Moving The Needle On Leader Development with Dr. David Rosch and Dr. Dan Jenkins

Dr. David M. Rosch is an associate professor in agricultural leadership, education, and communications at the University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign, where he teaches leadership theory and studies the impact of leadership development on young people. He has been repeatedly recognized for teaching excellence and received his college’s Teaching Excellence Award. Dave serves as editor of the Journal of Campus Activities Practice and Scholarship and has held numerous leadership roles within the International Leadership Association and related organizations. He has authored more than 50 scholarly works and earned his PhD in higher education from Syracuse University.

Dr. Daniel M. Jenkins is a professor of leadership and organizational studies at the University of Southern Maine, where he teaches leadership, organizational theory, and research methods. He is co-author of The Role of Leadership Educators: Transforming Learning and has published more than 50 peer-reviewed works on leadership education and development. An award-winning international speaker and facilitator, Dan has engaged thousands on topics including leadership pedagogy, followership, and artificial intelligence. He serves in multiple leadership roles within the International Leadership Association and related professional organizations, and earned his doctorate from the University of South Florida.

A Few Quotes From This Episode

• “There’s no stable track in leader development because people are complex.”
• “We don’t need to talk about whether leadership matters. We need to understand how.”
• “Instructional strategies are the vehicle through which we facilitate leadership learning.”
• “Know why you are selecting the tools you are using.”

Resources Mentioned in This Episode 

• Book: Moving the Needle: What We Know (and Don’t Know) About Developing Leaders by Rosch, Allen, and Jenkins

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

• The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. 

About  Scott J. Allen

• Website
• Weekly Newsletter: Practical Wisdom for Leaders
• Blog

My Approach to Hosting

• The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And The Core Fear
• 4:24 Why The Book And Its Aim
• 7:09 What Counts As Instructional Strategy
• 14:09 From “Leadership Matters” To How
• 20:09 The Sequencing Puzzle Of Skills
• 25:59 What Research Shows And Misses
• 32:39 Context And Intentional Design

Transcript

Scott Allen: [00:00:00] Okay, everybody, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world today. I have two long time friends, Dr. David Rosch, Dr. Dan Jenkins, and we have. Edit a, I was gonna say co-edited a book, but what's it called when you're, there's three of you try edited.

We've edited a book. I don't know what that's called. We'll think of something cool to call that, but very excited about. This came out earlier this year and actually came out in 2025, and it's called Moving the Needle. What we know and don't know about leader development or it's called something like that.

We'll put the official name in the show notes. Do either of you remember the actual name? The, 

Dave Rosch: Yeah, what moving the needle, what we know and don't know about developing leaders. 

Scott Allen: Okay, so I was close. Thank you, Dave. 

Dave Rosch: Close enough. 

Scott Allen: Dave I started this podcast with you, and that was over five years ago, and you were episode number one, and that I remember.

[00:01:00] Yeah, it was awesome. And that episode was called I Have A Fear, and we had this really fun conversation and I'll let you give a little bit of color to it. But let's start there. Today we're gonna focus on the book that we've written. We're gonna focus on the, what we are trying to accomplish with that book.

But let's start there with the, I Have a Fear Conversation and Go forward. Is that cool? 

Dave Rosch: Sure. Yeah. It was five years ago, and there was a lot of fear in the world. I remember recording that episode in my basement being quarantined for COVID at that point in time. And the fear that, the specific fear that I remember us talking about, Scott, was about the impact of all of the billions of dollars that were spending on leader development programs in education and business.

And the fear was. Money may be doing nothing other than helping people label themselves as leaders, not developing their skills, not increasing their capacity, not recognizing their gaps, but simply stamping themselves as someone who then is a leader. We do that in higher ed. We do that [00:02:00] in, in, in business training programs.

And it's a fear because we put a lot of resources into it. We don't know a lot. We don't have a lot of empirical evidence about the impact of those programs. 

Scott Allen: So talk a little bit about the book and you and I were probably, this might have been 2022 when we first started talking about this a little bit, but talk a little bit about the impetus of this book.

Dave Rosch: Yeah so that the book itself what the subtitle, what we know and Don't Know About Developing Leaders, it was designed to help respond to that fear. And it's 34 chapters, each chapter using a different focused on a different instructional strategy designed to develop leaders and develop leaders in all the different areas where leadership development might be incurring in in schools.

