Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott J. Allen, Ph.D.

Discovering Lincoln Through the Eyes of Douglas with Dr. Jonathan White

• Scott J. Allen • Season 1 • Episode 296

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Dr. Jonathan W. White is a professor of American Studies at Christopher Newport University. He is the author or editor of 17 books covering various topics, including civil liberties during the Civil War, the USS Monitor and the Battle of Hampton Roads, the presidential election of 1864, and what Abraham Lincoln and soldiers dreamt about.

Among his awards are the State Council of Higher Education for Virginia’s Outstanding Faculty Award (2019), CNU’s Alumni Society Award for Teaching and Mentoring (2016), the Abraham Lincoln Institute Book Prize (2015), and the University of Maryland Alumni Excellence Award in Research (2024).

His recent books include A House Built By Slaves: African American Visitors to the Lincoln White House (2022), which was co-winner of the Gilder Lehrman Lincoln Prize (with Jon Meacham); Shipwrecked: A True Civil War Story of Mutinies, Jailbreaks, Blockade-Running, and the Slave Trade (2023); Final Resting Places: Reflections on the Meaning of Civil War Graves (2023); and an exciting new children’s book, My Day with Abe Lincoln (2024).

A Quote From This Episode

  • "Viewed from the abolition ground, Lincoln seemed tardy, cold, dull; but measured by his country, he was swift, zealous, radical, and determined.”

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

About  Scott J. Allen

My Approach to Hosting

  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.



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Scott Allen:

Okay, everybody, welcome to the Phronesis podcast Practical Wisdom for Leaders. Thank you so much for checking in. I have a returning guest. His bio's in the show notes. If you don't know him by now, you haven't been, you've been living in a cave. I think it's Jonathan White. I have a feeling I know what we're about to talk about today too. He is a professor of American Studies at Christopher Newport University, and I don't know of anyone who knows more about Abraham Lincoln than Jonathan. I also don't know anyone who is more prolific because, like clockwork, on an annual basis, he has a new book that has come out, exploring this topic that he is so passionate about from a new angle. And, sir, thank you so much for rejoining me on the podcast today. What are we going to jump into? What have you been working on? I'm excited to hear.

Jonathan White:

Yeah well, thank you so much for having me back. I will be publishing a book in about three weeks called Measuring the man the Writings of Frederick Douglass on Abraham Lincoln, and I had this idea about a year and a half ago to pull together everything that Douglas wrote about Lincoln or said about Lincoln, both during Lincoln's lifetime and afterwards, because these are two of the most important leaders in the 19th century. They're really two of the most important leaders in all of American history. Wow. And they didn't always get along. So Douglas was very critical of Lincoln. Early on in Lincoln's presidency came to really appreciate what Lincoln did as the leader of the US during the Civil War, and so I wanted to give readers a sense of that change over time in one book. Bring it all together into one place.

Scott Allen:

Awesome, ok, well, let's jump in there. So you have two men incredibly influential in the landscape of American history. But you know Douglass was critical of Lincoln, so take us through a little bit of that. What were some of his perspectives and some of his criticisms?

Jonathan White:

Yeah. So it's rooted in their very different views of politics and the Constitution. So Douglass believed that the US Constitution was an anti-slavery document, that, if you interpreted it correctly, that it actually pointed towards freedom rather than slavery. And that's actually a very different view than most people have today. Most of us look back at the Constitution and we say, oh well, it was a pro-slavery document or a compromise with slavery. Douglas said no, it's an anti-slavery document. Lincoln had a more moderate view. Douglass said no, it's an anti-slavery document.

