. 

Scott Allen: Do 

 Melisa Buie : you wanna call a person and talk to them, or do you wanna grab your journal or do you wanna go for a walk?

What? Whatever that is, that's where, okay. Maybe that's your starting point. Yep. 

Scott Allen: Yep. Okay, so we've got the free 

 Melisa Buie : Yes. 

Scott Allen: Any other things that you want folks to be thinking about in a certain way? I maybe we could explore this little notion of experimentation, because as a scientist, and I loved your description of this.[00:15:00]

Yes. In the laboratory, it's the work. It's expected, but there's something about that shift of, in this, the social world and our identities, and our egos and all of this stuff is wrapped up in a little bit of a different way, feelings and emotion in a little bit of a different way. But talk a little bit more about experimentation and how you're thinking about that, and then a couple other concepts from the book that you want people to be aware of.

 Melisa Buie : Yeah. One of the things that, that we talk about in the book is this thing called a learning curve. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

 Melisa Buie : And we often think of when we think about learning, it's okay, I learn A and then I am able to do B. We don't necessarily think about, oh wait. We might have trouble learning a, and so this thing, it might, we might struggle and it's [00:16:00] oftentimes in the struggle that in the, in those failures, in the.

The difficult times that we are actually, when we spend time in reflection and in the struggle that we are learning the most, and it's being very solidified. I believe it's at Harvard Reflection is. A part of, it's a big part of the learning process that they go through. They spend a lot of time with the students, having them reflect on case studies, reflect on material, and actually talking through that.

So it's a really big part of our learning, but learning that we have to exit. Areas where we are very comfortable. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

 Melisa Buie : We have to stretch ourselves. Not so much that we are completely afraid and terrified to do something, but just enough so that we're [00:17:00] not comfortable, and then we can learn then we can start that learning process, and it does take us struggling with it.

To really have it be solidified in our mind. 

Scott Allen: And I had a client recently who we were talking about feedback and we were talking about performance management, and this leader made a really important observation. He said, just because I know that you need to. Let's just say it's auto sales.

You need to get to 25 cars. So there's that leader, but then there's a leader who can actually help coach someone through the process of getting to 25 cars. There's the individual who can guide that work and who can keep the. The, in the other person and what the zone of proximal development, right?

I'm not gonna come outta the gates. I want you to be at 25. Let's see if we can get one more and what are some [00:18:00] experiments back to that work? Let's see if we can get two more of the month after that. What's working for you? Let's build the system. And I think there's just a magic in the mentors and the supervisors that can do that work well, that can help guide that challenge and support, right?

Because we don't want. Too much support. You're not growing, you're not evolving, you're not developing, but normalizing the failure, normalizing the mistakes, normalizing the struggle. Our minds want to believe that it's gonna be easy to learn guitar. And then you get to the F chord and your fingers are, I think it's the F chord.

Your fingers are stretched and it's there. It normalizing that. Normalizing the failure, but also normalizing the struggle. 

 Melisa Buie : Right?

Scott Allen: But then. Having someone who can help guide that and oof. So important.

 Melisa Buie : It is. And back to experimentation I think it's part of the thing with us is that we need to realize that life, that [00:19:00] linear path doesn't exist and.

Most of the time it doesn't exist. There's gonna be ups and downs, and we are going to, we're gonna need to make decisions at some point about how we're gonna learn. And if we're gonna learn something, we have to commit and move forward. And part of experimentation is oh, I'm just gonna go try this little thing.

And if we take, and if we bring this kind of. Experimental. Oh, I'm just trying it. 

Scott Allen: Yes. 

 Melisa Buie : I'm gonna try doing it this way. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

 Melisa Buie : I'm gonna try this thing next. 

Scott Allen: Yes. 

 Melisa Buie : And part of it is that we can just be curious about what happens when we try it. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

 Melisa Buie : That way. And we try it that way and in that way we're learning.

What's working and what doesn't work, and when we bring that [00:20:00] experimental approach to it, it makes it so much easier for us to really get to that next level. 

Scott Allen: It's 

 Melisa Buie : so 

Scott Allen: freeing, Melisa. It's so freeing. 

 Melisa Buie : It really is. It really is. 

Scott Allen: Because outta the gates, there's a mindset there that this isn't gonna be clean.

It's not gonna be linear, it's not gonna be easy. No one has the answer, no one has. I can't call anyone to say, Hey, how should we help Scott, navigate stress. No, I am figuring out in my own life and different life states and stages of how to do that work, but. For so many of these puzzles that we're working, when you're in complexity, no one has the answer.

So I think it's so freeing to me at times as I'm working with leaders I, we will have conversations and so many of those folks are walking around the organization feeling like they should have the answer. When no one has the [00:21:00] answer. 'cause it doesn't exist. There's no one we can call in the world.

So we're gonna have it's, oh, okay. 

 Melisa Buie : It's interesting we spend if you look at organizations, right? Large organizations, they spend so much money. On experimentation. And if you look at the experiments that they run, it's really, some of them are really simple.

It's oh, if I have the button on the left side, or I have the button on the right side, which one are people that visit my website? Which one are they gonna click more? 

Scott Allen: Yeah, 

 Melisa Buie : which one's the most? Where do their eyes naturally go to those little experiments like that, and they're spending. Million of dollars million on those types of experiments.

And if I do an experiment to figure out what's the most efficient way to walk to the mailbox that [00:22:00] great, I've got this, I'm bringing this curious mindset to some little aspect of my life and I can just be. Oh, I've learned something. Yeah. Oh, there's a really interesting neighbor that lives that way, even though it's five minutes longer, whatever.

