Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott J. Allen, Ph.D.

Leadership in Ukraine: Studies During Wartime with Dr. Alexander Negrov and Dr. Ron Riggio

• Scott J. Allen • Season 1 • Episode 278

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Alexander Negrow, Ph.D., is a theologian and leadership researcher with over thirty years of teaching and leadership experience. As the founder and President of Hodos Institute, he leads efforts to impact leadership practices in the United States and his country of birth, Ukraine. He is deeply passionate about advancing spiritual, ethical, and effective leadership, as well as spiritual coaching and guidance. Dr. Negrov integrates all these practices into his broader leadership philosophy. 

Ronald E. Riggio, Ph. D., is the Henry R. Kravis Professor of Leadership and Organizational Psychology and former director of the Kravis Leadership Institute at Claremont McKenna College. He is the author of more than a dozen books and more than 100 research articles and book chapters on leadership, assessment centers, organizational psychology, and social psychology. He's served on the editorial boards of The Leadership Quarterly, Leadership, Group Dynamics, and Journal of Nonverbal Behavior.

A Few Quotes From This Episode

  • “Peace is like air; when it's there, you don't notice it. When it's absent, you suffocate."
  • "Partnership, not competition, became a key theme and practice of Ukrainian leadership during this wartime."
  • "Leadership begins and ends with presence—being there, next to people when they're hurt."

Resources Mentioned in This Episode 

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

About  Scott J. Allen

My Approach to Hosting

  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.


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Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.

Scott Allen  0:00 

Okay, everybody, welcome to Practical Wisdom for Leaders. Thank you so much for being with me today. I have an important conversation that we are about to tee up. I have Alexander Neagrov, and he is the founder and CEO at the Hodos Institute. And a returning guest, Professor Ronald Riggio, and he is a professor of leadership and organizational psychology at the Kravis Leadership Institute at Claremont McKenna College in the United States. Our topic today is a pretty heavy one, and it's a very personal topic for Alexander. And we are going to be talking about leadership in Ukraine. And so, Alexander, thank you so much for being with us. Ron, thank you so much for returning. Very, very, very much appreciate your time. And, Alexander, maybe we start with you. And give us a little bit of a background. The two of you have published this book, ‘Leadership in Ukraine: Studies During Wartime.’ So, maybe take us into the background on this project, and we can start there.

 

Alexander Negrov  0:56 

Well, thank you for the opportunity. I would say that, in some way, this book explores the facets and evolution of leadership in Ukraine during the ongoing war, beginning with the annexation of Crimea in 2014, and then intensifying the war with a full-scale Russian invasion in 2022. So, basically, it's about different angles of leadership when we focus on exploring the mindset, model, and also maturity of leadership among the non-military leaders in Ukraine during the wartime.

 

Scott Allen  1:32 

Well, this is a very, very personal topic for you, sir. Would you talk a little bit about that? 

 

