Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott J. Allen, Ph.D.

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast with Jon Macaskill

• Scott J. Allen • Season 1 • Episode 306

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Jon Macaskill is a retired Navy SEAL Commander turned speaker, mindfulness teacher, and leadership coach. Over his 24-year military career, he led special operations organizations ranging from 16 men to over 2,500 people. Today, he blends hard-earned military lessons with mindful leadership tools to help individuals and organizations grow through resilience, grit, and compassion. At the heart of it all, he uses his voice, presence, and past (especially the hard parts) to help others unlock their potential.

A  Couple of Quotes From This Episode

  • “Being nice feels good in the moment. Being kind is longer lasting.”
  • “I would rather not pick a side and join the two sides than pick a side and divide us.”

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

  • The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. 

About  Scott J. Allen

My Approach to Hosting

  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.



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Scott Allen:

Okay, everybody, welcome to Practical Wisdom for Leaders. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world. Today, Jon Macaskill, and he is a retired U.S. Navy SEAL commander, LinkedIn top voice in masculinity and traditionalism, a leadership consultant and mindfulness teacher, co-host of the Men Talking Mindfulness Podcast, and he is a keynote speaker on grit, compassion, resilience. Jon, thank you. What's not in your bio that I just quickly kind of covered that people should know about you, sir? Thank you so much for being here.

Jon Macaskill:

Uh well, Scott, thanks for having me. Uh, I know we've known one another for a while now, and this is the first time that we've connected uh virtually like this, and uh hopefully down the road we'll connect in real life. Yes. But yeah, I think the the biggest thing that is not in the bio there, um, it is in my tagline on LinkedIn is dad first. Uh, you know, married uh three young kiddos. So I'm 48, but I've got a six-year-old, or sorry, an eight-year-old, a six-year-old, and a four-year-old. Okay. So I got I got started late, but uh, I like to say that I'm vintage and have a lot of wisdom to share with them. So uh yeah, that's that's the piece that was missing.

Scott Allen:

Oh, that's awesome. We have three as well. We have twin girls that are 15 and a son 17. So we're we're a little further down the road, but so much fun, isn't it? I mean, and talk about a mirror, right? Of where you need to learn, develop, and grow.

Jon Macaskill:

Big time. Oh my gosh, my kids call me out all the time on my on my my BS.

Scott Allen:

Yes, they're fantastic. Yes, yes. Well, no one, you know, before we had kids, I I was a little bit older, I think, when I'm 53, so a little bit older when we had kids too. But I it was all these conversations of oh, diapers, and we used to have a life, and we know all this kind of like commiserating, but it has been so much fun. And there's things that are like these wonderful surprises. Like, for instance, no one ever said to me, like, hey, you are gonna craft and shape your children's sense of humor, for instance, right? And there's this moment where we're watching elf probably around your kid's age, and they're laughing at all the right, the sarcasm, the irony, they're laughing at everything. And I looked at my wife and I just gave her this kind of like, okay, we're winning type. And and so we've been going through all of the comedies of the 80s and the 90s, and beautiful night, what we watched. We watched a documentary on Jon Candy, and then we watched Space Balls.

Jon Macaskill:

I saw that. Oh my gosh, Space Balls, what a classic! Yeah, we uh we just brought them into ET. And uh, I know uh it was funny. I was like, there's only one bad word in it, and and then I realized watching it, there's several bad words in it, they're not terrible, but I was like, uh well, I watched this when I was seven years old, so I didn't turn out too bad.

Scott Allen:

One loved it. Yeah, great film, and uh PG meant something different then. Yeah, um, if you watch the original airplane, be careful.

Jon Macaskill:

Oh my goodness, yeah. Yeah, there's a lot in that one. Oh, I forgot OJ is a naked gun. I was trying, yeah, yeah.

Scott Allen:

Oh well, you know, I I'm so excited for our conversation today, and obviously you bring so much to the table, so much experience, wisdom, and uh especially around this topic of leadership. But I think where I want to start the conversation is what have you been thinking about recently? I mean, as you kind of navigate um your work, what's kind of top of mind for you? What's catching your attention these days?

