Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott J. Allen, Ph.D.

The Wake I Leave with Dr. Joel Rothaizer

• Scott J. Allen • Season 1 • Episode 308

Share episode

Send us a text

Dr. Joel Rothaizer is a psychologist, executive coach, organizational consultant and leadership development specialist. He’s Board Certified in Organizational & Business Consulting Psychology, and a Master Certified Coach through the International Coaching Federation. His book on leadership, called Clear Impact, has been strongly endorsed by Ken Wilber. The head of Integral Zen calls it the most integral book on leadership he’s ever read.

A  Few Quotes From This Episode

  • “You leave a wake in every interaction. The real question is not just what kind of wake you left, but whether you even noticed.”
  • “Thirty seconds before every conversation, set a task goal and a people goal. That one habit can catapult your leadership capacity.”
  • “Performance isn’t about you or me — it’s about how we’re doing together. Start a performance conversation with that and everything shifts.”

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

  • The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. 

About  Scott J. Allen

My Approach to Hosting

  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and explorati


♻️ Please share with others and follow/subscribe to the podcast!
⭐️ Please leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or your platform of choice.
➡️ Follow me on LinkedIn for more on leadership, communication, and tech.
📜 Subscribe to my weekly newsletter featuring four hand-picked articles.
🌎 You can learn more about my work on my Website.



Scott Allen:

Okay, everybody, welcome to Practical Wisdom for Leaders. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world. Today, I'm looking forward to this conversation. I have Joel Rothaizer, and he is a psychologist, executive coach, organizational consultant, and leadership development specialist. He's board certified in organizational and business consulting psychology and a master certified coach through the International Coach Federation. His book on leadership, called Clear Impact: Building Leadership Capacity, has been strongly endorsed by Ken Wilbur. The head of Integral Zen calls it the most integral book on leadership he's ever read. Sir, thank you so much for being with me on the podcast today. I very, very much appreciate your time. What's not in your bio that people should know about you?

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

Mostly a marathon runner when my knees let me. Also a deep spiritual practice. I always I always feel like whenever I hand somebody my Vita that the underside is the spiritual practice part that you don't write about, but it informs everything that I do. Oh, wonderful.

Scott Allen:

So marathoning and spirit and do they ever kind of coalesce the marathon running and the spiritual practice?

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

Um, toward the end of the marathon, I don't think I'm meditating. I think I'm just dissociating.

Scott Allen:

So I don't think so. Joel, I ran one half marathon, and it was the most humbling experience because I'm I'm I see the finish line. And as I'm kind of coming towards the finish line, the eight-year-old runs past me. Yes. The 89-year-old dogs past me. I get it. Yeah.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

Yeah. I mean, at my best, I'm a slug with endurance. I can get to the end, but I'm in the back of the pack, back 10%.

Scott Allen:

Uh but you're doing it. You're doing it. That's awesome. I don't have a great friend who just ran Berlin. And uh, so it was fun to hear about his experiences. So well, I I'm excited for the conversation. Uh obviously, you have the book, and we can talk about that a little bit. But you know, you had reached out and said, Hey, I'd like to I think I think I have some things to contribute. I think you'd been listening to some of these conversations with Jonathan Reims. For listeners, if you have not listened to those episodes, it may be good to do so. Episodes 300 through 302, uh three-part series with Jonathan, kind of us exploring and thinking through leader development. And so uh I mean, I'd love to kind of see where you want to start the conversation.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

Well, I didn't even know the podcast existed until a little while ago. And I've been devouring it, I've really been enjoying it. And in a lot of the episodes, I want to raise my hand and go, I know how to do that, or I have something to add, or yeah, you talked about polarities, but I have something that's a nuance. So um, and I think more recently you were talking about what are the really practical ways to make this stuff real? Not to just talk about it, not the academic stuff, but the in the trenches with leaders who are seriously busy, how do you help them build capacity?