Alexander Negrov  1:36 

Yeah. Basically, I would like to say that the Russian invasion is more than just a military maneuver into the land of sovereign country; it is psychological and spiritual oppression. It's a genocide, ecocide based on lies and manipulation. I visit Ukraine often, with nine trips since the full-scale invasion started in February 22. I plan to travel to Ukraine again at the end of this month in May. And I have been close to combat zones and have met many war victims. Over the past three years, and continuing today, the Russian army continues to commit war crimes, killing civilians, torture, sexual violence, forcibly displacing children into Russian territory. People in the occupied territories live in constant fear, causing trauma, psychological pain. Ukraine suffers tragic losses. Thousands of lives lost, millions displaced, torn families, destroyed infrastructure, and psychological trauma is immense. Ukrainians have endured this terrifying environment for more than three years. One of my research staff in Ukraine resides in Kharkiv, where she works as a school teacher. Scott, you have children, Ron and I have grandkids, so we understand the environment. So, her dream is the following: She said, “I would like to teach children not in a bomb shelter, not in a basement, but in a real classroom with windows.” So, currently, she and her students spend hours daily in a bomb shelter, hiding from the constant threat of rockets and sirens. I have done, very recently, a small research experiment. We asked Ukrainians to share their thoughts about peace. And so, I asked my staff member, she was part of the research team, contributed to our book. So, I asked her, “What peace means to you?” And she said the following, “Peace is like air. When it's there, you don't notice it, you don't focus on it, you don't dream about it. When it's absent, you suffocate. If not with your body, then with your soul.” So, Ukrainians dream about peace more than anyone else. Not just peace, but just peace, and this entails holding those responsible for war crimes and atrocities accountable. Without justice for victims, peace remains fragile, incomplete. I would say that just peace for Ukrainians involves rebuilding what was destroyed; physical infrastructure, homes, schools, hospitals, but it's also rebuilding communities, rebuilding trust and hope. Reparation, both material and symbolic, are essential aspects of justice. For Ukraine, a just peace must include the return of prisoners of war, all civilians captives, including children that have been forcefully taken to Russian territory. And I would say, Ukrainians today are fighting for a lasting peace that must ensure the security, and safety, and dignity of people across all regions of Ukraine. And I would say the leadership that they demonstrate gives me hope that they will not only survive this war, but they will thrive in the post-war times.

 

Scott Allen  5:02 

Talk a little bit about how you entered into this project. I'm fascinated by this, and I do want to jump into some kind of reflections, some learning based on the writing of this book. But would you talk a little bit about that, Ron?

 

Ron Riggio  5:17 

So, gosh, Alexander asked me, close to 20 years ago, to be on the board of the Hodos Institute. And he was doing this good work in Ukraine and developing leadership, and that's essentially what he does. And, around 2014, 2015, after the invasion of Crimea, Alexander said, “Could you help me with some research that we're doing, some survey work, some interviews?” And helping him with the survey construction and interview protocols, and looking at how Ukrainians looked at leadership under the conditions. So, that was the Crimean invasion. And Alexander continued to collect data. We continued to collect data over the years. But then, in 2022, it really ramped up. And so, then we started looking at non-military leadership, so leaders in the community, and how are they viewing the leadership that they're doing in time of war? So, if you're a business leader, a non-profit leader, these are the people that were in our interview group, how were they leading in their organization? But what were they doing to support the war? So, they're talking about, “We have to help the troops.” So, “We're not only taking care of the people in our organization, but we're also contributing to the resistance and to the fight.” One of the things I think that I really learned about working with Alexander in getting to know more about Ukraine is… And I know that a lot of the US listeners don't really understand, but the Ukraine is a very educated country, very high levels of literacy, high levels of people completing bachelor's degree, graduate degrees, higher than the United States, actually. So, you have a very educated group, and people who get into leadership positions there have very sophisticated ideas about what it means to be a leader. And we'll get into this a little bit, and I'll let Alexander tell you a little bit about that. But the one thing that stood out to me was here are people who had undergone… Many of the older leaders were used to the Soviet system. They grew up in the Soviet system, and we all know what that is like. That's a sort of complete dictatorship. And then, when they became free from the Soviet Union, during the separation of the Soviet Union, there was a lot of corruption and issues like that in the government. And what I heard from the leaders is they're saying, “We've seen dictatorship, we've seen corrupt leadership, we don't want that anymore. We want democracy.” And that is their dream now, is to move forward. And, as I was reading all this and we were compiling the book, I kept thinking, “I wish that we could get copies of this to all the US congressmen and senators,” and they would understand how much the Ukrainian people value this democracy, value leadership. And we'll get more into the kinds of leadership they see. And I think they would increase their support for the Ukrainian situation.

 

Scott Allen  8:30 

Well, Alexander, let's go into that a little bit. I think, Ron, you teed that up beautifully. What are some reflections and lessons on leadership that you discovered through the process of writing the book? What stood out for you?

