Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott J. Allen, Ph.D.

Courageous Followership with Ira Chaleff

• Scott J. Allen • Season 1 • Episode 317

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Ira Chaleff is an author, speaker, and executive coach in the greater Washington, DC, area. His extensive experience with the US federal government includes directing and chairing the nonpartisan Congressional Management Foundation, where he is now Chair Emeritus. 

Ira co-authored the original handbook for newly elected Members of Congress, now in its fifteenth edition, and has facilitated over a hundred retreats for congressional offices. He has led and participated in Democracy strengthening programs in Asia and West Africa and consulted for Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty in Eastern Europe.

He has been an adjunct faculty member at the Federal Executive Institute and a visiting leadership scholar at Churchill College, Cambridge University in England. Ira served two terms on the Board of Directors of the International Leadership Association and is the founder of its Followership Community.

Ira speaks on courageous followership and intelligent disobedience at a wide variety of institutions, including the US Department of State, the US Naval Academy, the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst, the European Commission of the EU, and many others.

Quotes From This Episode

  • “Sometimes it’s courageous to conform. Discernment matters as much as courage.”
  • “Followers are as responsible for bringing out the best in leaders as leaders are for bringing out the best in followers.”
  • “If followership education only teaches compliance, should we be surprised when adults conform to poor leadership?”

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

  • The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. 

About  Scott J. Allen

My Approach to Hosting

  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective.



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Introduction and Welcome


Scott Allen: Okay, everybody, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world. Today it's not practical wisdom for leaders. It's called Practical Wisdom for followers today on the podcast 'cause we have Ira Chaleff back. I think this might be your fourth time a ira. And I definitely appreciate you being here.

For those who are listening, check out previous conversations with Ira. Always a fun conversation and he has helped inform my thinking about the topic of leadership and followership and management. Over the years, and I view him as a mentor and as a scholar, and as an individual who is just wise in this space.

And Ira, A, thank you for being here again. And B, let's take this conversation in the following direction. What's on your radar? You have such a wonderful historical viewpoint on the topic of followership. Obviously your books are. [00:01:00] Like foundational in reading on the topic. And I'm really interested kind of how you're thinking about things right now in our current context.

This is January, 2026. What's top of mind for you, sir? 

Reflections on Turning 80


Ira Chaleff: Amongst other things, I hit a milestone this year. I turned 80 years old. 

Scott Allen: What? 

Ira Chaleff: Yes. Now that makes me officially an elder of the leadership and followership community. So therefore I can pontificate, with the great certainty that the pearls of wisdom that will dribble from my mouth.

Literally and figuratively, we'll be listened to as precious, words of deep wisdom. So that's what's on the top of my mind. 

Scott Allen: My a newfound legitimate of. Authority. [00:02:00] Yeah. I 

Ira Chaleff: love it. Yes, and it's interesting what it does internally. There's a subtle shift and other people, my cohort is turning 80 that I grew up with, and there's this internal shift where you feel, wow.

I didn't necessarily expect to arrive here, and there's something about it that gives me a certain extra responsibility because the question is, what am I leaving behind? Of course, hopefully 10 years from now or whatever, but nevertheless, what am I leaving behind? So to start with, I could not be more proud or grateful.

Global Followership Community

Ira Chaleff: Of the global followership community. 

If I sailed off into Nirvana today after we had this delicious talk, I have no qualms whatsoever that followship is alive and well and vibrant and new ways of thinking about it and teaching it [00:03:00] are in full bloom. 

Scott Allen: Yes. 

Ira Chaleff: So in that sense, from a legacy point of view, I feel wonderful. 

Scott Allen: Wow. 

Ira Chaleff: Now, at the same time, there are a couple of deficiencies. 

Challenges in Leadership and Followership


Ira Chaleff: One of the things I've observed in both the leadership community and the followership community, and I, to some degree blame, quote unquote, academia for this I see that our PhD process. So forces people into narrower and narrower ways of looking at things and measuring things in order to satisfy their dissertation committees, et cetera.

And I miss the bigger global views that earlier generations of leadership scholars would take in their work. 