Scott Allen:

Yes, I mean, that that's really where a lot of my interest is right now. I mean, Joel, I I've had five years of conversations, primarily with academics, PhDs. Of course, there's been all kinds of guests, but but as I have left full-time academia and I'm with practitioners more and more often, I really am interested. How do we be helpful now, in the moment, and how do we better prepare folks to do this work? And so, yes, that has been very much on my mind. And so I look forward to the conversation.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

Yeah, and I feel like my sweet spot has been kind of the integral, vertical, in the trenches stuff. Yeah. And how do you everything that I do is intrically informed or developmentally modeled informed, I guess. Um, but how do you do things that are short and seem simple but are surprisingly powerful in building capacity? Love it, love it. And again, capacity defined as higher levels of complexity in thinking and acting. So let me tell you about last Friday. Okay. So I went to one of those CEO groups, you know, with like-minded, you know, peers, and I had an hour and a half to try to create some value. And I put up a developmental chart, and I very briefly described vertical development as more focusing on how you think instead of just what you think about. Um I brought in um heroic leadership as I was kind of very briefly, I did a very brief run through the scale using the Bill Joyner versions of the different stages.

Scott Allen:

Okay.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

And then I started with a tool called the Wake I Leave or The Wake You Leave. And and I what I said was particularly when you're a senior leader, certainly this group of CEOs, you leave a huge wake in every interaction. Wow. And there's two questions that are really relevant. The first question is what kind of a wake did you leave? Did you leave the person a little more enthusiast, inspired, feeling safe, trusting, clear? Or did you leave them more anxious, confused, wanting to find another job? But the second question, which is more relevant, is did you even notice?

Scott Allen:

Yes.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

And we'll talk about the City of Edmonton's leadership program later. But this was the first activity we gave people for reflection is can you even notice the impact you're having on people? Because to do that, you have to wake up. Um and all the practices that I have are little ways to be very intentional and mindful throughout the day that don't take time, they take intention. Um and so I talked in the group a bit about what kind of wake would you like to leave on people, and then had people talk about what's one thing you could do to make that happen more likely, to leave a positive wake. I also mentioned I work with a lot of military leaders. That's one of my little niche areas. And I was working with a general two or three years ago, and I introduced the term incoming human. Um, and they love that, the idea that every time the phone rings, every time there's a video call, every time somebody walks in my door, there's an incoming human. Incoming. Yeah, exactly. You know, it's like you know, because I watched MASH when I was a kid, so that's you know, yeah, and I'm about to have an impact on that person. So this isn't just a business conversation. This isn't just an update on a project. I'm about to impact a human being. Yeah. And they love that and they pass that down to their colonels, to the majors, um, as a very practical way to be present in the moment and just understand the impact you have. Yeah. And you know, as you know, because I've heard people talk about it on your wonderful podcast, perspective taking, but particularly compassionate perspective taking, is the leadership superpower, at least one of the few. And so if I'm actually thinking about you and how I'm impacting you, I have to be present, I have to be off-task mode and also into human mode. And then I was talking in the group about how do you even notice the impact you had? Because you really have to be awake to watch facial expressions, body language. Um so that was the first piece, and people really like that. Again, very practical. Love it. Um, the second one is a variation on that, but it's a little more specific. And this is the one where if I can only introduce one practice to leaders right now out of all the stuff that I've developed, it would be this one. Okay. Um, drum roll. I well, I loved the first one, so I'm on edge, yes. It's 30 seconds before every interaction. Ask yourself two questions. The first is what's my goal for this interaction? But I want there to be two parts to that: a task goal and a people goal. Okay. So the task goal might be I want an update on that project. I want to know if you call that person. The people goal, and again, this relates to the first one, is very specific. What do you want the experience of that person to be at the end of your interaction? Whether it's a two-minute interaction or an hour interaction, when it's over, what do you want their experience to be? And then what's one thing you could do that you wouldn't do automatically to make that more likely? Yeah. So that's the 30 seconds before. Then you have the interaction. Hopefully, you're mindful of that one thing you wanted to do differently. And then the really important thing at the end of the meeting is don't grab your phone and look at what messages you missed. Take 30 more seconds and ask yourself, what did I intend? What did I do? What did I notice? And if you actually had the impact you wanted to have, celebrate that for a moment. If you didn't have that impact, it's a learning moment. Huh. I wanted to have this impact. I wonder why I didn't. So then it's an opportunity to reflect. And what I know is that every leader I have that I work with who has done this practice regularly finds it it catapults their leadership ability. Wow. Because you have to be present to do it. You have to be thinking about your impact on people, you have to be practicing doing something different. And the something different could be as simple as I'm going to make eye contact. Yeah. I'm going to call you by your name. I'm going to ask one curious question that I wouldn't normally ask. Or even when you're talking about a problem, I'm not going to see you as a problem to be solved. I'm going to ask a bit more about your perspective on it. Something little.

