Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott J. Allen, Ph.D.

Leadership at the Crossroads with Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei

• Scott J. Allen • Season 1 • Episode 303

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Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei is Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of The American Chamber of Commerce (AmCham) in Singapore — the largest and the most active international business association in Singapore and Southeast Asia representing over 650 companies. Hsien is also Adjunct Associate Professor at the National University of Singapore Saw Swee Hock School of Public Health, member of the Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg School of Public Health’s Advisory Board, Vice President of the Precision Public Health Asia Society, board member and fundraising committee chair of TalentTrust, board committee member of SATA CommHealth and advisory committee member at the Singapore University of Social Sciences School of Business.

A  Quote From This Episode

  • "The truth is Singapore itself is a very small market…And yet its influence and its ability to do more for the rest of the world is really impressive.”

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

  • The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. 

About  Scott J. Allen

My Approach to Hosting

  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.



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Scott Allen:

Okay, everybody. Welcome to Fronesis, the podcast. Practical wisdom for leaders. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world. Today I'm honored. I have Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei, and she is the CEO of the American Chamber of Commerce in Singapore. She has a background in a degree in biology, a degree in epidemiology. I'm excited for us to kind of explore even your pathway to the position that you're in right now, which is exciting. Before we jump in, maybe let's talk a little bit about the American Chamber of Commerce in Singapore so that listeners have a context for what you're doing, because I find it fascinating.

Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei :

Thank you so much, Scott. I really appreciate having the chance to be here with you and also to tell people about the American Chamber of Commerce, because definitely I think in the United States at least, we're all very familiar with our local chambers of commerce that look after businesses on Main Street and in town, making sure that they are successful and that the local population and tourists get to know them. It's not that much different, actually, in Singapore, what a Chamber of Commerce does, except that we have more of an international bent. So we look after American businesses in Singapore and to some extent and the international businesses that are here as well, because what we're trying to do is help them succeed in a very global, turbulent environment by advocating for them, by providing a platform for them to share their thought leadership, by building a community where people can do business together, and we support the wider community here in Singapore by doing great work like CSR and philanthropy, volunteering, and all of that. So Chamber of Commerce to me is all about community. And it happens to be focused on business. That's why the name commerce, on the other hand, it is a place where people from all walks of life, across all levels, across all functions, can find a place, can meet new people, can grow, can learn new things, and of course, make sure that they themselves thrive as business leaders and that their businesses thrive along with them.

Scott Allen:

Well, okay, now. And so how did you move from career in STEM to a career in uh chamber of commerces?

Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei :

Yeah, it seems like nobody wakes up, okay? Nobody grows up and going, oh, I want to be a leader of a chamber of commerce, right? I mean, I think many of us probably didn't engage much with chambers, especially if you are in science, like you said. And so my passion is in public health. I maintain an active presence in the public health community community here in Singapore and in the US. On the other hand, I see it as actually all interconnected. I generally am the kind of person who does like to connect dots. And even if it's just inside my own head, it might be tangled up, but somehow it works. And so for me, a long, long time ago when I was going to graduate school, I deliberately chose to go to Hopkins in Baltimore because it was close to Washington, D.C. And so that synergy between public health and policy was where I was always really interested in.

Scott Allen:

Nice.

Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei :

And if I'd have stayed in the US and not moved overseas, I would like to think that I would personally be involved in some way in either the public sector as a scientist for the government, you know, local government, state, whichever, or maybe even in elected office. As it happens, my life took a different turn. But everything I've done has been aligned to my public health identity. And everything I've done is figuring out how what I do can enable others or to enable society to be healthier and happier. And so that's why I think the Chamber of Commerce role, as I kind of pivoted and did different things. I was always aligned to healthcare. I became interested in business. However, I think all of it is interlinked and it's up to people to help bring everyone together. And so I have the great fortune and honor to be at an organization that connects the public sector with the private sector and also has the opportunity to do good for society.

Scott Allen:

Well, and and so I have uh so much respect. And uh you are you are kind of quote unquote in it every day. I mean, I imagine you're navigating a number of different just tensions all day long, every day. Is that accurate?

Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei :

So, so I I you know, so I go get regular like reflexology massage. Every single therapist I ever have, they're like, wow, you're really stiff. And I'm like, well, I I'm really sorry, but I think I was born this way. So I think this tension and being tense is just my natural state. So it doesn't bother me as much as it gives me something to work with. So it's something that I constantly, it's it's it's kind of like, you know, a sounding board in a way where I think to myself, oh, if it if it's too easy, clearly we haven't been tackled tackling the biggest challenges, the most difficult things that need to be solved. So I don't like to coast. And so although I feel the tension all the time, I try to take advantage of it to do big things.

Scott Allen:

Oh, and that's awesome. And so, I mean, I think, well, talk about some of those tensions that you're consistently navigating as the CEO of the Chamber of Commerce. I can only imagine there's a number of different viewpoints and perspectives kind of coming at you all the time.

Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei :

Yeah, you got it. I think we people like to say right now that we're living in very turbulent times and how remember during the pandemic, the favorite word was unprecedented. I think that's rather silly because if anybody, if you read any history, if you read anybody's memoirs, you know that people had it hard all along. It's never been really easy for anybody.

Scott Allen:

Yes.

Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei :

However, we are living when and where we are living now. So there are many things that we are dealing with. Some of it's newly introduced, like this AI stuff, right? And so when I think about every day, I'm I I feel like I'm often asked to choose sides or people want to pick, put me on a side. Yeah. And I think as a leader, that can be very difficult because especially at a chamber, we are independent, we are nonpartisan. We I can't say that we're unbiased, because we obviously have a point of view, which is to help businesses succeed.

Scott Allen:

Yeah.

Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei :

So, you know, so that's that's our bias, is towards business, but not at the expense of others. The kind of tensions or sides that I often am thinking about every day and trying to be careful to be fair and represent our members well would be on things like am I pro-government or am I pro-business? By default, because of my role, I'm supposed to be pro-business, right? But we all know that in order for society to function well, we need strong regulations to protect consumers, to protect the environment and all of that. And so that's one thing that I often really have to sit down and think, right? So when a business comes with a particular issue or, you know, an entire sector, say, has uh, you know, feedback about the price of electricity, for example, how do I then go and advocate for them to the government and say, we need to do something about managing the price of electricity? What role does government have to play here? And how do we better understand the difficulties they're up against so that we provide this balance between business interests and government interests? So it's one thing I'm struggling with all the time. And then even internally, I'm always thinking for myself and my team, it's like, how do I look after their own individual interests at the same time protecting the organization's interests? And we're a nonprofit, which many people are like, oh, you're a nonprofit. Yet we represent corporate interests, right? And as a nonprofit, the culture can be quite different. And at least I feel this way because I came from a corporate environment. I think nonprofit, we tend to be a little bit, I don't know if this is right, but I feel that I'm a little bit softer. I don't know if that is actually the right thing because sometimes you have to still make tough decisions, you know, for the organization that is going to be tough for the individual. So that's another tension that I feel internally. Uh it's just every day. I mean, I don't like, we don't want to get into the politics of things, but because I'm in an organization that sometimes ends up dealing with geopolitics, people make a lot of assumptions about what side I am on. I'm an American living in Singapore. Am I on the US side? Am I on Singapore side? And I don't want to be facetious and be that type of person and says, I'm on everybody's side. I want everybody to succeed. That's just like naive, right? So those are the kinds of things I think probably is universal for a lot of business leaders in terms of how they have to think nowadays about what side am I on and how do I protect, you know, the main core strategic interests while at the same time making sure that I understand other people's point of view.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, and and in a in a um context at times where kind of nuance is it can be underappreciated. It can be, you know, if if you're on my team, you should be on my team for everything, always, right? And that's a hard place to be, always.

Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei :

I try to make people feel like I'm on their team. I like that. I like how you said team rather than side. Because if you feel like I'm on your team and I'm looking out for your best interest, sometimes I'm gonna have to probably do things you don't like. But I'm I have your best interests in mind. And this is the same thing with being a parent, right? Sometimes you're gonna have to ask your kids to do stuff they don't want to do. It's in your best interest. And so I do try to think of it that way. Uh, because at the end of the day, in a member-driven organization like Amcham, it can be a bit like order taking if you let it be. So people come to you and they demand that you do certain things and you say, okay, on it. And you just do whatever they want without thinking about it. I don't think that is a good service to anyone because you have experience and knowledge that they may not have, and you can give them feedback about what's the right approach and give them another perspective. Maybe it's not us giving it to them, it's the rest of our community that can come together to develop these different perspectives and to share. So uh yeah, I try not to be an order taker and I like this idea of being on your team rather than on your side.

