Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott J. Allen, Ph.D.

Mastering Your Awareness Quotient: Leading in Complex Environments with Brian Cunningham

• Scott J. Allen • Season 1 • Episode 271

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On his journey from a Parking Lot Attendant to CEO, Brian Cunningham has studied the leadership/followership dynamic at every level within a complex organization. As a life-long student of leadership and an explorer of numerous paths of expanded awareness, Brian has sought to uncover the larger possibilities of our service as a leader. Most importantly, we need to integrate these discoveries into the day-to-day practice of leading in our increasing complexity.

As a reflection of these many years of ongoing study, research, and real-life application, Brian has written three groundbreaking books that illuminate the keys to our developmental progression into the highest levels of leadership service. His most recent book, Leadership: The Universal Principles, details the two universal principles that are foundational to our growth in leadership and in life. This book provides a practical framework that can be used to create your unique path of leadership mastery.

A Few (Awesome) Quotes From This Episode

  • “Leaders and followers are just two sides of the same coin, and we cannot move through significant complexity without each other."
  • “Whatever I think or read pales in comparison to what reality teaches you.”

Resources Mentioned in This Episode 

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

About  Scott J. Allen

My Approach to Hosting

  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.


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Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.

Scott Allen  0:00  

Okay, everybody, welcome to the Phronesis podcast. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world. Today, I have Brian Cunningham. And on his journey from a parking lot attendant to CEO, Brian has studied the leadership-followership dynamic at every level within a complex organization. As a lifelong student of leadership and an explorer of numerous paths of expanded awareness, Brian has sought to uncover the larger possibilities of our service as a leader, and most importantly, to then integrate these discoveries into the day-to-day practice of leading in our increasing complexity. As a reflection of these many years of ongoing study, research and real-life application, Brian has written three groundbreaking books that illuminate the keys to our developmental progression into the highest levels of leadership service. His most recent book, ‘Leadership: The Universal Principles,’ details the two universal principles that are foundational to our growth in leadership and in life. The book provides a practical framework that can be used to create your own unique path of leadership mastery. Sir, thank you so much. Zooming in from Nebraska this morning, so good to be with you. Thank you for your time. What's not in your bio and what should listeners know about you? What's something not in there? 

 

Brian Cunningham  1:17  

What's not in there is I’m a human being like everybody else trying to figure it out, and messing up, and doing some good things now and then. That's what's not in the bio.

 

Scott Allen  1:28  

I am very, very excited for this conversation, Brian, because, as your bio suggests, you've led complex organizations, and you are also passionate about the literature, and you're also writing and working to make sense of this conversation around leadership and followership. And I love in the bio, yes, ‘the complexity that leaders are facing.’ And I can't think of, maybe you can, but I cannot think of a more difficult organization to lead in than healthcare today. Maybe in wartime, that might be another level, but in a general, “I'm going to work today, see you later,” I can't think of a more complex industry than healthcare because the 24/7 nature of the work, the regulations they're in. We've got Press Ganey scores. We've got Joint Commission. We've got state. We've got the technology and the innovation that's happening so rapidly in that space. We have a system that oftentimes was built on a labor force that we got a lot out of people without paying them a whole lot of money for years and years and years at times. And so, the complexity in leading that, I just have incredible respect for that. It's just awe-inspiring. It really, really is.

 

Brian Cunningham  2:42  

Thank you so much for that, Dr. Allen. I remember reading about that. I was reading Peter Drucker notes back in the day. And late in his life, he also came to that same conclusion. He did some work in healthcare later in life and had that same conclusion that this is the most complex industry for all the reasons you mentioned. And then, at the core of it, on any given day, people are being brought into the world, people are exiting the world. People are being born, people are dying. The drama, the trauma, the emotion that goes through every single day, it's quite an interesting challenge and a great place to serve, a great place to learn and grow. That's where we grow, when we're put in those kinds of situations, all of us. And so, daily, as a leader in healthcare, you are sort of put in front of those kinds of situations. Tremendous growth, tremendous opportunities to serve

 

Scott Allen  3:35  

Well, what I would love to start with today, because we're going to get to those two universal principles, I want to get there, but are there any reflections that you have of some of those significant learnings that you experienced while navigating through that? How long did you serve in the role as CEO? 

 

Brian Cunningham  3:54

Almost 11 years. 

 

Scott Allen  3:54  

Wow. That's a significant tenure, sir.

