Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott J. Allen, Ph.D.

Profit With Purpose with Sunil Puri

• Scott J. Allen • Season 1 • Episode 304

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Sunil Puri is a thought leader with over two decades of experience in leadership development, sustainability, and data analytics. Currently serving as the head of research and engagement at the Stewardship Asia Centre (SAC) in Singapore.

A  Few Quotes From This Episode

  • "Most leadership decisions today are not either/or. They are both/and."
  • “Doing well by doing good. If it's doing well and doing good, then doing good becomes an afterthought.”

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

  • The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. 

About  Scott J. Allen

My Approach to Hosting

  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.



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Scott Allen:

Okay, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world. Today I have Dr. Sunil Puri, and he is a thought leader with over two decades of experience in leadership development, sustainability, and data analytics. What a powerful combo. Currently serving as the head of research and engagement at the Stewardship Asia Center in Singapore. Now, sir, I am so excited for this conversation today. I know that we we have a general idea of where we're going to go, but uh maybe you can share a little bit more with listeners about you. What's maybe something that you want them to know about your background, and then we'll jump into the dialogue.

Sunil Puri:

Well, thanks for the opportunity, Scott, and thanks for inviting me to this conversation. Uh, let me start on a fun note. Uh, you introduced me as Dr. Sunil Puri. I am not a doctor. Uh-huh. Um, I started my PhD thrice, though. So uh gave it a good shot, uh, but I realized I didn't have the resilience and the energy to power through uh five to seven years of work. So I decided an easier route. So I'm a researcher, I am a quasi-academic, uh, I like to study organizations uh around uh what makes some organizations do better than the others, what makes some leaders and boards do better than the others. Uh as for my background, I grew up mainly in India, as you can guess from my accent, uh very Indian accent. Um, most of my schooling and early work life was in India. Uh, worked in the US for a while in Washington, D.C. uh with a think tank. And then now in Singapore for a few years, uh, you know, working uh with the with the advocacy group and think tank that drive these drives the stewardship sustainability agenda. So uh, you know, I have a wife at home and a 16-year-old boy with who is a handful.

Scott Allen:

Well, okay, a couple things. You use the word thrice. So in my book, you're a you're a PhD for sure. That's that's PhD level. Uh that's awesome. And and I too, uh, we have uh uh twin girls that are 15 and a son who's 17. So we're in a similar space of of trying to lead as parents. So we have that in common as well. Well, okay, so sustainability is a passion. I know that governance is a passion as well, and I know that you're bringing this perspective of some of this work in Asia. And so um, what are some things on your radar right now? What are you seeing? What should people know about uh those topics based on what you're observing?

Sunil Puri:

So, uh Scott, we are living in we are living in interesting times. And interesting is an interesting word to use here. Uh, you know, the context around us is changing. Uh, you know, there's a lot of push and pull that senior leaders are facing in the times that they are operating in. And um, what I hear from CEOs and boards, I do a fair amount of work at the board level and at the C-suite level. What I'm hearing from them is that increasingly they are having to operate in the polarity zone, if you will.

Scott Allen:

Yes.

Sunil Puri:

You know, so most of their decisions are no longer either or, they're both and. So, you know, things like, hey, I need to focus on technology, but I need to humanize that. You know, I need to think about compassion and empathy as well with my employees. I need to focus on uh driving profitability. And I can tell you, Scott, uh uh, you know, CEOs are under huge pressure at this point to drive the profitability agenda. But as they do that, there is an equal pressure to think about um, you know, wellness, mental wellness, uh, physical wellness of people who work with them. Because guess what? If they don't do that, Gen Zs are not taking it sitting down. You know, they'll get quiet quitting, they'll they'll get into you know looking for other jobs and so on. And then I see this agenda around uh doing well by doing good. How can I generate profitability? How can I generate longevity of my business or whatever whatever I'm working on, but do it in a way that is quote unquote sustainable, not only from an environment and society standpoint, but also from financial sustainability standpoint. Now, that's an agenda that is under pressure because of the global narrative, but uh CEOs tell me that that is top of their mind. Yeah.