 

Alexander Negrov  8:44 

Yeah. I will just reiterate what Ron just said, that democratic processes in Ukraine started in 91, when Ukraine became independent. But a more dynamic shift and maturity occurred after 2014, and especially in the last decade. So, our book is emphasizing the importance of responsibility, service for common good, personal growth, self-awareness, ethical leadership, spiritual leadership, emotional intelligence in the times of war. Offering insights how Ukrainians from various sectors navigated this aggressive war of Russia against Ukraine. I would like to start with a reflection, and maybe Ron will add his perspective, a reflection on the importance of youth leadership development. So, when the war started with the annexation of Crimea in 2014, what we have done, we explored how various nonprofits, including churches in Ukraine, would organize a leadership training or leadership development among younger generation. And our research has shown that adults in Ukraine, those that were more interested in investing their times and energy into younger generation, they would help young people not only survive, but be prepared to lead and live well with integrity, creativity, and resilience. And when we look into some of the programs and practices of leadership formation or leadership development among the youth, we found this several facets that we felt are important. So, leadership development needs to be holistic in their approach. It's not about teaching skills, but it's about nurturing young people emotionally, socially, and spiritually. Young people would say, “When I will grow up, I would like to be a responsible person.” So, responsibility is the key. And many organization leaders of today would say, “Well, how you show your leadership in the times of war?” Well, take initiative and responsibility. Basically, through those programs, a new generation of organizational leaders were nurtured. Trust and mutual respect are vital. A teamwork is vital. Building self-awareness and confidence, a national dignity. Not national pride, but I would say national dignity. National self-esteem is necessary to preserve and cultivate healthy communities. So, this experience, for us of seeing how adults in Ukraine over the years invested their times in preparing young generation brought good results because, when the full scale war started, many used to be teenagers and young people became key people in the whole movement of resilience and responsibility of taking care of those that being victims of the aggressive weeks of the war.

 

Scott Allen  11:52 

Yeah. Ron, anything you want to add to that?

 

Ron Riggio  11:56 

Yeah. One of the things that we looked at in the research too was young leaders, but I think it ranged up to close to 60 years of age, some of these leaders. But we looked at, sort of how they thought of their own leadership. Their sort of implicit leadership theories. And what I saw a lot of was evidence that they had a kind of an implicit idea about what exemplary leadership looks like, and kind of tying it to theory. So, I guess where I came in and helped Alexander was with bringing in the sort of academic work on leadership, but we saw a lot of sort of transformational qualities. A big emphasis on relationships that we have to support the people that we're leading, we have to inspire them, we have to encourage them, and care. And particularly, I think when we did a study, one of the ways to think of the book is each chapter is kind of like a different research study that we did with a different subgroup of leaders in Ukraine and all post Russian invasion. So, the war, and then, of course, it ramps up in 2022. So, that's the context in working with these different groups over time. And you sort of see this emphasis on that. I think the later surveys that we did when the full-scale war was going, there was lots of evidence of servant leadership, “How can I serve the community?” And so, I think what was remarkable to me was, maybe because of the context of war, it was bringing out the best in these community leaders, business, leaders of religious organizations. It was sort of heartwarming to me and just so encouraging. 

 

Scott Allen  13:33 

Alexander, what do you want to add to that, or what's another observation you had when you think about kind of the lessons on leadership or reflections? 

 

