Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott J. Allen, Ph.D.

Crafting a ‘Yes/And’ Mindset: A Formula for Collaboration & Creativity with Bob Kulhan

• Scott J. Allen • Season 1 • Episode 269

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Bob Kulhan is a professor at the Duke University Fuqua School of Business and an elite improv and sketch comedian. Bob is the Founder & CEO of Business Improv® – a 25-yr-old consultancy linking improvisation to business through behavioral sciences. His focus: People Skills. Human Connection.

His clients include a who’s who of businesses (from pharma to manufacturing to aerospace), universities, organizations, and government institutions. He has also worked extensively with entrepreneurs and solopreneurs, as well as small and medium size businesses.

He is the best-selling author of Getting to Yes And: The Art of Business Improv (Stanford University Press). Kulhan also created the dynamic online (asynchronous) program, Improvisational Communication in 2019, for those who want to study Business Improv in the comfort of their own homes, at their own pace.

A Few (AWESOME) Quotes From This Episode

  • ‘Yes, And’ does not mean I agree with you—it means I’m here, I’m listening, and I’m building thoughtfully on what you’ve said.”
  • “Follow the follower: Great leaders pay close attention to those they lead, because those people are actively teaching you how to lead them.”
  • “As a leader, my job isn’t to have the right answer; it’s to find the right answer by fostering real collaboration.”

Resources Mentioned in This Episode 

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

About  Scott J. Allen

My Approach to Hosting

  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.


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Scott Allen  0:00 

Okay, everybody, welcome to Practical Wisdom for Leaders. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world. Today, I have Bob Kulhan, and he is a professor at Duke University's Fuqua School of Business and an elite improv and sketch comedian. Bob is the founder and CEO of Business Improv, a 25-year-old consultancy linking improvisation to business through behavioral sciences. His focus; people skills, human connection. His clients include a who's who of businesses from pharma, to manufacturing, to aerospace, universities, government institutions, and everything else in between. He has also worked extensively with entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, as well as small and medium-sized businesses. He is the Best Selling Author of ‘Getting to "Yes And": The Art of Business Improv’ from Stanford University Press. He also created the first 100% virtual program led in January 2017.For the last six years, Bob has pioneered experiential learning in the virtual space. Leading dynamic, energizing, virtual, online, blended, and hybrid solutions. That's a lot of solutions, sir. That's every kind of flavor you've taken care of right there.

 

Bob Kulhan  1:15 

31 flavors. (Laughs)

 

Scott Allen  1:18 

Kulhan also created the dynamic, online, asynchronous program; Improvisational Communication in 2019 for those who want to study business improv in the comfort of their own homes and at their own pace. Bob, when we were last together in Phoenix, Arizona, you were doing an interview with The New York Times, and now you are on the Practical Wisdom for Leaders podcast. Wow, right? 

 

Bob Kulhan  1:43 

I’m coming up, man. Going up. 

 

Scott Allen  1:48

(Laughs)

 

Bob Kulhan  1:49

I'm glad to be here, Scott. This is fun. Let's do this. 

 

Scott Allen  1:51 

Yeah. Well, I am so excited for this conversation. I saw you in action and was just so impressed with what you do and how you do the work. And so, I think maybe we start with the path that started where you are on now. You were an elite performer working with the best in the world in improv. So, maybe let's start there, and then let's talk a little bit about the transition into building your consultancy. 

 

Bob Kulhan  2:17 

Yeah. Okay. So, I was fortunate. Timing is everything and I was in Chicago at the right place at the right time in the mid-90s. And so, I was taught improv by the people who created the modern incarnation of improvisation. Specifically, a man named Del Close was my teacher. Some of my coaches were and now are a who's who of those in billboards, household names. These famous celebrities were my improv coaches. And my mentor created The Second City Training Center. So, I was surrounded by just great talent and was fortunate to perform with great talent, once again, many of whom are hosting late-night talk shows and on billboards. And cut to this was 95 to 99, and I proved to the very best of my ability that a professional improviser in Chicago was an oxymoron as in the mid-late 90s. No one was getting paid to do it, people still don't get paid to do improv largely. This is intrinsic motivation personified to be an improviser. You are up on stage to perform because you love to perform, and that, though, doesn't pay a mortgage in Chicago. So, at this weird time that I can't… I love what I'm doing, I'm immersed in Chicago Improv, I'm performing 12 shows a week eight days a week. And 12 shows is not really an exaggeration. Eight days, of course, is one-off, but we were creating nights of the week. Improv was not what it is now, you had the opportunity to create, create, create, create. And so, in 99, I'm broke and wondering what I'm going to do next, and really at the struggle mentally of where to go. And I had the opportunity to create the first program in any business school in the entire world that focused solely on linking improvisation to business, and that was at the Duke University, Fuqua School of Business. And the way that I did that was partnering up with many of the thought leaders and subject matter experts in the world of the behavioral sciences. So, behavioral psychology, and cognitive psychology, and org theory, and most specifically, behavioral economics was where I started linking improvisation to business and professional development, team development, culture development. 

