Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott J. Allen, Ph.D.

Listening Without Agenda with Andrew McMasters

• Scott J. Allen • Season 1 • Episode 307

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Andrew McMasters is an actor, director, and consultant who helps leaders and teams strengthen communication, collaboration, and presence through the power of performance. As the author of Listening Without Agenda, he blends acting techniques with business strategy to create authentic, engaging, and effective leadership.

A  Few Quotes From This Episode

  • “Actors learn to use their bodies to communicate. Leaders forget that their body is one of the tools they use.”
  • “Make your scene partner look good. That is what creates true collaboration.”
  • “In improv, you cannot hold on to your agenda. You have to build something together.”

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

  • The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. 

About  Scott J. Allen

My Approach to Hosting

  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.



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SCOTT ALLEN:

Okay, everybody. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world. Practical wisdom for leaders. Today I am very, very excited about my guest. I'm very, very excited for this conversation we're about to have because it's a critical conversation. It's an important conversation. And I think it's a conversation that we don't elevate often enough. And so who knows where we're going to go? I'm kind of excited to see myself, but I have Andrew McMasters, and he is an actor, director, and consultant who helps leaders and teams strengthen communication, collaboration, and presence through the power of performance. As the author of Listening Without Agenda, he blends acting techniques with business strategy to create authentic, engaging, and effective leadership. Andrew, thank you so much. I know you're zooming in from the Pacific Northwest in the United States, which is one of my favorite places in the world. What do listeners need to know about you that maybe wasn't in your bio just now?

Andrew McMasters:

Yeah, I think the biggest thing is my background as an actor. A lot of times I'm walking in to work with organizations and work with groups, and they're like, oh, tell us what your background is. I'm like, well, I have a master's degree in drama and I have an undergraduate degree in theater. And then they sort of look at me and go, oh, what does that mean? And yet at the same time, I also realize that as an actor, you know, you sort of have to be in control of your own artistic and financial destiny. So I am an entrepreneur. I started my own business. Yeah. Uh my joke I say all the time is I started my company in 1992 when I was four years old. So uh because I don't want to tell you how old I am. Uh and I ran that for 25 years. I stepped off in 2017. So my experience is being a professional actor, classically trained actor, and then also running my own million-dollar-a-year nonprofit organization. So it's both of those things. So I kind of have that leadership piece as well as the actual training of being an actor. Yeah. And those are the things I think where it became the practical application of how do these things that I've learned as an actor come into play when I'm actually in charge of a staff of, you know, five, 10 people that are here and then 30 volunteers, and then 45 actors, and then a board of directors. Yes. How are you making all of that work? And that I think is kind of where that practical application came into play.

SCOTT ALLEN:

Oh, well, okay. So I have like three or four things here. Good. Love it. So, and and I'm I'm taking the conversation maybe in a direction we weren't necessarily going to go in, but I I just absolutely love that. Yesterday I was with so here, I was telling you that there's a lot of cool things about Cleveland, Ohio that a lot of people know. So, second largest theater district outside of New York City is Cleveland, Ohio. So I was with I was with uh the leadership team at Playhouse Square yesterday, and that was fun, fascinating, just incredible. So my daughters are going to see and my wife Hel's Kitchen tomorrow. And two, three nights ago, I saw Maybe Happy Ending on Broadway. I my daughters and my wife saw it last summer and they loved it. So I have a client in New York City. So I was like, you know, I'm getting in at five and I'm just gonna go straight to the theater. And oh my gosh, just absolutely incredible. So theater, the arts, I mean, you know, it's what makes us human. It really is.

Andrew McMasters:

Well, and those are the things that I think one of the things I think that is a downfall in theater training is they don't teach you that those same skills translate everywhere. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And you watch actors and you're like, I feel what you're saying. And then meanwhile, you watch leaders and they're like, I am so excited to be here. This is just gonna be a wonderful time. And you know, and so it's like, wait a minute, you've forgotten your intention. You forgot to bring the expressiveness, you forgot that your body is also one of the tools that you use to have people understand what you're saying. Yes, all of those things that I think actors learn inherently that I think really translate straight over to what do leaders need? What do people need when they're communicating?

SCOTT ALLEN:

Oh my gosh. Yes, 100%. I can't, I I sit through two or three. We're really, really excited to convene all of you today. This is just a fascinating group of people that's doing wonderful things in the world. And you know, the person, oh geez. Well, okay, so let's jump into the book.