Colleges and universities and business organizations and civic, in the civic arena and all of the different ways that people can spend time, effort, and energy in developing people into better leaders. And each chapter looks at what do we know? [00:03:00] How do we know this works this particular strategy?

And then what don't we know? What are we just presuming? Which then leads to what could we do to fill that gap? How can we fill the hole, the deficit in our knowledge? So that. Maybe five years from now we can eliminate the, what we don't know. The second edition of the book might be what we really now know about developing leaders after a generation of scholarship and research has been put there.

Scott Allen: Okay. So Dan Jenkins, thank you so much for being with us. And why don't you talk a little bit about instructional strategies. We have 34 chapters. We have instructional strategies. Would you define instructional strategies for listeners so everyone's on the same page? 

Dan Jenkins: Sure. Yeah. And anything that has to do with pedagogy, andragogy, instructional assessment strategies is what I geek out on.

What I love when we're talking about instructional strategies, we're talking about that vehicle, that conduit through which we facilitate learning, or in this case, leadership learning. And so one of the things that I [00:04:00] loved about this idea, when you and Dave approached me with it, and I think you you knew you had your ace in the hand anyway, when it was gonna be about pedagogy because, my dissertation research was all on what are the most.

Frequently used strategies that we use in instruction which later turn into some more research around assessment strategies and learning goals and, online, face-to-face, synchronous learning, asynchronous learning, hybrid spaces and how do we do this work when we're in. The leadership classroom and we're thinking about higher ed context, but also, more broadly in our training and development spaces that might be adjacent to or outside of higher education.

And, it this project as well as as a project that Dr. Kathy Guthrie and I co-authored a book called The Role of Leadership Educators Transforming Learning where we spend about about. Half of that book looking at different pedagogical strategies as well. I'm putting 'em within the lens of higher education, student development, and what have you, was this idea of [00:05:00] how do we continue to develop that capacity around, what we know and what we don't.

And this idea of leadership educators, folks that work in education, training, development spaces, what do they actually know about the ins and outs of these different approaches? It brings me back to when I was doing a pilot study. For what became my dissertation research, and I was meeting with someone in my program that I taught with in the leadership minor at University of South Florida, and I said, Hey, when you think about your teaching, what are the, what's the.

Instructional strategy that you would say you go to most? What do you tend to lean on? And her response was Dale, what kind of instructional strategies are there? I don't have names for these things. And I'm like, oh wow, okay. Like, how do we move that needle?

And so part of, what I put forth in the early parts of my career was, how do I help? The folks in my own community of practice to, to move that needle and develop their capacity a little bit more so that we have a shared language about these, around these different tools and strategies and approaches that may, we might use to do the thing that we're trying to do anyway.[00:06:00]

Scott Allen: Yeah. And so I think. You hit the nail on the head here. And so we might be using a 360 assessment. We might be using case in point methodology. We might be using action learning or action research or lecture, lecture methodology or small group discussions. But what do we actually know about how they are used in leadership learning how they, with the effectiveness.

And Dave, I'd love to go back to you now. What do we know? What do we don't know? What are some observations you have? 

Dave Rosch: Yeah I remember I'll start with this. I remember sitting in a session with being given by Dr. Becky Riker at Claremont Graduate College, and she was talking about a study that her research team had done looking at 50 years of leadership research.

And the main point that she was talking about and she like, she got increasingly cynical in the way she was making this point, is that we have 50 years of research that says that leadership matters. Which is great. Leadership matters. We [00:07:00] know leadership matters. And she got to the point where she was saying, can we stop doing research about whether leadership matters?

We know that it matters but what we don't know is how does it matter? And I think that gets at some of the things that we're trying to talk about. We know how influential. A great leader to an organization can the effects that organizational leader can have on the health, on the progress, on the achievement, on the success of that organization.

We don't know how. In a lot of different ways, and I think that needs to be something that we focus on, especially in the educational field. I think when we're talking about development, when we're talking about training, when we're talking about capacity building in students, what we don't have a great picture on, what are the specific things that people need to do when X happens in an organization to help them then.

Overcome that obstacle, whatever x, whatever obstacle X [00:08:00] is causing. And I think that needs to be a focus of the scholarship of the field of leader development. We know that leaders matter. We know that their development is important. We know that organizations are successful when these leaders have self-reported high skills.