One of the, one of the consequences of this is that while there's a lot of [00:04:00] terrific work in on followership in small groups, whether in the nursing community or the military or whatever, I don't see the global holding the global frame here.

And from my point of view, you'll remember, Scott, from our earlier conversations. That what initially brought me to this field was my childhood experience of learning that my maternal grandmother had lost her whole family in the Holocaust. 

Scott Allen: Yeah, 

Ira Chaleff: and the question, the burning question, why do people follow such destructive leaders?

And can we do anything different? 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Ira Chaleff: In my latest attempt at contributing thought to that, the book I've most recently released is to stop a tyrant, the Power of Political Followers. What I have found in the followship community is there is not [00:05:00] enough crossover between leadership and followship and.

Governing and citizenship. And we need, we really deeply need to find ways to make those connections more robustly. So I am exhorting the followship community and looking for individuals within the community. Who have some sort of sense of calling into this space, and I am interested in doing anything I can to help them develop their voice in this direction.

So that's one of the main things that I'm focused on at this time. I. 

Scott Allen: Talk a little bit about more, talk a little bit more about your vision for what that would look like. 

Ira Chaleff: Yeah. 

Scott Allen: Your world. How is that unfolding? What are the, some of the nuances of the topics that we're exploring? 

Ira Chaleff: Yeah. I'm not sure I'm gonna answer this exactly the way your.[00:06:00]

Leading me, but I'm gonna go back. 

Scott Allen: You're an elder, so you don't have 

Ira Chaleff: to Yeah, I Exactly. Stop. Do what you 

Scott Allen: want for the next 40 minutes. 

Ira Chaleff: Exactly. Please have patience and deference please. Okay, now, i'm gonna go back to Barbara Kellerman. We all do that these days so many times because her, one of her significant contributions was adding context to the leader follower context system.

Context in this case, of course, is political context. 

Leadership and Followership in Various Disciplines


Ira Chaleff: What I see happening, interestingly enough, and for good reason followship has had to beat on the doors of the leadership world and say no, we're just as important as you are. And the leadership world grudgingly says, yeah, you can have a few panels on our conference with a hundred other panels and this kind of thing.

What occurs to me is that we shouldn't be [00:07:00] beating on the leadership door that much. Instead, we should be beating on the door of all the other disciplines in which both leading and following. Are essential. A good leading and good following are essential. I would walk through the halls of a university and say, let's look at the political science department.

Let's look at the sociology department. Let's look at the psychology department and let's see. How we can bring the emerging and developing wisdom of followership dynamics into those conversations more robustly. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. I think of history as I understand it, for some of the historians I've had on the podcast, it's almost and maybe you've heard this, maybe you disagree with this, but in that stream at least, and there's a word for it.

I forget the name of it. Martin Gutman could tell me, but it almost decenters the [00:08:00] individuals, the leaders, and the followers, and really focuses on the context. 

It, they, in fact, I was speaking with a history professor once, and he says, we really don't talk about leadership in history.

And that was interesting. So yeah, I, I can very much see sociology, political science. Psychology, 

Ira Chaleff: nursing 

Scott Allen: Not so myopic on this kind of elevation of just the leader. Does that make sense? 

Ira Chaleff: Yes. Ab a ab absolutely. The now the, there's another differentiation though between us and historians and that is.

At least myself, I cannot talk for myself. As I am. 

Practitioner vs. Academic Perspectives


Ira Chaleff: I'm not an academic. I'm a practitioner who's made observations about the dynamics of leading and following based on my extensive experience in Congress and federal [00:09:00] agencies internationally and in corporate America. So my tendency is to not just write descriptively, although that's very important, but then to add prescriptive suggestions.

Now this of course, is. Somewhat of an anathema. Often in other disciplines they're supposed to be looking for root causes and patterns. And maybe they can suggest at the last chapter this should lead us to think about how to change this or that. Whereas I see the value of the leadership and followership.

Communities as being dynamic experimentations in how do we do this better? And then how do we. Transfer these Petri dish experiments and what we think we've learned into the broader culture. 

Yep. 

