Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott J. Allen, Ph.D.

Don’t Stay in Your Lane: A Conversation with Cynthia Pong

• Scott J. Allen • Season 1 • Episode 289

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Cynthia Pong, JD, is an award-winning executive coach and speaker who empowers women of color leaders to advance their careers into positions of power. A Forbes Contributor and LinkedIn Top Voice for Job Search and Career, she has been featured in HBR, The Atlantic, and on NBC, CBS, NPR, and more. 

As Founder and CEO of Embrace Change, Cynthia leads an elite, all-BIPOC team who provide specialized coaching and training programs for high-performing women of color up to the C-suite. Equipped with Cynthia’s strategic guidance, her clients break down barriers, lead with authenticity, and have collectively negotiated over $750K in salary increases. Her Anthem Award-winning Leadership Accelerator program has propelled women of color to prestigious fellowships, promotions, and top graduate program admissions. 

Cynthia’s book, Don’t Stay in Your Lane: The Career Change Guide for Women of Color , has cemented her as a foremost voice on career advancement, negotiation, and thought leadership.

A Few Quotes From This Episode

  • “I’ve coached over 350 women of color—those numbers taught me it’s never a skills gap but often a confidence gap.”
  • “It’s not about a deficit in ability; it’s about being so hard on ourselves we won’t experiment or make a mistake.”
  • “One-on-one tailored strategic support from an executive coach is the single best investment of your scarcest resource: time.”
  • “We have to change from doing to leading—mastering tasks won’t teach you how to inspire others.”

Resources Mentioned in This Episode 

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

About  Scott J. Allen

My Approach to Hosting

  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of t


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Scott Allen:

Okay, everybody, welcome to Practical Wisdom for Leaders. Thank you so much for checking in. Wherever you are in the world, today I have Cynthia Pong and she is a JD and she is an award-winning executive coach and speaker who empowers women of color leaders to advance their careers into positions of power. A Forbes contributor and LinkedIn top voice for job search and career, she has been featured in HBR, the Atlantic and on NBC, cbs, npr and more. As founder and CEO of Embrace Change, cynthia leads an elite all-BIPOC team who provides specialized coaching and training programs for high-performing women of color up to the C-suite, equipped with Cynthia's strategic guidance. Her clients break down barriers, lead with authenticity and have collectively negotiated over $750,000 in salary increases. Her Anthem Award-winning Leadership Accelerator program has propelled women of color to prestigious fellowships, promotions and top graduate program admissions admissions. Cynthia's book Don't Stay in your Lane the Career Change Guide for Women of Color, has cemented her as a foremost voice on career advancement, negotiation and thought leadership. Cynthia, what is not in your bio that everyone needs to know about you? What's not there?

Cynthia Pong:

Oh my goodness. Thank you, scott. And it's true there's a number of things there, but I've come to embrace that I'm more of like a maximalist style, like there's a lot of things that have a lot of interest, and you know, I feel like as someone who is a former academic my father was a professor and I feel like our family is like super nerds, so like I feel like you might appreciate that. But what is not in there is I love Rottweilers, I'm obsessed with Rottweilers and I want one one day, but I know I don't currently live a lifestyle that really supports that, and I'm a middle child, which I think explains some of my oppositional defiance.

Scott Allen:

I love that. Oh, that's great, and I can see behind you. You have a record player, so you must enjoy music.

Cynthia Pong:

Yeah, I do. I want to say I didn't get into vinyl at the time that, like you know, when it had this comeback or whatever. But like, truthfully, that probably is how it is, although that is like a hand-me-down for my husband's, aunt's record player or whatever. So like not just doing it for looks.

Scott Allen:

Well, my aunt reached out to me recently and she said you know we're getting rid of my record collection, do you want it? And so she sent me a list of all of her albums. So I have a lot of Hall Oates, fleetwood Mac waiting for me in Fort Dodge, iowa.

Cynthia Pong:

Oh, I love it. Oh my gosh. I hope you have ample time blocked out to really like go through that and make some hard decisions.

Scott Allen:

Exactly Well, I'm excited for our conversation today. You know, when we first kind of connected. I love this phrasing of breaking barriers, authentic leadership and kind of actionable strategic ways of thinking about advancing their careers, getting the promotion, whatever it is, in an authentic way. I mean. That really intrigued me. So bring us into your world a little bit. How do you think about this topic? What are some highlights?