 

Scott Allen  4:29 

That is so cool. That is so awesome. Well, I know that you have your book, and so I'm going to put links to that for listeners in the show notes. What are a few things that you want listeners to know about improv in this space? You're working with some of the world's largest organizations, you're working with multiple universities. You're doing this work. What do people need to know about improv in the business context and how those links are being made?

 

Bob Kulhan  4:55 

Improvisation is not a one-size-fits-all set of tools and techniques. Not all improvisation is the same. Comedy improv is different than what happens in the military, what happens on cooking shows or in kitchens with elite chefs. It's not what happens in organizations. Comedy is a different bird altogether. And, on top of that, improv is not improv is not improv. You'll find one person or team that has a specific methodology in applying improvisation to business, and then you'll find another one that has… I'll go first-person behavioral science, and academia, and real-world outcomes. Changing behavior, changing culture. And so, you really should start -- if you're thinking about using improvisation -- with research. Know what you're getting into because there should be a ‘buyer beware’ sticker attached to this. You really have to focus on finding the right person or people for you, your team, your company. And now, with that said, the core of improvisation is really on three core competencies, which is how we define them in my company, Business Improv. And those three core competencies are reacting, adapting, and communicating. So, reacting being ongoing. Not a reaction, that's a one-off. Reacting is where you roll and roll and roll. Adapting is how, when, where, why you roll, roll, roll, roll. The parameters in which you are reacting and the outcome that you're trying to get to. And the sub-route to both of these is communicating. We're not on space, we're not in a vacuum. There's always someone with whom we can't react and adapt, or something in our environment which we should react and adapt. So, with those as the Business Improv three core competencies, those are our foundational blocks and that's where you build and move it toward whatever it is you want to move it toward; creativity, collaboration, communication, agility, adaptability, conflict management, storytelling, influence, creating culture. It can go a lot of different directions.

 

Scott Allen  6:53 

I appreciate the notion of kind of ‘buyer beware.’ I'm sure there's folks out there, just like folks out there selling leader development that may not have a complete understanding of the realm but they think they do. You're seeing some of that, and so I love the fact that your work is rooted in some of the science. Obviously, you're not going into lectures on that science, but if we needed to, we know that this is sitting on a foundation of really, really good thinking. Just very much appreciate that you did that work to make those connections and establish that really sound foundation. 

 

Bob Kulhan  7:27 

Yeah. Most companies that bring us in like the underpinnings of the behavioral science, yet they don't want me to go into a two-hour lecture on some cost fallacy or an irrational escalation of commitment. What they want is to understand how international escalation of commitment can keep us from making change, and then how improvisation can make us agents of change and really agile and adaptable. And so, this is where they can start complementing each other, yet, you hit it right on the head, most people don't bring a lifelong improviser in to sit down and hear a lecture for several hours. They want the ‘up on your feet.’ They want the experiential learning. They want the hands-on approach, and they want to do it with other people because improvisation is a team sport. So, it creates connection, and that shared learning experience then ultimately drives behavior change even on the smallest level, and language change as part of that. 

 

Scott Allen  8:23 

Well, yeah. And I think, today, I said this to you just kind of in passing, we didn't get to get into a long conversation about it at the conference, but what I love about what you're doing, and let's just take one of the kind of core tenets of improv, which is ‘yes and,’ that when we are working in a team, leaders are improvising all day long as these new stimuli present themselves that they weren't expecting. And so, that's happening all day long. You're providing leaders with some tools, some ways of thinking, some mindsets that can help them navigate some of that work. Because, for instance, the ‘yes and’ approach, it at least keeps me open to possibilities, it doesn't shut down. And especially when we're navigating some of these really complex adaptive challenges in organizational life, no one person has the answer. It's about creating that space of psychological safety where people feel like they can bring their perspective to the table. Mine might not actually ultimately be acted upon my idea, but I do feel like I can say what I think and the leader isn't quickly shutting it down. Because we know what it feels like to be in the presence of a leader who does quickly shut things down, who squelches the dialog. And everyone walks out of the meeting, and it's the meeting after the meeting of, “Well, okay.” And no one felt like they could say what they really thought. So, there's these core tenants in improv that are critical, I think, especially when it comes to problem-solving, they're just essential in many ways. Otherwise, you're flying blind as a leader. You agree?