Jonathan White:

Lincoln had a more moderate view. His view was that the Constitution was a compromise and that it had some pro-slavery and some anti-slavery aspects to it. And so when Lincoln became president, he believed that he was bound by the Constitution All presidents take an oath to preserve, protect and defend it. And he believed that the Constitution protected slavery where the states wanted to have it, whereas Douglass believed if an anti-slavery president came in he could just kind of make policies to get rid of slavery. And so Douglass was really disappointed when Lincoln was inaugurated and Lincoln said that he would protect slavery where it already existed. He just wouldn't allow it to spread into Western territories. And Douglas was so angry with Lincoln that he actually called Lincoln the South's greatest slave hound and abolitionism's worst enemy and he said the South has no reason to secede. Lincoln's not going to do anything to touch slavery, you've got nothing to be afraid of. So for the first year and a half, douglas is really frustrated that Lincoln seems to be moving too slowly on emancipation.

Scott Allen:

Now talk to me about the communication between these two individuals. Are they communicating this whole time or is it kind of, you know, criticism from afar and through the press? How's that working?

Jonathan White:

Yeah, that's a great question. So they meet for the first time in August of 1863. Douglass had his own newspaper, so he's writing op-eds. I don't know if Lincoln ever read any of the op-eds, but Lincoln certainly knew who Frederick Douglass was. I mean, everyone knew who Frederick Douglass was during the Civil War. And so for the first year and a half of the war, douglas is writing these op-eds. He's out giving speeches around the country and many of these writings and speeches are highly critical of Abraham Lincoln.

Jonathan White:

When Lincoln issues the Emancipation Proclamation in January of 1863, that authorizes black men to enlist in the Union Army and Frederick Douglass is thrilled about this that black men are going to be able to flee from slavery or free blacks in the North will be able to now join the army and they will be able to fight not only for union but also for emancipation. The problem is that black soldiers were not treated with equality. They got less pay than white soldiers. They got worse uniforms and guns and equipment than white soldiers. They tend to have to do what is what's called fatigue duty, which is what it sounds like. It's hard labor that makes you tired. And if all of that is not bad enough, the Confederates created a policy that black soldiers and their white commanding officers, if they were captured on the battlefield, would be treated as slaves and as as slaves in insurrection, meaning that they could be shot and killed on the spot or sold into bondage, even if they had been free their whole lives. And so Douglas looks at the situation and on the one hand he sees progress, that now black men can serve in the military, but on the other hand he knows that bullets don't discriminate on account of the color of your skin and a black soldier is just as likely to be shot as a white soldier. So they should have equality, especially equal pay. And so these two guys met for the first time in August of 1863.

Jonathan White:

Douglas goes to the White House uninvited, unannounced. And Douglas goes to the White House uninvited, unannounced, just shows up, and that probably sounds crazy to people today, but actually back then anyone who wanted to could go in and just meet with the president. I think we've talked about that in the past. And so Douglas pushes Lincoln on these issues of inequality for black soldiers and Lincoln sort of explains you know, you're right, and eventually black soldiers will get equal pay. But he says essentially the constituency in the North won't allow for it right now and we've got to take steps deliberately and slowly, gradually, in order to sort of bring the public along. But eventually he says, black soldiers will get equal pay, which eventually they do. And Douglas goes away from that meeting somewhat disappointed because he didn't get what he wanted but also appreciating the political constraints and political realities that Lincoln as a president was facing. They met a second time a year later and this time it was at Lincoln's invitation. And by August of 1864, lincoln was convinced he would lose in his bid for reelection and he actually invites Douglas to come to the White House and they talk about a way that they could free as many slaves as possible before Lincoln is out of office. And that meeting really transforms Douglas's view of Lincoln because he sees in Lincoln a heart that really wants black freedom. And their final meeting was actually on the when Lincoln was inaugurated.

Jonathan White:

For the second time in March of 1865, douglas went to the white house for the big party. The police wouldn't let him in. They eventually let him in and they tried to very like, surreptitiously lead him right out of a window actually that they had turned into an exit, and they try to very surreptitiously lead him right out of a window, actually that they had turned into an exit. And Douglas realizes what they're doing and he shouts to somebody and says you know, tell Mr Lincoln, I'm here. And so they call to Lincoln and Lincoln comes over and he says oh, there's my friend Douglas.

