Better Humans, Better Leaders with Dr. Joel Rothaizer

Dr. Joel Rothaizer is a psychologist, executive coach, organizational consultant and leadership development specialist. He’s Board Certified in Organizational & Business Consulting Psychology, and a Master Certified Coach through the International Coaching Federation. His book on leadership, called Clear Impact, has been strongly endorsed by Ken Wilber. The head of Integral Zen calls it the most integral book on leadership he’s ever read.

A  Few Quotes From This Episode

• “Without a practice of reflection, you cannot build leadership capacity. Period. End of story.” 
• "What happens in our sessions has zero meaning unless you’re applying it.”
• “Do you start your day with an intention of who you want to be?”

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

• Episode #1 - Rethinking The Polarity Map with Dr. Joel Rothaizer
• Episode #2 - The Wake I Leave with Dr. Joel Rothaizer
• Trey Anastasio - His Story About Drug Court

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

• The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. 

About  Scott J. Allen

• Website
• Weekly Newsletter: Practical Wisdom for Leaders

My Approach to Hosting

• The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration 

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Transcript

Scott Allen: [00:00:00] Okay everybody, I have Joel with me today. Welcome to the podcast and he is fast becoming a good friend and just really always enjoying my conversations with Joel and he has been on a couple times. I'm gonna put those links in the show notes. He had an idea about interviewing me a little bit today.

We'll see how this conversation goes. We'll see where it takes us. But sir, how is everything in Canada today? 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Pretty sunny little cold. 

Scott Allen: I grew up in Minneapolis, so it was always very sunny out. Not a cloud in the sky because it was so cold that there was no room for clouds. It was 20 below. Where do you wanna take the conversation today, sir?

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Let's see where it goes. How many episodes have you done on the podcast? Roughly 

Scott Allen: recorded? About 3 25. Since 2000. Wow. About 3 25 conversations. Yeah. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Has anything you heard on any of those? Changed you as a human being, hasn't changed the way you [00:01:00] parent, changed what you're like as a partner. Anything that's really fundamentally impacted you as a human being.

Scott Allen: You're actually the perfect person to have this conversation with, I think. And it's a great question. You know, the one that continued to come back to is just who you are is how you lead. And I think Hogan originally in that paper with Hogan and Kaiser said, who we are is how we lead. And then they went into, as you know, kind of the Hogan.

And it was very, very much based on personality. But I, I think that framing of who you are is how you lead. Is for me. Powerful because I think that's, that's an individual's character, that's an individual's lived history. That's an individual's personality of course, but that's also their maturity level, their complexity of mind as we've talked about in the past.

So, and, and I don't think, I think at times when I use that in sessions, people think that it can mean that someone's fixed. [00:02:00] Well, I'm, I am who I am, so deal with it. No. If you're an individual who's constantly working to become a better version of yourself. That's part of who you are. I think there are people who are stuck and living the same day over and over.

But another reason I love that quote, and this is where it hits home for me, Joel is. You know who you are is how you parent. Who you are is how you partner. And so if others are in our care, whether it's leadership, whether it's as a parent, whether it's as a partner, who you are, matters a lot. It matters a lot.

And so that, I just keep coming back to that over and over and over that, you know, leader development is human development. And if we're putting an individual who has done some of the work of, you know, we could use a lot of different phrases, but becoming a more grounded, centered, clear individual. If we have a person who's, who's kind of there, we're better off when it comes to [00:03:00] leadership.

And if we have an individual who's a little tornadic, hasn't dealt with whatever they need to deal, deal with mm-hmm. Hasn't done some of that work and we put them in a position of authority, great damage can happen. And, and they do great damage to their teams, to their organizations. And so that, I just keep coming back to that quote.

How do you internalize that quote? I'm interested. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: For a long time, my tagline has been better human beings make better leaders. 

Scott Allen: Okay. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: That the goal is not to become somebody you're not. It's to become a better version of yourself. 