 

Brian Cunningham  3:59

Yeah. And it was part of talking about a developmental progression. I still felt like a parking lot attended the whole time. I can still park cars really well. And, along the way, the universe sort of pulls you along, your intent pulls you along. So, I was grounded in the real work of leadership, and it was just part of the progression.

 

Scott Allen  4:19  

Now, what are some of those observations that you learned about yourself in that role? What stands out?

 

Brian Cunningham  4:24  

That there, essentially, is no self. That we are one, we are connected. Complexity pulls us along. Whatever I think, or whatever I read, or whatever I theorize sort of pales in comparison to what reality teaches you. And, as complexity increases, these things that you thought or things that you hoped, they just are worn down, worn away. And what you're left with is the reality of our leadership service, which is we are in this together, leaders and followers are just two sides of the same coin. And we cannot move through significant complexity without each other. That's what I'm clear about. This is how we do this thing, it's together. Only together can we do this.

 

Scott Allen  5:11  

Well, that's so beautifully said. Last night, I was struggling to sleep, and so I made the mistake of pulling up LinkedIn, and it's probably like 4:00 A.M. And I'm scrolling, and this little clip of Jennifer Garvey Burger shows up, and she said something to the effect of the only hope you have is that you're creating a space where all of us feel like we can work together and figure out a path forward when it comes to complexity. And if you don't have that, you're literally flying blind. She didn't say that, but generally speaking, yes. There's no one we can call on the world to say, “Hey, how do we move forward here? Can you give me the three steps?” That doesn't exist. And so, do I have a team that feels like they have the psychological safety where we can put the problem at the center of the table, kind of interrogate it, and come up with our best guess as to the path forward? Because it’s, again, what you endured for 11 years as CEO. And you're right, people aren't at their best at times, families aren't at their best at times. When a mistake is made in health care, that's a significant event. It's not, “Sorry, I put cheese on your burger.” It's much more significant than that. And so, I just have great respect. And I couldn't agree more that we need one another when it comes to charting a path forward through complexity. Well, you've written three books, and I would love to move into these universal principles. The two universal principles. So, maybe we start with your first and then we can see where the conversation takes us. AQ. AQ. What do we got here?

 

Brian Cunningham  6:56  

Guys, you know what? We'll weave that all together kind of see where it goes. So, in talking about the two universal principles, I, like many people, are trying to distill things down to some level of simplicity within this complexity. So, over time, you read about all these theories, opinions, methods, and tools, but sometimes they fail you in certain situations, in certain levels of complexity. So, as I backed up or deepened my work and my investigation of what leadership is really about, these two universal principles sort of came to the forefront. And the first one is it all starts and ends with awareness. And so, it sounds simple. It's like, “Well, yeah, great.” But there's depth to that statement. What is awareness? And there's a ton of literature out there, ton of opinion out there. My approach because of my background parking cars, or as an occupational therapist for licensed OT for 20 years, long history practicing in martial arts, it has to work. It has to be functional. So, you can get really twisted up with the different research on what awareness is, or what consciousness is, or what this or that is. And so, my approach is to look at function because, in the workplace, on the ground, it has to work. In healthcare, it has to work. In so many other areas, if it doesn't work, you need to do something different. This is a functional approach. So, it's clarification of what awareness really is. People confuse or interchange things like consciousness and awareness, or call up conscious awareness. This or that, or focused awareness. And this lack of precision in our understanding of terms really is a limiting factor for us. So first, in that statement is to understand, functionally, what awareness really is. And briefly, we could differentiate consciousness being the field, better called the field of consciousness. Like that energetic, vibrational, informational matrix of the universe, the web of life. We do not as much have consciousness as we are conscious from our consciousness from a functional standpoint. And so, it's everything. It's the whole universe. It's the place where all phenomena manifest, are sustained, and then disintegrate back into this field. Now, awareness is not separate from consciousness, but it's not the same thing. Awareness, we could look at it as the perceptual element of consciousness. So, if consciousness is the field, then awareness is our perception of the field. And we can then go into some further terms, the levers of our awareness. We can be clear about awareness. Okay, so what? How do we apply it? How does it function? And it appears to function through a couple of different levers, and they are our attention, our focus, and our intent. And these terms get mixed up; focused attention, focused awareness. Our attention we could look at as our directional discrimination, our ability to point and hold and frame a bundle of perception within the field of awareness. It's like a video camera. Well, our focus is like the lens of the video camera that controls our immersion into the scene of our attention. And its function is to help us extract more and more subtle or gross information, to see the details of things, and also to zoom back out and see the larger relationships. And our intent, we could look at as sort of the core impulse, or sort of the core catalyst for our being and doing in the world. This is the why behind our why behind our why. This is the key driver. And these things, like these levers of our awareness, our awareness attention, focus, and intent, make up our individuated unit of perception in the world. This is how we move through. And when we're clear, we have a more precise understanding of how they function, now we can use it. “Oh, my attention is wandering,” come back. Come back. But now that I'm back, how do I extract as much information as possible? That's the lens of our focus. What helps us to come back? That's our connection with our core intent. So, we can start to play with these things in a way that helps to expand our awareness and all the things that go along with that. So, first is the understanding of awareness before we get into our awareness quotient.