Scott Allen:

Well, I I love kind of where you started the conversation right now, which is just uh these these tensions or the polarities that that these individuals are having to navigate. I mean, more and more and more, I think, uh of leadership as a core activity of these individuals is managing these polarities and uh navigating those tensions that they're experiencing, where digitization and technology is a huge important piece of the conversation, and so is humanity. And so how do we balance those, right?

Sunil Puri:

Yeah, I'm not sure it's a balancing act, uh, you know, uh Scott. It's a both hand act. You know, how can I make money by solving a challenge? So we see CEOs who are most successful. And even if you look at the history, you know, organizations like uh uh, let's say Rockefeller group, they were most successful because they solved the challenge of their times, which was energy. You know, the challenge of our times is whether we like it or not, or whether some people like it or not, it is climate change, environment, social inequality, you know, geopolitics playing out, uh, you know, a lot of unrest with Generation Z and so on. How can I solve those problems in a way that can help me build my business, that can help me make uh my business successful, my business um having a longer life, if you will.

Scott Allen:

Yep. Well, and and thank you for that. Yeah, so the both and the how do we how do we achieve both or get closer to that space? It's not an either-or, but it's a both and, right?

Sunil Puri:

It's not a both hand. And you know, there are there are many organizations who are able to do that. It is just that, you know, uh organizations that decide to not do that are much more in volume, and therefore, you know, organizations that drive that agenda of doing well by doing good, they are kind of lost in the narrative. But uh one of the one of the one of the work my team does, you know, I I had a research at my center. One of the work my team does is uh elevate these stories, write about these stories, collect data sets, help these organizations celebrate, uh be celebrated, if you will, uh in the business community so that others can look at their examples and follow.

Scott Allen:

Tell us a couple stories. I mean, I I would really, really love to know kind of through your lens, um what are some organizations that are doing this work and doing this work in a noble way based on what you're finding?

Sunil Puri:

And there are many stories. I can give you a couple, you know. For instance, uh look at the Tata group in India. You know, it's a it's it's uh it's a you know, they were set up about over 150 years ago, multi-billion dollar organization. 66% of the share capital of all their entities uh sits with a trust that that focuses just on philanthropy, you know, and it's a it's a both of their businesses are hugely profitable. You know, they are into building uh cars, they own the brand Jaguar. Um, I'm sure you know that. Um, they are into financial services, they are into retail, they are into engineering, and everything and anything that you can think of. Now, out of every rupee or every dollar I earn, 66% of that goes towards making a difference to the society. Um, that's a large company example for you. Um for instance, another organization here in Singapore, headquartered in Singapore, is REACH 52. You know, it's an organization that is trying to solve for the healthcare inadequacy of healthcare of half the world population. And that's the reason they are called REACH 52. Wow. So because 52% of the people don't have access to healthcare. So they work with large pharma companies and give them access to the bottom of the pyramid. So they are operating in the Philippines, they are operating in uh, you know, Africa, they are operating in some parts of Asia, um, some parts of ASEAN, and so on. Um, another example. And these organizations are not, you know, they're not social, social enterprises. You know, they're not doing it from the goodness of their heart, they are doing it because they can make money. Another organization, you know, in um headquartered in India, um, called Ujala Cygnus. Now, this is an organization that provides free medical health care to uh the needy in India. And so they run hospitals and they have an interesting business model wherein, you know, um nobody who walks into their hospital uh is refused treatment because they don't have money. Um you know the government of India has a has a has kind of a scheme to uh help the uh bottom of the pyramid in the country, but because of poverty, because of illiteracy, people don't know about it. So they have a huge engine at the back end processing these claims under that scheme, but people are not refused medical treatment. Now, this company is a bitta positive. They run, I think, um 15 or 20 hospitals across the country. Uh, it's an Abitta positive company. So they're not doing it out of the goodness of their heart. They are doing it because there is a business model that can drive profitability and solve the world's problems. And there are plenty of examples that we've documented uh over the past few years, both large cap and small cap.