Scott Allen: Nice. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: And at least the people that I attract seem to really like that. They don't want to imitate somebody else, or they don't want to learn some technique, but they wanna find a way to really feel good about who they are.

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: While they're getting work done. 

Scott Allen: And I think that individual. Who is willing to, 'cause I think, I think leadership, I think parenting is this way. I think partnering is this way. I think they are the ultimate mirrors. [00:04:00] And if we are open to looking into that mirror, the good, the bad, and the ugly of what's in that mirror.

There's a lot of lessons. There's a lot of learning. There's a lot of grist for the mill. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Right, 

Scott Allen: right. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Yeah. Well that's why one of my favorite coaching questions always would be. Somebody's about to have a difficult conversation with their boss with a direct report. It could be on a personal level. I like to ask.

Okay. The conversation's over, you're thinking back on it. What would you most love to be able to say about how you showed up? 

Scott Allen: Hmm. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Because I want them to put that conversation in the context of their trajectory as a human being. 

Scott Allen: Yeah, 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: so it's not just about, I wanna get through it, but it's like what values do I want to line up with while I have this conversation?

Yep. 

Scott Allen: And that's why I love your article. I've shared it with so many [00:05:00] people. You might have seen a little spike in the, in the, in the, the statistics. But I, I love your article. You know, the Wake I leave, but also that article of like, Hey, in one minute we can help reframe like, what's my intention for this conversation?

I just love that because I think it centers in the individual beautifully on, on what they're trying to accomplish, right? 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So has there ever been a time when you had a podcast guest and you heard something that changed how you were right after that? In your work, in your personal life? A 

Scott Allen: couple examples.

I had a, a guest on who, who talked about white privilege and talked about, in, in particular, it was an, an article kind of exploring transformational leadership. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Mm-hmm. 

Scott Allen: And. Her perspective. And there were actually a few different guests on that, on that conversation, just opened my eyes to some things I hadn't seen.

I hadn't, I hadn't had [00:06:00] that perspective. I hadn't viewed something through that lens or through that, that, uh, that, that angle before. And so that was a conversation that just immediately kind of struck me and. There's a big kind of dose of humility baked into that. And so now I always start my, my leadership sessions with a quote.

And a, a friend of mine, Tony Middlebrooks said this. He, he starts his courses this way. Uh, I don't know better. I know different. And so I, I often say, look, I'm gonna share some things that have caught my attention that I think are kind of cool and interesting when it comes to this topic. But I have not held the roles that you hold.

I haven't lived the lives that you've lived. Mm-hmm. And I don't have the perspectives that, that you bring to this table. So let's learn together. By no means I am, I am blind to large kind of factions and, and lived realities in this world. Share your thoughts, share your perspectives. Push back question.

[00:07:00] That statement and that quote, very authentic in my perspective of that, 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: right? 

Scott Allen: Because. I can't have a corner on this topic. You can't. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Mm-hmm. 

Scott Allen: But it also invites a lot of really fun conversations 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: and it really models the polarity of confidence and humility. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: You know, because you, you're saying, I still have a right to be here.

I have perspectives that I've gained over the years and I can't put myself in your shoes. And, and 

Scott Allen: again, it's, it's very much felt. My being that that's the, the correct thing to say in that instance. But you're right, I do wanna share some things I, I think are really cool. Mm-hmm. But everyone in that room has a perspective and has value and so that, that was one conversation that just really shifted how I think about things.

I really enjoyed our conversations because, and as I've said this to you, I feel like a broken record sometimes. I'm trying to [00:08:00] find that sweet spot in my own work of offering complex interventions that are. Simple that are, that are clean, that are clear, that there's a great deal of depth underneath them, but they're readily digestible and can make an impact on someone's life immediately.

A. And so I really, really enjoyed our conversation and that's why I've really valued the fact that we've continued to stay in this cadence of talking. So, so that was another one that I, and I've said this to you before. I'm in this, I'm on this hunt for these mm-hmm. Conventions. Mm-hmm. That. Have that great depth and complexity behind them, but they're, they're almost, there's Steve Jobs said, um, simple can be harder than complex.