 

Bob Kulhan  10:00 

Absolutely. So, you hit so many great points. Let's start with the core tenets of ‘yes, and.’ That's the cornerstone of improvisation, period. And if you don't learn that in an improv class, that's an example of ‘go get your money back.’ [Inaudible 10:15] “Why didn't we learn really what this is?” The next part of that, though, at least in the way that we spin it in business improv, ‘yes’ does not mean I agree with you. ‘Yes’ on its own is a dead end, that I agree with you. The ‘and’ is the thing that's going to be changing it. So, ‘yes’ becomes then thoughtfulness. ‘Yes’ is I'm here with you, I'm listening to understand what you're saying. ‘And’ is how you respond to them, how you agree with them, how you disagree with them, how you build directly upon them in a complimentary way, how you build directly upon them in a deep dive type of way. So, the ‘and’ really becomes this pivotal bridge to your mind, your background, your drive, your passion, your vision, your voice. And in doing so, in using these great two words, ‘yes, and,’ which really is a Swiss army knife as well, we're just going to talk about it in one way right now. It is truly a Swiss army knife once you get good at using these two words, and they're authentic to you as well. That's the underscore with getting good to it; your voice, your passion come out. What happens when you use ‘yes, and?’ You postpone judgment. You defer judgment to another time. You don't abandon judgment. If ‘yes’ is thoughtfulness, ‘and’ is how you're being thoughtful, how you're understanding, how you're in the moment, how you are present, then you are truly listening to understand. And so, this postponement of judgment then creates the space that you mentioned before in which people are intrinsically motivated to contribute. They want to participate because it's a basic human desire to be understood. Everybody wants to be understood, period. If you don't want to be understood, you're in a cave somewhere. You're just hiding from everybody else. Otherwise, we are in a collaborative society, and we want to be part of it so we want to contribute. And so, this act of postponing judgment to allow contribution then creates that psychological safety that you mentioned before. And that has to be put in place often in order to maintain integrity, not only as a space, as really a leader who can create that space. Because if you let other people or you as a leader start shooting people down too quickly, slapping hands, judging too quickly -- and, keep in mind I keep saying, “Too quickly,” we're talking about just delaying the judgment, pushing it off a little bit -- what ultimately happens, and you didn't frame it like this, yet, I'm going to be so bold as to say we start creating learned helplessness in other people. We start teaching people how not to contribute, and ultimately, they don't want to contribute because they know that they're the ones who are going to get punched down or hand-slapped and they don't want to feel stupid. So, ultimately, you create a structure in a reverse engineering capacity that removes that helplessness, that removes the barriers that keep us from communicating, collaborating with each other, including fear. And then you create the space, at least, for blocks of time for strategic failure. Open honest conversations for the sake of having open honest conversations and learning.

 

Scott Allen  13:22 

Yeah. I think, at last count, we each suffer from about 180 cognitive biases. And again, when we're navigating these complex adaptive challenges that, literally, don't have answers. So, how do we create culture when it comes to work from home? And I hear that all the time. I hear that quite often right now from clients, “It's not the same, we're still struggling with creating culture.” Well, you're in the realm of experimentation right now. You're in the realm of elevating the right questions and then running some experiments to see if you can move the needle on this particular challenge, whatever it is. Because there's no authority figure you can call in the world right now to say, “Hey, what are the four things I need to do to create a high-functioning team in a work-from-home environment? Just the four things, and then it'll be solved.” It doesn't exist. So, if you're not creating that space, and if you can, at least, admit walking in, “My thinking is limited, my perspective is skewed,” if you at least walk in with that humility, and then you're armed with that ‘yes, and,’ I love your phrasing, you can create the space for us to come up with what we think is our best guess as a path forward. Because, ultimately, we're experimenting. That's the work we're doing in that moment when it comes to these complex adaptive challenges, right?