Scott Allen:

Wow. And and so I mean, I just I love the thinking of that because I think um at times our our minds go to that either or so readily, it seems to me, as human beings. And that mind that can go to the both end, I think for me, it's just a it's a beautiful way of I I I go to like a Patagonia, maybe that might be another absolutely yeah, another example where uh we can um uh I think in your phrasing, do well by doing good. And so a wildly successful organization, but also, you know, whether it's the in the United States, the Black Friday proceeds go to the environment. I mean, we can be an organization or a B corporation that is obviously uh contributing to society as well.

Sunil Puri:

Absolutely, and their don't buy this jacket campaign, I think a few years ago on a Black Friday sale day uh is hugely popular. So uh I think Patagonia is doing great work uh in this direction, and so are many other companies like the Ayala Group in the Philippines, for instance, they are doing good work. The Faber Castle in Europe, they uh you know they they planted hundreds and thousands of trees in Brazil to um to source sustainable wood many years ago, decades ago. And now every pencil that they make is made out of sustainable wood. You know, uh so there are plenty of examples around us. And um, I think the the the phrasing of doing well by doing good is extremely critical because it's doing well by doing good, not doing well and doing good. Because then doing good becomes an afterthought, doing good becomes a CSR, doing good becomes charity, doing good becomes philanthropy philanthropy. Our thinking is, or my thinking is that you know, you need to, you can't tell businesses to not make money. You know, um, you'll be butchered by our shareholders. Businesses must make money, make tons of money, but doing do it by solving a problem that humanities faces.

Scott Allen:

Yeah. Well, I I've followed for years, I think a couple of his books are back here, Peter Diamondis. And he'll one phrase that he uses sometimes is the world's biggest challenges are some of the world's biggest opportunities, right? That that uh if if we can solve for some of these, um again, doing well by doing good is baked in.

Sunil Puri:

Absolutely. Absolutely, completely agree with that. You know, uh I think there's there's a ton of money to be made. Um I remember WEF came up with a data that there are $10.1 trillion worth of opportunities every year till 2030. And this data is, I think, a few years old. So $10.1 trillion worth of business opportunities in the in in the environment, climate, social inequality space. So there's a lot, there's a ton of money to be made. We just need to think creatively uh how we can unlock uh a business model wherein we can drive profitability in that direction.

Scott Allen:

So I'm just I'm really, really intrigued right now. What are some opportunities that you see? You know, from your purview, look, if someone could figure out X or someone could figure out Y, or these are some organizations working some of those puzzles, uh, what are some of those opportunities that you see?

Sunil Puri:

So huge opportunities, uh Scott, and some some off the top of my mind are what are the biggest problems at this point? You know, the biggest problems are uh sustainable housing, uh, because there are so many people moving because of climate change and so on. There's a problem, huge problem of food security. Can I come up with a business model wherein I can, let's say, um uh grow food uh in regenerative farms, uh, you know, and if the food is liked or if the snack is liked, and therefore, you know, there's more business for the farmers who are driving uh uh who are who are using regenerative farming, and therefore the cycle, it's an upward spiral. Can I solve that problem? Can I solve the problem of climate change? Huge, huge, I mean the whole the entire world is running after that, but huge issue in this part of the world, you know. Go to cities like uh Dhaka, like Delhi, uh, you know, um uh even even Mumbai uh and so on. Uh huge problem in terms of quality of air. Can I do something about that? Can I can I can I come up with some technology? The technology that are technologies that are being talked about are kind of sort of extremely expensive and kind of sort of impractical, if you will. Can I think of a bit better local solution uh to some of these challenges? Problem of cybersecurity, you know, uh, and and and and there are a ton of organizations that are trying to solve for that, you know. Um, can I do something uh something uh interesting in that space? Can I do something interesting in giving access to the bottom of the pyramid for healthcare, for technology, for internet, and so on. So there are a ton of problems around us and a ton of opportunities around us uh waiting to be solved.