Andrew McMasters:

Yeah.

SCOTT ALLEN:

Um, what are a couple things you would want listeners to know about the book? And take us on whatever journey you'd like to. I'd I'm just looking forward to learning more.

Andrew McMasters:

Yeah, to be honest, this kind of came about. My theater was an improv comedy theater. So we did improv theater and we also did long form pieces. In fact, before I left, we had done an uh hour and a half long play that was an improvised Downton Abbey and an improvised Jane Austen play. Wow. So we're creating these on the spot. And in order to do that, people on stage have to be able to really focus on what did I just hear? Wow. And then how do I use what I heard in order to build that story? Yes. So the tool we talk about all the time is the tool of yes and how am I hearing what I'm getting from the other actors? How am I accepting it? How am I building it so that we can create this story collaboratively? Yes. And that's where my listening skills really started to expand. And I started thinking about it in the sense of how am I listening to what I'm hearing? How am I actually using that? As opposed to I heard it, great, but I still have an agenda and I want to cover that thing I want to cover. Yes. And in improv, you can't do that. I have to let go of that agenda, and I have to really collaborate with people. Yes. So that is where this sort of piece came in. And then I started playing with that. Meanwhile, I've been working in corporations, Amazon, Microsoft, um, you know, Apple Computer for years. And realizing that that was the skill that they needed, people would be really great on their script. And the minute someone asks them a question, they don't know how to take that and then go off script and build on it and create something beautiful and wonderful. Yes. So that yes and idea is really kind of the basis of where I started with the book. And then it kind of continued from there into all the studies, the pieces, the things that can't get in your way, all of the other problems, which I think are just brilliant and lovely and make me happy.

SCOTT ALLEN:

Well, it really truly, I mean, I was with a group recently and they were kind of charting their path forward. And and it really is fascinating to watch, Andrew, where some people's minds, to your point, they're so focused on their agenda and their path forward that a very quick, you know, I think that's really intriguing. We could probably complete both, or we probably could achieve both of these, or maybe we can achieve both, but maybe not on a maybe an extended timeline. And then all of a sudden you're building and you're staying in a place of possibilities and you're staying in a place of of kind of um growth and appreciate like an appreciative space versus a space that shuts down. And those are that's a skill. That's a skill when you are leading others and collaborating and trying to improvise what's happening in the room. And how do you combine some things so that maybe not everyone's getting exactly what they want, but they felt heard, they felt like a piece of what they were kind of value as being bolted on. It's a skill.

Andrew McMasters:

It is, and especially these days, that idea of I have felt heard. Even if my idea didn't move forward, I felt heard, I felt included. Now I'm engaged. And I mean, every study you read, when you're engaging employees, they put in extra discretionary effort, and now all of a sudden that increases the bottom line of the company. So these are skills to help your financial benefit continue to grow, your output continue to go. I it's um it's fascinating to me to sort of think about that too. And one of the things I find with a lot of new leaders is they don't delineate between the two. They get the idea of yes, and they're like, yes, and but that'll never work. Yes, and but that'll never work. Right. So it's you're you're setting it up and you're shutting it down, you're setting it up and you're shutting it down, as opposed to understanding that there is a time where you've got um the divergent thinking.

SCOTT ALLEN:

Yeah.

Andrew McMasters:

We are we are considering possibilities. We're putting everything on the table. Let's play with it. Now let's analyze what we've talked about. Now let's do convergent thinking. What can we do and what can we walk out of this meeting deciding we're all going to do together? Yes. So making sure they're actually doing the two different thought processes at different times, as opposed to at the same time, which gives everybody that feeling of playing whack-a-mole. Like, I'm I'm just not getting anywhere. Yeah. So it's separating the thought processes and making sure that you're doing it in a methodical way so that you can actually include everyone, analyze, and then walk out of it with actual action items that you're gonna do.