Scott Allen: Yeah. And because we are as humans, the context around us is shifting always, I think. If we are engaged in free, and if we are engaged in that reflection, we are also changing and developing. And I think you get into this kind of way of existing in life where you start to notice, okay, this isn't working anymore and it used to work, but it doesn't seem to be working anymore either for me or because of the context.

What's the next experiment I can run? How do, yeah. And again, that mindset can be so freeing because it's not. A failure about you or you're not broken. It's [00:23:00] a way of, oh, that's data that's interesting. Okay, this is how I'm feeling. This is not the result I want. What do I shift? What do I try next?

 Melisa Buie : And it's not, I'm not trying to make this like over oversimplify this, because there are certainly some failures out there that are. 

Scott Allen: Bad 

 Melisa Buie : complex, right? Yes. There's, we've got some very very serious with problems that involve lots of variables and there's a lot of moving pieces to it, but we can, in our own lives, the more we simplify and try small things to see what works.

For us, 

Scott Allen: yes. 

 Melisa Buie : The more we can develop that experimental mindset and bring, just to bring, just be really curious 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

 Melisa Buie : About what's going on around us. 

Scott Allen: Yes. And then what's beautiful about that, [00:24:00] Melisa, is that, and if you are in a position of authority, then you bring that spirit to the team, you bring that spirit to the organization, right?

You normalize some of that way of thinking, but I do believe it starts with us having that mindset and us having that awareness. Because if we're not setting that tone. Others are gonna be stuck in their own space. Their own stuff. And I think it's up to us to help build that, but it starts with us, I believe.

And I love your notion of keep it small, keep it about you, you master this, and then. We're gonna be better positioned to parent our kids when they have failures and they're making mistakes and they are not getting the results they want. Oof. And 

 Melisa Buie : it makes us better leaders in organizations. 

Scott Allen: Yes.

 Melisa Buie : Because if you think about. Bringing this experimental mindset to, to work. So I worked in operations for many years and one of the most beautiful [00:25:00] things I saw at work was going up to a supervisor who said, oh, we're running an experiment. I didn't, there were no PhDs on that line. There was nobody with a PhD in that cell.

Actually, I don't even know if anybody had a degree, but they understood enough about being curious and trying things that they called a new experiment. And I was like, this is so awesome. I was so proud of them. Okay, hey everybody, we need to go the whole management team. Let's go check this group out.

Scott Allen: Yeah, 

 Melisa Buie : let's go talk to them because they're running an experiment today. Let's see what they learn. 

Scott Allen: Yes. And then. Again, culture. A simple definition. The way we do things around here, you are creating a culture where and to your point, we don't want just like blanket silly failure. That was not the type of failure.

This is Amy Edmondson intelligent failure, right? This is what, so we're, this is [00:26:00] sit bounded, but yes. Then you create the culture where. Let's celebrate. What did we learn? And it's in that reflection and then that cycle of the scientific method, right? Just, okay, what are we gonna try? What we learned? What's our next hypothesis?

What are the potential? And that's how cancer's being cured, everybody. Yes. Yes. Or also Melisa didn't say, but she worked on lasers and such. So that's how we learn more about lasers. 

 Melisa Buie : It is how we learn more about lasers. 

Scott Allen: Speaking from experience, I know. 

 Melisa Buie : Yes. 

Scott Allen: Oh as we begin to wind our time down, what, is there anything else that you want listeners to leave with based on the book?

What do you think? 

 Melisa Buie : I. I would say as you read the book, definitely read the book because it's fun. There's a lot of, there's a lot of humor, there's a lot of personal stories, there's a lot of alliteration, so there's a lot of F words in there. [00:27:00] Not the F word, but. A lot of F words in there and we just tried to make it really fun.

We've made it very personal. We've got a lot of personal stories. We brought our lives to this as we were writing it, and because we wanted it to be not another business book that was out there, but a book that you could apply to your life. Yeah. And apply to your business if you wanted to. Check out the book.

It's really it's a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun to write and I feel like it's something that will inspire and change your life as it's changed mine. 

Scott Allen: And even for those of you listening, who might be in the classroom, leadership educators, professors of management, professors of leadership, and for consultants and for individuals leading teams.

There's a mindset baked into this that is an important one. And is it a mindset that we are [00:28:00]getting to folks earlier in their careers, maybe even before they've started their careers? And I think we can save a lot of time and heartache for a number of individuals, right? If we get this message to folks as soon as possible.

Yeah. So as you reflect on our conversation, what's the practical wisdom, Melisa, in this whole dialogue that we've had? What's the practical wisdom here for leaders? 

 Melisa Buie : For leaders, build a safe to fail culture as early as you can, as early as you can. Make it safe for people to bring their failures, their mistakes, their errors to you, whether they're intelligent or not.

Because if you've got a culture in your organization, in your family, in your own life where it's safe to fail. Then it's really safe to learn and grow. And you will be so much stronger for it. 

Scott Allen: Beautifully said. [00:29:00] Beautifully said. It impacts us as individuals. It impacts our families, it impacts our teams, and I just can't thank you enough, Melisa, for spending a little time with me today.

Thank you. I appreciate you. I appreciate your good work for listeners. There is a link in the show notes to the book. You also have a link or actually done not a link to. Yes, you have a link to Melisa. She writes prolifically on LinkedIn, so if you're interested in following her there, please do that.

Purchase the book, learn more about her in the show notes and everyone have a great day. Thank you, Melisa. 

 Melisa Buie : Thank you.