Jon Macaskill:

Yeah. Um, it's probably what's catching most people's attention. Uh, and and I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole, but it's the political environment that we're in right now. And uh, you know, I don't want to speak negatively or positively. I want to be neutral because that's where I think most of America is. Yeah. But social media and news media focus on the the polar, uh, the ends of the polar spectrums and um kind of sow this divisiveness. And I I wish that our leaders on either side of the aisle uh would step up and and try to bring us together as a country rather than dividing us. I mean, the the old saying, uh, you know, united we, what is it to together we oh man, I'm I'm missing it.

Scott Allen:

I mean, divided, we fall.

Jon Macaskill:

Yeah, that's that's yeah, together we stand, divided, we fall. There you go. See, I need I need more coffee, but yes, that's that's so true. Um and I think that's where you know leadership in politics, leadership in organizations, leadership within the military. Yes, there are times we we're going to have to go uh you know one way or the other that may upset one side or the other. But there's also times when we need to see, okay, what can bring us together as an organization, what can develop our culture so that we can work um towards a common goal. And uh that's that's what's been on my mind uh as of late. Um yeah, so I think that's probably what's on a lot of people's minds.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, you know, I let's let's let's stay on this for a little bit because I think it's really, really important. I was saying to a friend the other day, I mean, it's it's a multi, maybe even trillion. I don't know. Someone smarter than me with numbers would know, but it's a multi-billion dollar industry to keep us divided, to keep us agitated, to keep us anxious, to keep us clicking, to keep us uh scared, anxious, nervous. And it's really, really fascinating. I imagine like this corporation, just call it division. And the if it was on the Dow, I mean, it's billions and billions of dollars, right? I mean, regardless of where you are, this this kind of news entertainment, however we want to define that, whether it's rush or rachel, um it it it in it it keeps us it keeps us inflamed. And so, you know, I sat down on the airplane the other day, and this woman looked at me. I she hadn't even sat down yet. She's like, You Republican? Oh my goodness. I looked at her and I said, that had that escalated quickly. She kind of laughed. But you know, it was interesting because um I said, we're probably not that dissimilar, right? And and she said, Well, what do you mean? And I said, Well, okay, uh, right to bear arms, you believe in that? She's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. And I'm like, military-grade weapons on the streets, just kind of you know, easy to get, no, right. And she's like, Yeah, no, that's not good. And okay, we're we're we're close. Um, have immigrants built this country, yeah, in many ways, yeah, for sure. Should we let them across the border just kind of you know, willy-nilly, and there's no process? No, no, I I agree with you, and probably US presidents for the last 50 years haven't been able to kind of figure out that puzzle and and fix it. And so we had this really wonderful conversation. Nice, but you know, I think it is, it's so interesting. The the the divisiveness is big business, it's making trillions trillions.

Jon Macaskill:

Yeah, I would I would I would bet that it is making trillions. Um you know, and again, I don't want to go too far down this path, but yes, that's and that that's where I think leadership needs to step in, is to say, you know what? Um these 24-hour news networks, social media, um, they are dividing the country. This is the truth, and speak the truth. Um, or get a network that speaks the truth rather than dividing us and show that, yes, exactly. Like you just said, we have way more in common uh than we have different, at least most of us. And uh I think that's what we need to celebrate. Now, granted, that that doesn't sell. It doesn't sell.

Scott Allen:

Well, that's the thing. Like you and I should in the next 25 minutes figure out how we monetize the middle, like you know, like Republicans and Democrats, they they collaborated today, you know. Like how do we monetize that? Because we would make billions if we could monetize that. I mean, it's it is, it's so interesting. And us as humans and our own kind of biology that that is clicking, that is, that is duped isn't the word I want to use, but we're seduced very quickly into uh into clicking. And yeah, it's it gone are the days of kind of like what you just said, the Walter Cronkite, like, okay, that's the way it is. And you know, generally speaking, that's kind of where we are as a country. And everyone went to bed, and there was a similar, at least, mindset about where we were, and and now we just have these different realities, right?

Jon Macaskill:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you watch the different networks, it's as we're living in a different world. Yeah.

Scott Allen:

So well, and and so how do you think about that? I mean, when you uh and and so your work in mindfulness is so incredible on on a number of different levels, but it's almost like collective mindfulness. How do we how do we collectively be more mindful? I don't know. I just how how do you see the intersection of mindfulness and some of what we've just discussed?