SCOTT ALLEN:

Yes, yes, 100%. Well, and even, you know, as you were as you were talking, I I and you were talking about your own theater where we're gonna do an hour and a half of a Downton Abbey inspired. I mean, I just think of some of my favorite comedic experiences. And of course, you know, you have, I don't know how how much you watched Parks and Wreck. Oh, yeah. Like historically, like they would do the script, but then they would also kind of go off and shoot some other stuff just to see what emerged from the actors or spinal tap, you know, the end continues, or whatever that was called. You know, the Rob Reiner and that crew, right? Many of whom I think were in SCTV for years. I just watched an awesome documentary on John Candy. So I had SCTV on the mind. Oh, wow, cool. Yeah, but I mean, you know, again, that improvisation, and you have to be so focused. I mean, it has to be incredibly draining, right? I mean, and it is for leaders as well to truly be present and truly focused and trying to figure out how to yes and and collaborate and combine, it also takes energy. Would you agree?

Andrew McMasters:

It does. I and I think it also gives energy. It's one of those things that it is such a heightened level of you feel like everything's firing on all cylinders. Yes. Uh, I know for myself when I've stepped off of the stage for a great improv show, all of a sudden I just feel like I don't even know what happened. It just it just magically sort of came out. And those are the moments that we're looking for where you've let go of who you are and you've really thought about the group. I mean, one of the main rules I tell improvisers all the time is make your scene partner look good. Yes. It's not about what you say, it's about how do I make them look good. And I think that's what you're looking at too when you were watching the thing on on John Candy and SCTV. They're all externally focusing and thinking about how do I make the other people around me successful. Yes. That concept alone for business is fascinating. Oh, yeah. How many times are people externally focusing to go, how do I help you? How do I help you? How do I help you? As a leader, that's your job. Yes. I mean, I think that's a job number one.

SCOTT ALLEN:

Oh, 100%. And I think I think I used the wrong word, like energy. I don't think it takes presence. Oh, yeah, it does. Right. I mean, you have to be you have to be present and mindful in the moment. And then and then again, we've got the the the yes and as a tool in some ways, and then there's this underlying foundation of how do I make others look good?

Andrew McMasters:

Yeah. Oh, and and I think it's it's both to your point too. It's the it's really takes a lot of energy and it feels energizing. And then at some point you crash. You just do because it's too much, ah, you know, you feel like you're on constantly. So definitely crash afterwards, that's true.

SCOTT ALLEN:

Well, what are some other concepts that you see translating from the two domains in a really, really nice way? I mean, I love that that other orientation. Am I making others look good? And of course, yes, I mean, that's if you if you show up with that mindset, it's gonna be hard not to be successful. I mean, that's obviously a generalization, but it's just it's a great mindset from which to begin. What are some other connections that you see that just translate beautifully?

Andrew McMasters:

Uh yeah, the biggest one, and I I tried to put this in the book in the way uh uh it's a lot of the things actually that I see you talking about on on your podcast or it's on your website as well. It's the pieces of it's one thing for me to to read about it. It's one free thing for me to think about it. The other thing is, are you doing it? And and that whole idea of acting is doing. You are taking this idea and putting it into action. There are things you're doing moving forward. Uh, for me, it's always about that experiential learning piece. Yeah, I want you to actually try it. And then you have this physical experience of oh, what was that like? Yes. And now I can take that physical experience and I can intellectually tie it to how would I use it moving forward. So it's that practical application piece. And even in the book, I wrote the first part is sort of about okay, here's the issues that we run into. The next part is what could we do about it? The third part are here are the exercises. Yeah, do them, take them into your team, practice it. This is the part where I want you to actually try it. Don't just read about it, try it, do it. And then the last part is if we could all do that, what what would be possible? Like what could we change? How could things alter? And that's sort of the idea. I wanted it to be something where it's actually practical, where a leader could take it and go, all right, let's let's give it a shot. Here's the here's the exercise, here's the workbook, let's just go through it and see what we find. Nice. Um, that experimentation, I think, is the key. That's where you find things.

SCOTT ALLEN:

Well, even as you were speaking just now, I mean, I was reminded of a I was doing a session two weeks ago, and it was about making work fun. And so this was a construction company. So, yeah. Cool, let's go, let's have the conversation. And so I did a little segment on gratitude. And in real time, I just said, I want you to think of someone that you probably should have thanked in the last two weeks, but you just forgot to. Uh, send those folks a text right now. And it was amazing to watch it play out, Andrew, because they would send the text, and then a good portion of them, let's just say it's 20, 30 percent, immediately get feedback from a real human being that is like, you know what? Thank you so much. I really appreciate you checking back in, or your follow-up, or your your words of praise. And and you could just see the room, those people who got that little dopamine hit back. Yeah, it it just totally transformed their energy. And so, yes, how do we how do we get to a place of practicing? Because I could have just kind of kept it theoretical, and I have in the past, where it's like, oh, gratitude, it's important. Do it. No, let's try it, let's actually experiment a little bit and see what this is like, right?