You have to get your thinking really clean. You have to get your thinking really clean. And I think they did that. [00:09:00] The iPhone. I think they did that in a beautiful way. So I love what you bring and I love my conversations with Jonathan Reams as well, that how do we do this work better and how do we do this work in a way that has that depth underneath it, but it doesn't show up as a dissertation, 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: right?

Yeah. So. You're a, you're a podcaster practitioner, which is really important. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: You know, you do keynotes, you work with teams, you work with leaders. Is there anything that you used to say that you now have changed? Any message that you had early in your career and maybe through the kind of podcasting you've done, you've changed your message?

Scott Allen: Early in my career, I was taught these different theories of leadership, situational leadership, transformational leadership, and, and of course in, in the literature. So in the academic literature, emotional intelligence, whether it was Mayor Salve, whether it was [00:10:00] Goldman and, and Vois and McKee, those models were kind of panned, or whether it's situational leadership, that model was kind of.

Panned in the academic literature as having no, no value. So I kind of was brought up in this again, you know, certain level of status and, and a certain perspective of how leadership works. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Mm-hmm. 

Scott Allen: So transformational leadership, when I was doing my PhD, was kind of still the bee's knees. It was, it was just the most rigorous and the most incredible approach to, to doing leadership well.

What you kind of come to realize and, and in the same breath, a lot of the academics are poo-pooing the practitioners. So a Sinek or a John Maxwell or you know, airport books. I had a advisor rest in peace, incredible man, but you know, he called them airport books. Mm-hmm. I used to talk a lot about transformational leadership and situational [00:11:00] leadership, and now it's much more integrative.

Like what are some of the themes that we know that. That are really, really important when it comes to this topic. Well, relationships, we know that relationships are incredibly important. So if we look across authentic leadership and servant leadership and situational and emotionally intelligent and all these, we could just put any word we want in front of leadership.

What are the themes? And, and I've, I've become much more interested in kind of integrating. And again, communicating those to the practitioners because as you get into working with practitioners, none of them have heard of any of those models. And when you do start to try and explain, when you start to, uh, discuss the four eyes of transformational leadership, you can see people's eyes gloss over 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: of course.

Scott Allen: So again, how do we take what we know and the themes across these things and kind of center in there? Connect it to people's lived realities. Connect it to [00:12:00] incredible coaches and educators that they've had, and supervisors and managers that they've had over the years, so that it's kind of internalized.

That would be one thing that, as I've developed in my own thinking about some of these things, I'm, I'm, yeah, I'm even less, look, Simon Sinek, his message resonates and how he communicates some things, it resonates. Same thing with John Maxwell. So there's something, same thing with Tony Robbins. So there's some something there.

Mm-hmm. That we can learn, that academics can learn about how they communicate. Because I do believe, whether it's Brene Brown or Adam Grant. Maybe Amy Edmondson. Those are the only three academics that have penetrated, widespread kind of messaging. I think academics in many ways have been a little bit sidelined and are no longer in, in, in a lot of circles.

The center of the universe when it comes to this knowledge, a lot of those [00:13:00] individuals are, so how do you blend these two worlds? To what I said to you a few moments ago. Great rigorous thinking with practical wisdom and great rigorous thinking with clean messaging that connects with the masses and truly helps them do this work more effectively.

Because I was at an academic conference in, in, in December, Joel, and you know what, how those folks were speaking. It was the furthest thing from what your average executive would have on their mind in a day, the furthest from it. And in certain circles, the conversation's going so far astray and so Pollyanna in some ways that, how do we keep it somewhat grounded?

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Mm-hmm. And so at this point, if you only had 15 minutes with a leader. What's your best shot? What's, what have you found [00:14:00] is most important for them to reflect on? 

Scott Allen: What is your system of learning would be my, my conversation with them? Who is the therapist? Who is the coach? Who are the thinking partners, mentors?

