Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott J. Allen, Ph.D.

AI as Your Manager (and Leader) with Dr. David V. Day

• Scott J. Allen • Season 1 • Episode 313

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Dr. David V. Day holds appointments as Professor of Psychological Science and Leadership and serves as the Academic Director of the Kravis Leadership Institute at Claremont McKenna College in California (USA). He has published more than 100 peer-reviewed journal articles, books, and book chapters, many pertaining to the core topics of leadership and leadership development and is the author of the recent book titled “Developing Leaders and Leadership: Principles, Practices, and Processes.” David received the 2024 Eminent Scholar Award from the Network of Leadership Scholars at the Academy of Management and the Lifetime Achievement Award from the International Leadership Association.

Quotes From This Episode

  • “AI can absolutely substitute for management. Leadership is a different question.”
  • “The future is not whether AI can lead. It’s when.”
  • “Expert power increasingly favors AI. That changes everything.”

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

  • The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. 

About  Scott J. Allen

My Approach to Hosting

  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective.



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Scott Allen: Okay everybody, I have David Day and for those of you who are longtime listeners, you know who he is. A professor at Claremont McKenna in California, in the United States, and just a world class scholar on leader development. We had the conversation almost already. We should have been recording what we were talking about, but we're gonna try and have that conversation again right now and really.

We're gonna take the dialogue today. 

AI's Impact on Leadership and Management

Scott Allen: Little bit of a thought experiment, little bit reality, AI's impact on leadership and management. And I had just shared an article with Dave before we jumped on here that a gentleman in Amazon, an Amazon employee, had been fired by the algorithm and got a message from the system, I guess that was told you no longer.

A job. 

David Day: I think it's called Big Brother 

Scott Allen: that is called, that is, it's, we're in the year in 1984. [00:01:00] And so I think, let's start there, Dave. Just leadership management, ai. What are some things you are thinking about right now? How are you thinking about this wide open space? 

David Day: One of the things that I've been thinking about is.

What are the implications for the future of human leadership? Will we need human leaders? It was 50 years ago there was this. What's now considered a classic paper in one of our academic journals called the Substitutes for Leadership, Karen Jamir. And they didn't have the foresight to think about AI as a substitute for leadership.

They looked at task kinds of conditions. They looked at certain aspects of subordinates. If you have proactive subordinates who are also very very smart, do you really need to have leaders? For them, and it's a, it was an interesting and provocative article. Can [00:02:00] AI serve as a substitute for leadership?

I think that one is a little bit more provocative than being a substitute for management. I think it can definitely be a substitute for management, because management, if you think about it as working within the status quo to do things more efficiently and product productively than I think getting.

Nudges, getting advice, getting reviews from an AI agent who is your manager. Makes sense. But the notion of being an AI leader is something different. And think about leadership is really being about change. 

And also thinking about being a, about adaptability and innovation. Maybe improvisation.

Those are things that for now AI is not really so good at, but this whole industry is changing so quickly. Will it be possible in [00:03:00] and when will it be possible? I think it's, is more the right question than if it ever will be possible. 

AI in Management: Real-World Examples

Scott Allen: Okay, so let's stick on management for a moment because I think you know this example of this Amazon employee.

I believe it was a delivery driver who just wasn't productive enough and the system fired him. Yes. We have sensor technology, we have ai, we have productivity metrics probably produced very readily in a number of these roles at the end of each day. And it's gonna be very, if we think of management as, an old definition was.

Plan, organize, control, and lead. That's what managers did, and but if we think about just the plan, organize, control element of all of this, I think these systems really will be fairly well equipped to track my productivity, whether it's my emails just on any number of different fronts, right?

David Day: Absolutely. [00:04:00] And it, think about how that will change the modern organization potentially. Oh, rather than the pyramid, we might have something that looks more like an hourglass where a lot of the middle management is actually. The human middle management is pretty much gone. So what are the implications for career paths?

How do you get from an individual contributor to a senior leader? That whole career trajectory is going to change big time potentially. Again, this is all speculation and one of my. Favorite quotes from Peter Drucker is, the only thing we know about the future is that it's gonna be different. And I think, an as aspect to that is it's, and we know, but we do know it's gonna be quicker, a whole hell of a lot quicker than it has been in the past.