Andrew McMasters:

And and I'm even, I mean, I get down to the the pragmatic part of it of I like to schedule it. Uh, a friend of mine, uh Darren Nerland, who uh does Learnapalooza, a bunch of different things here in the Pacific Northwest, he has down in his calendar a thing called random spontaneity. Yes. And it's like every Friday at a certain time. And it's like when that goes off, you go, Who have and I reached out to? Hey, just thinking about you and just hope everything's going well, and here's this. And it's just those times to remind yourself to touch base with people, say thank you. Wow, been thinking about you, hope things are going well. I mean, I think that does a bunch of different things. It helps you out with what is that person doing? How are they suddenly thinking of you? What else is going on? Um, the feeling that you get too of just saying, hey, thank you.

SCOTT ALLEN:

I was thinking about you. It was great. 100%. But I love the fact that you are operationalizing it and challenging people to experience some of these things in the moment, in real time, because that's absolutely critical, right? Yeah, yeah.

Andrew McMasters:

I love you were saying that exercise of doing that. One of the ones that I've done before for people is I just have them walk around and meet each other in a room and say, How did you start working here? And what do you love about it? And then it's like, okay, great, find someone else, do it again. Find someone else, do it again. And after about three, four times, then we go, What are you hearing that's the commonality? And in a way, you sort of find these beautiful, they're almost values that the entire room had that they didn't realize they had. Yes, yes, it's beautiful, like hearing those things.

SCOTT ALLEN:

Oh, oh, 100%, right? I mean, that that kind of um in the same session, I had I had participants write down answers to to three questions on three different index cards. And there were 140 people in the room, so 140 times three number of index cards kind of went up and were posted around the room. And it was so interesting to just kind of debrief that with the group. One participant said, you know, 20 minutes ago, all of that was just inside us and not known. Yeah. And this very quick shift of now I'm seeing hundreds. And I saw my name up there a couple of times, and it felt really, really wonderful that someone had encouraged. And but it's so amazing to me those things that are kind of in us and maybe not expressed, but could be, and the difference that that makes in a space, right? And just no different than yes, and that that subtle rule just totally shifts the energy. And I mean, I love those types of things. It's fascinating.

Andrew McMasters:

It it is, and and also what I love what you're describing too is you've allowed the space for that to happen. And I I think, you know, to be honest, when we talk about listening and I and I focus on listening, I find that people don't provide the space for that. I have the idea or my agenda, or oh, you know what, you just talked about that and I'm suddenly solutioning in my head, or we don't have time for this, or what do they need from me, or I have other things to do, like all of these other things that fill up the head as opposed to let me just allow space for it. Yes. Wow, okay, this is what I'm hearing. Tell me if I'm hearing that correctly. Great. Now we have clarity. Let's try and figure out so those things, the space for it, like you said, the space for someone to go, I saw my name on these cards. Wow. Yeah. That's beautiful. That is so, I mean, it's spine jingling for me. It's just amazing.

SCOTT ALLEN:

Well, but also to your point, the space for us to really be present and have a conversation and a dialogue and to truly try and take in what this other person is is saying. Um I think we get distracted day to day. I love the idea of that kind of random spontaneity, like it's planned for, but the day takes over. Yeah. Teams meeting after teams meeting after teams meeting. I'm just surviving. I'm not necessarily moving through that with a level of presence. When those leaders who do move through that with a level of presence, who do move through that with creating that space, uh, those people are ninjas. They they are Jedi's, and I I come across them and I'm just in awe. I really am. Yeah. Because it's not easy.

Andrew McMasters:

No, it's not. And and you know, I even look back at the mistakes that I made, you know, running my company. Because again, I didn't have a lot of training doing that. No. Um, there was one time I remember like I was working there and someone came in and talked to me, and I'm like, Yeah, okay. And I'm talking to them, I'm talking to them. And afterwards, my wife, who it was there visiting, looked at me and said, You know, you never took your eyes off the keyboard the entire time you talked to them. Yes. And that that hits me just like, oh, wow, I continued to work on this, even though they're talking to me about something. Yeah, yeah, okay. Oh, totally cool. And not even making eye contact, not being present, as you said, with with them, being available, making that space for them to continue to talk to me. Yep. And if I don't make that space, I can't hear the next brilliant innovation that's going to help us to take the next step. So, you know, I'm kind of screwing myself in a way.