Scott Allen:

Yep.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

And so it's uh goal plan action reflection. And I call it an integrative cycle of learning. Goal plan action reflection. Yeah. Okay. Um and like I said, every leader I've worked with who does this has found it really powerful. Um, I was working with one leader, an engineering guy, and he said, you know, I can't not do that. Now that it's my habit, even if I forget to do it, I do it in my head right at the beginning. And so then, and I chose my words really deliberately. I said, So now when are you going to demand that all of your direct reports do the same practice? Wow. And he said, demand. And I said, Hell yeah. Um you know, you demand that they increase their engineering ability, you demand that they increase their certification, they're all leaders. Why wouldn't why why can't you demand that they get better as leaders?

Scott Allen:

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

So again, it's a cascading effect.

Scott Allen:

Yep. Well, and if we have several layers of the organization who even if we have several layers of the organization who even 60% of the time, 50% of the time are engaging in that work, right? We are to your point, to use your word, catapulting forward. The learning is captured. And like you, what I see a lot of is people pinging from one thing to another, surviving the day. And to your point, there's there's very little intentionality going in. There's very little presence in the moment of how, and I think Jonathan described that, you know, your your inner state is going to shine, it's gonna show, whatever that is. And you know, even you know, a physiological side of and just kind of centering yourself a little bit, yeah, can be uh an intervention, another little simple, and and these are the things, Joel, that I'm interested in. I mean, these almost little micro interventions that can align with the flow of the day, can align with the work, quote unquote. But if we can help individuals, and I loved that phrasing, incoming human, you know, okay, there's a I know what I need to do to get myself present for what the work that's about to happen right now, right?

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

Right.

Scott Allen:

That's beautiful.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

And so yeah, and so in the room, I had people pair up and think about some upcoming conversation they were gonna have that they wanted to be more mindful about. And I intentionally said it could be personal, could be business, any area. And someone actually brought up what you just said. Um, what happens if I'm too frazzled? And and I use Dan Siegel's window of tolerance. I think it's a nice simple term. And I think it was Daniel Goldman who said a leader's first job is to manage their own nervous system.

Scott Allen:

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

Oh wow. And so I I brought that in, and people really like that as an add-on. I hadn't planned on doing that piece, but it we just went into that. And so people were talking about the impact they wanted to have on people and what they could do. And the dialogue, and this almost always happens, went to family as well.

Scott Allen:

Oh, yes. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And that's over and over and over, I'm seeing that, especially if I introduce the concept of because that quote that I'll always use in my podcast episodes, you know, who you are is how you lead. I think you could say who you are is how you parent. Who are you? And if others are in your care, who you are matters a lot.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

Yeah. I I've had the same kind of tagline for a long time of better humans make better leaders. Yeah. Yeah. So there's an add-on to this practice, which is on your way home, if you're actually driving home, or if you're going upstairs from your basement office, but if you're driving, stop half a block from your house, pull over, and ask yourself, what impact do I want to have on my family when I walk in the door? Wow. And what might make that more likely? Because a lot of them realize they walk in and they just walk right past people. Or, you know, I was working with a general who would be gone for a month, and then he'd walk in, and the first thing he'd say was, Who left their shoes in the hallway?

Scott Allen:

That can happen to me. I mean, Joel, one really interesting thing is that, and my wife and I have talked about this on our walks. You know, I I think I said to you before we started recording, I got home last night at midnight, slept. My wife and I got up at 5:30, we walked. And um, you know, I I've been leaving and re-entering more. And sometimes what I show up with when I re-enter isn't the tone I want to set, right? Right. It might be just some silly, dumb comment like that. That in the grand scheme of things, who the hell cares? That's not the first thing people should hear. But it's it at times it has been the first thing that comes out of my mouth. And so, right? I mean, it's I so I love that, you know, just that intention of okay, how do I want to show up and getting myself prepared? Otherwise, that other thing, whatever that is, just takes over. Does that make sense?

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

Of course, totally. And you know, that that new entry in the house could could be as simple as I love you, I'm happy to see you, I've got to decompress for a few minutes. Yeah. But that's fine.