Scott Allen:

Hmm. Hmm. Well, so what else are you seeing right now? What else are you navigating from from your seat in the world? What's on your radar?

Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei :

Well, a lot of what we do now really is on geopolitics. I think companies for, you know, companies and leaders now have to decide how vocal they want to be. I think we've seen this trend developing over the last, I don't know, 10 years thereabouts, where we want, we say we want, at least surveys, surveys tell us, right, that, hey, customers want you to have a point of view. They want you to have, you know, an idea of social justice. However, I think many companies have all often just decided to be more conservative on that front. We're now finding, at least from what when we learn from our member companies, is that you no longer can stay silent. At the very least, you need to speak up and protect your own self-interest. And by that I mean the organization's interests. And so that's something that I think we are helping to feed information into the wider community. So by doing such things as surveys, so that you have a general consensus and some data to back up your company's point of view. We are finding now that companies who have generally stayed under the radar in the past and leaders who have, you know, deter decided that they would let others within the organization handle this, they are now finding they have to have the right talking points. They have to have a point of view, they need to know what to say when they meet certain individuals, which maybe lot in the past they could have just said, oh, let's let's change the topic.

Scott Allen:

So, in in some ways, kind of coaching them or helping them understand that that is a necessity to have that point of view and be ready to share that point of view uh critical. Is that accurate?

Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei :

Yeah, there's just you just can't hide anymore, I don't think. And particularly because people's expectations are much higher in terms of communications. We have so many different channels of communications now, much of it which is online, that demand that you be articulate, that you be screen ready, that you know, we're on a podcast now. So that that expectation is way higher than it ever was before. So I think leaders now have a much more difficult job and spend a lot more time, or they should be spending a lot more time thinking about who they're communicating to and what they're actually going to communicate.

Scott Allen:

What else? What else are you seeing? What else are some things that are kind of bubbling up and getting to your radar as um critical for uh organizations, leaders to be thinking about to have on their radar?

Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei :

I'm suppressing the the desire to sigh because there's so much on people's plates, right? And especially for those. I I think the the there's a big um there there may be a difference, I should say, between those who are in multinational corporations versus those who are in the small and medium-sized enterprises, because the multinationals definitely face a lot of these cross-border challenges, right? Trying to figure out different regulations and all that. So we spent a lot of time talking about how does one part of the world impact another.

Scott Allen:

Yes.

Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei :

Right? So because Singapore really is a very cosmopolitan place, there's open trade, and Singapore has many different kinds of free trade agreements with different countries. They're a world leader in many of the innovation spaces. So I think we spent a lot of time figuring out how countries can partner together and how countries can have economic agreements that benefit their citizens. So the chamber does do quite a bit of work in that. On the, I think what probably needs to be talked about more are the challenges that small and medium-sized enterprises face in terms of even such things as operations, talent. Uh, these are issues, of course, that big companies face, but they have so many more, so much more resources to tap into. So if you're talking about, oh, you know, I need to hire talent and I have to figure out what I'm gonna do with all this AI, I think big companies tend to be able to manage it a bit better because they just have so much resources at hand. The small and medium-sized enterprises, I do worry about them because we're in Singapore, the government provides a lot of support for them. The thing is, people can offer you all sorts of things if you don't have time and you're just living day-to-day trying to service your customers. How do we take them to the next level? So that's something else that we think about quite a bit is how do we as a chamber bring people and ideas together so our members can be more efficient in terms of upskill, upscaling their business, right? Scaling their business, upskilling their employees, and also have a little fun while they're doing it. I I think uh that's a lot of what we think about too is how do we make business owners, business leaders, uh have an easier time managing their work and their team?

Scott Allen:

Yeah, because the complexities are, you know, again, you kind of joked about the unprecedented times, but in some ways, I mean, the these whether it's Gen AI or, you know, down the road superintelligence or some no one knows how this is all going to play out. And so for those small to mediums, as you said, uh the resources and the time and and even you know, many of them right now, at least on on my side of the world, as I'm working with those organizations, they're a little bit in a flutter. They're like, Well, we should be do something with AI. Well, you know, and but they don't have any idea like potentially what that would mean. Uh, and so, you know, there's some studies, at least in the US now, that a lot of these AI initiatives or early ones in some of these organizations are failing because they don't necessarily even know how to utilize the tool um or if it's the relevant tool for some of their needs, right? So I can totally empathize with that challenge of how do we help support these organizations? Such a critical, critical task.

Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei :

Well, and I find the whole AI conversation to be, like you said, sometimes it's a bit premature. There's still a lot of need in the world that does not require AI, or AI actually cannot help. So we think beyond our developed countries where we have access to, say, you know, I'm in public health, so I think a lot about access to healthcare. You know, I have a friend who invented a device to put the middle ear, the inner ear tube, you know, for middle ear infections. In in many of the developing countries, they don't have access to an operating theater. They don't have access to general anesthesia, which traditionally is needed to put these tubes into the kids' ears. Well, she invented a device that's kind of like a, you know, an ear piercing machine that's a little click gun that where you can put these tubes into kids' ears without anesthesia or an operating theater. The crazy thing is, you think you need AI for that. And so I have all these investors who are constantly like, let's have a conference talking about deep tech investment. What they really mean when they say deep tech is AI. And I'm like, there are so many things in this world that we need, like latrines in India. We still need to dig toilets in a lot of part of the part of the world. We need AI for this. Boy, it'd be so great if AI could dig me a toilet.

Scott Allen:

Digitize the toilet experience. Yeah.

Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei :

Hey, well, I mean, so you could say, okay, robots and yada, yada. So there's a lot of things about fresh water and those things where you can put sensors on them. So that is awesome. It's just that we get so caught up in this. Oh, AI is gonna take my job. I want also people to realize that there are many things in the world we need that AI cannot do for us, and we need to be a little bit more let's another favorite word, pragmatic.

Scott Allen:

You're gonna use all the buzzwords. I love it.

Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei :

Yeah, yeah. We can play tic-tac-toe.

Scott Allen:

Well, it uh so you said something that also made me. I almost had an image of Switzerland coming into my into my mind. I mean, it it seems that another complexity in Singapore is that you're you're at a little bit of a crossroads of the world. Wouldn't you agree?

Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei :

Exactly. Singapore has is actually a very well thought-through country. It's only 60 years old. So this year's celebrated 60 years of this country's existence. And the leaders are very planful. They try to look around corners and they're very open to learning. I know the different ministers are always looking out for opportunities to learn. So that's a really important lesson for us, right? In order to do big things, you have to be open to learning. And Singapore deliberately has set itself up as a hub. And so, any kind of hub, it could be an innovation hub, it could be a supply chain hub. And whatever it can do to be that hub to bring people together and to be able to help people spread and expand throughout the region and the world, that's by design. And so I think that's the reason why being in Singapore, either being in a business or being in a chamber of commerce, is really unique because you have many visitors who come through Singapore where you have the opportunity to engage and the opportunity to grow your business beyond a very small market. The truth is Singapore itself is a very small market. It just ticked over six million people in terms of population. It's a very small place. And yet its influence and its ability to do more for the rest of the world is really impressive. And so I'm really glad to be here.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, I mean, and just even a crossroads of uh, you know, China and the United States. Is that accurate?

Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei :

Yeah, I mean, it's another one of those situations where people are constantly asking, which whose side are you on? And obviously, I'm an American, I represent American business interests. I would like to be like, hey, let's be on the US side and remember remind them of all the wonderful things that the US has done for Singapore, but that's not the right way to do it, right? Singapore has its own needs, it has its own principles in the way they, you know, they provide um governance. And so we need to respect that. And it's not just because we come in here and open big companies and all those things that we can demand that Singapore do certain things. And and so being in Singapore, seeing how they operate is also a good lesson for business, right? So when people ask me from a business perspective, should they choose to do more in the United States, should they choose to do more in China? The truth is, what can I say, right? I can be biased, they know I'm biased already, but let's not be so obvious. That the we need to think about what are what are the needs of the business? What do their stakeholders slash shareholders want? And what is the right thing for them to do? And in that case, then it's up to us to be competitive and say, for what you want to accomplish, the United States can do that better for you. But in other cases, maybe it's the China market. I don't know.

Scott Allen:

Well, I I just have I have so much respect. I mean, I really, really do, because uh it it's you are you are in a in a very, very unique position of um as you as we've kind of talked about, just navigating uh multiple different kind of situations, perspectives, viewpoints, mindsets, and being a little bit of a crossroads for some of that, I I just really, really have great respect. I really do.

Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei :

I'm not actually the most flexible person. So if you're sitting out there and you're thinking, like, wow, she must be so flexible and open-minded. Actually, on almost every single one of those assessments that you do for your like learning style and your leadership style, I always score very low on flexibility. I'm very like honest to share this with people because I want people to know that you can learn to have this open mindset, you can remind yourself to be more flexible, even if that's not your natural inclination. So I answer these like assessments very honestly. So I know where my weaknesses are. And this actually is one of my weaknesses, and yet I have to manage it every single day. So I want people to have hope that you too can do it if I can.

Scott Allen:

You're a J on the Myers-Briggs type indicator, huh? I imagine, like, yeah.

Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei :

No, it's crazy. Yeah, it's like I'm very extreme.

Scott Allen:

Oh well, I as we begin to wind down, is there anything else that maybe we haven't covered that you want people to know about the chamber? I'm gonna put some links in the show notes.

Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei :

Yeah, I I would like people to understand, at least for the chamber in Singapore, we really try to be inclusive. And so some people may have the idea that you're in a that we are an American chamber and therefore we're only interested in talking to Americans, we're only interested in American companies. That is not actually true. We are much more international, as I think the United States really is. And so, therefore, when you come and visit us, you find a community of people from all different kinds of ethnicities, nationalities, you find businesses that are very international, but of course do quite a lot of business with American companies or in the US. So that's really important for me to let people know that we are very inclusive. The other thing is also just to let people know that if you are in a business association of any type, I hope that they will find their place in it, right? That for ours, I, you know, really believe in this. There's something here for everyone across all levels, across all functions. It isn't just for the CEOs or the senior leaders who want to come and hobnob with other senior people like themselves. No way, I'm not into that. They, of course, we have a space for them too, but uh, but we do so much for the middle manager who are struggling with their own thing, for everybody who needs to learn what AI is going. What is it? What is AI inference, for example? You know, there's so much to learn from each other here. And then, you know, I just want people to know that there is a place where you can be a business leader and be accepted and a place where they can come and feel like they're part of a really, you know, wonderful community that's out to help each other. And so, and help each other and help the rest of the greater Singapore community. And that's what's the most important thing to know about the American Chamber of Commerce in Singapore.

Scott Allen:

I love it. I love it. Well, I always I always wind down conversations by uh saying or asking, you know, what have you been streaming or listening to or reading or consuming that's caught your attention lately? Now it could have something to do with what we've just discussed, or it could have nothing to do with what we've just discussed. But what might listeners be interested in? Um, I have I have gotten more book recommendations from this question. It's kept me busy reading for the last five years. So what do you think? What's caught your eye?

Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei :

Well, the most recent book that I finished is one that was written by the WD 40 former CEO. Oh, yeah. And uh he he's now the, I think he's now the emeritus chairman or something like that, because he's kind of semi-retired. Yeah. And I'm sorry I blinked on his name, but he's a former WD40 CEO who wrote a book about leadership. And I love it because it the book is called Um Any Dumbass Can Do It. I think that's what it's called. I don't know if I can say that how your podcast. I mean, he put it on the cover of his book. And I just I I first of all, I at this point because in my career, I do I'm I'm reading books not necessarily because I need to learn new things. I'm looking for new ideas. Of course I am. That's obvious when you read something. But the other thing I'm also really appreciating is sometimes when I get a little bit of reassurance or affirmation of what I have been doing, that it has proven to be successful for other leaders. Because you know, you can have a bit of self-doubt, like, am I doing the right thing? How do I know? And obviously the results in your own organization speak for themselves, but it's always a good feeling to see, oh, the WD-40 CEO believes in this and has done this. And so I think this book is really fabulous. I highly recommend it. Yeah. And I actually believe it, you know, like how many there are people who are neurosurgeons. Okay, I cannot do that. That's for sure. I cannot do that. Yeah. There are many things that people think are so hard for them that actually, yes, we could do it. Just calm down and we can do this.

Scott Allen:

I love it. Shanshan, thank you so much for spending time. I really, really appreciate the work you're doing in the world. You know what? It's just a joy to have a conversation with you, and and we'll do it again. Thank you so much.

Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei :

Thank you for the encouragement.

Scott Allen:

Be well. Follow your energy. It knows the way. Loved this conversation, and have so much respect for her adventures and her willingness to serve in somewhat of a complex environment. A lot of competing commitments, a lot of people with vested interests, and we have a leader here who is navigating that with a sense of grace. As always, you all, thank you so much for checking in. Appreciate you. Take care. Be well.