Alexander Negrov  13:43 

I respect you both as experts in leadership studies, but I think not much has been written about leadership in a context where so many people around you live through the trauma, maybe COVID is part of it. So, basically what I would like [Inaudible 14:01] that through our research or through our studies, conversations with organization leaders, we kind of a little bit understood what leadership entails in the context of individual and collective trauma. So, basically, ongoing war in Ukraine caused a deep trauma, and the Ukrainians have been forced to live with fear, anxiety. And you have communities, organizations in different sectors, where people live facing daily danger, their minds and hearts fully preoccupied with daily tragedies. And, in our research, we have found that effective leaders take several steps to support people during these times. For one, effective leaders acknowledge the reality of fear and trauma. So, they understand that people are working under extreme stress. And it is important to recognize their emotional and mental pain and struggles. Secondly, effective leaders reframe performance expectations. In wartime, traditional measures of success don't always make sense. Instead of focusing on the results, effective leaders look at the effort, resilience, adaptability. Many effective leaders or people that would say, “This or that person is effective leaders,” Why? Because they do regular check-ins. They try to understand people, how they're doing mentally, emotionally. And they provide more encouragement, rather than pressure for performance. I would say, effective leaders in a wartime redefine success and reward. So, success during war means simply staying alive, being present, helping others. When the war began, many Ukrainian leaders, they had no experience, but somehow, many learned from each other. They started to kind of practice this paying their staff, even if the employee would not show up at work. Why? Well, because if that or another person is not at work, then probably they're busy helping the community. And supporting the community is leadership too, even if you're not performing at work. Effective leaders find proper approach to hiring, retaining, and training. Wartime; flexibility is the key. Patience, flexibility, mercies, being gracious is the key. People may leave suddenly, and so organizations try to encourage freedom cross-training, so people could have opportunity to kind of do the work with your stuff available. And I would say, in a wartime within an organization, it is so important to continue to communicate hope and purpose, common purpose, continued work, continue to pay taxes, continue to generate this product or service, continue to fight even if it's hard to believe that the victory piece will be tomorrow. And then remind the common purpose, why we're doing what we're doing. So, that is very helpful to understand how our leadership within organization works in the times when there is a huge trauma.

 

Scott Allen  17:20 

Well, it sounds like, and you write about this in the book, that this service-oriented form of leadership, and that connective kind of horizontal form collective leadership is a strength, and it's a glue, in the sense that we are supporting one another and we are into this together, there's strong relationships. And again, as Ron said, and I think, Alexander, you just said it, there's a service orientation to leadership. Is that accurate? 

 

Alexander Negrov  17:47 

Yes. Yes, it is. One of the other important observation, I never heard, maybe there is a concept, maybe there is a theory behind, but I never really heard this idea of leadership of presence. 

 

Scott Allen  18:01 

Talk about that. 

 

Alexander Negrov  18:02 

Okay. Well, when I traveled to Ukraine in a wartime, I met people. I listened to their stories. We did interviews, etc. I learned that leadership begins and ends with a presence, which means being there next to people when they're hurt, standing with them when everything is falling apart. And leadership is not about just making decisions, giving recommendations, sometimes it’s just being with people when there's so much uncertainty. Just be still, listen, be attentive, and say nothing when they're in pain, in confusion, in doubt, because, when you're next to them, physically, spiritually, emotionally, you bring some trust, peace. They become calm. In our studies, we have heard so many kind of ideas that good leadership in the wartime; stay calm and help others to stay calm. Be with them. Don't leave. Don't run from people. Stay with them. And when I traveled, but I also heard from Ukrainians to Ukrainians who live in Ukraine, they would say, “Your presence or because you've been here, you visited us, means so much. Means a lot.” So basically, presence builds trust, resilience, connection, and a strong foundation for a lasting impact. Just being there. Being there for people.

 

Scott Allen  19:33 

Ron, how did you internalize that? I'm not thinking of a ready-made theory that we can go to here, but that presence and that consistency, and that… Just, how do you frame that? How do you think about it?