 

Bob Kulhan  14:39 

Yeah. Absolutely. So, Business Improv has always been virtual; New York, Chicago, LA. We've expanded to North Carolina, Oregon. This is the way that we communicate, collaborate, ideate. This is the way that we have difficult conversations with each other. We use this language and this framing so that everybody knows that, “Oh, it's time for us to get in that right headspace, ultimately.” And this is how we've created high-functioning virtual teams as well. Because you mentioned before we started going virtual 2017, which means that we were experimenting a good half a decade before that to get to this point that now virtual teams, leaders, cultures, is part of our portfolio of what we're teaching people, and ultimately, it does take everybody's contribution to figure it out organizationally. Because though you can create, I could tell you what works really well for Business Improv, and we put the structure in place, it's not going to be the same if you shove it down everybody's throat. If you create this environment and say, “Okay, this is what we need to get to, we have some structure that's going to help us. How do you see it in your place in Cincinnati? How do you see it in Cleveland? How do you see it in Oregon?” How can we work together to then take this structure that we have and use this more as a map to success rather than some end-all-be-all guiding principles? And that's build-in. That's that contribution. Not buy-in, it's build-in. Everybody's contributing. 

Scott Allen  16:10 

Maybe we'll call the episode that. Not buy-in, build-in. 

 

Bob Kulhan  16:15 

Yeah. I have to credit then Iris Firstenberg from UCLA Anderson. The first time we heard that, probably, 20 years ago was from her. And it was such a great concept because what she really underscored was that buying-in, which is common, “I need you to buy into my idea. Come on, buy into this,” it creates a transactionary response in the world of behavioral science that's like, “Okay, Scott, you want me to buy into your idea? Cool. I'll buy into your idea. What do I get? I'm buying in, so what do I get for buying this idea?” As opposed to building-in, which is, “Okay, you said we need to go here? Now you want my voice, my help? All right, I'll contribute to this.” And just the act of contribution creates levels of ownership. And the further you get to it, and the more you contribute, of course, the more you own it, which means then accountability. Practices can be put into place, let alone, ultimately, intrinsically, you become more accountable by contributing. So, that's really the big difference, then, between buying and building, especially as it goes into the world of Business Improv. Is like we want those voices to be heard. And not only that we need voices to be heard because they need to be heard, so you create that space that allows that.

 

Scott Allen  17:28 

Well, and there's another… And I don't know that this is an official concept of Business Improv, it's something I took from some of the exercises that we are engaged in, but, I think, in many ways, at least one way of looking at leadership… There's a great scholar, his name's Ron Riggio. He's at Claremont McKenna. And he said to me one time, he said, “Leaders don't do leadership, leadership is co-created by leaders and followers working together.” So that's an interesting phrasing. Leaders don't do leadership, leadership is co-created by leaders and followers working together. Because it's going to be difficult to do improv alone, that's called stand-up.

 

Bob Kulhan  18:08 

Yeah. And even the people who do it alone use the audience. Solo improvisers, which I've done tons… When you see me do stand-up, I'll go out there with… It's very Andy Kaufman-esque. It's one character. I will hold that character for 5, 7, 12, 15 minutes, whatever the set is. And the audience responds to me, and I respond to the audience responding to me. And then they'll respond to me, respond to them. So, this domino effect really is a collaboration of an ensemble that the audience doesn't know they're part of, and that's the same with all great solo stand-up, whatever you want to call it, comedians. They are responding to the audience responding to him or them. So, it is a team sport. 

 

Scott Allen  18:52 

Oh, I love that. I love that. Yeah. But the whole notion of this co-creation, it's critical. And, again, when you are taking us through some of these exercises, you are literally with another person and you're co-creating. And I think, at times, leaders, it can be easy for them to be thrown off their game, and it can be easy for them to fall into the mode of, “I'm going to make decisions,” and to fall out of… And, of course, that's important sometimes. Again, let's make that an intentional decision. Switch gears, “I'm going to make a decision.” Okay. Make that an intentional choice. Good. But, a lot of the time, to your point of what your previous story, we're co-creating. And how do we create an environment where we can truly co-create? It's not acting, it's not compliance, it's truly co-creating. And I'm committed, I'm in, I'm engaged, and I want to be a part of helping us chart this path forward because it's unclear right now.