Jon Macaskill:

Yeah. Well, I think it comes down to uh a lot of what mindfulness is, is just awareness without judgment. And that latter part is the is the key. Is not judging what you're feeling physically, not judging what you're feeling emotionally, just being in it. And that I think helps to foster several things. One, it uh helps to foster emotional regulation so that you can have a conversation without getting really upset. Yeah, uh, you know, a conversation with somebody with differing viewpoints. It also helps to foster empathy and compassion. So not only does it regulate your emotions when you're having a conversation, but it also helps you to potentially see the other person's viewpoint. Understand, you may not understand their viewpoint, but you can understand, okay, this is where they're coming from, this is their background, this is how they were raised, this is where they were raised, and this is why they see things differently than I do. And I think that's where mindfulness can come into that collective mindfulness. I like that term. Yeah, you know, as as a as a country, like you mentioned at the beginning, uh, one of the things that I speak about is compassion. Um, and that is one thing that we could foster through through mindfulness, through having mindful conversations, through having mindful uh meetings together. Um uh representative Tim Ryan, I think it was a representative, um, he may have been a senator. Um I'm forgetting now. No, Wisconsin. Yeah, yep, yep, yep. Yeah, so uh he was uh at um he was developing the mindful nation within Congress.

Speaker 2:

Really?

Jon Macaskill:

Since left. But yeah, he really tried to bring in mindfulness into Congress um with marginal success, but we need more heart in Congress than money. And uh that's unfortunately not the case right now.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, you know, it it's um I had a I had a professor, Barbara Kellerman, she was at the Harvard Kennedy School for years, and she's just a wizard. And she said, you know, um, in some ways our country is running some old software, and some of that old software, uh, it has some bugs. And you know, even things like, you know, when it was justice for life, well, you know, that was the the the person died. In that case, the man died at about 67. So life wasn't all that unreasonable, but you get to like, you know, 90, and you know, it it's different, or right to bear arms, sure, but that probably the founders couldn't conceive of what that could mean someday. I mean, right, and and so it's just an interesting kind of um kind of observation on some of what we're seeing now, or or the system kind of elevates the extremes in the primary process, you know? Oh and that's that's kind of something that's been kind of discovered and and utilized and abused, and um so it's so interesting, but I I love the fact I I hadn't heard that that Ryan had really proposed mindfulness at that level. Yeah, it's like we're so busy doing, going, producing, reacting that it's so hard to slow down, even as I work with corporate executives, it's so hard to slow down and be present and aware. We're just ping ping ping.

Jon Macaskill:

I think that's that's one of the hardest places it is to be to be present and slow down, because you know, in the in the military, it actually it actually pays to be present and slow down and assess. And really it pays everywhere to do that. But the common misconception is that as you do more and more and more, and as you do more efficiently, um that you're going to increase the bottom line. And to some point, to some extent, that's true. But eventually you're gonna burn your people out, you're gonna burn yourself out. And if you do stop and pause and use the term reactive, that's absolutely when I meditate, one of my mantras, as I breathe in, I say more patient, and as I breathe out, I say less reactive. And I mean that that that right there, if you can respond versus react, you know, whether it's with my kids in the morning putting their shoes on, yeah, or not in their case, not putting their shoes on, uh, all the way to uh the politics that we were just talking about, we could all afford to slow down. But yeah, in corporate America, it seems as though the thought is the faster the more, the more the faster, the better. And uh I don't believe in that. I think we've long since surpassed the point of diminishing returns in a lot of corporate teams.

Scott Allen:

In your training in the SEALs or even in the military in general, I'm I'm interested in this kind of notion of uh slowing down. You know, in that case, it's it's a lot's coming at you, and it's it's life or death much of the time. But you'd said something, and I would just want to make sure it was accurate. Like so in in those moments, slowing down can actually save lives, save your life. Talk a little bit about that. Is there is there actual on that?