Scott Allen:

Yeah. Well, so how do you see governance? I know that that's an area of passion for you. Talk a little bit about how governance can be a part of the solution, or um uh how is it related to the conversation?

Sunil Puri:

So, you know, Scott, why are why do we see so few organizations going on that path? Because uh, you know, at the end of the day, organizations are funded by investors, are invested by shareholders, and therefore they need to have shareholders on their side, investors on their side to drive the direction of doing well by doing good. Now, when I look at when I connect that with how can a CEO drive that action, the CEO needs the uh support of the board. And boards uh, you know, usually they are uh uh, you know, if it's a listed company, they may be representative of the largest shareholders, or they may have uh, you know, they may be executive directors who run the business and so on. Now, and that is an area I like to study. How can boards, which is the senior most representative group in any organization, influence this journey of organizations to curate business models that are doing well by doing good? Not only churning dollars for the shareholders, not only churning returns for the key investors, but can the boards intervene to drive that agenda? Now they can do it in a couple of ways. They can do it by um supporting a strategy of the organization that is in the doing well by doing good space, by supporting that vision, by hiring, you know, one of the key jobs that a board does is hiring the right man or the right woman to run the organization. Can they be more um deliberate in selecting people who are uh more driven by this doing well by doing good agenda? When they do capital allocation, can they can they keep aside funds to drive uh projects that are doing well by doing good, sustainability projects? When they look at incentive schemes, can they look at in a way that they are incenting not only CEOs but their leadership teams to drive sustainability, you know, solve the social inequality problem and so on. And that's how governance gets intertwined with this doing well by doing good agenda. I believe that boards um they have an amazing amount of muscle. It is just that uh boards, for whatever it's worth, do not want to flex that muscle. Um, not only here in Asia, but I I hear the same stories when I look at organizations globally. Boards typically like to sit on the fence uh and uh you know, uh not lean in and uh take hard and courageous decisions.

Scott Allen:

Why do you think that is? What what uh what comes to mind for you uh when you think about that dynamic? I mean, uh I think it was strategy and vision, hiring uh C C level executives that are that that value what what we value, uh providing incentives. There was a fourth that I just lost in my capital allocation. Okay, allocation. Uh capital allocation. Uh, but you're seeing that many of them are kind of sitting on the fence. And so what um what is that? What do you think?

Sunil Puri:

So, you know, uh uh Scott, boards uh it's a very close-knit community. So, and I can give you the examples from this part of the world. Obviously, I don't uh I haven't studied boards in the US and Europe, I can tell you about Asia and Pacific. It's a very tight-knit uh community, and uh a lot of people call it an old boys club because you know, uh literally like people are old, and literally there is equity on having either white hair and no hair or no hair. Uh and uh and therefore, you know, uh usually when companies bring independent directors on board, these are friends and friends of friends. While there is every organization, every board is supposed to have a process, and there's a nominating committee that looks at who should come in as an independent director. Usually there is very little thought given to it.

Scott Allen:

Yeah.

Sunil Puri:

And therefore, you know, the chairperson uh or the or the chair chairman comes CEO has a huge leverage in terms of bringing whoever he or she uh desires to bring. Usually it is, hey, you know, uh, do you know this person? Uh I think he's a good guy, let's bring him on board. Couple that with very little effort in evaluating the performance of the board, in evaluating the skills inventory of the board. And if you if you combine the two, um, this is a cocktail that is kind of sort of playing out, and this is the cocktail that is extremely dangerous. So you have a lot of old people, uh, and I'm not young either, so you know, it's strange that comes from me. You have a bunch of uh old people running businesses that are trying to solve the current day problems. And um, the other, the other, the other thing I see is that, you know, again, when you look at the diversity at the boards, and I'm not only talking about gender diversity, usually see it dominated by chartered accountants and lawyers. So we need a little more diversity. We need to open up the boards a little to multi-generations because the problems we are trying to solve for are the problems of the current day. And um also we need boards who are slightly more risk-taking. And again, I need to, I need to I need to put a caveat there that you know, um, there are a ton of regulations and compliance requirements that the boards need to work in. The corporate governance codes and in multiple jurisdictions are fairly tight. So while they have to walk the tight rope, they need to be a little more courageous, a little more open, a little more welcoming, and a little more inclusive in how they curate these boards.