Scott Allen: Yeah. I was watching a diary of a CEO. Podcast and it's Steven Bartlett and he had on Tristan Harris. And Tristan Harris had made the documentary social Dilemma and he cited a statistic, and it was based on [00:05:00] government numbers that generally speaking, 13% of entry level jobs, 13% fewer entry level jobs were filled last year.

So as you think of like accountants. Early career lawyers that, and I just literally the other day had a friend who owns a marketing agency. He said, we just invested probably what would've been two salaries in AI tools. He made the decision to invest in the AI tools versus two humans. So I'm starting to hear this more and more.

And to your point, what does that mean from a just a. Capability standpoint in organizational life if we don't have young accountants working their way up. What, my son's 18 he's about to be 18. He is going to college. What should he study? And these degrees right now, the University of Michigan, outta state, Dave, 84 grand.

84 grand. So now you're telling [00:06:00] me that we're gonna go ahead and do a $320,000 investment on something that's a little bit shaky and then, oh, by the way, you wanna get an MBA and that's what 120 a year at? At Harvard now. Fascinating. 

David Day: It is fascinating and quite scary. I'm glad I'm at my career stage as compared to your son's career stage.

But what we know from history is that there's always been these massive disruptions. People have always been, afraid that the jobs are going to go away and some do. They tend to be the jobs that should go away. 

Scott Allen: Yeah 

David Day: they're not really meaningful jobs other than helping to pay the bills, which is obviously important, but.

The work migrates to other kinds of things. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

David Day: The scary thing is we don't really have a clear vision of what those things will be. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. I think of let's look at shifting from agrarian to industrial as all of [00:07:00] those. Plants opened. There was a very clear path to where people were going to go.

Does that make sense? Absolutely. It was there, 

David Day: it was a physical space. There was a manufacturing plant that you could point to and walk into and. 

Scott Allen: Punch a time clock and go to work. And you built the Ford and it was black. That was the only color being offered. That's right.

That's what you, yeah. And so I think that's one thing that feels different. Not only the rate of change, so that feels a little bit different to me, but also just the. You remember this very well, even 10 years ago, the surefire bet was to be a computer scientist, and you're all set, ready to go, and now all of a sudden with the AI coding itself, how relevant is that degree now?

And so it's just, it's a. I guess cybersecurity, I would feel pretty safe. I don't think that's probably going anywhere, but yeah. Okay. 

The Future of Human Leadership

Scott Allen: So management, what other tasks from a [00:08:00] management standpoint, can you envision? Is the AI giving me feedback? 

David Day: I would assume that AI would give you feedback if it could monitor your performance.

The thing that leap to my mind is how would AI do a performance review? Yeah. And I think, you think about a typical performance review process. You have a manager who sits down with you and goes through various categories or dimensions, criteria of work performance, and outlines their opinion.

Backed with evidence, ideally around how you've performed in these various dimensions. You get some sort of rating or some sort of score and you're asked to then sign off on it if you agree with it and it goes into the file for another year. Could AI do that? Oh yeah, they could do that. Sorry.

Sorry about that. Just 

Scott Allen: say, oh yeah, they could do that. 

David Day: Oh, yeah, they could do that. 

Scott Allen: And I imagine even [00:09:00] as we, you and I were talking a little bit about Bridgewater and some of the stories that were told in Everyone Culture, the book by Keegan and Associates, where they were recording all of their meetings.

So I can imagine also that the AI could be providing me feedback, you spoke. 60% in that meeting, and you're, the words you used were not positive and slow down a little bit. 70% of your ideas were not taken. 

David Day: Yeah, absolutely. Dalio, Ray Dalio has a TED Talk that was I thought really.

Interesting about Bridgewater and its culture. It's a little bit dated now. It was from 20 17, 20 18, but he talked about radical transparency and algorithmic decision making. Yep. And the radical transparency you just identified in terms of everything was recorded, every meeting that was held on campus in Bridgewater was recorded.