Jon Macaskill:

Yeah, we have a saying, and it mostly applies to shooting or moving through a building or some type of structure, but it can apply to a lot more. But we have a saying in the SEAL teams slow is smooth, smooth is fast. And I know it if you really boil it down, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But it's just like if you're moving too fast, again, whether that's on the battlefield or in a corporate team, yeah, you're bound to make mistakes, you're bound to miss opportunities, you're bound to miss threats. And and I mean, again, that's a threat on the battlefield or a threat in the corporate space. Yep. Certainly those threats are different, but they're still threats nonetheless. You're gonna miss those. And then you're gonna have to do what you were trying to do again because it's gonna it's gonna be a mistake. There's gonna be a mistake made, there's gonna be uh you're gonna take longer to do it. So it's just like a turnpaper, right? When we were younger, you know, before ChatGPT existed, when we actually had to write these things and you turn them in and you're like, oh my gosh, I I knocked that out. I I wrote it in, you know, I crammed in my turn paper last night and uh and then I turned it in today. And then you get it back later that week and it's got red all over it. But if you had spent a week writing it and been slower and then submitted it at the end of the week, maybe it would have come back with fewer red marks on it, right? So you only have to do it once or twice instead of three, four, five times. Yep. So the same thing applies in everything we do, uh, from you know how we get to work, like driving. If you're not paying attention, you end up like the other day, I was uh I drive my kids to school every morning. Yeah. But the other day, my wife took the kids to school and or two of my three kids to school, and I was driving my eldest daughter to the dentist. But in the in my mind, I was still driving her to school. So I started driving her to school and I was like, what am I doing? I'm going the totally wrong way. Right. So I wasn't paying attention. Yep. And what did I have to do? Now I ended up being late to the dentist because I wasn't paying attention. But if I'd been more slow and methodical and been paying attention, then I would have gotten there on time. And I know that's a seemingly minuscule anecdote, but you magnify that to everything that we do every moment in our lives. Yep. Yeah, slow is smooth, smooth is fast, makes sense.

Scott Allen:

Yeah. Well, and I think whether it's on the battlefield or whether it's an organizational life, obviously the stakes are very, very different. But um the pace of everything, if we allow that pace to control us, I think that's when to your point, we make mistakes. We just inattentional blindness, all just all those things, we become subject to those things more easily than I had a friend who was a rear admiral. She carried the football for Clinton, actually. Oh, yeah. Coast guard. Yeah. And um she she had called it something of you're you're in the basement, getting out of the basement. And that was the phrasing she used, but you know, slow down to get out of the basement because right now you're stuck in the and you know, she has these incredible stories of you know, nor'easters off the coast of Massachusetts and 20-foot waves for 24 hours type stuff.

Jon Macaskill:

Yeah, I I bet she has to be slow and smooth uh to handle some of that stuff. And I love that that metaphor. As you said, that I've kind of I'm kind of imagining these horror movies, you know, when there's some type of monster or whatever it is in the basement. And whenever somebody's trying to run out of the basement, they always trip and fall and end up pushing the door close and locking it and never can get out. But if you had been slower and smoother, maybe you would have gotten away from that psycho down there.

Scott Allen:

Oh well, what else? What else is on your mind? What else are you thinking about today? I I love where you started.

Jon Macaskill:

