Zuzana Čmelíková - Leadership in Slovakia

Zuzana Čmelíková has been teaching and coaching for more than 20 years, especially in the diagnosis and creation of organizational culture, leadership development, self-management, resilience, stress management, time management, managerial training, soft-skills training. Zuzana has completed the 3rd degree of university studies in the field of human management at Matej Bel University. She successfully completed professional internships abroad in Belgium and in the USA.

In 2019, she became an internationally certified persolog® coach for increasing personal performance, organizational performance and streamlining communication and teamwork. In 2020, she received certification at the University of Pennsylvania in the specialization Positive Psychology and Resilience, directly from the creators of this concept. In 2024 she won the category Lecturer of the Year in Learning & Development Awards.

She is a Leadership & Resilience Professional in Slovakia.

A Quote From This Episode

• "We need to be aware of who we are and what we stand for, and it will create a cultural identity. And I believe that we can base it on our history. We have amazing role models who fought for freedom in our country."

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

• Book: Ethics: The Heart of Leadership by Joanne B. Ciulla
   

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

• The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. Plan for Prague - October 15-18, 2025!

About  Scott J. Allen

• Website
• Weekly Newsletter: Practical Wisdom for Leaders
• Blog

My Approach to Hosting

• The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.

Chapters

• 0:00 Leadership Development in the Slovak Republic
• 17:46 Leadership Development and Cultural Transformation
• 29:56 The Realities of Leadership and Parenthood
• 38:13 Leading Through Complex Challenges

Transcript

Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.

Scott Allen  0:00 

Okay, everybody. Welcome to the Phronesis podcast. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world. Today, I have Zuzana Čmelíková. And she has been engaged in teaching and coaching for more than 20 years, especially in the areas of diagnosis and creation of organizational culture, leadership development, self-management, resilience, stress management, time management, managerial training, and soft skills training. Zuzana has completed the third degree of the university studies in the field of human management at Matej Bel University. She successfully completed professional internships abroad in Belgium and in the USA. In 2019, she became an internationally certified persolog® coach for increasing personal performance, organizational performance, and streamlining communication and teamwork. In 2020, she received certification at the University of Pennsylvania in a specialization of positive psychology and resilience, directly from the creators of this concept. In 2024, she won the category Lecturer of the Year in Learning & Development Awards. She is a leadership and resilience professional in Slovakia. So, listeners, today, this is the first, Phronesis in Slovakia. Zuzana, thank you so much for being with me today. And what I always like to ask is what's not on your bio? What else should people know about you?

Zuzana Čmelíková  1:26 

Thank you very much for having me. I want to say hi to all our guests, to all our listeners. And what else to say? Thank you very much for a beautiful introduction. And what's the most important information probably about me, what I consider the most important that I'm mom of two wonderful children. I have a son, Yani, he is 11 years old. And my daughter, Emma, is 9 years old. They are really great teachers. 

Scott Allen  1:50 

I love that phrasing. They are great teachers. Yes. I've been in a 365-day-a-year, multi-year learning experience. It's an in-home program. (Laughs)

Zuzana Čmelíková  2:05

Yeah. Very effective.

Scott Allen  2:09 

Oh, that's wonderful. Well, thank you so much for being here. And I think, as we were planning this conversation, I know that you have hosted just incredible conferences. Cynthia Cherry from the ILA spoke so highly of your work. And I think where we're going to take the conversation today is just really some themes and some observations about leadership development in the Slovak Republic. You're going to give us a little bit of a lay of the land, and I'm excited to see where the conversation goes. So, what are you seeing in the Slovak Republic when it comes to leadership development?