Scott Allen:

Yeah. Well, and they may not even have been exposed to the doing well by doing good mindset. Am I accurate in saying that? That maybe they they were wildly successful in their own right, but maybe in their time of success, it wasn't necessarily a mindset that both uh the both and mindset that um drove their work. So their level of understanding about it may be limited, just even as a thing.

Sunil Puri:

Yeah, no, that's that that's true. Uh, interestingly, Scott, so we we we did a research last year uh where we collected data sets from 11 countries. We interviewed and surveyed about 700 board directors across uh Asia and Pacific, right from India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka in South Asia, all the way till Australia, Japan, and uh New Zealand and Pacific and Singapore, Malaysia, and between, and a bunch of other countries in between. So when we asked them uh about uh uh their view on doing well by doing good, most of the board directors kind of concurred that, hey, you know, no, this is obvious. You know, we need to we need to solve this challenge, we need to solve these problems and so on. But then what are you doing to solve that problem? We'd got very little on that agenda. So there's a lot of chatter that we see uh in media or otherwise around, hey, you know, the boards need to make a difference, uh, organizations need to make a difference. While there's a lot of chatter, the problem is there is a lot of chatter, you know, in chatter. So while there's a lot of talk, there's very little action. And then we try to identify how are boards spending time. So boards are spending the bulk of their time in looking at historical financial data, looking at risk and compliance and audits, and looking at uh you know, capital allocation. These, in my mind, are fundamental fiduciary supervisory responsibilities. They are not spending enough time on what I call in my research new frontier responsibilities, like let's talk about sustainability, let's talk about leadership, let's talk about culture, let's talk about artificial intelligence, let's talk about cybersecurity. So the boards are spending very little time. And when we ask them why, they tell us that they are under huge pressure from the shareholders to spend as much time as they can on compliance and fiduciary responsibilities. Nobody wants to get in trouble at the end of the day, right?

Scott Allen:

Yeah, but it's also probably their comfort zone, I would imagine. Yeah. Like that's what they know. Uh ideating uh in an in an industry that maybe they have less familiarity with. So it would seem to me at least part of the conversation might be that that's home for them.

Sunil Puri:

True, that's home for them. And you know, uh, and and that's been home for them for many years. And and uh, you know, the funny part is that a lot of boards are not even open to learning, you know, because remember, these are people who are uh, you know, my age plus 20 years, so or your age plus 30 years. And these are people who have huge egos, they've been CEOs uh in the 80s or 90s, and uh, you know, uh they are not happy to sit down and learn. And and and Scott, I'm generalizing here. So I'm stereotyping here, I'm generalizing here, but it's just so hard to get them in the room and tell them, hey, you need to uh you need to wake up to the realities of the world today. It's so hard. And that's the battle that uh you know um uh we we we end up fighting when we work with these boards. How do we energize them? How do we tell them what is the right thing to do? How do we motivate them?

Scott Allen:

Yeah, well, and that's that's it would seem to me like the million-dollar question is how do we influence them to make this a priority? How do we motivate? How do we inspire, mobilize? And and to your point, I think there's probably a lot of agreement that that, yeah, this is important, but then to your point, uh there's very, very little action, and how do we inspire that action? Any any thoughts on that front? Have you any indicators, any wins that you can report when it comes to that conversation? Because that's the heart of leadership, right? That's the heart of leadership.