 

Bob Kulhan  19:49 

Yeah. There's a couple of things that you said that are triggering to me, this idea that leadership is co-created by those you lead. So, many years ago, once again, at UCLA Anderson, we were doing a C-suite program. And afterwards, a C-suite executive came up to me and said, “Bob, your job is your rank in your company, and status is something that's given you by other people or taken away from you by other people.” And so, that reminded me heavily of what you just said of like, “Oh, all right. Yeah. Well, if really leadership is defined by those you lead, then so is status because that is a complimentary phrase.” The next part of that, though, is a phrase. It's a chapter in my book, it's a phrase that you learn early in Chicago Improv at its most organic stages of improvisation, which is ‘follow the follower.’ So, the way that we spin this in the book and the way that we spin this in Business Improv programs is leaders need to follow those that they lead. That doesn't mean that they don't know where True North is, and they don't map the course, and they don't have a good navigation system or support staff, it means that you should be a humble leader, a servant leader. You have to learn. Keep the growth mindset open. Whatever you want or however you want to frame this is pay attention to those that you lead because they are teaching you how to lead them, and they're telling you what they need. And again, big difference between needs and wants. There could be a blurry line, however, ultimately, defining the difference between needs and wants is an imperative. And they'll tell you what they want, they'll also tell you what they need. And if you don't know, it's good to ask questions. And so, this goes back to, well, leadership is co-created by those that you lead.

 

Scott Allen  21:33 

Well, and I think, again, if I have a certain mindset walking into the space that I am the leader, I make decisions, I come up with solutions, if that's how you're constructing the role, you're more likely to cut people off, not be a great listener, sit around the room, and again, you're going to have a bunch of people who aren't saying anything. There's a bunch of opinions that do exist, but no one's… You have a hot topic, and literally, no one's contributing, because you're just kind of steamrolling the conversation. You're flying blind as a leader. And so, to your point, knowing when to follow, knowing when to… Again, you said servant leader. We could use different phrases, but that humility and staying in that place of curiosity in the face of these really complex challenges, it's a requirement. And again, ultimately, you might have to make a decision that others might disagree with, and not everyone's going to get their way, but I love your phrasing even from the beginning, ‘yes and’ keeps us in that place of possibilities and it keeps the conversation open. It doesn't shut down. Is there another concept from the book that you just want listeners to know about that might kind of nicely relate to what we've been discussing? I loved your phrasing. What was the phrasing of followers?

 

Bob Kulhan  22:51 

Well, your job is a rank in your organization, status is something that's given to you by other people and taken away from you by other people. The other part of that is follow the follower. And this goes to organic Chicago Improv. I think it's improv global, really, however, this I learned in Chicago so that's where I'll link it back. You go through these exercises and no one's supposed to lead, and no one's supposed to follow. And sometimes you do these exercises for like 45 minutes, and you're just with a group of people, just constant hyper-aware of what's going on and moving. And you're all sort of mirroring each other and mirroring somebody else at the same time. And next thing you know, you're all doing the same sounds, the same motions, the same movements, and it's ridiculous, and you become so connected to the people around you. And maybe that's something else, though, as it relates to all this, that when you're curious, you're vulnerable. You're open to the idea of being wrong. And there's something that you said before I go down this path that triggered me into my own organization, so I mentioned Business Improv, you said 25 years old. It's quarter century, that's what we're celebrating here. I always consider my job, and I think I learned this through the school of hard knocks, to be honest. We got good support staff that's not afraid to say, “Hey, Emperor, put on some clothes. You were embarrassing yourself at this point.” My job isn't to have the right answer, my job is to find the right answer. And so, that collaboration then everybody knows that I know that we need to solve this problem, and I might even know where true north is, help me map the course. Help me figure out how to get there. Help me find the right vehicle to get us there. And sometimes I don't even know where true north is, so help me find true north. And then everybody's collaborating and open to it. That, though, means that you have to be vulnerable. You have to be open to the idea that you don't have the right answer, which means that you're wrong, that you will be wrong. And then mistakes are part of the whole process. Mistakes are part of leadership. And I think that's another something that I've learned from many leaders is that they feel like they have to be right or look like they're right all the time. That's a lot of pressure, and that's unnecessary pressure. Be wrong, course correct. This is what improv is all about. The keyword in 2020: Pivot. I had to pivot. In everything, I had to pivot, pivot, pivot. Most people use that incorrectly. A pivot is you know where you're going. Like you watch football, the running back spins, and jumps, they're going to the end zone. He knows what he wants to do, he's going to the end zone. So that wasn't 2020, everyone was just scrambling. So, really, then using that term correctly in 2024, 2025, and going forward, it's the ability to have to be agile. Agility and adaptability are two separate things. Develop the skill set for agility to be adaptable within parameters, outcomes, which means that if you can take other people with you, they're going to help you be adaptable, which means that you're going to make mistakes along the way. Which means that when you have a good team around you, they're not only going to support you when you make mistakes, they're going to tell you when you're making a mistake. And that has been one of the most beneficial things that I've had around me in Business Improv; a group of leaders, really talented, amazing improvisers and business people who can link the two together and run programs. Tell me when things are failing, tell me when things are going wrong, tell me when they see mistakes, not only in the program, organizationally, in other people who teach. Because sometimes we'll have 20 improvisers, business improvisers working, if somebody's not carrying his, her, their share of the work, they'll let me know so I can come in, or they can do it first and I'll come in second. They'll tell me when I'm wrong, though, and that's the important part of this. And I need that. 