We need to do a little bit more to unlock that puzzle of when someone knows how to do X, they can solve Y and when they can solve, Y organizations can achieve Z. I would love to have a little bit more focus on that. 

Scott Allen: It. It's a conversation the three of us have had a number of times about how we scaffold this learning and what do we know about how we scaffold the learning.

That, that learning has been scaffolded in medical schools. That learning has been scaffolded in pilot training and at times, I don't know that we're super clear. Not only about what needs to be taught when, but how we teach that and what is the best way for us to communicate that information and help internalize that information [00:09:00] so that someone has the knowledge, the skills, the experience as we've talked about before.

Dan, what do you think? 

Dan Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. You're speaking my language again. I think so much about the developmental sequencing, conundrum, right? I it is one of the holy grails of our field. When I think about you mentioned pilot training and, I think about, math as an analogy all the time.

You gotta learn, you gotta learn algebra before you can learn trig. Trig before precalc before calc. Otherwise it wouldn't be called precalc. And then you go into whatever it is that engineers do, right? With PLOS and spaceships and stuff, right? And but with leadership it's do you learn ethics Before you talk about teams and groups, do you talk about org culture before you talk about, public speaking and delegation and empowerment, like in what order do we do this in? And there's been a little bit of research. I know Corey s Miller, rich Ritney have written about that and developing some of that, taxonomy around leadership competencies. And that's one approach and it's a good approach.

And I think there's a lot of ways that we can look at it and looking at leadership curriculum, whether it be at the undergraduate [00:10:00] or graduate level. There's certainly some themes but I think we're still trying to unpack what is. The right order to teach these things and, to kinda the points that I think you were somewhat alluding to, both, both and Dave is, okay if we're trying to get, leaders to do X, Y, and Z, what, where are those skilled deficits?

Okay. If these are the skill deficits the knowing being, doing whatever you wanna call it what. Pedagogical interventions are going to facilitate learning in those areas. How do we intentionally select. Instructional strategies, pedagogies to target particular gains in X, Y, or Z. What's expected?

What are the expected learning goals at each stage of a learner's development? What types of learning are appropriate to attain certain things? Not just. Appropriate for what needle we're trying to move, but what's also developmentally appropriate for learners. When I'm working with undergrads, it's a lot different than if I'm doing consulting with an engineering firm, right?

Different types of different types of pedagogies [00:11:00] or what some folks would say, don't use the pedagogy word, use the andragogy word, right? These are adults. But we also know that adults sometimes learn a lot better, like kids or that there are ways to facilitate learning that work well with kids that also work really well.

With adults. We just know that adults have a lot more lived experiences of which to to incorporate in and to facilitate as part of the learning process than five and six year olds. 

Scott Allen: And outside of academia, no one knows what andragogy or pedagogy really means. 

Dan Jenkins: That's right. And it's an ongoing, although the way that I describe it, I, this is the best way I can describe that.

And it goes to the lived experiences. An I don't know, analogy or example right before we left Florida, I took my daughter, I think she was five at the time, my oldest daughter on a field trip with her class with her preschool to a state park. And, there's 50 preschoolers and they're about to go on a nature walk and the park rangers trying to talk about what's going on and wants to get there.

Get everyone's attention and, says something about, the types of animals that they might see on the nature [00:12:00] walk and says, does anybody have any questions? And she had just talked about some of these animals that we might see on the nature. Walk 50 preschoolers, hands go up and she says no, no stories, only questions.

And 50 hands went down. Because that's where they're at. It's like this one time I saw an alligator and, and that's not what we're looking at, right? We're trying to get, we're trying to build a different type of capacity with adults than we are with than we are with preschoolers.

Scott Allen: Well and Dave, I think one, one thing, at least for me, that. That I took away is that there's a lot of opportunity as we went chapter to chapter, and again for listeners, it's 34 chapters of interventions. We're calling them instructional strategies, but assessments something like the MBTI or the disc.

What do we actually know? How what impact is this having? And so any number of these different interventions that we can use to teach once the scaffolding is making sense. What do you [00:13:00]think? What'd you walk away? What was your impression as you look across the 34 chapters? I know research is your jam and what'd you see?