Sunil Puri:

That's the heart of leadership, and that's that's the puzzle that we are trying to solve for, Scott, here in Stewardship Asia Center. We are a small think tank set up by Tamasek Holdings. Tamasek is the um uh kind of sovereign investment fund here in uh Singapore. They set us up about 10 years ago to help leaders, both you know, government and private sector leaders, uh, leaders across multiple levels, uh, mid-level, C-suite boards, help them ignite their what we call steward leadership, which is the genuine desire and persistence to create a collective better future. We believe that you know, incentives, taxes, they are necessary, but they are not sufficient to make the world a better place. It needs to come from another space. And that's the space that we call steward leadership, which is a combination of values and purpose. Now we need to we need to work with these boards and C-suite executives and ignite some values, values such as long-term thinking. You know, how can I think beyond quarters, uh quarter on quarter? Uh, values such as ownership mentality. If somebody has to solve the sustainability problem, it is me as a board director, me as a CEO, my organization, my board, uh, maybe my country. We can't look at uh global uh, you know, um global uh organizations to help us solve, or we can't just look at the governments to solve that problem of sustainability. We also need to be more um open about what we call creative resilience, you know, because we need to innovate, we need to create better business models. Uh and and and and the value, the fourth value is that of interdependence. How do I understand that, you know, when I give more, I get more? And that's the model that a lot of large organizations that have been hugely successful known for. Setting up cities, setting up um, you know, opening schools, opening hospitals uh in their campus so that you know the employees are happy because when I give more, guess what? I get more. And the fifth value, then the fifth value that we espouse is that of what we call ethical integrity. How do I do it in a way that not only ticks the boxes in terms of being above law, but being the right thing to do? Ethics and integrity. So, you know, boards that are able to get that are are boards that do well. Now, if if somebody was to ask me a formula around how to do that, I would say get the right chair. If you have the right chair who is motivated by doing well, by doing good, right chair who believes in long-term thinking, interdependence, uh, you know, ownership mentality, ethical integrity, and innovation, he or she will steer the board in the right direction. Now, um, and the problem is, you know, uh it's a very close-knit community. So getting, and there are, and and to be fair, there are some rock star chairs that I have interviewed or met uh in my research. And um, you know, these are these are people who are trying to drive an action, trying to nudge their CEOs, even arm twist their CEOs to do to do well by doing good.

Scott Allen:

Yeah. Last question, I just because I want to dive a little bit deeper, but in creative resilience, would you talk a little bit about creative resilience? I like that phrasing. I've never heard that phrasing before, but how are you thinking about that?

Sunil Puri:

So um, doing well by doing good is a very difficult journey, uh, Scott, as you can imagine. If I'm a if I'm a if I'm a business leader um and I go to my uh board or I go to my shareholders and tell them, hey, you know, I want to spend a billion dollars uh solving the um uh you know healthcare issue uh in my in my community. You know, uh, and a lot of these investors, a lot of these shareholders may not agree to that. So what we mean by creative resilience is one, having the resilience to take those knocks, you know, hear a no 200 times and still think about the agenda that you are pursuing. And we add the word creative to that because we need to do it in an innovative way. Because if I go to my board and I go to my shareholders and tell them, hey, guess what? There is a business model tweak that we can make such that I we can we can increase the shareholder returns by X percent and also be known for being an organization that is solving a solving an existential crisis. That is the language that uh your shareholders or boards will understand. And that in my mind is a beautiful example of creative resilience.

Scott Allen:

Well, and there is that word and again, right? And we can also accomplish this.

Sunil Puri:

I know, and uh yeah, and and a lot of a lot of there are to be fair, you know, there are there are a lot of well-meaning CEOs, there are a lot of well-meaning organizations. I think they are doing their bit. It is just that we don't have enough.