Cynthia Pong:

You know I was thinking about this and at this point I sort of have lost track. But I think personally, I've coached over 350 women of color, mostly women of color. There've been some women in general, some men of color, some men in there, but that's kind of the numbers we're looking at. But in the last couple of years I've really had to cut that back because we've had, you know, we have an agency of BIPOC coaches now and also running the business and the B2B side. You know, it's the entrepreneurial life. So, as much as I love it, I've had to cut back.

Cynthia Pong:

But I was thinking over that and kind of like okay, what are the highlights, what are the themes that we've seen?

Cynthia Pong:

And this is both a highlight and a theme and also, I would say, just a collectively like a growth area, because so many of our clients at Embrace Change are the first or the only you know still and it's 2025.

Cynthia Pong:

So they're the first person who looks like them, who comes from a background like theirs, who has their set of lived experiences, who's gotten to that level of leadership, for example, that VP, svp, that C-suite level position, executive director, what have you? So what that looks or feels like, to give folks kind of maybe a little more fleshing this out is like you know, just imagine you're looking up the org chart and you don't see anyone who really looks like you. Then you manage to get to that level and then you look around and there's no one who looks like you, or maybe there's one or two, but there's that distinct feeling that you're in a place that's not like default folks who have your background and things. So there are costs to that and I think if we're not careful internalizing some or over assigning meaning to what that means and internalizing some of what that might mean I know I'm keeping a little academic right now, but we can break it down.

Scott Allen:

Yeah.

Cynthia Pong:

That can really hurt us in kind of the mind game quote unquote of it all. It can wear on your confidence, it can wear on your self-esteem. It can. In the worst case it can lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy of not performing at your best. Even in the best case, you're running more. I think of it as like more cylinders have to fire in your brain than if you weren't dealing with this situation where you're not kind of like in the mainstream community and background Because there's a lot of what our clients are doing is like okay, let's say you're in a board meeting or something like, and you want to say something like okay, well, should I say it or not?

Cynthia Pong:

What is the blowback if I do say it? Because you know XYZ folks might not really be on board or they might dismiss what I say, even the questions. That's taking mental load for you to run them. And then it's like okay, I am going to say it. How do I say it? Do I say it now? There's so much analytical thinking that happens, and so think about having to do that before you even get to the point of like the contribution. Does the contribution get made? I'm going to pause there because I know it was a lot, but that's sort of one area, one entry point.

Scott Allen:

Well, so you reminded me of this quote. I forgot who said this quote, but it was regarding Fred Astaire. And so the individual said you know, sure, fred Astaire is great, but you got to remember, ginger Rogers did everything he did backwards and in high heels, yes. And so there's just different layers and complexities that these individuals are experiencing on any number of levels, that eking up that processing time, where, if me, a white male who is fairly representative of quote, unquote, the fortune 500 leadership structure, I once did a women's leader development program with the YWCA. It was wonderful and I learned so much.

Scott Allen:

Because one participant said when I go in my closet in the morning, it takes me about 15 minutes to figure out what I'm going to wear. And I was like, really Well, why is that? And she said, well, I want to look trendy, but I don't want to look overly suggestive, so it takes time. In that moment I was like, oh my gosh, like this took less than a second zero thought. And another participant said you know, hey, all of my male counterparts in the C-suite have stay-at-home spouses who, at the drop of a hat, they can go to China. I can't Both work and I don't have that. So it was just these different complexities that I'd never thought of that were so powerful.

Cynthia Pong:

And I think what you're describing in a way, and that the leader at the YMCA or YWCA. What they're describing is the double bind that women in general phase, and then for women of color, it's a triple bind because it's the intersectionality of the race plus gender, but the double bind being, of course, like you know, she wants to dress, to project a certain image and bring a certain. Does that fit the definition of leadership or whatnot that she's being tasked to fit into? And there's that thing for women in general where it's like you're either perceived as being nice and you're well liked, or you're perceived as being a competent leader that people will listen to. So if you constantly have to juggle those and those are often put in an antithetical way, like if you're nice, then you're not a good leader, if you're a good leader, then you won't be nice because that's not going to get the work done. So, yeah, like that's what you're describing. It's those added considerations, burdens, however you want to look at it.