SCOTT ALLEN:

Oh, yeah. No, 100%. You can't hear it. You literally can't. And you also miss a lot of good that's happening in front of you because there's a number of people who are showing up, doing their part, giving what you you know, discretionary effort. And I I see this at times as well. That's why some of these hacks, like the Friday spontaneity, is such a great idea, because they're happening. Are we seeing them? And are we acknowledging? And those are again little dopamine hits that we know what it feels like when you work for someone who's missed the opportunity to say, thank you, that was awesome. I appreciate you for months at a time. Yeah. And slowing down, how are there tools that you use? I mean, even just like the story you shared of your wife just now, where I mean, being open to feedback and being known as someone who's open to feedback is incredibly important. And your wife felt like she could give you that feedback, which is great. But are there are there tools that you've come across or ways you think about how we help people slow down and get into that space? How do you think about that?

Andrew McMasters:

I this is where I kind of started to focus. It feels to me like it starts with how we show up listening. Yeah. And uh, and the first thing that I end up doing is is getting people to shut down what's happening in your head. And and again, it it's difficult to shut down what's happening in your head because if you say, okay, don't, you know, just just focus, don't do this, don't do this. That doesn't work. Yeah, exactly. Right. Don't think about a pink elephant. What am I doing? Right. Um so it's giving the brain a job. And one of the first pieces I do is, okay, whatever they're saying, you're gonna encapsulate this into one sentence. Okay. So now I'm sitting there thinking, okay, what is it? What is it? Great. What I'm hearing is this. The next step, which I think is is leaning a little bit more onto that that feeling, making the space like we've been talking about, is you know, based on what you said, what I'm hearing is this is what you really care about. This is what you really value. Tell me if I'm hearing that correctly. And again, I haven't started into solutions or what we could do or possibilities. I'm just reflecting back. Wow, it sounds to me like fairness is something you really care about. Tell me if I'm hearing that correctly. Yep. It sounds to me like you really value education. Yeah, uh, and if I can start reflecting back what they value, what they care about, suddenly that conversation turns about something else. And and I, you know, to be honest, again, being pragmatic, I teach this for salespeople because I find a lot of times they're like, I know what I have to sell. Someone mentioned something, ha, I know how to position it. Great. And they're all thinking about positioning as opposed to just have a conversation.

SCOTT ALLEN:

Yes.

Andrew McMasters:

And the minute you can start reflecting back, it sounds to me like this is what you really care about. Tell me if that's correct. Yep. Suddenly that got deeper. Yes. And we are now having a whole different conversation. Yes. And now that conversation is like, well, you know, maybe some of our products could actually fulfill that for you. Let's talk about that. It it's a it it changes the dynamic.

SCOTT ALLEN:

100%. I mean, you're getting into uh what I what I love about that is you're you're moving into values, yeah, emotion. Um it's a deeper, it's a deeper level conversation, fairness, equity, um, being heard. Uh you're you're getting into kind of a deeper level that now becomes a pretty real conversation. Yeah. That again, to your point, other salespeople, they're probably so eye-consumed, eye-focused, not focused on helping the other person shine, the other person look good, because ultimately that's what that person who's buying this product probably they want to be thought well of. They want to be thought that they're doing a good job, that they've brought something valuable to the table. And you're connecting with them at just a deeper level. I love that. I absolutely love that.

Andrew McMasters:

I and I I think it leads to a little bit too of what you said of how that leader shows up. After you start to practice that and after you start to listen for it, then it's that idea of, well, what do I really care about? I mean, I I was running a program called an ROI on time and getting people who are consultants to sort of think of where do you spend your time? Yeah. And what do you say you value? Uh the majority of them I found were always like top value was family, family, family. And then we'd look at their calendar and go, okay, well, you've you've missed your last three soccer games that your kid was playing in because you had meetings. So if you're gonna say family is a top value, are you actually living that value? And and I feel like, in a way, yes, there's so much work, you have so much to do. But when you can demonstrate that you're living that value, the people around you see that. Yeah. And then that changes how they're working, and it changes it, it's it's real, yeah. As opposed to, no, we're all we're all working, you know, we're muzzling it through, which doesn't get you anywhere. Yeah. So I think it's that again, that value of like I believe in this value and I live this value, and you can see this value reflected in my actions and my decisions and the things that I do moving forward and the way my calendar is. Yes, my values are reflecting that.