Zuzana Čmelíková  2:42 

Yeah. Thank you very much. So, this is a really interesting question. It's nice to have some kind of historical background when we talk about Slovak Republic and about leadership development in this part of the world. I would like to say that Slovakia is really beautiful country that is situated just in the heart of Europe. Some or many people are being confused with Czech Republic or Slovak Republic. So, we used to be Czechoslovakia, but from 1993, this Czech and Slovak Republic split in very peaceful ways. So, we are very grateful for this. Since this period, the new era of Slovak Republic as an independent country was created. Of course, we were under Communist regime from 1968 until 1989 so there were so many habits that were rooted deeply in people's mind. And, of course, these people were influenced by certain way of living. And when this shift of values in society happened, and when this new independent country was created, the Slovak Republic, it was not just like that to change thinking of the people. People were doing from the scratch, they were trying to find a new way how to create a independent country, how to start with a free market economy. And, at the very beginning, it sometimes looked like cowboy capitalism. That there were some people that took advantage of some state-owned companies, and they bought it for almost nothing, and they were not doing very good business with the companies, and they brought it to bankruptcy. So, there was a lot of room for corruption. And this was a huge problem for many countries, post-communist countries to fight against corruption. And, of course, it is not easy to change thinking of people. I'm talking again about habits of thinking because the way how we think creates our reality. Also, Martin Seligman, the father of positive psychology said that  it's about how we interpret the reality in which we live. And also, Aristotle, that was years ago, said that we become what we repeatedly do. And this is something. What's really important to realize also in such societies as we are quite young democracy, and we need to learn that we need to be really aware of what are our values. What do we stand for? Why is it important to realize that the term ‘values’ is not automatically positive term, that it is neutral term? And when we talk about leadership, many people think that all people who have power are leaders. But it's not like that. And when we talk about that this term ‘values’ is neutral, we can use as an example, also, some mafia groups that have their own values. And they are killing other people, and they are pursuing their own interests, and they are misusing them, and they are not living in freedom. We can call them rather tyrants than leaders. And when we call people or when we talk about leadership, it should be about people who help somebody else to grow, to learn something. And this is something what we are still learning here. We are in the process of transformation. It's not easy, but I believe that there are so many good role models also here in our society. We used to have amazing lady president, woman president, and she is already not in this position anymore. And it's also the consequence by this lady, Čaputová, made her decision to stop and not to be interested in continuity. To be in this position was that she felt fear. And this is something what is present in contemporary society. We can feel it everywhere, that contemporary leaders, not at all leaders, but state representatives use it. And they are offering very simple solutions and some shortcuts to people. And, of course, shortcuts don't work. And some people think that it's much easier to believe this kind of promises, and I would call it some kind of transaction. That these people promised something to people they believed, but they are not giving it back, they are not receiving it. So, that's why I'm saying that we are in the process of learning as a society. Of course, it's a very important lesson to be learned, and I believe that we will be smart enough to learn from the history. And we will not let history repeat because we are geographically in a very interesting region. We are in the heart of Europe. We are neighboring countries with Ukraine in the east and Czech Republic in the West, so we are just in the middle of all these geographical interests. That's why I believe that leadership is really hot topic that should be really discussed with much seriousity and with much attention. So, let's go back to these values. So I believe that or I agree with James MacGregor Burns who once said that leadership is one of the most discussed but the least understood phenomenon. And we are here to learn and to be part of this change, so I consider it as my mission. I had several times opportunity to leave Slovakia, but the reason why I do what I do here in this region is that I believe that we need to educate people about the importance of critical thinking. That it's important to know, especially in this era, that not everything what is on the internet is valid information. That we need to learn how to validate those information and how to make decisions based to relevant facts. And how is it important to know about the importance of vision and to learn that development should be rooted on the basis of moral values. Not just like any kind of values, but on the basis of moral values so that it will help us to become better people, to make better decisions. And also considering that stakeholder management, that when we talk about leadership and leaders, the followers are all stakeholders. So, we need to be aware of who our stakeholders are, and do the best kind of decisions that will be beneficial for these relationships because this is so important.

Scott Allen  9:25 

Okay. So, this is incredible. We have a country that is young. It's a young democracy. It's in transition. I'm imagining maybe your parents, or that generation, even how they construct leadership has to be very fascinating, and how they think about what is leadership. So, there's this transition and a shift in mindset and in a way of thinking about leadership. And, of course, in that transition, it can be ripe at times for corruption or bad actors, but are we rooted solidly in our values of who we are and what we stand for? And are we clear about those values? And then, that becomes a little bit of our starting point. Is that accurate? 

Zuzana Čmelíková  10:16 

Yeah. Right. We need to be aware of who we are, what do we stand for, and it will create some kind of cultural identity. And I believe that we can base it on our history. We have amazing role models who are fighting for the freedom in our country. And these are those who represent some kind of leadership attributes that we should follow and take wisdom from. So, this is very important to work with positive role models to see that change is possible, that it is possible to make change in a right way. And that's why I am so much interested in ethical leadership because I believe that leadership is something what must be based on moral values, so the ethics is the heart of leadership. 

Scott Allen  11:02 

Well, and I love how you're thinking that, if this is rooted in our heroes, rooted in the values and those stories, that everyone collectively, or I should say, probably a great majority of these individuals valued these heroes, resonated with these heroes, and if we're taking some of what we're in a contemporary way, saying this is who we are, and taking from them, I think it's just beautiful because it's hard to argue with that.