Ira Chaleff: And how [00:10:00] does the broader culture pay attention? And of course, that's its whole own field that is desperately needs attention.

Maybe you've talked to, what's his name? Schu tki? 

Scott Allen: No, 

Ira Chaleff: I forget his first name. He's a really interesting man. I he's he works out of Connecticut at a university there, and he develops all these games. I'll get his name right for your notes if you'd like. Yeah, 

Scott Allen: sure. 

Ira Chaleff: He develops all these games that actually put people experientially and very clever.

Ways in nont traumatizing ways, but really awakening ways into what's happening. Are you talking, 

Scott Allen: are you talking about tgi? Is it tgi? Yeah. Okay. Okay. 

Ira Chaleff: No. Sh I may be adding an extra sy to his name, Ky. Okay. 

Scott Allen: Okay. 

Ira Chaleff: Might be Vinky. 

Scott Allen: Okay. 

Ira Chaleff: But he, and he comes to all the followership conferences. Okay.

He's, adds a tremendous intellect and [00:11:00] he also adds a pedagogy, which of course I know is very dear to your own heart. Yep. How do you take this stuff off the page and get it into the, neural wiring

Scott Allen: Yes. 

Ira Chaleff: Of people who then have to go out and not apply these concepts in the real.

World where there's, theoretical, conceptually, bullets flying over their heads or threats of demotion or loss of position, how do they retain the courage, the alum the compassion to hold their ground and say what needs to be said? Do what needs to be done despite the hierarchical differentiation.

Different differences in, in power. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Ira Chaleff: And this is what it's about. So if you'd like, that's gonna take me to my next big concern. 

Scott Allen: What, and we will get there, but I have two things I need to say and they aren't necessarily on what you just said, maybe a little bit. 

One.

For a [00:12:00] listener, we need to get Ira an honorary doctorate. So if you're listening and you do these things, let's get him a doctorate because he deserves it. So that's number one. We need a doctor, IRA. And number two, I've forgotten number two, but 

Ira Chaleff: Yeah. Scott I would love to have an honorary doctorate, but it's nothing like being 80 years old.

That does it just as well 

Scott Allen: about the power you would wield the wisdom and the doctorate. It would be like. 

Ira Chaleff: Oh man world stand back.

Scott Allen: I do wa I did remember what I was gonna say, IRA, and I just want to get it in here because I think at times we can falsely subjugate practitioner in academia and I think it can be looked down upon.

And for me it's very much a both end in the sense that. At times I sit in meetings with academics and it is so far, especially after now, and I said this to you before we started, especially now after being embedded in organizations for about a [00:13:00] year and a half now, full-time. The conversations in some cases, in some rooms are so far from reality of what the day-to-day human experiences in organizational life that it's as if it's Mars trying to talk to Venus.

It's just it's. Two totally different worlds. And so I think that practitioner viewpoint combined with the rigorous research that I know you do. Because I've searched for some of the journal articles for you When you said, Hey, Scott, find this article for me. I know that you're doing that rigorous research, but that, that practical, look, I've been in these government agencies, I've worked with these congressional staff members.

I know what the day-to-day is, and you understand those real dynamics. I think at times academia. Especially management leadership scholarship is so far from the work right now that I think that at [00:14:00] times we can come off really outta touch. We can come off very much out of touch, so not always.

Ira Chaleff: It's a bit like the kind and gentle souls in the spiritual community. They have beautiful language for how we should all live and be together and, state of harmony and deep compassion, and yet their language. Doesn't translate into the real, I don't mean the real world.

'cause their world may be more real frankly, but into the world of politics, of governance, of business, 

Scott Allen: the dominant paradigm. Right or wrong, just the dom. You know what I mean? Yeah. 

Ira Chaleff: And this is so important. So this is what I'm calling for and questioning do we. Encourage leadership and followership scholars to find ways to immerse themselves in those worlds like you are doing in the business world.

[00:15:00] Or do we go into those worlds and say, who in these worlds recognizes that a more conscious, development of leadership and followship best practices would help in your world. You have the language, you have the credibility. To some degree this is what was done years ago in the California has something called the.