How are you consistently becoming a better version of yourself? And what are you doing and what does that system look like? I don't care if it's meditation, I don't care if it's your faith. I don't care if it's podcasts or audio books. What are you doing each and every day for five or 10 minutes to try and orient yourself towards a trajectory of, uh, just becoming a better version, however you define that.

Again, if we have a clear, grounded, mature human, we're probably better off when it comes to, you know, uh, that person will more likely understand some of their limitations, will more likely create a space of psychological safety. Mm-hmm. Then that person who hasn't done some of that work, that's my how I'm, [00:15:00] I'm interested.

What do you do? 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Yeah. Do 

Scott Allen: you think, 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: well, that's, that's beautiful, but I, um. I wanna turn it around first. So how do you do that day to day at this point? 

Scott Allen: Sure. So I have a, a therapist that I've been with for 18 plus years. His name's Phil. Mm-hmm. He's incredible and I speak with him every two weeks. I have a mentor that I speak with.

It used to be every two weeks. Now it's about every month or every month. Every, every month or two. Hmm. I am listening to audio books. I'm listening to podcasts, so that's all part of my system. I meditate daily, I walk with my wife, so that's kind of our version of, of exercise. Those are elements of my system.

I try and create boundaries and so that when those boundaries are, whether it's family time or boundaries mm-hmm. Or just. Recovery for myself, I prioritize sleep more than I ever have. So those are parts of [00:16:00] my system that, you know, have helped me be a, a, a better version of myself, right? Mm-hmm. I severely regulate alcohol and mm-hmm.

That's just something that, you know, my, my mom passed away about a year ago. She struggled with alcohol her whole life. It's just something I have to be super mindful of, and quite honestly, it, it's damaging my sleep. I have the data now 'cause of an aura ring and, you know, it's just, it's, you know, how do I show up day after day, the best possible version of myself and, mm-hmm.

That's, yeah. So those are parts of my system, but where do you, I'm interested, where do you start with a leader if you have 15 minutes? I don't, certainly don't go to like, Hey, here's what situational leadership is. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: No. Um, if I'm meeting with somebody first, I want to know what they deeply care about. 

Scott Allen: Okay.

That's a good one. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: I wanna, I wanna [00:17:00] know, do they have a purpose behind their leadership? 

Scott Allen: Okay. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Do they have something they want to be able to say at their retirement dinner? When they look back at their career? Is it something deeper than getting better quarterly results? 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: That matters to them? 

Scott Allen: Yeah, 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: because that's a framework.

Everything is in. 

Scott Allen: You 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: know, change. Change is hard. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Our brains don't wanna change. And so it has to be meaningful to us. It has to be aligned with something that really touches our hearts. So I wanna know what that is. 

Scott Allen: Uh, that's great. That is beautiful. What else? How else do you think about that? I'm turning the tables on you now, so 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: I know you're and I to ask and I still have to ask you about fish.

Yeah. So, um. That. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: I mean, my own 

Scott Allen: life, I'm interested in learning. I'm interested in watching how you make that transition. But for now, you know, let's see how you are with segues. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Yes. 

Scott Allen: But for now, [00:18:00] like, so I love that. So is there a deeper purpose behind why you're doing what you're doing? Can we tap into that a little bit?

And then is there another thing that you think about in some of those first meetings? 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Yeah. Um, I often say. Without a practice of reflection, you cannot build leadership capacity. Period, end of story. 

Scott Allen: Wow. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Um, what me, what happens in our sessions has zero meaning unless you're applying it. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Um, and so, um, I sometimes say I'm gonna badger you until you have a reflection practice.

So why don't you just start out, 

Scott Allen: yeah. This isn't gonna go well for you unless you just decide this 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Yes. We take no prisoners here. Um, and to me the minimum is do you start out each day with an intention? And I don't mean what do I wanna get done today, but do you start out with an intention of who you wanna be?