Jonathan White:

And Lincoln asks him you know, what did you think of my inaugural address? And Douglas says something like oh, you know, my opinion doesn't matter, there's other, more important people here. And Lincoln says there's no one whose opinion I would value more than yours. And Douglas then turns to him and says it was a sacred effort and it's a really incredible moment where these two guys are connecting and talking. And Lincoln wants to know what do you think, fred, about this speech I just gave Lincoln? Actually, shortly after that invited Douglas to tea and Douglas turned him down because he had a speaking engagement and Douglas's policy was if I've been invited to give a lecture somewhere, I'm going to uphold my end of the bargain there. Douglas later said if I had known he wasn't going to live that much longer, I would have canceled that lecture and gone to see Lincoln for tea.

Scott Allen:

Wow. So you know and this isn't probably a very simplistic interpretation, but it sounds like the relationship and Lincoln slowing down, pausing, listening, and then that authentic dialogue with one another of look, I want to get here. These are some of the constraints that we're experiencing right now and that change, just initiating change, is so incredibly difficult in a lot of different contexts. It sounds like in the earlier years, douglas wanted change now and just that's the only solution, but he gained a little bit of an appreciation of what that actually takes. But then I think it sounds like from what you're saying, lincoln really began to empathize with some of his perspectives and learned from him. Is that? Am I in the ballpark here?

Jonathan White:

Yeah, I think that's absolutely correct. I did a book a couple of years ago called A House Built by Slaves African-American Visitors to the Lincoln White House, and I traced the stories as many as I could of black men and women coming to the White House to meet with Lincoln and to talk about what was on their minds, and this was a story that had been lost in history for 160 years. And what I found in all of those stories all but one really, and there was a reason for the one. But in almost all of those stories Lincoln listened to the people who came in and talked to him and he was willing to engage with them where they were and to try to do what he could. So one of the most profound is that as a young man, lincoln had opposed allowing black men to vote. Martin Van Buren had actually supported black suffrage in New York in the 1820s, and when Van Buren was running for president in the 1840s, lincoln mocked the idea of allowing black men to vote. And what many people don't know is that black men could vote in most of the states at the time of our founding. That right to vote was taken away in the 1820s and 30s and 40s. And so Lincoln is kind of within the majority view in the 1830s and 40s saying you know, black men shouldn't have the right to vote.

Jonathan White:

But during the war he has several delegations of black men come and meet with him from the South and these include some men who had escaped from slavery from New Orleans, from Virginia, from North Carolina, and they bring petitions and they point out you know, we're serving our country, we're paying taxes, we used to have the right to vote, we should have it again.

Jonathan White:

And those delegations changed Lincoln's mind. He was willing to listen to them and engage with them and treat them with kindness and humility and he then began working behind the scenes to push for the right to vote for black men. In fact, the last speech Lincoln ever gave, in April of 1865, he publicly called for black men to have the right to vote for black men. In fact, the last speech Lincoln ever gave, in April of 1865, he publicly called for black men to have the right to vote if they had served in the army or were educated. And in the audience that night was John Wilkes Booth. Wow, john Wilkes Booth said that means N-word citizenship. By God, that'll be the last speech he ever gives, and four days later Lincoln was dead, and so, in a way, lincoln's push for black suffrage was the thing that put John Wilkes Booth over the edge, and it was black delegations meeting with Lincoln that pushed Lincoln to come to accept the idea of black suffrage.

Scott Allen:

Well, what are a couple other insights from your research in this most recent book that maybe caught your attention, maybe you didn't have on your radar.