Scott Allen:

Well, and I imagine that's why having a coach can be so incredibly beneficial. I've had a therapist for 17 years that I speak with every two weeks. I have a mentor that I speak with every two weeks, my wife and I walk every morning, and having thinking partners that can help you process with an educated mind probably all of that in a narrative it's invaluable.

Cynthia Pong:

Yes, oh, my gosh, it's like you're reading my notes because we had talked about okay, you know you want me to talk about some themes that we've seen in our work around breaking barriers and authentic leadership, and then, of course, actionable strategies, which I'm really about it in our work, both on our organizational, b2b side and B2C, because I am so trained as a lawyer that lawyer brain of problem solving dies hard. I'll just say so. When Embrace Change does something, we're there to make an impact and help solve problems, whether it's at an organizational level or not. So I was really into the actionable strategies and one of them was the individual support. So when you're at a high and I'll just say elite level of leadership, you need an executive coach.

Cynthia Pong:

At that point your time is so valuable and your most scarce and valuable resource. You need to know that you're investing it well. So that one-on-one tailored strategic support from executive coach like that would have been my number one strategy, paired with the personal board of advisors which you've just kind of laid out, your version of that, the thinking partners, because also your exec coach is not going to be all to. You know every need that you have. I love therapy. I think it's absolutely crucial for the world and times that we live in. You know, I have had so much of it but, like, coaching is not therapy and it's not intended to be, and so having all those things I think you know is I love that you shared that, because it just jumps right to the actionable part of this.

Scott Allen:

Well, I think at times we have. So one of my favorite quotes is who you are is how you lead, and so that's my lived history, that's my personality, that's my value system, that's my mindsets, that's any number of different elements of me, and I bring that to that position of authority. And if part of who I am is, to your point, always kind of second guessing and questioning and I don't have some outlet to help me process that, I think to your point, you're in some ways this might be a little too harsh, setting yourself up for failure. That might be too much, but you're certainly not accessing really, really tangible resources that could make a difference for you. You know what I mean.

Cynthia Pong:

No, I do know what you mean and I've been a New Yorker for however many decades, that doesn't feel tough to me. To be honest, I don't think we have to apply such heavy criticism and judgment to like everything, and I think that's actually one example of how it's really hard to get to that place where you can be an authentic leader when you are a woman of color or a woman or person of color, because societally there's a lot of messaging that trains us to be overly critical of ourselves and people. We can constantly go through the daily process of breaking cycles, even breaking generational cycles, and before we hit record we were talking about hard conversations and how to have them. Perhaps the hardest conversation of all is to have the honest conversation with yourself about how we can improve, what gaps there might be, where we might be holding ourselves because we are being so overly critical and judgmental of ourselves. And one framework that I teach in our leadership accelerator and also in some of our organizational work you know we partnered with a large public health organization and your statewide agencies and stuff is this framework of C care, which is just the letter C, hyphen, c, a, r, e, and that first C stands for compassion, which is both compassion for yourself and also compassion for other people.

Cynthia Pong:

And I'll backtrack a bit to explain how I came up with this framework in coaching so many women of color, because I kept noticing the gap between them and where they wanted to be with their leadership or their career goals. It was not a skills gap, it was not some sort of deficit in that regard. It was really. They were so hard on themselves that they weren't allowing themselves to try something new, to experiment, to make a mistake, and part of that is because the stakes are so high at that level and for who you are. Maybe you're supporting multiple family units, maybe you're not only raising your family. You got to send money back home, you've got a cousin who you know, like those are all the things that happen for our community.

Cynthia Pong:

So I understand it and also that's why I put it so front and center in the framework, because it's easy to lose oneself, and what you said about who you are is how you lead. That perfectly aligns with to me. That's the key to authentic leadership. Lead that perfectly aligns with to me, that's the key to authentic leadership. You have to make sure you don't lose yourself and you don't self-alienate or get alienated from what you're actually trying to do, your real values, your original mission with your career, and but as you climb certain ladders, the risk of that happening is ever increasing the risk of that happening is ever increasing.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, and especially, I think, for a lot of C-level executives. You're at a point now where you have your children in school maybe it's a private school, you have a mortgage, you have I mean there's added pressures that kind of get layered onto. I think it's tragic in organizational life because you then have a number of people who are trying to stay safe, afraid to speak up, even when they see something incredibly valuable that might be counter to whatever narrative is.

Cynthia Pong:

Yep.