Dave Rosch: Some of these strategies have been around for a long time. The Myers-Briggs, for example, has been around for a long time. Some of these strategies have only really begun to emerge over the past decade or two. EE even more recently than that, we had a chapter in on artificial intelligence, for example, and how to use generative chat-based AI as a tool for a leader development.

But still the typical frame of a, of the chapter of any, all the chapters is what do we know about why this thing works? And then what don't we know? What should we know? What do we need to know about its effectiveness to. Be more intentional about its application and themes that shot up around most of the chapters is the research that has been brought to bear about the typical instructional strategy is researcher X studied a small population of people that were recipients of the instructional strategy.

They said that it [00:14:00] worked really well for them. It satisfied their need for what they wanted to learn. It researcher y went into an organization and looked at the people that had received this strategy, and many of them did not get fired. So we're calling that a success. And that's what the research.

Said now that's positive research, right? Like I, I wouldn't read that and say we don't know anything about that strategy. We do know about that strategy. We know that it can be well received if it's given we know that it meets a lot of people's needs. We know that it gives people a sense of confidence that they could apply leadership capacities in the environments where they're at.

That's what the research says. What it doesn't say yet. I'm hoping that this is a, yet that growth mindset. 

Scott Allen: Love that, boom. Carol 

Dave Rosch: Dweck. Yeah. It's the it's the opportunity that you're talking about in this book, Scott. It's the, what we don't know yet is what that strategy unlocks. So I now have I've, I spent a day with people learning about my personality from an MBTI perspective.

I'm using this as a random example. [00:15:00] What does that unlock in me as it relates to my leader development in the context where I'm at? And I think that's, that question sounds really simple. Why have we not done anything like that? That's actually, I think, a pretty deceptively difficult. Question to answer because there's not just one Dave, there's 8 billion Daves.

And of the, all the context in which leadership. Leader development is happening. There's billions of contexts and how someone leads IBM is different than how someone leads Girl Scouts of America, which is different than how someone is a little league coach. There are clearly connections, right? The person there, there are connections between how someone could be successful in all of those environments, but there are also pretty clear differences.

I think that as you like, opportunity is a great key theme emerging from this is that there are so many opportunities to look at how would understanding my personality help run a Fortune 500 company? How does understanding my personality help as a little league [00:16:00] coach? And then the next step is let's look at how that's similar and how that's different.

And then that is how we build our field. And that's I think where we could, where we have the opportunity to advance in understanding our knowledge about the process of leader development. 

Dan Jenkins: Yeah. 

Scott Allen: Dan, anything you wanna add? 

Dan Jenkins: Yeah, I think about you, you're talking about context Dave a lot, right?

Yeah. And I think about it brings me to a connection to the International Leadership Association had this global team of folks that. Four or five years ago had this task force where they put together these general principles for leadership programs.

And one of the sections of that I had opportunity to help with a team of folks from, from about four different countries on that particular section was this I idea of, how do we how do we fine tune the intentionality around the learning, the teaching and learning practices that we choose.

And that being driven by what we termed, which we borrowed from d Fink's work on creating significant learning experiences, what he calls situational factors. We termed it more like ul contextual factors, right? It's [00:17:00] all these questions about what do you know about your learners? And what do you know about yourself as that facilitator of learning?

And those questions are not, it's not what's your favorite food? What's your favorite color? It's demographics. How big is your class? How small is your class? Where are your learners coming from? What are their, the, how big is your program? How small is your program?

How big is your university? Is it a, is it a. Religious based university is a public university. Is it a predominantly white, predominantly Hispanic? What part of the world is it? Are you teaching online, face-to-face? All of these things have impacts on the types of instructional strategies that you might use to, to facilitate learning. And then I think, also that, I think that leans towards, what I would love to see, or I think what, the ultimate goal in some of the work that I do is being, going back to that capacity building. If folks could leave a workshop or a seminar that you know, that I had a hand in facilitating it would be that they.

Now know more about how to intentionally or more intentionally and with care and precision, select the right types of learning interventions, be based on what the [00:18:00] context is of the situation that they're trying to of the learners in their programs or what have you. That, that then they'll be able to say, okay, here are the things that I'm trying to do.

Here are my learning goals. Here are my hopes and dreams for these folks in this environment. Now I can select the, the learning activities and how I'm gonna assess that learning and be able to do it with some intentionality as opposed to, Hey Scott, I like case studies. Dave, you like case studies?