I mean, it's a topic. But so yeah, it really depends on what time of the day. Uh I would normally say what day you get me is gonna uh drive what's on my mind, but this day and age, it's what hour you get me. So, you know, I've just dropped my kids off at school. I'm thinking about what the rest of the day holds, thinking about uh, you know, work. Um, so I I am a solopreneur right now. I I was working as a contractor for a construction company down in Dallas, but now I'm doing my my own thing and uh teaching mindfulness meditation, doing the the keynotes, doing the podcasts. And what's on my mind is just really how to get people. I don't know if you saw my posts last night about the difference between being nice and being kind. I did, I did see that. Yeah, and and that's uh that's something that I'm really trying to drive home to people is there's a lot of people who are nice people, and really I think for the most part, they're being nice because they're scared. They're scared to tell somebody uh that they're doing something wrong or that they're not performing well. And I really want to teach people how to be kind instead. So uh I was telling my daughter coming back to our kids and how we raise them and the lessons that we teach them. And this is kind of a gross example, but it's an it's a it's an important one. I said because we've watched this, uh we've read this book together and we've watched this movie. It's a short movie on on Apple uh TV. It's called The The Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse. It's a beautiful, beautiful movie. Okay. It's very short. It's animated, but it's you can see that it's hand-drawn the whole time. And uh there's one scene the boy can talk to these different animals. And there's one scene the mole asks the boy what he wants to be when he grows up, and the boy says, kind. He doesn't say what he wants to be as far as profession, he just says, I want to be kind. And that's got this whole kind versus nice thing stirring in the head. Yeah. And so I was telling my daughter, I said, Hey, you do you know what the difference between nice and kind is? And she said, they're the same thing. I said, They're kind of, but if I was sitting here, here's what gets a little bit gross. I said, if I was sitting here and I had a booger hanging out of my nose, if you're being nice, you would just let it hang out of my nose because you wouldn't want to embarrass me in the moment. But then I would go, I would walk around and see other people, and I've got this booger hanging out of my nose. You know, I'm done, I'm I don't want to say dumbing it down because my eight-year-old's way smarter than I am. But I totally get it. On her level, yeah, I'm on her level. And uh, and then I say, somebody who was being kind would be like, hey, dad or Jon, you've got something hanging out of your nose. And that would spare me the embarrassment for the rest of the day. Sure, I would feel a little bit embarrassed for that three seconds that you told me, but then I wouldn't be embarrassed the rest of the day. Um, and that is the difference. And she said, Oh, and I could see the light bulb go off in her mind. And coming back to where we really started this conversation, I think we need more kind people in the world than we do nice people. Um, I think nice is coming from a place of fear, uh, place of weakness, uh, place of self-preservation. Whereas kindness is coming from a place of authenticity, a place of courage, and a desire to uh better not only the person that you're speaking with or or being kind to, but to better the world. So that's uh that's been on my mind as well.

Scott Allen:

Yeah. Well, and and I think I think there's a at times we create these false dichotomies in our heads, right? That that kindness is weakness or kindness is soft, right? As as LinkedIn would say, it's it's strategic, not soft.

Jon Macaskill:

Yeah.

Scott Allen:

I forget who it was. There was a that's who but you know, yeah.

Jon Macaskill:

It was a gangster movie in the day. I think it was something to the effect of uh, you know, don't don't mistake my kindness for weakness. Yep. And I've used that line uh when I was in charge of a of a unit overseas. Um you know, I was I was kind to to some guys, and then they started running all over me. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Don't mistake my kindness for weakness. And I ended up having to hammer them. I won't go into details about what they did, but I I have to hammer them. But immediately after that, they saw that you could be kind and yep um hold people accountable at the same time. There's not there's not a difference there.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, there's there's a there's a both and, right? I mean, it does not mean that I that I need to avoid conflict. It does not mean that I am not going to hold others accountable. Exactly. Um, I think that's and again, sometimes we kind of have these false dichotomies, and I love those leaders I come across that can live in that both and world, yeah. Polarities at times and see kind of the tensions that we're navigating, because it doesn't have to be that. But I love the fact that you brought the example down to an exam, you know, a situation your daughter would recognize immediately.

Jon Macaskill:

It's a skill. It's a skill. Yeah, right. It's absolutely and you know, I I when I posted this on LinkedIn yesterday, somebody said, you know, why is this on LinkedIn? This has nothing to do with business or professionalism. I said, it absolutely does. Wow. Because if you're a leader within a team, and I say within a team, not of a team, yeah. I say that intentionally, because I do believe the leader is part of the team and should be doing everything that he asks he or she asks his team to do. They are going to have to be kind and tell people, hey buddy, you missed the mark on this. Yeah. And that's going to help them to improve. Whereas being nice is when I say, Hey bud, good job, good job. And then years down the road, that person finds out that they were not, in fact, doing a good job. Yep. And that's when they get fired. Yep. When if they if the leader had been kind, that person could have been mentored and improved and you know gone to have a very successful career instead of the short term being nice. So being nice feels good in the moment. Being kind is uh longer lasting.