Either video recorded or audio recorded. And here's the other thing, if [00:10:00] your name was mentioned in any of these meetings. You would get an email saying, your name came up in this meeting. Here's a link to the recording. You may want to check it out. So that's what they're saying. Yeah. This is why something like 35% of the people who hire into Bridgewater washed out in 18 months, because a lot of people just can't handle that kind of radical transparency.

But the other piece of this, he called algorithmic decision making, which was. Really in early versions of AI, where he would embed his principles into these algorithms. Yep. That would sit aside the human decision making, which he claimed helped improve their decision making massively, but. Those algorithms can be used for other purposes as well, as you've just noted, in terms of giving people feedback and noting what their performance was like in a particular context or in a particular meeting.

Scott Allen: Yeah, 

David Day: so yeah, the computing power has [00:11:00] just, gone through the roof where anything is really possible. What I imagine. 

Scott Allen: Now I'm going to like BJ Fogg and James Clear the AI manager will say, we need 5%, just 2% more productivity tomorrow. And it'll track and you'll be driving home and you'll get a little ding and you'll know what the feedback for the day was.

David Day: I, I would say scary, but I think that's probably reality. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

David Day: And it's we think the electronic leash is a challenge now. It's going to be something that I think will, people will have to learn to live with. Work may well be decentralized that it can happen anywhere, but it also means that it can happen all the time.

Scott Allen: That's an article right there, the electronic leash, it's. Because I think it's gonna be very difficult to evade that. And wow. Okay. So [00:12:00] management, we could just dip our toes in that topic. Now, leadership, why is this gonna be more difficult? Why is this side of the kind of conversation gonna be more difficult?

At least like you, I think you said in the beginning for Yeah, ai. 

David Day: Let me. My, my thinking about this has changed a lot. 

AI and Human Relationships

David Day: I thought that there was no way that people would ever really identify, like form a relationship with ai. Huh. Now we know people are falling in love with their chat bots. People are becoming dependent on their little mini me that is an AI agent Now.

Putting this into the realm of leadership and power. When we talk about power and invoke, for example, French and Ravens, sources of power, there's some that are associated with management the legitimate power, the power that's involved in your position, reward power punishment power.

But the two, [00:13:00] two sources of power that were really. Identified by others as being about leadership or expert power and referent power. Now with expert power it's hard to compete against AI in terms of the expertise, just the body of knowledge that they have, I'm already, turning them into little people that it has, it doesn't necessarily make AI wise.

But it makes AI experts and that expertise won't take 10 years or 10,000 hours of practice either. Yeah. The other source of power that I was the most skeptical about was this notion of referent power. The power of liking, the power of identification, that, you are able to influence people who are like you and like you.

I always thought, aI people. Were just not going to really form a relationship with something that is inanimate like artificial intelligence. But [00:14:00] now we see headlines in every newspaper around the world about, what people are doing in the name of love for their chat bot. And relationships with other humans are falling by the wayside in favor of something that is always there to talk with you and always gonna agree with you.

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

David Day: It's like I. No, go ahead. Nevermind. I had a, no, I had a bad marriage joke in there. I'm not gonna say it. Oh, okay. Okay. So you can edit that out. 

Scott Allen: It reminds me of the film her. Have you seen that film? 

David Day: Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's been a few. It's been a while, but I remember it. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. And that didn't end well, did it? It didn't. 

Scott Allen: It didn't. I was, I hadn't had this insight before, but this is really interesting, Dave, you had exposed me to Principles u back to Dalio, which I think he and Adam Grant, or his organization and Adam Grant had put together this free, it's a [00:15:00] personality assessment thinking assessment.

But it's an interesting one and it's good and it's free. So Principles U I'll put a link in the show notes. How interesting is this, that. If the AI knew my results, is it adjusting? Is it tweaking on the fly? So again, some of this improvisation that you had mentioned, like it's gonna be really hard for if I am and literally it's changing its tone and its approach and its style to 70 different people.

In real time based on what it thinks I need as a human being. That's just, I'd never even thought of that but it makes perfect sense that could be accomplished, 

David Day: right? It can and I can point you to some articles. I don't have them at the ready that are coming mostly from the, what we used to be called the man machine interaction literature.