Let's do a case study. And that what do we doing right? 

Scott Allen: Dave, you, me, you mentioned something before we started recording that. I just wanna, I think it's really interesting. I'm going to, this is gonna feel like a left turn, no pun intended, but I'm watching F1. Have either of you seen F1?

Great film. 

Dave Rosch: Great 

Scott Allen: film. Great film, right? Yeah. And of course we have the scene and of course this would be the same thing in pilot training where we're gonna put someone in the simulator and this person is gonna practice and practice and practice. And we can put someone in a golf simulator, we can put someone in a flight simulator.

A challenge that I continue to see is that we don't have an ability to [00:19:00] scale some of the practice that needs to happen, that skill building that I think a lot of technology's really gonna unlock. I think in the future when we can put someone in a holodeck. Yeah. And maybe they have on AR glasses or maybe it's just I'm in a room like I'm in right now and I can actually practice negotiation, practice leading a meeting, practice, giving a presentation.

I don't know. I just, I really liked that chapter on AI because I think it's gonna unlock a lot of opportunity for us. Dan, I know this is a passion of yours. 

Dan Jenkins: Yeah. 

Scott Allen: So what are you thinking? 

Dan Jenkins: There's so much opportunity in those areas and some of the folks that, I've had opportunities to, to chat with on, on one of the other podcasts that, that I've been working on the Leaders in the Loop podcast.

I know you've had Gary Lloyd on your podcast and I have. Have as well. And Greg Allen is also has a Leadership Labs project that he's been working on, I'm hoping to chat with him soon on that podcast. And it's being able to simulate these types of [00:20:00] conversations, not just text-based, but voice-based.

And then ideally, I think, we're getting towards what you're thinking about of are we able to do this with. With live avatars that simulate what real people look like with nonverbals and reactions and changes in the tone of their voice and what have you. And then also being able to do that, in some type of virtual reality or augmented reality space.

And, I think about, the Google glasses and the meta glasses, and being able to get some of that real time feedback. That is I, where I've seen that where I guess it could go and where I have seen some some pilot versions of some of this stuff is like during meetings, you're having a meeting and you get a little, alert from your chat bot.

That's you can be a little more assertive here. Hey, can you stop touching your face? You know so much hey, look at the camera. And all these things over time can help to develop that capacity. And, some of the feedback that you get when those types of interactions are recorded and summarize and analyzed is, Hey, do you wanna work on A, B and [00:21:00] C?

'cause you did a lot of that last time. Can we set up a customized. Program where you're gonna role play and work on those particular skills. Wow, now we're doing something where we don't need human capacity necessarily, or human capital to, I don't need to be like, Hey Dave, can you come in and do this with me?

I was just chatting with someone who was working with medical medical school education, and he said one of the things we spend so much money on is hiring actors to come in and pretend to be patients. What if we could do that with ai could, that could simulate what it's like, to actually have these physician patient interactions and really move the needle and without having to use so much of people's valuable tie because actors are expensive.

They have unions after all. 

Scott Allen: Then Dave, where I was going with this in in, when I first set it up is. I think one limitation is funding one, one limitation. Obviously there's billions of dollars invested in F1. There's billions of dollars invested in flight school and flight training, and I don't know that we have that.[00:22:00]

In leader development, billions of dollars are being spent. But how much is actually going into really truly investing in the future of doing this work? Like growing up a little bit, I feel like we are in the paper and pencil era still at times when we need to grow up as a field. If we really want to get serious about truly training in a well-rounded way, not just, Hey, I gave you the exam.

You got an a. Now you're a leader. No. Truly preparing people to be successful, right? 

Dave Rosch: Yeah. I and to, and we're talking about F1, right? Like one of the things that I think leadership educators and leader, developer and trainers can take away is that what, when we. F1 puts millions of dollars into the simulation.

The simulation that the Brad Pitt character is practicing on, he knows every time he gets into the simulation, he drives straight for 300 meters, and then they have a hairpin left turn, which he needs to take at [00:23:00] 142 kilometers an hour. And that's how he practices, and it's based on a stable track.

There's no stable track in leader development because people are complex, people are different. Context change, but that doesn't mean that we can't practice. And to Dan's point too I've referenced Becky Riker she also, her work is ironic that it's coming up now twice, that I'm bringing up her twice.