 

Scott Allen  26:40 

100%. There's so much good in there. So, you made me think of this book. Will Guidara; Unreasonable Hospitality. I don't know if you've had a chance to look at that yet. So, Will created the world's best restaurant. 11 Madison Park, it's in New York. And so, Will Guidara, for listeners, I'll put a link in the show notes, but it beautifully… He talks through, I listen to the book, he talks about the experiments they ran. And if you're running experiments, what does that mean? That means there will be failures. Thankfully, we have physicians who have been going to work for 50-plus years and failing forward. They didn't find the cure for cancer, but we maybe move the needle a little bit. And, all of a sudden, now we have immunotherapy, or we have Car T, or we have some of these interventions that are really revolutionizing oncology. Awesome. They've been failing forward. And so if we're running experiments, there's going to be failure. And I love what you said about, “Okay, but I have the humility to know that there will be failures. I have the humility to know that sometimes my job isn't to identify all the answers, it's to elevate the right questions for us to work because I don't even know what true north is right now. Where are we?” Sometimes the question is, “What questions should we be asking?” Because…

 

Bob Kulhan  27:56 

Yeah. What don't I know?

 

Scott Allen  27:57 

But then I love what you said because, in that experimentation, there's going to be failure, and are you surrounded by people who can at least give you that feedback to say, “Look, this isn't working. This is not the right course of action.” And again, we can stay in that place of thinking and possibilities, and is this salvageable? Are there some tweaks we can make to this? How could it work? And then, again, sometimes we might come to the point of, “This isn't and we need [Inaudible 28:22] Yep, done.” But, at least, we're intentional in that work and engaging in that work. And you said something that I just absolutely, I love the phrasing of hyper-aware. And I think it comes back to kind of that. A lot of the leaders I'm working with, I hear the phrase ‘time-starved.’ So, they're going from thing to thing to thing to thing to thing all day long. And I don't know that they're always present, that they're always hyper-aware.

 

Bob Kulhan  28:49

Yes.

 

Scott Allen  28:51

And then we start going on autopilot and building some bad habits, and then we have people around us who are afraid to tell us. And then the snowball starts to gather steams down the hill.

 

Bob Kulhan  29:04 

Yes. I think, one thing, in case there's anybody out there who's kind of rubbing raw on this one, saying, like, “No, you got to be perfect. You do.” Sometimes you have to be perfect, no doubt about it. And we're not talking about those times, we're talking about the other, potentially, 99% of the time that you have room to be flexible, agile, adapt, pivot, whatever you want to call it. Improvisational. Maybe it's 10% of the time you have to be perfect, the extreme majority, though, you just got to get the job going and get the job done. And there's tons of room to be flexible inside of that, ultimately. But it means, though, with that hyper-awareness, knowing when you need to be perfect and when you just need to start knocking dominoes over.

 

Scott Allen  29:51 

Yeah. But again, that hyper-awareness at least gives us a fighting chance at acting with a level of intentionality and forethought. And again, that buffer of having a team of people who are willing to, at least, say, “I don't think this is working.” And I loved your framing in the very beginning of, “Look, ‘yes, and’ does not mean I agree with everything you're saying.” And you very clearly defined what that means, but, “I do care to hear what you think. I do care to understand what you see. In the end, we may disagree. I may not act on what you said, but I want to hear it. I value it.” And, oof, wow. Well, okay. So, we have more of a conversation to have. We will do this again, sir. The New York Times is okay, but Practical Wisdom for Leaders, it's next level, and…

 

Bob Kulhan  30:42

It is.