Scott Allen:

Yeah. But there's, you know, you're not going to be able to do out of date with you know, who what dumbass left their shoes there? That's not the that's not the tone.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

And so then the conversation got into because I I tended to snap my fingers, like, wake up. Wake up. And the person was saying, Well, how do you remember to do that? And so we talked in there for a while about I think the minimum structure for actual change is setting intentions every morning about who we want to be and how we want to impact other humans. Yeah. And at the end of the day, taking a few minutes and asking, How did I do from a very self-compassionate place? Yeah. Not the inner critic, but um, from self-compassion. That's the minimum because change is really not sexy. It's not going to a weekend workshop with loud music and strobe lights. It's but the reality is, man, it's not sexy. It's little moments of action and reflection over and over again. And that's how our brains change, and that's how we get new patterns. Yep. So the question is, how do I remember to do that? And so my minimum thing is one is setting intentions in the morning. And I have a great hack for that. This worked for me for years, which is I'm not allowed to look at my phone until I set intentions. Nice. And I'm adamant about that. So before because as soon as you open your phone, you're screwed.

Scott Allen:

You're you're hijacked, yeah.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

Yeah. Whether it's the news feed or your emails or your texts. But what if the first thing you did was, who do I really want to be today? And at the end of the day, when I look back, what would I love to say about who I was? And how did I impact all the humans around me? Yeah.

Scott Allen:

Well, and it's it's these micro interventions. Sometimes it's a quote, Jonathan's quote of, you know, leaders create the weather, or some of the quotes that you've that you, the leader's first job is to manage their nervous system. I mean, you know, that maybe that's not the the sexiest of quotes, but it's a powerful, it's a powerful visual. But it's these these micro interventions and these, I don't know that they're mantras, but they're they're quotes or there's ways of thinking that we can hold on to that leaders create the weather, parents create the weather. When I say that in in large groups, you know, there I was with a group yesterday, they're like, You're the weather guy. You know, Jonathan said that, but you know, whatever. You can call me the weather guy. I'm glad you remember it, right? Because it's critical. But there's those sticky things, whether it's a saying or a mantra or a quote or a or a habit, micro habit, that that have the ability to transform. I think it's when we make, you know, there's this great uh fellow Canadian of yours, Drew Dudley. I don't know if you've ever seen his TED Talk. Um it's a beautiful TED talk. It's like seven and a half minutes. It's Drew Dudley. I'll put a link in the show notes. But he talks about how we've made made leadership this big, huge thing about changing the world. Right. And and he thinks that you know that's that's a that's a disservice. And so it's it's about our humanity with one another. We can control that and we can and we can exist in that way, and we can make a difference in our small way, and it's a beautiful TED talk. Um, but yes, I mean, I'm so happy that we're having this conversation because it's these and other little micro interventions that can quickly shift perspective. Does that make sense?

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

Oh, totally. In fact, I'll give you the third one that I did because that was again on Friday.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, more. Look at this, man.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

What do you just well? You know, the the weird thing is, you know, I've been here in Edmonton, Alberta. It's not exactly the, you know, I'm not sitting in Boulder, Colorado, or San Francisco, or Boston or New York. And so, you know, I've just done what I do, and then now and then I go, oh, other people are doing the same stuff. But but this is what this is what I live and breathe. So the third one, third one I really like to, it's one of my favorite three or four that I do. I start out saying, wouldn't you agree that whoever you report to, and even if you're a CEO, you still report to a board. Yeah. Yeah. People think CEOs have all the freedom, they don't. No. I say, wouldn't you agree that the person you report to is co-responsible for how you show up? That whether you are doing well in your work has a lot to do with them. And they say, yeah. And I say, what are some ways? Um, coaching they provide or not, scheduling meetings, do they show up or not? Um, protecting me from too much work or not, having my back if I do the right thing, but someone higher up is angry about it. And so then I say, So wouldn't you then agree that you that you are co-responsible for the perform with the performance of all of your direct reports? Yeah. And they a little bit more grudgingly say, Yeah. And then I and then I say, but your way of having performance dialogues and performance management ignores that fact. You sit with somebody like you're giving them a report card. How are you doing? I'm talking about your performance. But you have as much to do with their performance as they do, maybe more. Yes. And so this is the subtle tweak that changes everything. What if the first thing you say is, this is about how we are doing together. Yeah. Yeah. This is about how we as a dyad, me as your manager, me as your leader, that's what we're talking about today. And I ask people in the room, how would that change the entire dialogue?

Scott Allen:

Oh, Joel, you're blowing my mind right now, sir. I mean, I I love it. That but but that that is exactly what I'm talking about. That subtle shift changes so much.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

So much. Yes. Exactly. That one sentence, that different start, changes everything. And where the leader says, I recognize I'm co-responsible for how you're doing.