 

Scott Allen  11:33  

So, give me an example. You're leading an organization, and take me into those definitions or those terms. We've got attention, focus, intent. We've got awareness. And then under awareness is attention, focus, intent. So, bring me into a situation, maybe, that you experienced, where it's just grounded in that hardcore example.

 

Brian Cunningham  11:58  

Here's a real easy one, it's there all the time. In any given meeting, in any given organization, there could be the full continuum of activity going on, from a sort of sense of decorum to complete chaos. Usually leans towards a little bit more chaos when you get a bunch of smart, creative people in a room to try to hash something out. Egos are involved, all these things. So, when you are aligned with your awareness, attention, focus, and intent, you enter the room with this sense of presence, purpose, that core intent. You exercise your attention on what's going on in the room. You are not distracted by shiny objects, squirrels running around chasing nuts. Any of that. You're clear about who you are and why you're here, and that is to serve and support everybody in that room. Whatever we're attempting to solve is just the structure for us getting together to do what we're really here to do as humans, which is to connect, serve, and support each other. So, with this alignment, you can maintain your attention on what needs to be accomplished, on who you are serving. You can use your focus to try to understand what people are going through, the question behind their questions. So, you can extract a lot more information out of that scene, a real meeting. And you are aligned in this way with this expanded awareness. You see things that some people don't see. They're distracted. Their awareness is contracted by fear or anger, so you're open and free to act and respond to what's needed in that moment. And you can create an environment and influence an environment and pull a group of people along of various backgrounds into a situation that creates them as their best selves so that they can be as productive as possible. And that is the experience. That's one of the core purposes of leadership, to create experience for others that they can step into the next best version of themselves. So, that simple alignment, simple on paper, really is the core of how to interact with others. It represents the vertical development. Universal principle one, we could consider it our vertical development. And universal too, we can consider as the horizontal development of our leadership, the being and doing of our leadership. That's a straightforward, simple example. So, if we can then segue that into this concept of our awareness quotient. So, now if we play with consciousness awareness, the levers of awareness; attention, focus, and intent, so what? What do we do with that? Where do we apply this? And this concept of awareness quotient sort of started to rise up. I understood IQ, I understood EQ, AQ seems sort of obvious to me. I started to do a literature search on there, there was nothing there. I didn't really understand that, so I just kept staring. I used the levers of awareness to attempt to discern out of what was coming up to understand this concept more and more. So, this concept of our AQ, our awareness quotient became clear to me. And so, our awareness quotient could be seen as sort of that some measure of the depth and clarity of our awareness as it is applied across the four domains of our experience in life. And we will talk about those real quickly, but our AQ could be looked at as applied awareness. Applied to what? Applied to the four domains of our experience, and they are our internal environment, our thoughts, our feelings, our emotions, our beliefs, and the awareness out of which all those arise. Our bodily sensations, all that stuff. Some people use the term self-awareness, sometimes it's a limited operational definition. “Well, that's our awareness of our strengths and weaknesses, all that,” well, that's just a scratch in the surface of what's in this thing. So, this is the depth of who we are and why we're here as a human being. The second domain is our clarity of our perception of our external environment. These are those things that appear to be outside of us. It's all connected. There is no separation, but we can separate them to talk about it. This is all the other people; our environment, the structures that surround us, systems, processes, our institutions, our social constructs, our technologies, all that. Their depth of awareness of all those. Third one is the integration of internal and external. This is the critical one. This is the overlay. The connection, the very real connection. The dynamic tension that exists between inner and outer, and how we dance with that and we play with that. This is really how we perform in the world. So, you can have the depth of awareness of the universal secrets. And you can understand all the external environmental factors of your business, your industry, but if you can't put those together, and play within them, and integrate, and work with other human beings, you don't understand that dance, you will not be as effective as a leader in our complexity. And the fourth domain is our depth of clarity of our perception with the deeper purpose of life itself. That sort of core driver of our being and doing. And interestingly, this can be approached from a religious or spiritual standpoint as well as scientific standpoint. This is that core driver, and our connection with it is supportive of all the other domains. So now, in universal principle number one, it all starts and ends with awareness. We got to have a functional model for awareness and its drivers, and its application in the four domains of our experience in life. And then, the next question is, so what? What do we do with that? Well now we apply that to anything and everything; our studies in school, our hobbies, and, of course, leadership. And when we do that, when we apply our awareness and with the understanding of the domains of experience, then this whole thing starts to open up. We come to a deeper understanding of whatever it is; physics, art, sports, and, of course, leadership. And this is where we can perceive and experience the developmental progression of leadership itself. This leads us into universal principle number two, which is all life unfolds along a natural developmental progression. Acorns turn into oak trees. Little eggs turn into chickens, or whatever. Everything develops. School, we learn to crawl before we walk and walk before we run. School, kindergarten all the way up to PhD level work. Everything. Sports, Little League.  Basketball, you learn, you dribble with two hands, then one. Everything follows a developmental progression, Dr. Allen, except leadership. 