She does behavioral assessment and putting people in simulations where, and these are mostly execs who are in MBA programs, for example. Yeah. Where. This rising exec would literally be putting up a simulation with human actors where they're given a challenge and they were they're instructed to respond and there's cameras on them.

There's microphones, they're being recorded, and then later on they get a pretty comprehensive assessment of their behaviors. Positive and negative. Yeah. And what she talks about in this and I'm talking to her about this because I'm trying to figure out how to simulate some of this in higher ed with undergraduate students, not just MBA students that are paying thousands of dollars for the experience.

Can we do this in a co-curricular [00:24:00] situation, one of the things she talks about is how much effort, energy, and money this takes. Yeah. For her to bring one person. Through a simulation over the course of an hour, all the hours that have to go into that, all the dollars that have to go into that. And so some of the things that we were talking about before we, we started recording is.

Funding. How is the scholarship of leader development funded? And it's not funded even close to the level of which people talk about it. Everyone's talking about how important leader development is. Everyone. That's the problem, right? Everyone around the world talks about how important leader development is.

I remember as a young faculty member going through some grants training at the here where I teach at the University of Illinois. And I remember being told very explicitly, very nicely, but very explicitly, from funding agencies in the federal government, Dave. We know how important leader development is in the work of your scholarship is, but we are trying to teach fourth graders how to read because if they don't learn how to read, [00:25:00] their trajectory is gonna take a left turn for the rest of their lives.

Or alternatively, we are trying to teach people how dangerous it is to use marijuana. Throw an example out, right? Because if they don't know that they might be taking 20 years off of their living. We talk about how lead, how important leader development is, but we haven't really put our funding. Sources where our mouths are, and I'm not necessarily blaming the United States federal government, but overall, I think that's the case.

That's not just the United States Federal Government that's any agency Yeah. That cares about leader developments. We need to do. A better, more comprehensive, more organized job of assessing its strengths and weaknesses. I remember listening to, to Barbara Kellerman a few years ago talking about the professionalization of the field.

Yeah. And I think that we need to do that that the organization required to do some of the scholarship that Dan and I are talking about requires a little bit more of a [00:26:00] funding organization also in being able to put our money where our mouths are. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. A lot of opportunity. I think we're talking, in some ways we're talking about these instructional strategies as critical to the learning.

But we're also in this conversation, we've talked a little bit about scaffolding. How do we scaffold that learning? I walk into some rooms and people are talking about complexity and it's a course of sophomores. No, that's and Dave, you and I have talked about are, is even starting with theory the right place?

Do we just start building some habits of mind and really ensuring that people can actively listen? Is that where we start some of this work? So there's still some questions in that space. So that, that scaffolding and then we've got the challenge, a little bit of scale. How do we scale the learning for all these individuals?

And we're not having to pay actors, but how do we individualize and scale individualized learning for each one of us? Because every one of us are gonna have different. Rough edges and strengths and [00:27:00] areas that we're gonna, maybe I'm more conflict avoidance, so I need to spend a little more time in that space to really build that skill.

But there's a lot of opportunity there. And then I know that there's a lot of opportunity when it comes to evidence-based leader development. And Dave let's close down with you. You happen to be an editor of a journal. Yes. And would you talk about some of the opportunity that's out there for any of our listeners as you think about this space?

It's wide open. It feels

Dave Rosch: so thanks, Scott. The for me plugging my journal, it's the Journal of Leadership Education. It's published by Emerald Publishing House. Any Google search will bring you to that journal. And it's a journal that is very explicitly and specifically focused on.

The process of leader development. How do we educate people? How do we help people learn? How do we help people grow and develop into the types of leaders that we want them to be? One of the things that I think when most people who are not in academia, who aren't college university professors as Dan and I are right, most people when they think about academic journals, they think about.

Boring, long, [00:28:00] esoteric, no complicated articles that, who would wanna read that other than as help to fall asleep? And I think that there's some grains of truth to that. 

Scott Allen: Oh, 

Dave Rosch: yes. But at the same time. At the same time. I think this journal what I really love about Joel, the Journal of Leader Development leadership education, is that, say that 

Scott Allen: again.

Say that again. What I love 

Dave Rosch: about Yeah. What I really love about Joel Journal of Leadership Education is that it. Focuses not just on empirical research and we're talking about the importance of empirical research, but it also talk, it also has a place for the people who talk about the stories of leader development, how do their students go through an experience?