Scott Allen:

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I I I I've said it on the podcast a couple times, and I don't know if I've said it recently, but you know, how do we as humans uh evolve to a place where we can think long term, we can uh think in that both end from a natural place. Um, you know, we we do see that interdependence that exists. And I mean it's it's it seems like it's a it's a human condition. It's it's a challenge for us as humans to really prioritize those. The fact that you are out there in the world. World, pushing, pulling, motivating, inspiring, engaging, mobilizing? I have great respect. I really do. And trying to better understand how we do that work. And again, um, doing well by doing good. Um, sir, I always any well, real quick before I wind down, anything else you want to say for to listeners so that they um is there anything that I haven't asked you that you think is critical to this conversation that uh people I'll put some links in the show notes so people can learn more about you and the organization. But uh anything that stands out for you that I've missed? Obviously there's a lot, but yeah, obviously there's a lot.

Sunil Puri:

I would I I would I would again uh re-emphasize on doing well and doing good versus doing well by doing good. Organizations that embrace doing well by doing good, where doing good is not an afterthought, are organizations that are able to drive profitability and uh be successful for a much longer period. So doing well by doing good is the mantra that I would uh love to leave uh our listeners with.

Scott Allen:

Okay. Doing well by doing good. I always close out these conversations with uh a question and it's uh pretty basic. But what what's caught your attention in recent times? What have you been listening to or streaming or reading? Um, it might have something to do with what we've just discussed. It may have nothing to do with what we've just discussed, but what might listeners be interested in that's caught your attention?

Sunil Puri:

Ah, that's an interesting one. So if I think about the uh books on my bedside, uh Scott, as of now, uh one of the books I'm reading reading is uh so there's one book that I'm reading and the and another book that is kind of I read it on a loop. So I finish it and I read it again, I finish it and read it again, and I've been doing that for a few years now. So the book that I've read I'm reading now is uh called Growing the Pie uh by uh by Alex Edmonds. So he talks about um the philosophy that we were discussing about that, you know, hey, the pie is much bigger. We just need to make sure that you know we are trying to solve for a big problem and there's money to be made for everyone. It's a beautiful book. I would recommend uh you to read it if you have time, growing the pie, Alex Edmonds. And the book that I read on a loop, uh Scott, is called uh Autobiography of a Yogi. Have you heard of that book? I haven't, no. It's by Yogananda Paramahansa, and uh it's a fairly well-known book. A lot of CEOs uh uh I uh you know, I I I remember reading Steve Jobs uh was a big fan of Yogananda Paramahansa, and um so were a bunch of other CEOs. So it's called Autobiography of a Yogi. It talks about the need for inner journey for every individual. Wow, it talks about the fact that individuals and and and remember this was written about 80 or 90 years ago, I think in the 1940s or thereabout. And um, what he talks about is the need for us to focus less on religion, more on spirituality, less on dogmas, more on uh you know our inner growth, our inner spiritual growth. So he talks about yoga, he talks about uh spirituality, he talks about um, you know, in the inner journey that he undertook as a as an ascetic or as a saint uh during his lifetime. So again, a book that I would hugely recommend. And it's a book that is uh, I would say not the easiest one to read, uh, because it jumps from one place to the other. And that's the reason I like to keep reading it um on a loop, literally.

Scott Allen:

Oh, that's wonderful. I've I've never come across a guest who said that, that it's just reading on a loop. And I imagine as you're looping around, it's there's different meanings every time as you read read it.

Sunil Puri:

Absolutely, different meanings and different aspects that I see. So I would recommend uh to the listeners uh consider reading autobiography of a yogi by Yogananda Paramahansa.

Scott Allen:

Okay, I will put links in the show notes so that people can access those. Uh, sir, I appreciate your time today. Thank you so much. Thanks for the good work you're doing in the world, trying to help us understand literally some of the biggest questions.

Sunil Puri:

Thanks for inviting me, Scott. It's a pleasure.

Scott Allen:

Well, be well. Take care. Thank you. I don't have a ton to say here. I mean, doing well by doing good. I think maybe I messed that up a couple times in the episode, but I'm gonna repeat it one more time. Doing well by doing good. A wonderful mantra, a wonderful way to approach the work. And I am so thankful for that conversation. And I'm thankful for all of you. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world. As always, gosh, it's been five plus years now. I very, very much appreciate you. Take care, all. Bye bye.