 

Ron Riggio  19:43 

I think it's about the relationship issue of reaching out to fellow human beings, and just that idea that I'm here as a support, a help. One of the other studies that we did, it's in the book, is not just of leaders in Ukraine, but leaders who are working with refugees. And many of those, Alexander, they were Christian leaders, church-based leaders, and there's a focus on the spirituality, on the sort of nourishing of the soul for people who have been displaced. And the things that we hear from those leaders is, “We have to be here to help, but we also have to be here to protect the people in this community, to support them, provide encouragement.” And who knows how long many of those people are going to be displaced? There's a bit of clarity too. So, this was research that we had interview protocols, so we asked them about the good behaviors. We also asked them about what were the negative behaviors you're seeing that are maybe problematic? And I think there we get the sort of flip side of this. So, essentially, what they said is, “When people start to put their personal goals over the collective goals, the team goals.” And we think about the sort of personalized, the selfish kind of leadership. So, they really mentioned that. The inability to come up with common goals, with shared goals. So, that was another indicator of what they considered to be bad leadership. A lack of trust. That there has to be trust, there has to be that feeling of community. And then, obviously, I think, in terms of the rejection of self-centered leaders, they see arrogance as something that's very negative. Of course, dishonesty and an unwillingness to support other people. So, when you start to focus on your own needs and not the collective needs. So, looking at both sides, I think it gives us a sense that these people are really going through a kind of development in terms of their own capacity to lead.

 

Alexander Negrov  21:51 

Well, when I talk to Ukrainians from different social strata, they would say that war reveals good and bad leadership in strikingly clear ways. So, some individuals, of course, in Ukraine through the years, demonstrated, and unfortunately, continue to demonstrate poor leadership. I would like to a little bit give you some context. For example, leaving people behind. In a positive sense, leadership is a leadership of presence, but it happens that leaders abandon the most vulnerable, put in a priority their own safety, escaping before the danger is there. They're already left because they protect themselves. Or shear manipulation. Some leaders explore fear, control of others, spreading panic or uncertainty to maintain the power. And two interesting points that many Ukrainian non-military leaders, civilians would point as toxic or bad leadership; one is spread division. Put people against one another because, basically, in a wartime, to undermine unity is to risk losing hope for victory, for freedom, for independency. You cannot play with that. You have to stay united. So, this is very important. And secondly, in a wartime, people are very sensitive to authenticity of what we could call patriotism. So, for Ukrainians, patriotism is not the national language, though it is. It's not about national flag, yet it is. But it's acting authentically as a person who loves the country, loves people, cares for the country, care for the countrymen, and serves, and basically, finds the ways and means to take care of those that you need and serve for the well-being of communities, thinking in a mostly positive way and optimistically how they could contribute to the well being of Ukraine in a post-war period. So, true patriots; staying in Ukraine, serve for Ukraine, and optimistic about the future of Ukraine.

 

Scott Allen  24:08 

Well, as I'm listening to both of you speak, in this tragedy, is an opportunity for people to shine, everyday people. Kouzes and Posner have that book ‘Everyday People, Extraordinary Leadership.’ I'm envisioning thousands and millions of stories of individuals who have stayed, have remained present, and have made a difference in their own small way, in a large way, in a medium way, but in a way to help advance those elements that you just mentioned, Alexander. And, of course, you have the other side of that, people who have fled, but I'm just imagining thousands of people doing small acts of good to try and push forward. Did you see that in the research as well? 

 

Alexander Negrov  24:49 

Oh, yes. A comment that stayed with me, and then I observed it, one person said that during times of war and tragedy, partnership, but not competition. And partnership, collaboration, cooperation, working together became a key theme and practice of Ukrainian leadership during this wartime. When young kids are trying to raise money to support army, where civilians are preparing food for the soldiers. I was once at a train station in Kyiv, there was a nice choir singing. Everyone was quiet, and I was asking, “What happened?” Apparently, a dead body of a soldier came to a train station and everyone was quiet. One person, one tragedy is a national tragedy. In a sense, when people cooperate and support one another, that helps them not only survive, but it helps them to see how they could rebuild the country. And partnership, not competition. I think this is a major theme for Ukraine beyond this time. I'm really hopeful that they will keep that theme and cultivate that theme because some people would say, “We've been through the war, but we’ve never been through post-war period. We don't really know what will happen.” So, if they could preserve their best, what they demonstrate so far, that will be so important.