How does a training setting need to be set up to be successful from a participant perspective? And it places. Importance, not just on tenure track faculty members whose job it is to take all of this money and do some of this scholarship. It also is a place for consultants. It's a place for administrators.

It's a place for [00:29:00] educators to read about and even conduct some of the scholarship to help advance our field too. 

Scott Allen: Love it. And Dan, I want you to have a little bit of time to plug your two podcasts because they're essential. So would you talk a little bit about that? And then we're gonna wind down.

Dan Jenkins: Very glad to. Yeah. The, and I know you've welcomed Lauren and I on your podcast in the past the, so our podcast and Lauren is faculty at Temple University, associate professor of instructor there, and it's called the Leadership Educator Podcast. We've been doing that since very late in 2019.

And it's, a place to build the capacity of folks that are doing the same stuff we're talking about here, developing the capacity of of. Leadership, educators folks that work in leadership development and training spaces tends to be a little bit higher ed centric. But we've also bring in folks from industry all the time.

We're talking about teaching tools. We're talking about teaching strategies, we're talking about leadership programs. We're talking about folks that are, experimenting with different types of things in their classrooms and they're in their places and spaces where they're doing that type of work.

As [00:30:00] well as folks that are working in professional associations and communities of practice that are adjacent to our work, including things like management, education as well. And then the other podcast is a newer project we've just started getting, going earlier. And I guess at about midway of 20, 25 Leaders in the Loop.

And that is with my great colleague Gar Kana, who's an AI executive for Cisco Systems. And it's been just really fascinating to have conversations with him and with our guests because of the industry knowledge that he brings and being a computer engineer. With a great background and being able to talk to folks from IBM and Michigan Virtual and and, system office chief information officers and things of that nature.

And so what we're looking at there is this intersection between leadership, learning and ai. And I'd say the scope is, what about leadership learning and ai and where that, those things intersect. And what about those folks that are responsible for implementing and facilitating the adoption of AI in their systems and organizations and [00:31:00] associations and how are they how are they managing that or leading that, if you will?

Scott Allen: Fun stuff. Fun stuff. Okay, gentlemen I'm closing out the podcast with a little bit of a different question nowadays, and that question is this, what's the practical wisdom that you would take away from our conversation today? So Dave, maybe we'll start with you. What's the practical wisdom here? 

Dave Rosch: Yeah.

So where my head goes is I'm the tenure track faculty member who's the editor of a research journal. Where I'm thinking about is if I'm a faculty member, if I'm someone who is engaged in the process of helping the world better understand the process of leader development, like the phrase that I sticking in my head that I probably, because I said it a couple times, is unlocking the process.

What does the process need to look like? How do we need to unlock it so that we can do it more? You talked about scope, you talked about scale. We were talking about, Dan was talking about context and contextual factors 

Scott Allen: and evidence. 

Dave Rosch: Evidence. Yeah. We, as faculty members, we don't, we know, need to talk about the impact of [00:32:00] leadership.

We know that it's impactful. We need to understand how. 

Scott Allen: Love it, Dan. 

Dan Jenkins: Yeah, I would say I, I'll borrow from the definition of active learning, which is doing things and learning about the things that you're doing. Take the time to learn about the pedagogies that you're using in your programs.

If you're someone who is facilitating leadership learning, you work in leadership, education, development, or training, what are you doing? What do you know about the things that you're doing? Why are you selecting case studies? Simulation games, 360 Myers Briggs know why. Talk about intentionality, learn about the intentionality.

Take that time to not only be playful with it, but to understand it in and out. And you'll have a lot more fun and you'll be a lot more effective. 

Scott Allen: Love it. Dave. I'm excited to have a conversation with you five years from now to see if you still have a fear. 

Dave Rosch: Hopefully, hopefully it'll be, I have less fear.

Scott Allen: That's gonna be the last episode of this. Whenever that happens, I'll be in a hospital bed and I'll be like, Dave, he's all up here now. [00:33:00]

Dave Rosch: Yes. Now that we have answered every question. 

Scott Allen: Oh, gentlemen, thank you so much. I appreciate you always so much fun to be with you and just explore dialogue and just I think the world of the two of you.

So until next time, be well. 

Dave Rosch: Thanks for having us.