Police officer standards of training. Okay. It's a very significant suite of programs that officers at every level are put through, and I found out, I don't know how it happened that in the sergeant level. Training program, which was a nine month program, and it included nine books that had to be read.

One of them was the Courageous Follower and 25 Lieutenants were trained by someone to teach followership in the law enforcement community. This [00:16:00] is fantastic stuff. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Ira Chaleff: And, how do we encourage more of that, is my question. 

Scott Allen: Exactly. And some of your work has been used in the military, correct?

Ira Chaleff: Yes, absolutely. Again the British military the British Army is an exemplar. They're taking Robert Kelly's work, my work. Some of Barbara Coleman's work as well, I think. And, and they put it into their not just their officer, their entire military doctrine and training from the bottom up and not just courageous followership, but my work on intelligent disobedience as well.

Yep. And, this is the and then NATO representatives attend some of these things we can see some potential of spreading throughout. The NATO community. I am blessed because I don't, it's not that I've done something so strategic that has made this happen. No, I've just put out, my voice and I've been fortunate that it's been picked up, [00:17:00] but I think it's partly because I'm speaking from the language of the practitioner.

Scott Allen: Yeah. Yep. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And you're the byline of. Your first book standing Up two and four, right? Or is it four and two? I don't have it. Memoriz 

Ira Chaleff: two and four. 

Scott Allen: Yeah, two and four are leaders and in the military, if we're about to make a bad decision, we need someone to raise their hand and have the psychological safety and the courage to say I see something.

And yes, that practitioner lens, the academic lens and that it's, for me, that sweet spot is that blend of the individual who spent a career in business or in organizational life and then got a PhD and they have this lens or vice versa. And I think it's just a powerful perspective on the world because n neither side, it's that old parable of the elephant where.

[00:18:00] People are touching different parts of the elephant, and they're these blind men. And one blind man says it's, this is a snake, and they're touching the tail. And another person said, no, this is a sword. And they're touching the tusk. And another person says, no, this is a wall. And they're touching the thigh of the elephant.

And everyone has a little bit of a different piece of the puzzle or a piece of the story. And it's all valuable. It's all incredibly valuable to better understand the whole picture, in my opinion. I really do believe that.

Ira Chaleff: I think it's breaking breaking the educational process down into.

Again, in, in into context the language, the realities in the military are significantly different than that in the educational system. In the medical system, and people who can speak those languages need to take the concepts and make them. Not just palatable, but powerful within those context, which brings me to my second concern.

Oh, 

Scott Allen: awesome. Like a wise segue right there. That was. 

Ira Chaleff: [00:19:00] Thank you. 

Scott Allen: Wisdom and action. 

Ira Chaleff: Thank you. 

Theory of Change and Education


Ira Chaleff: What's our theory of change, Scott, as a leadership community, what's our theory of change? That we're gonna take people into classrooms and maybe experiential programs and we're gonna send them back into the world and the world's gonna become a better place.

Yes, maybe marginally, but. A lot of the people that rise to the top of our political hierarchies don't and won't attend such programs, and they're more often from the Machiavellian School of Leadership where it's better be feared than loved and. They become successful in various ways, whether through democratic processes or through undemocratic processes now, so then we are [00:20:00] stuck with a Putin.

We're stuck with an Edon or what have you. They're not gonna go away just because we think that's not the right way to lead. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Ira Chaleff: So who's left to make a difference? The people around them potentially. But as we know, followers can be classified into conformists, colluders, and courageous followers.

And there's a sort of a tremendous incentive to be conformist and even coll. So there's less of an incentive to be a courageous follower. There's more risk, and yet. The health of our societies, and particularly of our liberal societies, depends on that virtue of courage. How do we change society to do that?

How do we change society to do anything? One of the ways is how do we educate our children? 

What are they being taught? And in my [00:21:00] earlier book on intelligent disobedience, I document somewhat brutally how much conformity and compliance is taught at every level of education for young children.

And. It, that's not bad in itself. We all need to know how to self-regulate and comply with the productive rules of how to live in a society. But if that's the only thing we teach, why should we then be surprised when they become adults that they're conforming to bad leadership? 