SCOTT ALLEN:

Well, and uh, I mean, what I love about this now too is that that that congruence then shines through. I mean, you've worked with the leader who said the right thing, but their behavior, the congruence wasn't there. Uh, the energy wasn't congruent with even or their calendar told the real story. I mean, there's a lack of congruence. And when you're I had a guest on recently who um who kind of spoke to the spirit of this, but you know, that inner space, it's gonna show up in your behavior, and it's either congruent and it's it's it's aligned or it's not. And we can Alanis Morriset, I'm a Gen Xer, so uh she had a line. I I feel right through you. And I've said that a few times on the podcast recently, but you can feel when there's actual alignment there, and you can feel maybe when there isn't that alignment there, right? Yeah, yeah.

Andrew McMasters:

And and I think that then as a leader, everyone is looking to you. Oh, yeah. You are you are modeling that behavior. Yep. Uh I know for myself the first time I sat in a staff meeting and I picked up my my phone to look at something. I've now given everyone in that room the permission to look at their phone. Yeah. So if I really am asking you to be here and to be available, I need to set that model. I need to set the standard. That means living through my values. That means not picking up my phone. That means being here and listening and being present and not just staring at my keyboard while you talk. It it's all those things that you you start to realize I'm I am playing this role, you know, um, and I have to show up this way for my team.

SCOTT ALLEN:

100%. I mean, literally this week I was in a meeting where the senior leader in the conversation, small group conversation, let's go five people plus this individual, is for a large faction of the conversation, just literally looking down at the phone, every once in a while looking up, looking down, and and checked out. And I mean, I wish there was a a way I could have been a little more forceful and upfront with that individual as to how they were showing up and the ramifications of that, but it is. It's just really now. If I were to empathize, that person's being pulled in a thousand directions. There's a there's, you know, we can we can go down all the reasons why they were distracted. But if that's the case, I could step, get up, I could say, Hey, you know what? I got a little bit of a fire, I'll be back in a moment. And there's just that social awareness of okay, I'm not acting in congruence here, probably with what I would expect from my team, because I wouldn't want them to all be on their device right now, totally checked out. So, do I have that social and emotional intelligence to say, you know what, got a little bit of a fire, I'm gonna be back in a moment, and then come back, be present, lock in. But that again, oof.

Andrew McMasters:

Well, being aware of the impact that that behavior is having on the team. And and I I equate this a little bit on listening too, because in the book I talk about it's not just what I'm hearing, it's not just auditory, it's what am I seeing that is the reaction, you know? All of a sudden I saw someone lean back in their chair in a way. Well, did I hear that? You know, because that is that's something that I have to take as that social cue that then says, okay, there's something else happening here. Um, I I'm working with uh a leader right now who's in the process of a transition. So the big general manager's leaving and he's taking Taking over, and there's sort of a long transition period. And he was telling me that the other general manager is going to be doing this town hall. And he's going to be introduced, but then he's up front. And he said, There's a lot of stuff he's doing, I just don't agree with. And I said, That's fine. You're down front. You got to smile, nod, and say, Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because everyone's watching you. Yes. When he's gone and you're in charge, you can do other things. That's fine. Right now, be the team player. Smile, nod, be present. Go, yeah, okay, good. Because everyone's looking at you. And be aware that that is what's happening. You know, you are modeling whatever you need to see. And the minute you go, oh no, that's gonna change the dynamic in the room.

SCOTT ALLEN:

Well, and as an actor, yeah, see those nonverbals. I mean, exactly. Again, you're trained to see the eyes get bigger or sitting back in the crossed arms. And it it's again, I see so many connections from world to world that are just incredibly valuable, right? Yeah.