 

Ron Riggio  26:21 

I think the thing that stood out when we asked them about, “What do you see post-war? What do you see in the future?” Was how optimistic and hopeful they were, but they did… And I think this is the issue you have to realize that a war, and particularly, a war like this, a sovereign nation that's invaded by another, in our modern times, it's relatively unique. As they say, this hasn't happened in Europe since World War II. Our understanding of leadership has advanced so much since that time. The other thing that they're talking about in the future is what Alexander mentioned about that the people are traumatized. This is a situation that is so different to such an extreme circumstance as to be involved in an invasion during wartime, that most people in the nation are going to be traumatized. So, one of the things that they mention is that, “We have to care for this. We have to help people recover to get through this trauma.” We think about the pandemic that the world just went through, and it did cause trauma. But we're talking now about multiple years of this extreme situation. But what I think comes out of this that's very positive is the optimism and the hope for the future. 

 

Scott Allen  27:38 

Well, Alexander, as we begin to wind down our time, is there anything else that you want people to know about this work or to know about this topic? I want folks to purchase the book. I want them to explore this more deeply. But is there anything else you want to make sure you say?

 

Alexander Negrov  27:56 

I think one of the main contribution of our book is not only providing the results of analysis of collected data, but we have excerpts of interviews. So, for many people that do not speak Ukrainian, you have access to the samples of interviews from organization leaders, from different sectors, from women who are displaced, young people who reflect on what they perceive as good or bad leadership, how they demonstrate leadership during the war, what they think, what type of good leadership Ukrainians need after war. I think that will be a very eye-opening. There could be some universal things related to values, and main themes, and practices of leadership, but there could be a very good introduction to a Ukrainian culture, Ukrainian nation, and Ukrainian values. And maybe it will be also reassurance that it is important to stand with Ukraine and support Ukraine. And build bridges, economical, political bridges, cultural bridges with Ukraine after the war.

 

Scott Allen  29:12 

Well, you have a very, very unique and valuable kind of seat, so to speak, that you've been following this for years. You've been following this through different stages. And I just think that's fascinating. I absolutely… This is just incredible work because I don't know of any other research in modern times, as you all just spoke of, that is really exploring this topic while it's happening in a setting, in a context. And it warmed my heart, at least, in this very tragic story, to hear of this servant orientation, and the presence, and being together, and being there for others, not for self. And yes, hopefully that carries forward as the rebuilding begins. 

 

Alexander Negrov  30:03 

Yes. When we submitted this book, I was hoping that it would be published few months after the war will end. Unfortunately, it's still happening. So, it was a good time, and not for the book, but it's still meaningful. So meaningful.

 

Ron Riggio  30:17 

Yeah. The thing I think of is that hope that we’ll continue the work, hope that we'll be able to see the recovery part of this. But it is kind of like a work in progress because, as Alexander mentioned, he's going back to Ukraine here soon. And, in fact, just came back not that long ago. So, he's been making many trips over there because he's working with… He's still doing leader development with the folks, the non-military leaders in Ukraine. They still have that thirst for developing themselves, and so he's going in there and doing workshops. Not under the best of conditions, I can tell you that.

 

Alexander Negrov  30:55 

My approach working in Ukraine is not more like giving advice, or kind of recommendation, but mostly facilitating the conversations. What we have learned about leadership, how we became better leaders during the war, and what still needed to be reflected through and improved. When you facilitate, you see this is the best approach that I found in leadership development so far.

 

Scott Allen  31:25 

well, and in a way, you're present with them. You're there as a thinking partner and a guide on the side, so to speak, who's helping them make sense of… Well, to the two of you, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you so much for this good work. Listeners, there are links in the show notes, so please click there and support this incredible work because it's an important topic, and you have a book here filled with really, really important insights. To the two of you, thank you so much. 

 

Alexander Negrov  31:58 

Thank you for inviting us. 

 

Ron Riggio  31:59 

Thank you, Scott.

 

 

[End Of Recording]