We shouldn't be, we've we've taught them that.

So my other. Vision for the future is how does the followship community and the leadership community reach out to the early education community and start to build bridges there to bring in some of the balance that [00:22:00] is needed to teach this, the, to teach much better the skills of discernment of, and the voice of productive descent. How do we do that? And I would like to I'm throwing this out again to your listeners. If there's anyone there who already has some interest in this please reach out. I would love to be in conversation with you and see how I could help you develop this theme.

Or if you're searching for a. Doctoral dissertation topic. These are the kinds of potential for deep change over generations that we need to be thinking about if we're ever gonna break out of this current. Bad leader rises, followers suffer followers, overthrow a bad leader, eventually pick another bad leader.

Instead of taking a leader who's flawed and helping shape the, their [00:23:00] better angels and, tamp down their worst instincts that can be done. This is a principle of courageous followership that we are as responsible for bringing out the best in our leaders as they are for bringing out the best in us.

Scott Allen: Yeah. It's interesting. As you were speaking, I'd never thought about it this way, but. I've been really interested in polarities recently and tensions. We could call 'em a couple different things, if you have conforming on one end of the spectrum and you have courageous on the other end of the spectrum, are we helping people navigate that tension by intentionally choosing how to skillfully intervene?

Right back to Barbara. You have the context and sometimes it's completely appropriate to conform and sometimes it's completely appropriate and probably necessary. Sometimes it's really important to be courageous. Are you even aware? Are you even [00:24:00] conscious of where you are on that spectrum and the ramifications of that, right?

Because. At times courageous may not be the right decision and 

Ira Chaleff: Sometimes it's courageous to conform. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

Ira Chaleff: I don't have all the data that the leader has. They're having to make a rapid consequential decision based on their history. I may have to manage my concerns and give them the trust that they've earned.

Yeah. That's an act of courage as well. And being able to discern, which act is an act of courage within ourselves. Yeah. As well as within the group is really critical. And secondly, when we may not have that, consciousness, but someone else in the group does, recognizing that they, their voice is something I should support right now.

Because they are the balancing potential in this crucial conversation. 

Scott Allen: Yes. [00:25:00] And then that intelligent disobedience, how do we do that?

Ira Chaleff: Exactly. Ab. Ab. Absolutely. Exactly. And this is what I was thrilled with the British Army. 

Intelligent Disobedience in the Military


Ira Chaleff: The first time they had me speak at the Royal Military Academy was not on courageous following, it was on intelligent disobedience.

And I asked the general, we had breakfast the morning before the commandant. I said, why do you want me speaking on, in, on intelligent disobedience? And he, he didn't miss a beat. He said, we are constantly introducing new protocols and new weapons systems, et cetera. None of them are gonna work perfectly.

I need people to speak up and tell me what's working, what's not working and when they should comply and when they shouldn't. And they don't do it. They've been indoctrinated not to do it their whole life. And the military. To some degree because it requires real obedience under fire has unintentionally reinforces that further.

Whereas because [00:26:00] lives are at stake, the individual soldier, war fighter, whatever, also needs to know that this is, this, the social courage Yep. Is as important as the physical courage. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Ira Chaleff: To speak up when needed. 

Scott Allen: Yep. And again, do they have that heuristic in their mind? Do they have that mindset? Do they understand when is what is appropriate and when?

And yes. So incredibly important. Incredibly important. We're gonna begin to wind down. Anything else on your mind that you want to bring up before we end our time today, sir? 

Ira Chaleff: I'll wait until a little bit of. Sensitive terrain. 

Political Leadership and Systemic Change


Ira Chaleff: We know that we are faced with a very unusual experience of political leadership in the United States.

We're [00:27:00] witnessing an enormous amount of energy that we have probably never seen in political leadership at any time. And of course, that kind of energy could be productive or destructive. We go way back to to Max Bieber. Who, talks about bureaucracy and, all of the virtues that bureaucracy has brought us in terms of not having favoritism and nepotism in this kind of thing.