[00:16:00] People who are into robotics. That had been programming AI bots or AI agents in different leadership styles. To see which kinds of styles are more effective under certain kinds of conditions. So it's already out there. Yeah. Now the question is, at what point will that AI based leader be able to adapt styles to different situations?

Or capabilities to different situations which becomes even more human like. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

David Day: And not just be based on what's it's been trained on, but actually can create and improvise in ways that. Are very human we all know the Center for Creative Leadership. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. You know 

David Day: What makes for creative leadership?

If you think about leadership as a type of [00:17:00] performance, it's one that is not regiment, that it's not lock step. It's really one that is a adaptive to conditions and very improvisational. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

David Day: In nature.

AI in Creative Fields

David Day: And one of the things that's interesting is to look at recording artists, singer songwriters, people in the arts and entertainment industry and what they think about ai.

And one person who I know who has commented on this and commented on his blog is Nick Cave. Yeah. From Australia, Nick Cave in the Bad Seed. Somebody sent him a post on his Red Hands file, which is a great. Blog that he he hosts and said that he put into chat the person sending this comment I put into chat, GBT, write a song in the style of Nick Cave.

And then he gave the lyrics to this song. And what, nick Cave responded as I can give you my 2 cents. And the 2 cents version of that is this song [00:18:00] sucks. And the reason this song sucked is that it was very derivative of what Nick Cave sounded like. 

And in, in terms of his songs that he had already recorded.

But he made the point that, you know. AI can't feel a AI has no understanding of feelings other than what we tell them feelings are about. 

Scott Allen: Yeah, it

David Day: has. It hasn't run up against these kinds of insurmountable experiences that people write about and sing about because it has no experience. 

Scott Allen: Yep. 

David Day: So the notion of creativity is one that AI still struggles with, and.

Yes, it can create things that are derivatives of something that's already out there, but it is not good at creating new kinds of creative [00:19:00] performances that have not been experienced yet. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

AI in Healthcare and Performance Reviews

Scott Allen: And the conversation has me. I'm gonna give you a quick story. My wife was in the hospital last spring for a pretty routine surgery, but we just observed it in a very interesting way because we would ask for something as simple as Benadryl and the nurse would look at us and say, sure.

And then it'd be an hour and a half. Or no communication, no follow through. Forgot to give us a medication before we actually left. Just poor communication, poor follow through. Doctor walked in, said, your numbers are off the charts. I was like, no, they aren't. They're good. And she looked out at her paper and she said, oh, that was someone else.

Humans being in a healthcare. When the humanoid robot says. I'm gonna get you Benadryl. We can pretty readily ensure that will be placed as an order and that updates [00:20:00] will happen because we know that humans want updates. They won't get taken off task. Where could an AI leader be better than the human?

David Day: I think in terms of holding an impression of someone based on formal assessments. 

Scott Allen: Okay, 

David Day: so we were talking about personality assessments earlier and, if an AI agent has access to. All of your records, including things like assessments that you've conducted as well as your personnel files.

Oh gosh. Unlike that, I had never thought of. It knows my whole history and it remembers it. Ha. Unlike your le, unlike your human leader who confuses things, you with somebody else and mixes it all up. It's got a very clear, accurate memory. About and what happens when all of those, and all the things that you've done in this organization, Scott and previous, maybe,

Scott Allen: Maybe you your a your AI boss, [00:21:00] Carl didn't like 

David Day: this either seven years ago.

Yeah. And the, they could, upload your high school transcripts, for example. Remember that d you got in physics, this is, I think that's gonna, that's gonna be a career limiter in this organization. Oh, okay. So I interrupted you a little bit, but go keep going. I think one of the things is just, is back to this notion of expert power and so AI can't form impressions as we typically think about person impressions.

Scott Allen: Yeah.

David Day: This is how we remember people. We don't remember behavioral. Incidents. There's a literature and performance appraisal that says that we're really good humans are at forming impressions of other people. We're really bad at updating them and making, keeping them up to date. And one of the reasons we know that is that there's a lot of false alarms in the data for impression, consistent kinds of behaviors that never existed. Back in the day I was doing [00:22:00] some research on frame of reference performance appraisal training, and that's one of the things that my co-authors and I.