Jonathan White:

Yeah, my co-author and I actually discovered a dozen documents that no one has ever seen, or no one has seen for 160 years, I guess, would be the more accurate way to put it. It's incredible how much is still out there waiting to be discovered. And so we found eight new Frederick Douglass letters that no one has seen before. They were written to British correspondents, and I was able to find them on microfilm newspapers. Actually because Douglass would write to these abolitionists in England and what those abolitionists would do is they would take out the private parts of the letters and then give the public parts of the letters to editors in England and then the editors would publish them.

Jonathan White:

And some of this correspondence was so radical that the British readers actually didn't believe the letters were real. And so I found editorials that the editors would write saying we think these are legitimate, they're authentic and here's why we think they are. And what I did was I went to Douglass's papers at the Library of Congress and I was able to find the return correspondence. So I was able to confirm that these letters were real and legitimate. But they give a new perspective on Douglass, I think, as a political leader, in a couple of ways. One is, douglass was willing to say things to the British audiences that he never would have said to an American audience.

Scott Allen:

Really.

Jonathan White:

Yeah. So some of them were very critical of Lincoln during the war, like even more critical than what he was saying in the United States at the time. But the craziest one came right after Lincoln's assassination. So Lincoln's assassinated, shot on April 14th 1865, dies the morning of April 15th and the United States immediately has an outpouring of grief and Douglass gave a couple of speeches in Rochester, new York, where he was living, where he, you know, talked about his grief and his friendship with Lincoln and how well they knew one another and how wonderful Lincoln was. That was the message Douglass sent to American audiences. He sent a very different one to British ones and he wrote a letter on April 20th 1865, to one of these British abolitionists saying you know, yes, it's awful that Lincoln has been assassinated, but it actually might be better for the cause of black freedom that Lincoln was killed Because Lincoln as a leader, he wanted the United States reunited.

Jonathan White:

His goal was to bring ex-Confederates back into the Union, so he wanted them to repent of their sins, to get rid of slavery but then come back into the United States. And Lincoln wanted essentially white Confederates and black Southerners to come into the Union together with political rights Wow. And Black.

Jonathan White:

Southerners to come into the Union together with political rights. Wow, Now for someone like Douglas, that's terrifying to think about ex-Confederates regaining political rights and potentially political power. So in this letter I discovered to a British abolitionist, Douglas says you know, it's terrible that Lincoln was killed, but Andrew Johnson might actually be a better president for Black Americans in the post-war period. And Douglas points out you know, both Lincoln and Johnson were born into slave states. They were both born into poverty. They're both self-made men, but Lincoln moved out of a slave state as a young man, whereas Andrew Johnson, the new president, stayed in the slave state, so he really understands how terrible the slave power is. He's going to punish the ex-Confederates, whereas Lincoln would have forgiven them. And that shows us one like as a rhetorical strategy, that Douglass treats different audiences differently, which you could do in that era, because it's not like videos can go viral and then, everyone sees what you said to a private audience.

Jonathan White:

But then it also shows us just how focused Douglass was on Black freedom and Black equality, that, as devastated as he was to lose Lincoln, he recognized that losing Lincoln might be best for his people in the long run.

Scott Allen:

Wow, I view you as like a treasure hunter of sorts, right? I mean you're finding documents that haven't been read for 160 years. You said.

Jonathan White:

Yeah, I've always viewed being a historian as being a detective. And the other fun thing about being a historian is you get to read other people's mail and their diaries and so you know you find one half of the correspondence. And then you search's mail and their diaries and so you know you find one half of the correspondence and then you search until you find the other half. And that's the fun part about it.

Scott Allen:

Wow, wow. Okay, so a couple other insights that stood out for you. I mean, this is so cool that you are literally uncovering documents that haven't been seen in that long. That's so much fun. And again, I think it's also just a very, very useful insight that, to your point, you can't go viral, so you can communicate in different ways to different audiences Fascinating, absolutely.

Jonathan White:

So a couple of other things that really stand out in some of these writings. One is that you know, abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass both came out of poverty. Now granted very different experiences. Where Douglass was born into slavery, lincoln obviously was born free, but Douglas really appreciated what poverty did for Lincoln in his development as a leader, and that's very different from other people how they viewed him.