But he also warned us, he said, bureaucracies do, tend to become self-referential and they begin to think they know better than the political leaders they're supposed to be serving. And at some times, these are his words, at some times, a charismatic figure needs to come along who can cut the bureaucracy back to size.

So again, we're [00:28:00] rebalancing our political system. We are witnessing some of that now. Is it being now you and the reason I'm raising this is we have to be in, in terms of your polarity management, we have to understand that this kind of leadership has positives and minuses. The more conservative leadership has positives and minuses and are.

Task as a nation is to somehow take the positive energy in this kind of leadership, political leadership, and do our best to constrain the negative aspects of this kind of political leadership and come up with some sort of change that will serve us going forward. 

We're gonna have to do a lot of s soul searching and after action reviews when the time is right to see what in our constitution needs [00:29:00] rethinking and the protections of our civil liberties.

But nevertheless. Shaking up something that's been too long in stasis has a certain virtue and this is a very difficult. Viewpoint for people to take when they are scared and they're hyperpartisan. So I find that one of my roles and to stop at tyrant is to try to give people on either side of the political spectrum a way of standing in this fire and looking at what their own tendency is to conform or collude and where they need to be courageous, regardless of which side of the political spectrum.

They're on. So I would like to encourage those listeners who are struggling for themselves or their families or their organizations. This may be a source of not just a solace but of [00:30:00] empowerment for you. 

Scott Allen: It's such an interesting conversation. I had Barbara Kellerman in class one time and she said something to the effect of, and Barbara, I'm sorry if this doesn't get it exactly, but.

And I love how you're looking at it from a systemic view in the sense that, and Barbara said this, she said, look, we're running some old software as a country right now. Some things that maybe it's like dos, right to bear arms. Sure. Great. Go hunt. Fully automatic weapons on the streets.

Most humans, most Americans are gonna say probably not what we were intended to, to think about doing. And justice for life. Sure. Great. The average person passed away then The average white male at the time was about 64, whatever it was. So it wasn't, some of the ages that we're seeing today.

Ira Chaleff: You're saying justices for life? 

Scott Allen: Yeah, justices for life. Yes. And so it's interesting, our system [00:31:00] is elevating. Some extremes at times, especially in the primaries. So what is it? Our system is billions of dollars are being spent to influence. And so the system is what it is and it's elevating and it's yielding certain results again on both sides of the political rum.

So how do we, and that's where my mind often goes. How do we. Address gerrymandering on either side. I don't care if it's Illinois or if it's Texas. 

Ira Chaleff: Absolutely. 

Scott Allen: That is not productive for a democracy gerrymandering. How do we begin to chip away at some of those dynamics? 

Ira Chaleff: I'm gonna leave you with a final, uplifting thought.

Oh, good. 80 and very wise. I think we can use a metaphor of the body politic has been invaded by some [00:32:00] call them viruses and. Initially it goes into shock and it, it wonders whether it'll survive, but because it's a very adaptive organism, it starts to develop the antibodies or whatever the the protections against viruses are.

When it comes out, it is now better equipped to meet the future challenges that it will receive. Yeah. And with enough wisdom. And that wisdom probably includes getting a lot of the 80-year-old office holders. Back to their farms like I've done and getting in these, very bright, energetic 30, 40 year olds, whatever, and getting them to really figure out how do we move from where we are.

Constitutionally, but [00:33:00] we're holding that as our bedrock. But how do we do the inundations needed in order to be a more robust and adaptive system going forward? And I believe that will happen whether it happens sooner or later, more painfully or less painfully, I can't predict but it, but that is my belief, it will happen.

Scott Allen: Yep. 

Final Thoughts and Practical Wisdom


Scott Allen: And you have worked with individuals at the highest levels on both sides of the aisle, and so that wisdom is appreciated, sir. Now, final question for you in two or three sentences, what is the practical wisdom for our listeners today? 

Ira Chaleff: Live well enough to get old so that you too can be wise and be helpful to the next generation.

Scott Allen: I love it. I love it. Thank you, sir. Always a pleasure. I appreciate it. 

Ira Chaleff: Thank you, Scott.