Andrew McMasters:

It kind of started, sorry, I did kind of go back on this. It kind of started for me. For many years, I worked for Microsoft, Apple Computer, and I stood on stage and I demoed hardware or software. Okay. Um, and that was my job. So I started to realize that I was being hired to stand in front of a thousand people and pretend that I worked at Apple Computer. And the reason was is because the people who had written this were too afraid to stand up there and talk about something, something that they were so passionate about they had spent five years of their lives developing. Yes. And that's the part that said to me, Well, wait a minute, what if I can train you? What if I can help you to bring that out? Yeah. What if I can help you to show up fully because this is yours? Yes. I it's sure. As an actor, I can do that. I can find that passion, I can find the cool thing, I can do that. What I want to do is I start asking you, well, what's cool about it? What do you love? Oh, and they light up, right? Oh, they light up, right? Even though it's server load balancing, they're going, Oh, okay, the packets come in, and then they're starting to all right. And you you watch them just fire up, and that's what we're talking about. That I want that passion. That's what's going to excite people, that's what's going to draw people around you to say, Yeah, yeah, I want to follow this person. Look at the passion, look at the excitement. So it's drawing those things out. It's really acting training.

SCOTT ALLEN:

Yeah, well, it no, a hundred percent. It is, it really, really is. I do some work with some cardiac surgeons, and oh sometimes I'll push, I'll I'll I'll just it'll be it'll be presentation training, and and it'll be okay. Let's just do a quick pause. Are you excited about these research results? I mean, I have no clue what they mean, it's just like something pumping and you know, images, and and they're like, Yeah, this is really groundbreaking.

Andrew McMasters:

And I'm like, Well, could you I don't see that I'm not feeling it right now.

SCOTT ALLEN:

Could you say intrigued? I mean, even that word would cause a little bit of intrigued by the results we found.

Andrew McMasters:

Exactly. And I I almost um I had almost taken a position. I sort of started my own company and went my own direction, but I almost took a position at the um Stony Brook, uh, which basically is the Alan Alda School of Communicating Science. Yeah, and this was the same thing. Here's Alan Alda, who's an actor who suddenly realized all of these scientists couldn't get their idea across because it was all science, science, science, science. And it's like, are you excited about this? Same thing. Like, what's cool about this, surgeon? Please tell me. I want that to come out. Um, yeah, it's it's so important.

SCOTT ALLEN:

It's incredible. And I'm like, well, okay. Maybe tell me why that is, because I want to know. Yeah. Tell me the story. Uh so as we begin to wind our wind down our time, is there anything else about the book that you want listeners to know? So that um, I of course we're gonna have links in the show notes. So um, anything else that you want to say about it?

Andrew McMasters:

You know, the main thing that I think I really want, and I think this is something I use for leaders all across the board, and and for the book, I tried to put this in is really the what am I trying to accomplish? What's my intention? And then how am I gonna start getting towards it so that I can start to set out this is my goal. Yeah, this is what I want to do. Uh, one of the pieces of research that I love to sort of cite is um that it was a college research, they took 450 arachnophobes, okay, people deathly afraid of spiders, and they put them in a room with a tarantula in a glass box in the middle of the room. Okay. And they said, try and get close to it. And they told one group, like, talk about anything else, like sports, the weather, you know. They told another group, like, don't think about anything, don't talk about anything. However, they had a group that they said, talk about how you're feeling, talk about what's getting in your way. And that group was able to get closer to the spider. Some of them were able to reach in and touch it. Wow. So cognitively, what we've been able to find is just that idea of if you can identify what it is you want, what you're working on, that helps you to start to move towards that. It's even just identifying it for yourself, saying it out loud, writing it down, whatever it is. And so I think that's sort of the thing is if you want to be a better listener, it's really that idea of like, oh great, I got the book. I'd really love for you to write down in the front of the book, what do you want? Yeah. Or say it out loud to someone. Yes. That I think helps you to get the tools to actually start to go, what am I doing here? Yes.

SCOTT ALLEN:

Yeah. And and we will, you know, my friend John A. Cove says, you know, imperfectly move forward, right? It's not gonna be steps forward and steps back. We're gonna make mistakes and we're gonna sometimes show up and have our head buried in the computer and not pay attention like we should. But that awareness builds. And if we truly value that, we'll get better. We will. I mean, it's there's that motivation to learn, and but oof, I love it. I love it. Well, hey, okay, so I always end the conversation by saying or asking, I should say, what have you been listening to, streaming, reading? What's caught your attention recently that you may be of interest to to listeners? It does could have to do with what we've just discussed. It may have nothing to do with what we've just discussed. And I'll play as well. I'll I'll share something with you. But I'm gonna wait for you to share yours, and then maybe that'll spark something.