 

Scott Allen  30:43

Risen. You've risen to the occasion here. (Laughs)

 

Bob Kulhan  30:44 

Man, I gotta tell you, this is the highlight of my morning. 

 

Scott Allen  30:49

For listeners, it's 9:00 A.M.

 

Bob Kulhan  30:51

The first 40 minutes of the 9:00 o'clock hour. This is really the highlight, and I feel good about it. I love conversations like this. It's nice, it's easy.

 

Scott Allen  31:00 

Okay. So, I always end off the podcast by just asking what you've been listening to, or streaming, or reading. What have you been consuming lately? It may have something to do with what we've just discussed, it may have nothing to do with what we've just discussed. But what's caught your attention in recent times that listeners might be interested in? 

 

Bob Kulhan  31:17 

That's a great question because I'm deep into cooking stuff right now. I did all the Thanksgiving period for the [Inaudible 31:26] I will do all the Christmas cooking. And I also reread ‘The Princess Bride’ recently, so I guess I'm not really doing a whole lot of academic or business-related books right now.

 

Scott Allen  31:36 

And that’s okay. That's okay. Checking back into ‘The Princess Bride’ is always a good endeavor.

 

Bob Kulhan  31:43 

Oh, my goodness, if you haven't read the book, it's slightly different than the movie. Let's be clear. It's a good book and it's a great movie. I think they're celebrating an anniversary for that movie as well. Is it going to be 50 years? Is that possible? 

 

Scott Allen  32:00 

Oh, I don't know. Billy Crystal was in that. 

 

Bob Kulhan  32:03

I'm going to say 40 years. I'm going to guess 40 years. 

 

Scott Allen  32:06

I think that might be a little bit closer. Such a good film. Robin Wright Penn, just…

 

Bob Kulhan  32:12 

I did read a book this past summer that's jumping out at me, ‘Improvised Monologue’ by Sawyer. Keith Sawyer. He was a piano player in Chicago in the early ‘90s in the Chicago Improv and now he's a scholar. I believe he's at UNC Kenan-Flagler Business School. And what he did was essentially break down how we improvise dialogs and monologs with each other, and what all the components are. And so, it's a really interesting, heady book around what speech, monolog, dialog looks like, and how it comes together in the moment in real-time when improvised. 

 

Scott Allen  32:52

Huh, interesting. 

 

Bob Kulhan  32:53

He also wrote another one, ‘Wisdom of Crowds.’ A really good book about how, you know, there is no lone genius. There's no great individual who's high on a mountain coming up with all ideas. Everything is learned and developed through social interaction with each other. And the example that struck out on me is JR Tolkien, ‘Lord of the Rings’ author. Everyone could just look at him and say, like, “He did this on his own.” He didn't, he was with the individual created ‘The Lion,’ ‘The Witch and the Wardrobe,’ and a couple of other individuals who... All their names are escaping me right now, but they would all get drunk, smoke opium, talk about all the different things. They would share their stories with each other, like, “Hey, why don't you put the witch in a wardrobe?” “Okay…” “Why don't you create an elf language?” “Okay, well, I’ll start working on it.” “Does this work for you?” And they would essentially collaborate with each other. And they would do it in these very social settings, but they were, once again, open, honest, vulnerable, learning from each other. And so, this great author really can attribute some of his greatness to other great people.

 

Scott Allen  33:56 

Yeah. Oh, well, we were in Oxford this summer. And so, speaking of CS Lewis. 

 

Bob Kulhan  34:01

Yes.

 

Scott Allen  34:03

And, yes, They were co-creating in some ways. I agree, I think so. Steve Jobs, yes, of course, but Johnny…  The marketing, or I shouldn’t say the marketing, the design wizardry that he could actually put to form this vision I don't think Jobs had that ahead of time. And so, it's, again, co-creation. 

 

Bob Kulhan  34:27

Yes. Yes.

 

Scott Allen  34:29

Bob, thank you so much. I am just thankful for your time today. I know that listeners are going to gather a lot from our conversation. For listeners, I've put some links in the show notes, so those are there for you to check out. And you know what, sir? We'll do it again.

 

 

[End Of Recording]