Discovered was this notion of it, it wasn't the behaviors that Raiders remembered, it was the impressions. And the impressions are faulty in that you will false alarm to things that are impression consistent, even if they've not existed. But AI will not do that. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. Yeah. What else? Where else could it, theoretically, could you see it being better?

David Day: I think in terms of giving feedback regularly 

Scott Allen: Yeah. The challenge, it's not going blow off the performance review, it's just gonna have 17 of them going at one time. 

David Day: Yeah. Could be. Yeah. Very efficient in that regard. But one of the things that people are notoriously bad at is giving feedback in real time.

Yeah. But AI could be doing that. The challenge is. AI tends to lean toward being syco offense [00:23:00] and telling you things that you want to hear, as opposed to things that maybe you should be hearing about what you're doing. So this whole notion of constructive criticism, I think potentially could. Something that's trained into ai, but right now it leans more towards telling you things about yourself that you wanna hear.

Yeah. As opposed to what you should hear. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

David Day: That's a great idea. I like where 

Scott Allen: you're going with this. Thanks. There you go. Thanks gt. Yeah. 

David Day: Yeah. I must be onto something. Yeah. So you take it to somebody, another human, then they're like, oh yeah, we did that. We did that 10 years ago. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. Yeah. 

The Future of AI in Leadership

Scott Allen: Forecasting planning, visioning, what do you see there?

What do you think? Human in the loop for the human in the loop, for the not too distant future. 

David Day: I think one of the thing, one of the things about. 20th Century [00:24:00] organization was a lot about strategy and that kind of strategic planning, which I think a lot of organizations are going away from simply because the world is too uncertain and chaotic to do that.

But what is replacing it? Scenario planning. What are possibilities and then trying to come up with accurate kinds of estimates of the probability of these different scenarios. So I think AI could be something very helpful and it probably is being used to in scenario planning in organizations because it can pull together possibilities that maybe the human mind hasn't yet thought of.

Which. Is an interesting way of thinking about creativity. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. 

David Day: Because it has access to so much data, it might be something that is better at identifying, what Taleb had called the black swan kind of events. 

That human minds seem [00:25:00] to have a blind spot for. 

Scott Allen: Yeah. Yeah.

David Day: We tend to think that the worst of what has happened was the worst thing that happened last, whereas what, the worst thing that could happen could maybe not have happened yet, but is right around the corner.

Scott Allen: Yeah. And I wonder, it's just an interesting thought experiment if it can, if people are falling in love with their ais.

And again, the AI could be designed to match my personality. I don't know, could it do some of this work better? Could it provide me real time feedback? But encouragement? Could it be, again, people might experience it in ways that. I'm working with organizations now where people don't hear from their supervisor for weeks or they don't have meetings every week, or they don't get feedback or they don't get any.

Thank you. That was awesome. [00:26:00] Hey, you improved today. Good job. It's almost like gamifying work, gamifying life in a weird way, but it, you could take the best of game gaming. Design, and we know that humans get addicted to that design. 

David Day: Yeah. I don't know. It's, there's a this will probably rock your world.

If you haven't heard of it, there's a whole subfield in AI called Love. No, I haven't. There's a journal called Levis. Okay. And it's all it started out as being all about this human. Robot kind of relationships that can evolve. More recently, it's taken a bit more of an erotic turn. Okay. Given that what's on the horizon is the kind of a version of her, the movie her that we were discussing earlier, where your partner, [00:27:00] romantic partner, even sexual partner, is something that is non-human.

Scott Allen: Yeah, 

David Day: so there are people who are studying this, and that was always the thing that I thought would be the deal breaker for AI leaders that they couldn't really, people wouldn't give themselves up and trust willingly with something that was non-human. And the data just shows that is not the case.

People do it, or at least some people do it. 

Scott Allen: Gosh. I was with a client recently and we were talking about the need. They were talking about a, an employee that they had and the person was being fired and was like super surprised. And I asked the question, I said, have you elevated the rhetoric over time?