Andrew McMasters:

I I mean, you know, the hardest thing for me right now is I I have a couple different I have piles of books, you know, having just finished Sabina's book a little while ago. Yes, yes, which you had Sabina on the on the podcast. Um, I have piles of business books, but I keep trying to intersperse it with different things. And uh, and I just started picking up the Slow Horses book after seeing the show on Apple TV. Was that good? It's the show is phenomenal. The acting is uh is really, really top-notch. It's beautiful, beautiful to watch. And the twists and turns, yeah. And the books are also really, really well done. So I think right now I'm in a little bit of a yeah, a little nerd out on my slow horses sort of thing.

SCOTT ALLEN:

That's my no, I I think you know, I think we started watching like the first episode, and for some reason it just I don't know what it was. It wasn't the right night, or it just we were distracted by something else not being present, probably. But um, you know, we need to give that another shot. Because I think is there a new season out? Is that what it was that the new season? Yeah, yeah, a new season is out too. I just finished that one last night, so that's why. Okay, so so I I I have not seen it yet, but Andrew, I don't know if you've seen the trailer for the Bruce Springsteen movie, and I'm not a huge Bruce Springsteen fan, but I have gone out and I've listened to Nebraska. The storytelling in that is incredible, and then Jeremy Allen White. I mean, my gosh, between what I expect this performance to be, I'm I'm excited to see it. I just really am.

Andrew McMasters:

I it okay, so I'm just gonna piggyback on that for a moment because as I said, I grew up outside of Philadelphia, I spent my entire youth driving to the Jersey Shore. So Bruce Springsteen is a part of my growing up and my life in so many ways. My my regret is I did not get to New York to see him on Broadway. Uh he was doing his one-person show. I saw the video of it, they have it on Netflix. Uh so if you want to see that, that's wonderful. But yeah, I can't wait for that movie either. I just cannot win, cannot wait.

SCOTT ALLEN:

It it was funny because Jeremy Allen White's being interviewed, and and so the the the interviewer said, So you learned guitar. And and he said, Well, I got to the first lesson with my teacher, and he said, We will not be learning guitar, we will be learning five Bruce songs, and that is all, you know. So he was like, Have you learned guitar? He's like, No, I know these five songs. Yep. You know, oh anytime you know, Val Kilmer when he sang the music of the doors, or individuals are performing in that way. And actually, um, the the gentleman who played Bob Dylan in that film a couple years ago, um, he just escaped me. Doom. Uh shamal, uh Shamalon.

Andrew McMasters:

Uh yeah, it's it's yeah. Timothy Shalomet. Shalomet, that's it. Thank you. I knew it was there somewhere. I'm like, it's not M. Night Shalon, it's Chalamet. Got it. All right.

SCOTT ALLEN:

Yeah, it wasn't it wasn't crop circles type stuff. It wasn't Bruce Willis and I see dead people, but there we go, right. Yeah, yes, yeah. Well, Andrew, I really, really appreciate your time. As as I said, we will have links in the show notes. And so, listeners, please feel free to click on that, purchase that, and um I you know what, sir. I just I really, really appreciate you, and thank you so much for your time today. Thank you.

Andrew McMasters:

I appreciate being here, and this is wonderful.

SCOTT ALLEN:

I I feel energized from this, so this is great.

Andrew McMasters:

Thank you.

SCOTT ALLEN:

Me too. Me have a wonderful weekend. Thanks, you too. Bye-bye. So I've had a couple episodes around improv, a little bit on acting, but I'm just more and more amazed at this space and the conversation and how it relates to leadership and leader development. I think an advanced skill is really remaining present and mindful about how we are interacting with others throughout the day. That energy that we're putting out, as Jonathan Reims would say, leaders create the weather, and it's hard to hide that inner state of yourself. Whether you're a parent or whether you're leading in an organization, it's difficult to hide that inner state. So are we aware? Are we present? Are we mindful? And in the moment, paying close attention to how we're showing up. And for me, I think that's a next level skill of great managers and great leaders. And to Andrew, thank you so much for that conversation. Very much appreciate it. To all of you, as always, thanks for checking in. Bye bye.