Scott Allen:

Well, yes. I mean, you can go to like, you know, family systems theory, uh, where yeah, it's very convenient to pick on Jimmy as the problem, but you know, the system's the system.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

Oh, I know.

Scott Allen:

Usually some other things going on, you know, that's facilitating some of Jimmy's behavior, right? You know?

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

Oh, yeah. This is an aside, but I don't remember who it was because I I also do clinical psychology. I have the whole range. And there was this amazing intervention somebody did around parents whose kids are self-harming in some ways, cutting. And he sits with the parents and he says, When Jimmy or Sally are up in their room thinking about hurting themselves, why aren't they talking to you?

Scott Allen:

Yes.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

And, you know, what an amazing, like confrontive, powerful question.

Scott Allen:

And and in a potentially, you know, unhealthy way, they are communicating with you. Yes, communicates. There's a message there. That yes, that behavior, right? I mean, yeah, not that all parents are at fault or causing, but but there's it's at least in a critical question to reflect upon, right? My gosh.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

So I'll give you one more. I didn't do this one on Friday, but Friday was great because people love that. I gave them time to practice, to pair up, to reflect on things. So on this one, I had them think about a direct report who's doing really well and share with a partner how am I co-responsible for them doing so well. And then to also think about somebody who wasn't doing so well and how might they be co-responsible for that. And then somebody asked, well, how about holding them accountable? And I said, you can still hold them accountable. You can still fire somebody. Oh, yeah. But but you at least are having this conversation. You know, and in fact, we were talking about that goal, plan, action, reflection. And I said, you could have a goal for a talk to be, I want the person to understand that their job is in danger, that there is a serious gap in their performance. And I want them to know that I have their back. I want them to be successful. Yeah. Yeah. And that would be a great, you know, 30 seconds before. I want to make sure they're really clear how serious this is, and I want to let them know I'm there for them. I want them to succeed. If they don't, they don't. But if you also say, and let's talk about how we're doing together, is there anything I could be doing to make it easier for you to succeed? Is there anything in the organization that's getting in the way of you succeeding? It's it's again a different dialogue.

Scott Allen:

Well, you know, you you've made me you've made me think in some ways. Um so we can go down this road for for a little bit. We don't have to if you're not interested in this pathway. But you know, just something I've been observing and thinking about recently, I did not grow up in a particularly uh faith-filled home. So so religion was not a significant part of my my life. I was confirmed Lutheran, but really my parents didn't attend, and it just wasn't. But one one observation I have is that as large factions of society have as the size of the church has decreased, at least in the United States, membership participation has people's time on Sunday mornings to pause, reflect, hear a message, be in community. I I think that has an impact on us as humans. I think it has a very real impact. And um, so when you had talked about your spiritual practice, I mean, I think that grounding, whatever that practice is, that grounding, that pausing, whether that was through prayer or stating intentions, I think it's fundamental to us as human beings. And I think prayer is a form of that. I think meditation can be a form of that. But as scrolling, and to your point, the advice takes over first thing in the morning, we just get sucked in and we're just on autopilot all day long. And so I love how some of these practices here that you've talked about, even in 30 seconds, are recent us into a place where we can be uh our best self in that moment. Uh you we have the best potential to be our best self in that moment.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