Jonathan White:

So WEB Du Bois, who was, you know, harvard educated very prominent black leader in the early late 19th, early 20th century black leader in the early late 19th, early 20th century. He looked down upon lincoln for lincoln's poor upbringing. So there's a very famous and, I think, somewhat funny quote from web du bois where he said abraham lincoln was a southern poor white of illegitimate birth, poorly educated and unusually ugly, awkward and ill-dressed. He likes muddy stories and was a politician down to his toes. So for someone like dubois and by the way, lincoln was not of illegitimate birth, that was kind of a rumor that floated in lincoln's lifetime, um, but for someone like dubois who was very highly educated, he looked down on lincoln who who described his own education with one word and that was defective, whereas for Douglass he really appreciated the fact that Lincoln was able to rise from poor, like a poor background, and make himself into a great person. And Douglass talked about, you know, for instance, the right to vote which we talked about a little bit ago.

Jonathan White:

When Lincoln came out and publicly advocated for black suffrage in April of 1865, he had limited suffrage in mind. So those black men who had served in the army or who were educated yes, now, for no other men in the country at that time were there limitations like that. There was universal white manhood suffrage. If you were a man who was white, who was at least 18, you could vote in any state, yep. And so some people criticized Lincoln for saying well, let's limit it to those who have served or those who are educated. For Douglas there was no problem in that. And Douglas said that Lincoln learned his politics through splitting rails, like through chopping down trees, cutting up the wood into rails. And what Douglas said was you put the thin edge of the wedge in first and then you strike at it until it splits the rail and the thick edge gets in. Wow, edge gets in and that was Douglas.

Jonathan White:

Douglas's way of saying. Like I recognize, lincoln as a leader can't do anything he wants instantaneously. He can't just snap his fingers and get what he wants. He has to persuade the electorate. Hey, let's do something we haven't done in a long time. Let's give black men the right to vote. Most white northerners are going to oppose that. So what do you do? You start with the thin edge. You say you know what Men who have served in the army, they, they have fought for citizenship. They deserve the right to vote. Let's give it to them and eventually the country will come to see that all black men should be part of this body politic.

Jonathan White:

Yeah, there's another one that's very famous, but we include I mean we included everything in the book. And in 1876, on the anniversary of Lincoln's assassination, douglas dedicated a statue in Washington DC. And this statue is very controversial today because it shows Lincoln kind of hovering with his arm outstretched over a black man who is rising up out of bondage. And so, since Lincoln is sort of standing and the black man is kneeling, but rising it's, today the statue has gotten a lot of criticism. I think it's an important statue because the money for it was raised entirely by African-Americans who after the Civil War, after Lincoln's assassination, said we want to do something to thank Abraham Lincoln and show our public appreciation for Lincoln.

Jonathan White:

And Douglass was invited to deliver the speech dedicating the statue, and it's a very famous speech, and in that speech Douglas recounted all of the things that Lincoln had done during the Civil War that had frustrated him as a radical, the things like where Lincoln had been too slow in pushing for black freedom or for black rights. And he in that speech actually says that Lincoln was preeminently the white man's president and entirely devoted to the welfare of white men. So Douglas sort of says like this is how we thought about Lincoln at the time. But then he pivots and and in the speech he then takes a different perspective and he recognizes that Lincoln was, as a leader, didn't have omnipotence he. He had to think about what the white electorate in the north wanted or what it thought, and that Lincoln steps in pushing towards emancipation in the way he did and bringing the public along with him was, in the end, the best way to do it and.

Jonathan White:

Douglas essentially concedes that if Lincoln had done what Douglass wanted, if Lincoln had been too radical too early, that it would have lost the Civil War and emancipation wouldn't have happened anyway.