Scott Allen:

And I think organizations are missing out on really important mind shares. Yes, it's tragic If that leader is not creating the psychological safety. Well, now you're. It's cooked, it's done.

Cynthia Pong:

Yes, oh my God, so many words that I want to say all at once now, because psychological safety is something I think about and we weave into our work so much, because that is foundational.

Cynthia Pong:

And I also, though, love that you pointed out the missing out on the important mind share of that loss and inefficiency, because I'm also like a real efficiency person of like yo, what are we doing?

Cynthia Pong:

And, to be clear also, everything that I'm saying, even though I'm saying it from the perspective of like on the B2C side, we specialize in working with a particular community it applies to everybody. I want that to be like clear, and I believe that we can all learn from everything, even everyday things that happen around me, like I bet you and your wife on certain walks in the mornings, like you've probably thought of really powerful metaphors and things you've learned in your talks and keynotes later on from, like a random observation of I don't know a duck on a pond or something right. Like, yes, I think we can learn from everything, and it does frustrate me when it's like, oh my God, your people are your most valuable asset. Even with the onslaught of AI and Gen AI, I still you know the people are going to get the work done at the end of the day. So like why are we not setting everyone up to succeed? It's going to help everything, including the bottom line, yeah.

Scott Allen:

And again, even for your most diehard of leaders, the bottom line. Yes, because we've all been in the meeting where no one spoke up. But you could look around the room and see the seven people who disagreed with what was being put into motion but didn't say a thing. And just think of the time, the dollars, the energy. Now the message gets cascaded down three levels. They know it's a bad idea.

Cynthia Pong:

Yeah, right, I know.

Scott Allen:

And then we wonder well, why are you know, only a third of people going to work and feeling engaged right now? Well, yes it kind of starts at the top and are you creating that space where we can have those conversations?

Cynthia Pong:

I know it definitely cascades down and it ripples out because that's gonna hit brand reputation. You know what I mean. Like how do you stop that? Like embarrassing pr disaster that didn't need to happen if somebody would have told you you know which maybe they would have. And you know psychological safety, it's such a I mean I love talking about it and it was on another recent podcast where we like that was like the topic or whatever. So it's so important and I think still there's a relative dearth of training, understanding, basic awareness around what it is, and then even more like okay, we want that, but like how, you know the how gets really tricky because it's a lot of things. You know what?

Scott Allen:

I mean, it is the leader's behaviors, it's not only their words, but it's also how they back that up and how they behave. I once had a leader kind of snap at me when I and it was a very well-intended, honest comment Totally cool for you to disagree with it, get it. But the snappy behavior.

Cynthia Pong:

And that's what, in a legal context, you call a chilling effect, you know, which I think everyone can understand. But that's right, that one thing. It's like the Maya Angelou quote. That's like people forget what you say. They'll forget what you did, but they'll never forget how you made them feel. I only asterisk that with, like I believe we're all in charge of our emotions and that's like our job to regulate that. And also, that was real, what you experienced and what everyone else, then also the lesson they took away from that. And I think, yeah, words, behaviors also. You know this is a little bit whatnot, whatnot, but this podcast is for nieces, so I feel like you know we can go there like it's the energy that you bring to us you know, which stems out of the who you are.

Cynthia Pong:

And, yeah, I do think that all those things combined is really critical and we're all on our process of you know, internalizing and learning how to provide more psychological safety, if that's our goal, yeah, you know.

Scott Allen:

So what are a couple other strategies that you often talk about with clients, or what are some other things that have worked for you as you're coaching? I'm super interested.

Cynthia Pong:

Yeah. So you know we talked about first kind of the like getting the support, which I'll just flesh the kind of personal advisory board one out a little bit, because I think sometimes people are like, ok, great, cynthia, that sounds awesome, but like now, what? Like how do I actually action on this? So you know, I was thinking about our conversation. Scott and I was like, ok, so ideally I would recommend that one's personal advisory board be like a mix of people. I think sometimes people are like, okay, well, everyone needs to be in such and such high powered position and they all need to be like my mentors. And I'm kind of like no, I think you need a more diversified board of advisors, especially in the times that we're living in. So I would almost think about it as like a board that you would recommend for a corporation or a nonprofit, and like you want the mix of skill sets. So think about in that context, you probably want someone who has a financial background. I said you want a strategist. So maybe that is lawyer or maybe it's not, but like I put finance first and foremost, even though it might be like kind of a wacky answer, but when economic power is power, you know like you need someone who has sort of that background, and I think a lot of us, if you're not in finance, like it just feels like that whole area could be a black box, so every kind of role could be a separate person, or some people could bring multiple at once. So this is just kind of going by this one particular lens, so you've got legal, you've got finance. Buy this one particular lens, so you've got legal, you've got finance. You have strategy of ops communication. Yeah, Even if you think about it as like crisis comes like.