 

Scott Allen  19:15

(Laughs)

 

Brian Cunningham  19:15

So, that was my application, attempting to integrate developmental theory, which I was studying and experiencing as an occupational therapist, as a martial arts practitioner. I think you made a comment in one of your podcasts with this talking about development. You said something karate has figured this out. You got white belt, you got this. But leadership struggles. So, my desire to integrate all these paths, I applied it to leadership. And lo and behold, application of awareness to leadership and the developmental progression opens up for you. And so, I was able to sort of map out experientially what that looks like from that typical authoritarian leadership approach. Where it comes from. What level of complexity it came out of. And how as complexity increased from industrial age to information age to knowledge age and beyond. How that spawned the leadership requirements for that level of complexity, and how to move along with it, and what the real work of leadership was to move along the developmental progression. That was the other discovery, that this is not just an intellectual exploration. Look at, “Well, we got this, we got that. We got this level of development goes into this.” This is what you experience. and how you can move along with it in the workplace is through the actual work of leadership, the real work. That's our tool for transformation as a leader. Yeah, reading is helpful. Research; extremely helpful. But nothing takes the place of the experience, just like anywhere else in the world. So, that universal principle one leads into universal principle two, that's the vertical, that's the horizontal. They're integrated, and we can map and talk about our movement from authoritarian leadership to information agent, evidence-based leadership; to the knowledge agent, coaching leadership; to the understanding agent, transformational leadership; to the wisdom agent, servant leadership, and on and on. There's another five levels of leadership that emerged and are mapped out all the way up to unified leadership, this experience of our oneness and how that impacts our service as a leader and our problem-solving capabilities. So, it's all grounded in the real work of leadership, our real service as a leader.

 

Scott Allen  21:45  

if you are consistently bringing back attention, focus, and intent, seeing the larger kind of dynamics at play, keeping us focused here -- kind of this is who we are, what we stand for, why we're in business, what we're doing, this is what we can control -- you're almost in some ways, would you argue, helping those around you develop as well because their minds become more aware of focusing on, probably, higher order initiatives, objectives, priorities? I don’t know. React to what I just said. (Laughs)

 

Brian Cunningham  22:21  

I think you are right on. What it does is it opens the door for them to do those things you said; to step into the next best version of themselves. Higher-order thinking. Expands their awareness. And the interesting thing, what I also had to figure out, discover along the way, is, how do we help people do that? It's not through a lecture. This is the interesting thing. Many approaches to leadership and group dynamics rely on you gotta go do a retreat, and everybody's got to know what the deal is, what the thing is. This approach does not require that. I don't have to give a presentation on awareness and developmental approaches, I just need to be present in that and open the door. And you do that through the real work of leadership. And we do that at specific states and stages. How to help people focus on the problem at hand, to do a problem exploration, and to perform a little bit of research to move them beyond their fixed opinions. “Yeah, I hear you, but let's just do a little research. Let's look at this.” And automatically, as you know, Dr. Allen, when you do a little research, your perspective is automatically expanded. That's just how it works. So, using the real work of leadership to create an expansion and awareness, maybe a little bit, and maybe it's only temporary, but you can do that in each and every meeting to help people, over time, expand their perspective and step into the ability to manage further complexity. So yes. 