Jonathan White:

And Douglass essentially came to admit that Lincoln's approach had been the right one. And Douglass has this incredible line where he says had been the right one. And Douglass has this incredible line where he says, viewed from the genuine abolition ground, mr Lincoln seemed tardy, cold, dull and indifferent, like when we looked at him back then we thought what's wrong with this guy? He's the South's greatest friend here. But then he says, but measuring him by the sentiment of his country, a sentiment he was bound as a statesman to consult. He was swift, zealous, radical and determined. And I think that's the real legacy of these two guys is that as leaders they came to learn from one another and they started off in very different places, came to learn from one another and they started off in very different places. But they both wanted very similar things and they they were able to sort of see how each one had something to teach the other and ultimately they got to the goal, which was the emancipation proclamation and then the 13th amendment, forever ending slavery.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, how does the story of Douglas, kind of you know post Lincoln's death, talk a little bit about that and then we'll kind of wind down. Sure, he stayed active. He stayed kind of really, really, really involved in the movement throughout speeches.

Jonathan White:

For the rest of his life he was touring around the country. For the rest of his life he wrote his third autobiography after, in the 1880s. So he wrote three autobiographies one in the 1840s, one in the 1850s and one in the 1880s. He was always writing for newspapers, editorials, those sort of things. In fact he died on his way to go give a speech and I highly recommend, if the audience has never been, next time you go to Washington DC, go to the Frederick Douglass home.

Jonathan White:

They do an extraordinary tour. It's a national park site and I'm going to spoil it here, but I'm assuming most of your audience is probably at least 30. So if I'm spoiling something that's been around for 150 years, that's not on me. If you go to the Douglas home, you do the tour and at the very end they bring you back out to the entryway and they tell you you know, frederick Douglas gave speeches for the rest of his life fighting for black equality.

Jonathan White:

And as you're standing there in the foyer they say and he fell and died right here as he was getting ready to go out and get in his carriage for another speech, and I think it was going to be a speech for women's rights in Washington DC, if memory serves correct. And so you can go and kind of capture what Douglas's life was like by walking through his home. Like by walking through his home, and then at the end you're kind of reminded that you had. This guy fought for the political rights of not only black men but black and white women as well for the entirety of his career.

Scott Allen:

And how did it work out with the president after Lincoln?

Jonathan White:

Yeah, that is not a happy story. So Andrew Johnson comes in as president and, as I pointed out before, douglas had great hopes for him. And I should say there was reason for Douglas to have high hopes. So as the military governor of Tennessee in 1864, andrew Johnson goes out and gives a speech to a black audience in Nashville and he says I will be your Moses. Like Andrew Johnson, the guy who's as racist as they come says to a black audience I will be your Moses. And in fact he ended slavery in Tennessee in 1864 because Tennessee had been exempted from the Emancipation Proclamation.

Jonathan White:

And at the end of the war, when Lincoln is assassinated, andrew Johnson says treason must be made odious. And so Frederick Douglass thought Andrew Johnson was going to be this leader who was going to punish ex-Confederates and give black men the right to vote. Well, douglass goes to the White House in February of 1866 and he meets with Andrew Johnson and he pushes Johnson on black suffrage and he kind of points to Lincoln and he says you know, lincoln supported black voting rights for for black soldiers, you should follow that lead. And Johnson is is dismissive and condescending. And after Douglas and his friends leave, johnson says you know, he's nothing but an N-word. Who would slit a white man's throat if he could?

Jonathan White:

And a few days later, frederick Douglass went to the US Capitol and gave a speech in the House of Representatives chamber about Lincoln. It was for Lincoln's birthday and as part of that speech he said and this was alluding to Johnson he said that Lincoln didn't begin as a Moses and end as a pharaoh. In other words, moses is the leader who leads the Israelites out of Israel, and Andrew Johnson has said I will be your Moses. But now Douglas can see Johnson knows the pharaoh, the guy who wants to keep black people enslaved, can see Johnson knows the Pharaoh, the guy who wants to keep black people enslaved. And and so Douglas points out in the speech which we have in the book, lincoln is not like Andrew Johnson if he had been and and in a sense, like that's Douglas acknowledging his view in that letter that I discovered was wrong, and that that Andrew Johnson was not the leader he had hoped he would. Yeah, it's Measuring the man. The Writings of Frederick Douglass on Abraham Lincoln.