Cynthia Pong:

I was meeting with a colleague the other day who was an expert in the crisis communications area, like in the foundations world, and I was like, wow, I can really see why this is a crucial, such a needed component, right, where one hot mic moment, one thing you put out on LinkedIn, it could become so much if it's done the wrong way. So I think that skillset and then finally somebody and you know this is where kind of like you're in my overlap is like the leadership piece, so like do you have someone who's really familiar in leadership in a related industry to yours and then someone who's intra industry, so someone who's within your industry but can also be a champion and, again, like these kind of needs and roles could be filled by multiple people or one person. There could be overlap and it's a work in progress, but those are kind of like what I thought were sort of the must haves to ideally think about, and if you're someone who already has all those components for you, can you serve as one of those for someone else? Yeah, you know, each one to each one, like forward, give it back, et cetera, because, especially for women of color, I'll say like we tend to be over mentored and under sponsored, under championed, so like it's that we get a lot of advice, often even unsolicited, but less action in terms of promotions, connections, nominations, amplification, financial support, high profile media opportunities, that type of thing. So that kind of just bottoms out.

Cynthia Pong:

Just to finish out, that second strategy of gathering your co-thought leaders, again, to like make sure you challenge any inner narratives and dialogues that might not be serving you. Then the third one I was thinking of is this is a little more core level, but I think again, with this podcast being for nieces and that being like I had to look it up, by the way, I'm a nerd, but I had to, like I was like I really got to dive into this because I'm cool. Like you know, it's about practical wisdom, right? But, like you know, I looked up another definition. It was like wisdom and determining the ends and the means of attaining them. Oh wow, I hadn't heard that one, that's good.

Cynthia Pong:

Yeah, and I was like, well, that's exactly the process of a lot of this coaching or training or speaking. Work right Is like what is your goal and then how do you get there? And just practical, like the practical application of it. So this one it might feel less practical, but I feel like it's so important to your earlier point of who we are is how we lead.

Cynthia Pong:

There's one pain point pothole that I see over and over again in our clients, but also when we work with organizations too.

Cynthia Pong:

Is that that pivot point between when you become the manager, the supervisor, but really like that's separate and distinct from leading as well, but like if you're interested in actually leading, which I think is a very effective way to be a supervisor or manager, we have to change from doing to leading, because a lot of times people are promoted and we talked about this a bit in the before we hit record but people are promoted in this classical model because they were good at doing the thing. They were good at building the widget, they were good at doing the phlebotomy, they were good at assembling the machines and, as you have like, so rightly and well explained in this amazing graphic. I hope everyone looks up that graphic on your LinkedIn to drive home the point that leadership is completely different and super complicated realm, that someone who's good at the things that got them to that role, they might not be good at those things, or they might not have had the training and the support. They might not also be interested in those things. All of those are questions.

Scott Allen:

Well, you see that all the time where the only way forward is to manage. But this is an accountant who didn't really like people all that much.

Cynthia Pong:

Right, yeah, legit, legit, absolutely right, and I literally was having this conversation just last week. One of my clients she's a global director of this multinational pharma corp and she's realizing that one of her direct reports is not interested at all in that. She wants to stay as the individual contributor do the work, that type of thing, and there's no judgment there.

Scott Allen:

No, no, no, no. You have to like people and you have to want to elevate others and you have to. And again, some people's energy isn't necessarily there. I totally get it.

Cynthia Pong:

Yes, and this goes back to the optimizing efficiency question too, which is ideally in an ecosystem there would be some place for that person to go where they can still feel like they can grow, develop and contribute. That doesn't mean they have to be a people manager. I know that's like idealistic and not always possible, but like I feel, like you know, let's strive for the best that we can do within the parameters A hundred percent.

Scott Allen:

And just because you're the best salesperson at the auto dealership doesn't mean you're going to be the best sales manager, right? That's like saying Michael Jordan is going to be a great coach. Yeah, it could be, but it's probably not coach?