Right. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I agree. And it reminded me one of the when you were one of the times we had Jennifer Garvey Berger and you were talking about, well, she was talking about connection. Yeah. That was one of those times I wanted to raise my hand. Yeah. Uh something we came to over time. Um, we probably won't get to it all today, but when we were doing the City of Edmonton's leadership program for the top 800 leaders, we got to have basically 30 cohorts of 30 people each. Wow. And so got the opportunity to really hone curriculum, what actually works. So we probably won't get to polarities today, but I first did polarities the way it said in the book, and it did not work. And then I found ways that did. So but one of the things that happened was at first we'd had people gather at tables. We we formed people in cohorts of four to five. They needed to not know each other to be from totally different areas. So you have, you know, a cop and someone who mows the lawn in the parks, and somebody who's in finance, and they're all because we wanted them to get that leadership is leadership, even though they're working in very different cultures and contexts. The the essence of leadership is one thing. And we'd have them start out in the morning and say, just talk about what you've been applying from what we talked about last time. And then we'd call on tables. And at first we we had that be a short period of time. It ended up being the first two to three hours. Oh wow. And the reason was that first you get into people don't believe you if you're the guy in front of the room or the woman in front of the room talking about stuff. But if they hear a peer tried something and it worked. There was an early adopter, they go, Wow, I find this really interesting. And because they were talking about what challenges they were facing at work, first, like this goes back to what you were saying. How often do leaders have an an open, vulnerable place to just go, I don't know how to work with somebody, or I'm struggling with my boss, or because there was a huge kind of cone of safety in the room. What we learned was that we would use that to build in curriculum real time and to even add new pieces of curriculum with talking about what people were actually struggling with in the moment. So it was just in time kind of stuff. It was real. It wasn't theoretical. We never did case studies. And so somebody would be bringing up an issue, and my partner might go up to a level of development chart and say, how would a conformer look at this? How would an expert see this? How would an achiever? How would a catalyst? I might go up and do a polarity map, and then we might weave in whatever the new curriculum was of the day. But it became this wonderful, organic way people could share with each other and hear each other's struggles and challenges. And again, to me, case studies don't make sense because here you have real stuff going on. Yes. Yeah, you have real case studies. Like yeah, yeah.

Scott Allen:

Where people have some skin in the game, literally their skin.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

Totally.

Scott Allen:

Well, but I love I love the fact. And so in real time, you're adjusting, you're you're connecting with your partner and saying, okay, what do you think? Where and I love that because it's a little more like jazz. There's some improv there. There's meeting the room where they are. And I'm not gonna let's, you know, I was with a group on Saturday, and I looked at my my client partner and I said, I can march through the PowerPoint slides right now if you'd like me to, or we can go down this path, which it seems is where their energy is. And and finish out with some some really meaningful conversations based on where they are. And thankfully, my partner was like, Yes, please do that. You know, they're they're hungry for that conversation. So yeah, I love it.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

And fortunately, we were both like that. We were just wanting to riff off each other. And whenever I have an agenda, I always start out saying, I'm not gonna follow this. And I don't know when I'm gonna go off script, but there's no way I'm gonna do this, and the order is presented right now. This is to make you feel better that I'm prepared. Well, it's because we're in the realm of complexity. You can't, you know. I mean, if you're going through things, you can't be giving people what they need. Yeah. And so I even told them on Friday, again, I only had an hour and a half. I said, I'm planning three tools. I'm sure I'll be bringing other tools in I didn't think about based on the dialogue because I'm not a talking head. I'm a practical, in the trenches, leadership guy. Let's talk for real. Yeah, love it. Yeah, I'll give you one more if we have time. This was this was actually the stickiest one that I came up with. We'd show a picture of a pond on a beautiful day. There's some koi in there swimming around. And then I'd say, if some of those fish started swimming erratically or turned upside down, as in dying, would you blame the fish? And people laugh and go, no, you know, toxic runoff, nutrients, whatever. And then I'd say, okay, if you then went to the fish store and you bought the best new fish and put them in the same pond, what would happen? Well, they would die off too. And then my punchline is that's not how you manage a performance. When somebody is struggling in their role, your first question isn't what is it in the pond that's getting in their way? You first point to the person and go, bad fish. Yeah. Yeah. And so the term that I coined was pond thinking. Where pond thinking is a conceptual habit of looking for root cause of organizational behavior, not within the person, but within the culture itself. Yeah, the system. You know, clarity of roles, goals, everything.

Scott Allen:

Yeah. And that's where that's so I mean, I use the phrase self-serving bias, where you know, it's easy to it's easy for me to see the foibles in those three people or in the team, but I struggle to see what I own in that dysfunction or what I own in, you know. Oh, I'm always canceling meetings, I'm always a little disorganized. I'm never really all that clear. I'm not specific. I didn't set SMART goals, whatever it is, it's hard for me to see that. Right. I'm blind to it much of the day, but it's easy for me to see what they're not doing and difficult for me to see how I'm contributing to that dysfunction. It's fascinating.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

Yeah. Well, and then that ended up being, like I said, the stickiest thing that I came up with. Because it became language that lasted for years after we left, where somebody would say, Yeah, my direct report is just screwing up. And someone else would say, Sounds like you're bad fishing. Um, can we try pond thinking?