Scott Allen:

Well, okay, so I grew up in Minnesota, and there's this there's this thing called Minnesota nice. It's a cultural, here's here's how Wikipedia, it's like literally a Wikipedia page, Jon. Wow, um, it's a cultural stereotype applied to the behavior of people from the U.S. state of Minnesota. Implying residents are usually courteous, reserved, and mild-mannered compared to people from other states. It it uh implies polite friendliness, an aversion to open confrontation, a tendency toward understatement, a disinclination to make a direct fuss or standout, apparent emotional restraint, and self-deprecation.

Jon Macaskill:

So must have something to do with uh proximity to Canada. Exactly.

Scott Allen:

Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

Jon Macaskill:

And and for your Canadian audience, I love my Canadian brothers and sisters, just to be clear.

Scott Allen:

100%, 100%. But it's hilarious because my daughter, she's learning to drive. So, Jon, we've been we've been driving around our neighborhood, and and my daughter keeps saying, sorry, sorry, please stop saying you're sorry. You're learning, you're doing awesome. You are killing it right now. Don't say you're sorry, just move a little over to the left, please.

Jon Macaskill:

That's great. Oh, I have that to look forward to.

Scott Allen:

That's uh it's a simulator for them to learn to drive, and it's a simulator for you to practice emotional intelligence, right?

Jon Macaskill:

Oh my gosh.

Scott Allen:

Just remember you're both learning.

Jon Macaskill:

Yeah, I'll have to meditate very deeply before I go into the car with my kids. Although by then, who knows? Maybe we'll have all self-driving cars. We'll see.

Scott Allen:

Yesterday we were, we were, we were we were going on our first big street. So we waited till there are no cars, and I said, Okay, so go ahead and and and move out into the street. And she drove just straight ahead. So literally at this point, Jon, the car is straddling one, two lanes, right?

Jon Macaskill:

Oh wow.

Scott Allen:

So I just looked at her calmly and I was like, okay, let's go in reverse.

Jon Macaskill:

Go back to the stop sign.

Scott Allen:

Now turn the wheel hard and let's take a ride.

Jon Macaskill:

Oh, that's rich, man.

Scott Allen:

Oh, I was winning.

Jon Macaskill:

Yeah.

unknown:

Right.

Scott Allen:

Oh. Well, I think it's a really, really interesting conversation and interesting distinction, right? And and just even helping people understand because again, the the woman on the plane, where I could have, I could have kind of experienced that as confrontational or agitating, but I I kind of and I think mindfulness can do this as well. I think as I'm observing whatever's coming up, I think there's a really nice opportunity. It it can spark curiosity if you're open.

Jon Macaskill:

Oh, right. And curiosity is one of the greatest things for that compassion and empathy is understanding where somebody's coming from.

Scott Allen:

Yep.

Jon Macaskill:

Um, and I think you handle that spectacularly. Uh you definitely could have taken offense to that. I mean, whether you're a Republican or not.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, it's just I was like, wow.

Jon Macaskill:

It's like uh, so I drive a big truck and uh and I'm military and I practice meditation. So when I tell people I practice meditation, they're like, oh, you're a liberal, you're a Democrat. Not exactly. And And uh when I drive my truck and I'm a veteran and I have my weapons, they say, Oh, you're a Republican. Not exactly. Really, I I vote, I never vote down the line on anything. I vote uh on an issue and how somebody stands on particular issues. Um and I I like to think of myself as middle of the road. And I know people will accuse me all the time. They're like, oh, if you're middle of the road, you're not picking a side that's weak. Yep. Well, uh, I would rather not pick a side and join the two sides than pick a side and divide us. So I have a different opinion of what middle of the road. But it is always funny to see the natural assumption hey, you drop a big truck, you must be a Republican. Oh, you meditate, you must be a Democrat. And yeah, you know, here I am. I'm wearing a military hat, camouflage, but then I have the meditating special operator behind me. So I guess I'm an interesting dichotomy in it of myself.

Scott Allen:

You are a complex character. I love it. I love it. But I think again, I mean, it's it's false dichotomies. Pick a side. I mean, false, just absolutely false in this world. I mean, it's um I don't think it has to be that way. And so I love the fact that you are grounded enough in your own kind of being that you can say, no, this is actually who I am. This is where I where I stand, and this is why. If you disagree, that's okay. I'd like to learn why. I mean, that's interesting. Um, but it it's just, you know, again, that tribalism, I think, also then well, regardless of your political affiliation, it's toxic on both sides. It can be toxic on both sides. For sure. And I think that again is part of that division. It's just a different area of that corporation called divisiveness, or you know, uh, it's it's a it's it is a corporation, right? I mean, multi-making billions, yeah, billions and billions and billions, right?