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: How do I wanna show up? How do I wanna [00:19:00] impact people? What wake do I wanna leave? What would I love to say about myself at the end of the day? 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: And to me that's like the minimum start. Do you do that in the morning and then either on your way home or before you go to sleep? Do you reflect on how did that go?

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: With a heavy dose of what went well. You wanna focus a lot more on where you did align and where you didn't, but that's like a basic structure. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Um, we all go on autopilot. We all need to do something to remind ourselves what really matters. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. Well, and, and when I'm with groups and I, I kind of, Joel, it's a, it's an interesting thing.

Um. When I say that quote, who you are is how you lead, I then introduce who you are is how you parent. Mm-hmm. And that's where a lot of to your meaning thing, I think a lot of people are in at that point. Uh, it's personal. Yeah. It's [00:20:00] real. It's at home. It's how you partner. That's, that's again, real. It's at home and, um.

When I ki I kind of blur those two because I really do believe that my wife and I are, are leading our family, that we are mm-hmm. Developing our children that we're trying to create, uh, you know, a habit of mind in them where they are reflective and, and we mm-hmm. Ask those questions at dinner and we try and again, help them build some of those habits of mind.

But I mean, when, when I. Oftentimes when I kind of introduce that wider lens of why this stuff matters, why you being the best possible version of you, if others are your care, why it matters. And, um, but that, that habit of mind of reflection, I think you're spot on. If, if we don't have that, um, you, you're not connecting dots.[00:21:00]

It, it's self-serving bias. You're constantly just. It's everyone else's problem. It's the team's problem that, and I can't see what I own and the dysfunction. Yeah. I can't see I own, and, and, and how I am not showing up my best. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Mm-hmm. 

Scott Allen: It's fascinating. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: But you know, in that one, there's an assignment I came up with that almost no couple takes me up on, almost nobody takes me up on this one reflection activity.

And so it would be Skype, you and your wife once a week. Ask yourselves, what did we model today that we want our kids to emulate? 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: And what did we model that we don't? Because your kids listen not to what you say, but who you're being. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: And so for, for parents to actually reflect on what are they modeling is a very challenging activity.

Scott Allen: That's like a, that's a fun house mirror now. It's not, not that it makes it all distorted, but it's [00:22:00] all around you. It's a 360. Yeah. Uh, you know. Yeah. I love that question. Yeah. And, and that honestly, I'm, I'm proud to say, uh, my wife and I have never had that conversation, so it's something I will introduce for sure.

But it's, it's the type of stuff that we talk about on our walks when we walk. Hm. Every day in the winter, it's a little less frequently, but 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: that's beautiful. 

Scott Allen: Every day we're dreaming, we're visioning, we're challenging, we're ideating. How do we influence Kate? But that's a great question that I'll introduce into the flow.

What are we modeling? Or, you know, that that maybe isn't how we want to be showing up. Mm-hmm. And that's, and, and we do a pretty good job of. Coaching one another. Um, obviously we derail sometimes in the heat of the moment and in such certain situations, but that's my favorite part of the day is when I'm, when we are together and we are kind of co reflecting, talking things through.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Beautiful. [00:23:00] Yeah. So one thing I didn't know when I first met you is that you actually work so that you have enough money to follow fish all over the world. I hadn't, I hadn't understood the balance and, you know, your priorities and, and other bands, but Phish in particular. So what have you learned from Phish about leadership?

Scott Allen: I saw them in Mexico for three nights, four nights in, in January with a friend of mine, Chris Gerhardt, who's just a great friend and we see a lot of shows together. And uh, I think it was show number 24, so I'm not quite as into it as some, but, but yes, I do love, I I do love to get to some shows. I think Phish is a really, you have four people who've been together since, I believe it's like 83.

And I, I, I'm, I'm embarrassed to say I don't know that, but I think it's about 1983 and they have been [00:24:00] together literally through thick and thin. And it's this beautiful, and you and I were talking before we started recording. It's this beautiful kind of progression of how these human beings have matured together and in very, very real ways.