Scott Allen:

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's like that, right? I mean, catchy. Yeah, it's it is, it's catchy, and I love the story to set it up and the metaphor that makes perfect sense. And then, you know, I I I had released a pod uh a post on LinkedIn today, which kind of the premise of it was, you know, eight types of difficult employees. But then I switch it around a little bit and just assert, you know, these individuals are an opportunity for you to practice. And, you know, they're they're holding up a mirror, potentially. And what can you do to adjust your style, or what can you do to support them and enter into the the kind dialogue or the the the conversation to coach? And um again, all of these are so fascinating. And I love the fact, I mean, I just I love these interventions, Joel. I really, really do. I mean This is another thing that's rumbling around in my head, and you've talked about this, and it sounds like you're doing this. I had a guest on a while back, and and he said something to the effect of if I'm doing all the work, I'm doing it wrong. And I think at times in my leader development programming, I find myself being on and they're not doing the work. What I love about these interventions, not only are they they are what's the word I'm looking for? I'm not looking for simplistic. It's not simple, they aren't simplistic, they are they're complex. They're they're a light lift, so to speak, in some ways.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

But there's but but in a way, in a way, it's a Trojan horse.

Scott Allen:

Yes, yes, and but it's a it's a gold mine, right? Yeah for conversation. If if on those couple questions people are going for an hour, yes, right? They're hungry for that dialogue, they're they're hungry for that community, they're hungry for those thinking partners. I've noticed that, especially maybe it's just me, but since the pandemic, putting people in that community, they really enjoy that that time to connect because I think they don't have it very often. But you know, these interventions are powerful, they're like a win-win-win-win-win. They're powerful, they're a light lift from a facilitation standpoint. They meet the participants where they are. I mean, it's just I love how you're thinking. Thanks. I really do. I appreciate that. Okay. Yes, we if if you're open to it, we have another date to talk polarities. Definitely. Would love to. Okay, okay.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

By the way, I'll I'll say one last thing, just based on what you just said. Yeah. We did an activity. Some consultant had a two by two grid, low and high engagement, and low and high critical thinking. And he had names for each one of the people. So, like um, low critical thinking, high engagement was a brown noser. Okay. Um, other people were, you know, like disengaged. And first we made those verbs because they said this is not a quality of a human, this is what somebody is doing. Yeah. But then the activity we had was what could happen in an organization that would lead somebody to act this way. Yeah. Yeah. And so that was leaders around the table, all you know, how do we disengage people? How do we put people in positions where they brown those? Because you know. So it's again getting leaders thinking about that stuff.

Scott Allen:

Yep. And and and you know, thinking about the system and the pond and what's in the pond that might be making people sick, quote unquote.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

Totally. Totally.

Scott Allen:

Because if you if you if you drink from tainted water, you're gonna get sick. Well, I I always close out by asking guests what they've been listening to, reading, streaming, what's caught your attention in recent times. It could have to do with what we've just discussed, it might have nothing to do with what we've just discussed, but what might uh listeners be interested in, sir?

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

Sure. Jonathan may have mentioned Daniel Brown, Dan Brown, not the guy that wrote Celestine Prophecy, but Daniel P. Brown. Okay. Who was he an amazing mentor for me. Oath he was this I don't know how he did all this in one lifetime, but he was a very distinguished psychologist. He uh was at Harvard Med School, he was a world expert in trauma and attachment. Um he was involved in some of the highest profile cases around child sexual abuse. And he probably knew more about the subtle stages of meditation than anybody alive. So he was a very profound Eastern practical practitioner. And he used he died two years ago, but in I think in Newton in the Boston area, Wednesday night, he used to have these improv nights when people would show up and they could just ask him anything. And those were pretty recently transcribed into three volumes. And what's amazing about listening to Dan is someone will say, How do you build compassion or how do you deal with grief? And he'll say, Well, let me give you the Western version, and now let me give you the Eastern version, and now let me kind of weave those together. And he was this masterful depth of wisdom. And so um the series is called Cloudless Mind. There are three volumes of it, it's on Amazon and everywhere else, and he's just a treasure.

Scott Allen:

Wow, okay. I'm intrigued. That's very, very cool. I love that. Well, Joel, thank you so much for your time to get today. I really, really appreciate it. I know that listeners are gonna get so much from that conversation, and and again, I I look forward to another conversation, diving in a little bit to polarities and what you've learned in that space. Another topic I really find fascinating. So uh, you know what? I will be in touch.

Dr. Joel Rothaizer:

I I look forward to it. Okay, be well.

Scott Allen:

Thank you.