 

Scott Allen  23:58

You have to be so on your game.

 

Brian Cunningham  24:00  

Only requirement of this. Like other approaches, everybody to know, and this, and be committed. There's only one requirement for this approach, and that's you gotta be on your team. Like anything else, as you move along developmentally, it is your game. The game becomes you. You are the path, and it becomes easier and easier. The workplace, the complexity will often try to pull you off. There's professionals out there of drama, they have to pull you into the drama triangle with them. That's how they sort of make sense of themselves. And so, you just have to be present, centered. And over time with practice, you can do it better and better. It's never perfect. Sometimes you get tugged, but then you can come back to center. So, yeah, you gotta be on your game. You become the game. 

 

Scott Allen  24:52  

Yeah. Well, there's also, to your point, I think where I would struggle, this is just me reflecting in real-time, is that kind of detachment piece. I think you just mentioned it. Sometimes you get pulled in a little bit. So, I can get pulled into the emotional element and domain of this. But talk about that process of… As I listen to you, I almost think of like an almost a detached. This does not mean disengaged, or not aware, or not present, but there's a lack of emotion as you watch these actors play out in front of you. And you can watch without judgment because this is where their frame of mind, or their complexity of mind is. And then you are reacting and trying to, again, maintain attention, focus, intent. What did you observe about your process of staying detached? And that might be the wrong word, so correct the word if you have a different word.

 

Brian Cunningham  25:50  

It was my word for a very long time; detachment. But what I was experiencing as I moved along the developmental progression, like any developmental progression, you don't move from one state or stage to the next and leave the other one behind. You integrate it. So, you are sort of bigger, larger. So, you bring all this with you, but it's integrated and it gets expressed in a more productive understanding way. So, over time, I've sort of dropped the word detachment, it feels like I'm just more involved. I understand the emotions. As you go along the developmental progression, you are able to meet people where they are. So, if there's emotion there, you do that with understanding. You're side by side with them. Meet them where they are as you start to walk forward. So, the word detachment is sort of dropped away a bit. I feel even more engaged. It's this experience of being connected in one. I'm not detached from it. I understand the concept of detachment, not getting pulled by other things. So, that word does work, but the experience along the developmental progression of anything is that you understand all points along the progression and can identify with it, empathize with them. They are us, and therefore you can work side by side. Connected with others, not above them. And that way you can create a more sort of genuine experience and potential pathway forward.

 

Scott Allen  27:19  

Well, I think we have definitely piqued some interests. And I think, for listeners, there's going to be a lot of links in the show notes, and so you can learn more about Brian's thinking. You can purchase the book and explore. Brian, is there anything else you want to say about the concept about the book right now before we begin to wind down our time? What do you think?

 

Brian Cunningham  27:43  

Well, I've tried to just share this in a way that others may be able to connect with, and while still honoring all other research everybody. Else's approach, they all work, they all contribute to our movement forward. I would just share maybe a theme throughout all three books, and it's a quote from the last one. I think it's the last line of the book, and it's just something I'd leave everyone with, and that is my experience along the developmental progression of leadership. I would say that the path of leadership is wide enough to accommodate all of our theories and opinions, yet long enough to wear them all down until there's nothing left to impede us on our journeys of service. That's the experience along the developmental progression. At some point, we have to let go of what we think we know and just move into the experience of service, which is what we're really here to do in very real ways based on the specific needs of our environment, the needs of the people that we serve. So, not just 50,000 feet, this is the reality on the ground. That's what dictates what's needed from our leadership. So, that's what I would say. Hey, let's keep going with our theories. Let's keep going with our research. Let's keep going with our tools, tactics, and strategies. But at some point, you will drop them, leave them behind, and step into pure service.