It's a deeply human story. The, you have all of rock and roll, you have, uh, drug abuse, you have all of all of that story. Mm-hmm. And then on the other side of that, you have humans who I think have really grown up, been there for one another. And helped each other develop and grow. And when I say develop and grow, I'm talking about kind of the stuff of development that, that we talk about sometimes where even if you look at at at Tre Anastasia's lyrics and the topics of his songs, they've gone from these kind of silly, quirky to much more reflective, much more internal and.

There's, there's, there's themes of [00:25:00] hope and there's themes of purpose, and there's, so I, he gave this, and I'll put it in the show notes. He gave a, he went to drug court. He was caught with drugs in his car, went to drug court in the United States. It's this very specific program, and he did a presentation to, to the kind of this community of people who are involved in drug court and talked about how it changed his life.

But you have an individual who. Has lived into just an incredible version of himself, I think, working at some of the highest levels now. So you have, you have a team. You have a, a, a cohort of individuals who have grown together. Are still producing brand. They're not living on what they used to do. I think Joel, I think I've seen in those 25 shows, I think the number was like 185 different songs.

So that's was for those listeners who don't know this band, it's kind of like the Grateful Dead in the sense that. [00:26:00] All four nights that I saw them in Mexico, it was a different set every night. So you didn't have any repeated songs. So people are just going, because you always get a different show, they've never repeated a show.

So they're challenging themselves at the highest levels at, you know, 40 plus years in, and it's just really, it's, it's awe inspiring. I know you're a fan as well. I mean, what do you see? 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Well, I, I'm not as big a fan of Phish as you are. I was fascinated one, one trip driving from San Diego to Edmonton, um, listening to Bruce Springsteen's autobiography.

Um, 

Scott Allen: yeah, 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: wait, he reads it, so it's very cool. He his own, 

Scott Allen: I'm, I'm listening to Bono's right now, and so I, that I need to put that on the list. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Yeah. And you really see these people developing and growing and working with, what does it mean to be a leader? 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: In a way that's beautiful. 

Scott Allen: It, it really is. I mean, and again, you and I were kind of talking a little bit about [00:27:00]this, but you know, whether it's McCartney and watching him kind of mm-hmm.

Reflect back or, or Springsteen reflecting back and what he was experiencing and going through, I think Bono listening to his story. You know, his mom passed away, I think at 14, and you had these three men in a household and kind of what he escaped out of in Ireland during that time mm-hmm. Of the troubles.

It's, it's just beautiful. Some of these stories, they're just beautiful Springsteen bono, I think. Um, I just, I was sharing that, I watched band on the run with McCartney. I think he, in a very, very beautiful way, can kind of look back and reflect on. So I just, I love music for that reason. For the, some of these folks that have, have made it right because mm-hmm.

Some don't. That age 27 has got some of the best. But, so for some of those individuals, you just watch them develop and grow over a [00:28:00] career. It's beautiful. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Yeah. Have you ever thought about reaching out to any of them as podcast guests? 

Scott Allen: That would be awesome. I do not yet have had the kones to, to reach out to Bruce Springsteen, but maybe Joel, not if you've inspired me.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Hey, I challenge you to write to 10 of your top, you know, bono Springsteen, Trey. And invite them on your podcast and see what happens. 

Scott Allen: I will, I will. I, I challenge accepted. I love it. Love it. I'll send you the list in the next two weeks of who I wrote, wrote to. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: That would be so cool. 

Scott Allen: That would be, yeah. I, you know, maybe Rick from Goose, I'd have more of a shot or Peter from Goose.

I'd have more of a shot, but I love it. Yeah, because it's a fascinating conversation. The, the leadership in the context of a band. Uh, Chris Martin is another one. I, I just have so much watch an [00:29:00]interview with him and Zane Lowe. It's just, uh, how he sees the world and how they're approaching the work and how they've grown up and they're still going so strong, Coldplay, it's, it's just admirable.