Cynthia Pong:

Yeah, it could be, but yeah, it's probably not. Yeah, so it's just like there's so many considerations and, like each leader's journey and also other people who are invested in leaders, we have to think about how do you support people who want to be leaders, to pivot from the doing to the leading. It's way more complicated than it sounds, but it's so important because, like you said, it all starts with that. Who you are is how you lead. Your core of who you are being as a leader is going to dictate all the surface level actions and tactics. You know you could just do tactics for days, but it's not actually going to move the needle if it's really just performative.

Scott Allen:

You know Well. Okay, so, as we wind down, what are some resources that you would like, resources that you have, that you've developed, or are there other resources that stand out for you that people should be aware of, because you've given us some really nice things to think about?

Cynthia Pong:

Yeah.

Scott Allen:

Where can we learn more about you, but then also some resources you've developed. But also are there a couple of resources that stand out as hey. Read this if you're interested in this topic.

Cynthia Pong:

Yeah, okay, there's a lot of options. I'll give you resources by you. Oh okay, that's so funny because I was going to do the opposite. But like, okay, research is from me, You're good, it's all going to be like this soup with me anyways but we will get there in the end.

Scott Allen:

You know it's going to be some good soup.

Cynthia Pong:

Yeah, that's right, because everything got mixed together and it's all like comprehensively tied up. Anyway, so the first thing is definitely check out the Forbes column. So I write for Forbes as a contributor on leadership strategy. So if you just Google Forbes and Cynthia Pong, you'll find it. I write on there about every two weeks or so. But if you go back and I have like some of an archive now that it's been since August or so that I've written for them, there's a good array of things. So you can kind of like pick and choose and like what is interesting to you, because the topics are different but the core is the same. So I talk about the new social contract we have to navigate at work now, communication skills that relate to leadership, how to build trust as a leader introverted leaders, all that stuff Love it how to break through middle management and get to the C-suite. So that episode is really juicy. They actually have the style on that podcast where they bring in one or two real life kind of stories to illustrate, so like there's my part, and then they talk about how it applies. There's like a COO and another C-suite woman who speaks on there. So that's a really good listen.

Cynthia Pong:

And the third thing I'll say I have a leadership skills quiz. That's one of these like BuzzFeed style personality skill things that I made a couple of years ago because I was finding that a lot of the preexisting rubrics, those leadership styles, did not capture what I was seeing in our clients. And so you can take this even if you're not a woman of color. Certainly if you're a woman, you're going to want to take it. I've had white men take it too and find it really helpful because ultimately it gives you another set of words and another toolkit to think about your leadership. So the quiz it takes like 15, 20 minutes to answer these questions and then it gives you words to describe how you lead innately. Do you want me to give the non? Ok?

Scott Allen:

so for sure I'll put links to all those in the show notes.

Cynthia Pong:

Awesome and I'll get those to you. This one's a little wacky, but Never Split the Difference. That negotiation book, yeah, do you think everything communication is negotiation? Everything leadership relates to communication. So I would definitely read or revisit, never Split the Difference. And also I have a colleague, anton Gunn, who his work on leadership is really powerful, so I would check out. He has a number of books and the final one I'll shout out Do I have a copy of it here and I put it on my shelf already. I have a colleague. She also is a faculty member for our Embrace Change coaching certification program, belinda Chu. She has a doctorate in education and her new book is called the EMBA coach playbook.

Cynthia Pong:

So I would check that one out as well.

Scott Allen:

Awesome, cynthia, we're going to do this again. I hope so. No, I hope so. I hope you'll say yes.

Cynthia Pong:

Sounds great, sign me up.

Scott Allen:

Well, you know what I really, really appreciate your time today. Thank you for sharing your wisdom, your practical wisdom. And you know what? Until next time.

Cynthia Pong:

Thank you so much, scott. This was a total pleasure. You're so fun. I got to chat for hours, obviously, so thank you for having me on and thanks for having this podcast. It's so needed.

Scott Allen:

Oh well, thank you so much. Take care, be well. Thank you so much to Cynthia for a wonderful conversation. I so appreciate her wisdom. That is a lot of people to have coached, to have helped, to have really done the work of making sense about their situation and helping them move forward, not only in their careers but in just how to navigate organizational life. So, cynthia, thank you so much for sharing your practical wisdom today. We will have you back for another conversation and for you, the listener. Thank you so much as always for checking in.