And no. And again, we can probably program that in to. Elevate the rhetoric to, and so there's these ways potentially that, [00:28:00] but I had not heard of L or Love Otic. What's it called again? L-L-O-V-O-T-I Cs. But. Yeah. The humans. The humans giving in. And is there a scenario where you would've a human saying, you know what?

I like the AI better. I'm communicated with, I'm told, good job. I'm learning. It's teaching me things. That's just a messed up thought experiment to think about because if 70% of humans right now, again, these are Gallup numbers, McKinsey has some numbers but are not engaged at work. I don't know.

Fa. Okay. Let's end there. Fascinating future for listeners. We'll put some links in the show notes for you based on some of the things we've discussed today. So whether that's the algorithm firing our friend at Amazon, or the movie her, or a link to, if you're interested, love, we will put [00:29:00] those in the show notes.

Okay. 

Practical Wisdom for the Future

Scott Allen: What is the practical wisdom? I'm switching the final question up. This is from my friend Joel. What's the practical wisdom for. An individual listening to this right now, what does this conversation tell you, Dave, for an average listener right now? 

David Day: We were talking before we went on air about, what are the future of careers?

What are the future of jobs? And I think it's impossible to say what that's gonna look like with any definitive kind of clarity. But we do know that people are gonna have to learn how to use ai. Yeah. And not just to write their, course papers or to do PowerPoint presentations, but really to use it as a developmental partner.

And the advantages of that it's there with you as much as you want. It will people use it? I think some people will use it because back to this Levi issue, that people are forming relationships with these AI agents, with these AI [00:30:00] bots, and I think it has the potential to massively disrupt a lot of what happens in leader development starting with coaching.

Scott Allen: Yeah. And why 

David Day: do you need a, why do you need a human coach that you can only meet with a couple times a month at? And, it's bloody costly and, it's a bit of an inconvenience. And where you could have a coach who is a partner that's sitting on your shoulder all the time.

Yep. And you could ask for feedback. And again, it's back to this ocean can give good constructive feedback that has both the growth opportunities as well as the things that have gone well. Yeah. 

Scott Allen: And Carl Konner's working on some of that, which is cool. And just released an episode, I think last week, Dave, with him.

Please check that out, everyone. And. Yes. Tony Robbins love him or hate him. I don't this, I'm just talking about the tool right now has released a coach, basically recorded everything he ever did. [00:31:00] And that's an abounded system, an AI agent, and it can be your pocket coach. Tony Ray Dalio has 

David Day: released a bot of him that is in beta.

It's not of it, it it's. There's a wait list to, to get access to it, but it's something that's not only his voice, but it's a hologram of him that you can ask questions about. For example, institutional investing, financial, yeah. Credibility. And any of the, and it's, you have access to Ray Dalio, you have access to Tony Robbins, you have access to, other kinds of experts that you normally wouldn't have access to in real time or real live kinds of sessions.

We need to make the Dave bot. 

Scott Allen: Let's do it. No, but what you said is really, I have this image. There's the film, hidden Figures, and of course that's the film that took place at nasa. And you had these primarily, there were women, at least [00:32:00] in the film who were computers, and they sat around and they computed every day.

And then of course, this IBM mainframe showed up. And one of the women wisely knew that she was gonna have to state skate where the puck was going, so to speak, the Wayne Gretzky quote, and learn that system to stay relevant. Yeah. So I think what you're saying is completely accurate. What are those tools that are gonna be used in marketing?

What are those tools that are gonna be used in HR that fundamentally, if we don't have command over, we're gonna be. It's like using a T square. If you're an architect, it's just not gonna have any relevance any longer. So I think it's wise advice. 

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Scott Allen: Dave, as always, thank you so much for the work you do. I appreciate your pleasure.

This to explore today a little bit for listeners, sorry if we agitated you, but hope you, hopefully you do a little exploration of your own take care or as I would say,

David Day: Better to provoke someone than to bore them. So let's hope it's bore on the provoking. Provocative side of things and on [00:33:00] the boredom side of things.

Scott Allen: Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. Okay. Take care. Be well.