It really is. And then when you add on, especially with like a Bono where they're trying to make a difference in the world as well in, in many ways. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Right. 

Scott Allen: I, that's cool. That's cool stuff. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Anything else that you want people to know about what it's been like for you on that side of the microphone? 

Scott Allen: When I started the podcast, I, I really didn't know what I was doing and for five years I've kind of been learning in public.

Mm-hmm. So every week I'm speaking with someone who knows a heck of a lot more than I do. You or, or Jonathan know a heck of a lot more than I do about adult development. But that also has systematized my learning, my growth is just every week speaking with people who are, are looking at the world in a really unique or [00:30:00] interesting, or from a, a position of expertise or wisdom.

I just love that. And so for me, again, what's your system of learning? What's your system for working to become a better version of yourself? And that could just be that you curate your news and social media intake a little more carefully. Mm-hmm. That could be, and which I've done for the last year and a half.

I, I have curated very carefully kind of what I let in, what I participate in. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I was speaking with a friend, a long time friend this morning, reached out to him and, and we connected for about 45 minutes. And, you know, he, he is. There's some folks at Stanford who wrote a book, something to the effect of, you know, design your life.

I think it does require some design and are, are you working with others and are you thoughtfully thinking about how you wanna [00:31:00] design your path forward? That, that's a big piece of what I've taken from this experience. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Mm-hmm. 

Scott Allen: How about you? 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Which question, 

Scott Allen: how do you, what is your system for kind of staying in a place of continual growth?

How do you think about that? 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Well, I've had a very strong Tibetan Buddhist practice. Okay. Which saves my butt in many ways. Um, it aligns me and what I, what I've found over it is that the, um, there's a Buddhist concept of Bodhi Cheetah, which is genuinely wanting the best for others. What I've noticed in me is that that's just become part of my DNA, that if somebody is in my orbit, they're in my care.

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: And whether that's the checkout person at the grocery, or whether it's somebody I'm living with or somebody I'm working with, that there is a lovely sense of [00:32:00] obligation 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Um, to help them be their best. And that brings out my best. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. It's beautiful. Right. So what is it for you? I mean, I think that's, and I think for each one of us, it's a, it's a different calculus.

It's a different set of variables. It's a different, just like finding your, your passion in life or finding the sport that you love or the instrument or it, it takes some experimentation and it takes some exploration to kind of, mm-hmm. That system in place that works for you. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: This is not morbid in any way, but I've been reflecting a lot on death.

And in the sense of if it was my time to go tomorrow, am I clean? 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Um, is there anything unfinished? Is there anything that I would, that I need to change with that idea of, of immediacy? 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: Um. [00:33:00] And I feel ready to die. I mean, I, I feel like if I was gonna go tomorrow, I feel like I've done good in the world.

You know, we can always do better. You know, we can always look back and go, oh my God, I can't believe I did that 10 years ago. Um, but do we lead our lives in a way where if it was our deathbed, we can look back and go, overall, that was good. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. Yeah. Right. A hundred percent. I'm gonna turn it on you.

Mm-hmm. What's the practical wisdom in this conversation? What do you think? 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: I think there's two things. I really liked the way you started with an appropriate humility in your talks around, um, I haven't been in your shoes. I can't know what work for you. I have some things to share that I think are useful and they may not work for you, or you may need to process it differently.

I like that. Um. Ooh. That's, that's my number one [00:34:00] takeaway. Yeah. The, the genuine humility around that, that I do have a right to be here talking and, I don't know. 

Scott Allen: Yep. Yeah. It's, it's a, i I, I start every presentation with that quote and it's, it's beautiful. It's, yeah. Tony, it's, well, Tony Middlebrooks, I just, that's the other thing.

I've just kind of grabbed and picked the best apples from the tree and, mm-hmm. Repackaged them. Uh, well, Joel, we'll do it again. I appreciate you, sir. Thank you very, very much for the conversation. And uh, you know what, thank you. 

Dr. Joel Rothaizer: It's been a pleasure. 

I.