 

Scott Allen  29:19  

Stepping into pure service. I like that phrasing. Wow. A couple of things come to mind for me. Brian, how you're mentioning the ground, but then you're also living at 50,000 feet. So, that's a wide space, which I very, very much respect. Another thing that was kind of coming to mind for me as you're speaking was you have Keegan's book ‘Deliberately Developmental Organizations.’ And I think a lot of the adult development theory is wonderful, and how do we operationalize that? How do we ensure that it's actually creating environments where people can develop vertically, if we want to use that phrasing, in place where they are? And so, I think you're highlighting another way, or another path forward for how some of that work can be done. And to what we were speaking about a few moments ago, I think it requires that you as a leader have really, really, really, in many ways, you're on the path of working to master that yourself so you can help others maintain that attention, focus, and intent. And really bringing it back to that because, as you mentioned, the noise, and just the squirrel, and all of that's going on, they are distractions, oftentimes. And I think people's minds are distracted in different ways and for different reasons, and you are there to help bring it back into focus and keep us on path. So, we can promote development, we can promote that increase in complexity of mind simply by how we approach the activity of leading others. And I hadn't thought about that before, so I very much appreciate that perspective. I hope I'm capturing it correctly. If not, by all means, push back. But I appreciate how you're thinking. I really, really do. And, for listeners, there's a bunch of links in the show notes, so please feel free to click on those so that you can learn more.

 

Brian Cunningham  31:16  

Leadership in and of itself is a tool for transformation, individual and collective. So, we have all this programming that's on everybody that impacts awareness, our ability to act and choose, and this is a pathway to move forward with a sense of ease and grace in our service.

 

Scott Allen  31:35  

Mmm. Well, Brian, I always wind down the conversation by asking guests what they've been reading, or listening to, or streaming. What's been on your radar in recent times? It might have something to do with what we've discussed right now, it may have nothing to do with what we've discussed. Maybe you're just watching a lot of Cornhusker football, I don't know. But what's been on your radar? What's caught your attention, sir?

 

Brian Cunningham  31:55  

Streaming. There's a lot of interesting stuff out there. I think the one that I would highlight that sort of is related to what we've been talking about here, I gotta go with Cobra Kai.

 

Scott Allen  32:06

Oh, really? Same here. 

 

Brian Cunningham  31:55

Oh my gosh, right? So, Cobra Kai is that series from the ‘80s cult classic, Karate Kid. And it traces the development of the key characters like Daniel Sun and Johnny Lawrence of Cobra Kai, and their growth. Right now, they're old guys. And their growth along sort of their lives and how they express themselves. There's so many leadership tie-ins there, followership, personal growth. It's a great series. It's funny as heck. Great 1980s kind of cheese in there. Just the right amount of cheese. Great tunes. ‘80s tunes.

 

Scott Allen  32:44  

Yeah. Montage music. (Laughs)

 

Brian Cunningham  32:47  

Oh, yes. So, I'd go with Cobra Kai. That's the one that hit me the most. I think it was just amazing. Books; I like, lately, kind of that quantum physics. Not like the math part, like Dr. June (?Kurvan?)cosmic hologram, writes mind-blowing stuff. And you can get a sense of how that might apply to reality, those kind of things. So, books, leadership. I'm a big fan. Bob Anderson, Bill Adams, ‘Mastering Leadership,’ ‘Scaling Leadership.’ And the work that Bob Anderson is doing, it takes it far beyond that. Those guys really just blow my mind and help me sort of stay centered and focused. Are some of the things I'm playing with.

 

Scott Allen  33:30  

Well, when I think of Karate Kid, yeah, I'm a child of the ‘80s so I just loved Karate Kid. And, “You're the best around…” But yeah, my kids can't watch it. I love it. And I'd never thought about Johnny and Daniel; their development forward. And so, I'd never thought about it through that lens. That's very, very cool. Okay, sir. Well, I really, really appreciate your time today. Thank you very, very much. Thank you for advancing how we're thinking about the topic of leadership. I think you're thinking in very, very cool ways, innovative ways. And again, it's all grounded in, “I got to operationalize this tomorrow, and what are we going to do? And how do we do that work?” So, thank you so much. I appreciate it. 

 

Scott Allen  34:23

Here is an individual who has moved from parking lot attendant to CEO. Seen every level and learned along the way. And as you noticed in that episode, he is thinking big. I joked at one point at about 50,000 feet, which I just love those conversations where my own thinking is being challenged. And so, I appreciate that, Brian, thank you very, very much. Keep thinking, keep working to make some of these really complex things a little bit more actionable. I think it's absolutely wonderful. As always, everyone, thank you so much for checking in. Take care. Be well.

 

 

[End Of Recording]