Jon Macaskill:

Easily.

Scott Allen:

Well, okay, so as we begin to wind down our time together, I I think I always ask, you know, what guests have been listening to, reading, streaming. You mentioned one book and and uh and a uh uh show on Apple that I will put a link to for sure. Um but what else has caught your attention recently? What what might listeners be interested in?

Jon Macaskill:

Yeah, I'm I'm really getting I'm a mental health advocate. Um, and I like to call it mental maintenance or mental fitness. Yes. Um just so it has less of that stigma, because as soon as you say mental health, a lot of people think mental sickness. Yep. Um, but just like a car, we need to maintain our bodies, we need to maintain our our brains. Yep. And um yeah. And so I'm I'm tinkering constantly with different mental health modalities. Uh, you know, meditation is a big one to me, clearly. Uh I like journaling. And uh I think these are some things that we could all benefit from doing more of. Uh right now, you know, one one thing that has gotten uh very interesting to me is longevity. Yes. And and I'm reading Peter Artia's book, Outlive. And uh it's really fascinating about, you know, we've increased lifespan, but we haven't increased health span as much as we should. Yep. And his book is all about how to increase both. Uh really fascinating. He talks about this, uh, it's it's a it's a myth or legend of one one guy who prayed to the gods and asked for eternal life, but he did not ask for eternal youth. So he got the eternal life, but his body aged just like everybody else's. So after the time that he would have died, it continued aging and decaying. And that's what it seems like a lot of us are doing is we're we've extended our lives, like you talked about before. You know, the the lifespan used to be 67 or something, and now we're living into our 90s sometimes or even longer. But is our health span equivalent? I mean, do you really want to live to 90 if you only have 67 years of of valuable life? I don't know. No, so yeah, interesting read. So no outlive by Peter Atia.

Scott Allen:

Uh I love it. There's a guy, there's a guy at Harvard, his name is David Sinclair. And so I'm just gonna mention this for listeners also. But Sinclair is also a longevity scholar and has a lab at Harvard. He's a geneticist. And he wrote a book called Lifespan. And he kind of nicely makes that distinction as well. But there's a podcast also by Sinclair called Lifespan. And I think it's page seven of the book. He says something to the effect of the longevity research is where cancer was in the 60s, but by all accounts, this will be easier than cancer. So I mean, he, you know, they're actively working to cure death, and you get into that's a whole nother hour for us of conversation about you know, every institution that makes up being a human being, you know, marriage till death to your part. Well, I love you, but you know, that's a long time, honey. Um, you know, everything changes, right? So it's just so interesting. But I love that. Peter Atia, okay. And um, and then also for listeners, if you're interested in that topic and the nuances of it, because you can get into religious, ethical, oh yeah, you can get into so many fascinating nooks and crannies. But the book is lifespan, and um billions and billions of dollars are being invested in that space right now, that longevity space. Fascinating stuff. Wow. Jon, we'll do it again, sir. I really, really appreciate your time today. Thanks for watching.

Jon Macaskill:

Fascinating conversation. Thanks, Scott.

Scott Allen:

Yes, and for listeners, I'm gonna put a bunch of links so that you can get in touch with Jon. You can follow him on LinkedIn. He is a thought leader in that space and outside of that space. And so uh gonna put a bunch of links in the show notes so you'll have them there. And until next time, be well, sir.

Jon Macaskill:

And you too, brother. Take care.

Scott Allen:

Of course, I need to thank Jon for his service and for just a wonderful conversation. So fun to connect, not a lot of an agenda there, but just an opportunity for the two of us to build a little bit of a relationship, explore a couple topics, and I have a lot of links in the show notes for you to learn more about Jon. He is an incredible speaker, and you know what? I think it would be wise if you have an event to tap him to participate. Thank you so much, Jon, and thanks to all of you for listening. Have a great day, everyone. Be well. Bye bye.