Scott Allen:

Okay, perfect. Thank you, sir. What are you looking to now as your next project? I know you have your eye on something right.

Jonathan White:

Yeah, so I've got a couple things in the works. I just finished a collection of writings, firsthand accounts of Abraham Lincoln. That's with the University Press right now out for peer review. I'm writing a photographic book about the Lincoln home. So if your audience knows the Images of America books that you often find in gift shops, there's none about the Lincoln home. And that's one of the most magical places for me, where you go and you walk through the house and you can just envision Lincoln there, the family man, the real live person, interacting with his kids, with his wife, with his friends, and so that one I'm almost finished. I have to get that to the publisher this fall.

Jonathan White:

And then the big project I'm working on is a history of a former slave in Arkansas who murdered his former owner in the process of rescuing his daughters from slavery, and it's a very powerful story about a father's love and his willing to do anything he could to save his girls.

Jonathan White:

And it connects to Lincoln. I'll give a little bit of a spoiler here. It connects to Lincoln because the father and his friend ended up getting tried in a military court for murder. They were found guilty and they were sentenced to be executed, but because it was a military court. They couldn't be executed without presidential approval, and so the trial transcript was sent to Washington DC, where Lincoln had to review it, and Lincoln overturned the conviction would not allow these black men to be executed, and Lincoln's rationale was the Emancipation Proclamation had declared these girls free, and a father has a right to rescue his daughters from illegal bondage, and so it's a really incredible story. I've been sitting on it actually for about five years. I've written about 20,000 words, but I haven't touched it for about two years and I'm just now getting back to it, so hopefully in a year or two I'll be able to come back and talk about that.

Scott Allen:

Well, you have an open invitation anytime, sir. Oh, thanks, I am so thankful for your time today and your wisdom is always. I love our time together because I'm always learning and I just have great respect for your deep passion and knowledge in this space. I mean, it's just so much fun to listen to you speak on this topic. As you know, I always end out the episode by asking you what's caught your attention in recent times. So what have you been reading or listening to or streaming? It could have something to do with Lincoln and Douglas, or it could have nothing to do with that, but what might listeners be interested in?

Jonathan White:

Well, I've actually been thinking a lot about flag burning recently because President Trump issued an executive order on flag desecration. I was interviewed by both the History Channel and NPR last week because I did an article on flag desecration during the Civil War, which was something that no one had ever really looked at before. So these reporters found me and interviewed me. So, if anyone's interested in that, my articles online the NPR and History Channel articles that quote me are online, but my article is called we Didn't start the fire, which I'm sure your audience knows what that's an allusion to and it's a. It's a history of men and women, including teenage girls, who desecrated American flags during the civil war and what happened to them when they did it. So I I've been revisiting that subject for the last week or so because of the media attention to it.

Scott Allen:

Wow, okay, I will put a link to those in the show notes. And, sir, as always, thank you so very, very much for your wisdom, for your expertise, for your passion For listeners. Check out the show notes. There's some links in there for you and until next time, jonathan, have a great one. Thank you, sir.

Jonathan White:

Thank you.

Scott Allen:

The practical wisdom for me in this conversation know your craft. Wow, if you are a leader who knows their craft, you have character, some emotional intelligence, you build relationships. You are well on your way and Jonathan is an individual who knows his craft, just an expert, and I had images of like, as he said, kind of a treasure hunter or something like that. He's discovering documents that haven't been seen. It's just so cool, so much fun. Jonathan White, pi, everyone, as always, thank you so much for checking in, appreciate you, take care, be well.