Zuzana Čmelíková  11:32 

You're right. It's hard to argue with that, but it is not easy to apply it, to put it into action in contemporary society because you have so many pressures, you have so many information. And when you consider it like people, if they want to believe to something, they will find support for their arguments on the internet. And it's all dangerous because if they are lacking a certain level of critical thinking, they can believe it, they are strongly persuaded that it's right, and they have their own wisdom, then. And it's dangerous. This is why is it so important to somehow connect this leadership development also with an education system in the country. And I can see that we have many smart, intelligent, and highly motivated teachers, but the system is not still as good as it should be, is not as supportive as it should be for development of such life skills for children as, for example, self-awareness. It's important to educate people how important the role values play in their lives, that values are creating the core of our identity and integrity. And if people don't know this, and if you, for example, have a leadership training and you start to talk about these topics, I am receiving many times feedback from these managers that, “Oh, why is not something like this being taught at the primary schools or elementary schools?” That this is something what must be developed, not only at this level of adults, but also learn children about the importance of being aware. Who I am. Who do I stand for? Why I believe this? Is it a valid information connected with the critical thinking skills and also some kind of mental agility, emotional agility? To learn how to cope with difficulties. And especially in this kind of society in which we live that we are facing many challenges, and people, when they feel that they are tired, many people are looking for shortcuts. And this is that room for, I would not say for leaders, but for tyrants who can offer very easy solutions, but, of course, that are not leading to the desired destination as a society, and we are going back. And this is something what we need to stop and change it. And this change is quite painful, but do it in such a way that it will be rooted, especially in these moral values that we will be able to inspire from those role models, from the historical role models, and try to apply this wisdom into everyday actions. And admittedly, as Aristotle said many years ago that we become what we repeatedly do, not what we repeatedly say. Many people they say something but they are not congruent in their actions. What is the most important part of leadership? Being congruent. Because congruence is something what makes people trustworthy, and this makes them authentic, and it means that people would love to follow them. 

Scott Allen  14:58 

Yes. Well, and that trust is, I think, in any human relationship, it's the glue that if I trust you as an individual, then I will more likely work above and beyond, or I will more likely be activated willingly if I have trust in that relationship or trust in that leader. It's so interesting. I have incredible respect. Your passion shines through. You have a very clear vision of what's needed. Well, as you're speaking with managers and leaders in the communities, does your message resonate with them? Do they see that? Do they agree? And so, I think that's part one of the question, but then part two is do they follow through with that behavior as well? And I'm sure, like anywhere in the world, it's a little bit of all over the place as to those who do and those who don't. 

Zuzana Čmelíková  15:49 

Exactly. Yeah, absolutely right. There are amazing role models who can serve as an example, really walking the talk from the leadership position. And you can see it as a system of falling good [Inaudible 16:02] And people can see that what is being preached is being demonstrated by everyday actions. So, it's really the way how to create healthy organization culture that enhances culture of psychological safety. And people can grow in such an environment because they are not afraid, they don't feel fear, and they can use their potential. But, of course, there are also companies in which, for example, these leaders at very high positions ask you to coach their manager, and you will realize, “Okay, but this manager is absolutely okay.” But the leader is having a problem. And how to approach this kind of situation, how to make this push back to such a high position. And this is exactly that moment in which I realized, “Okay, so I know that this person is not a leader,” because the main distinguishing factor for me who is a manager and who is a leader is that when I meet a leader, the real leader, I feel that I can tell him or tell her what I think. That they create a psychologically safe environment in which you feel that they are interested in your feedback, constructive feedback. That you will be not afraid, and they appreciate that you are not afraid to make this kind of pushback because they can learn from it and they can grow. So, this is very rare, but it happened to me several times, and I'm still cooperating with these leaders. And they are creating certain community, they are trying to organize also very meaningful conferences here in Slovakia. So, I'm not saying that everything is bad, no, I'm just saying that we are in a progress, that we need to connect. And what would help, and I feel that it is really helping, is to network also with people from abroad and learn still. We need to learn a lot and bring this knowledge back. The challenge that we are facing now is that young generation of smart people is leaving Slovakia, and they are leaving because they don't see perspective to stay here because of the state representatives that we have here. They can see what kind of consolidation packages we have to somehow recover our economy, but these packages are very tough, and it will happen that many big companies will decide to leave Slovakia. So, it is not very motivation for young people to stay here. But even though I say, “Okay, go away, go and learn, but come back. Come back, bring this wisdom and try to change it. Try to be part of this change.” I believe, I strongly believe that we were born in some specific place for some reason. I believe it. I have opportunity to live in the US, in Belgium, but whenever I was coming back to Sliač, a beautiful little spa town in central Slovakia, my heart was like melting. I really felt that this is the place where I belong. And, from this place, I'm really so grateful that I can do things in such a way that I can think globally but act locally. And I think that this is the way how we can make change happen in such transformational way, and make people believe that this is the way that we need to make also to those stage representatives some kind of pullback. I know that it's not easy because they are not listening to us ordinary people, but finding the way and not giving it up. 

Scott Allen  19:35 

Mmm. And I think that gets into just your phrasing there of not giving it up that's… In your bio, I use the word ‘resilience’ a couple of times. And you've woven in some really wonderful, strong ingredients, I think. So, from a moral values standpoint, to our leaders creating a space that's psychologically safe, to are we going to maintain resilience in the face of some of these challenges as we transition? Because it's in that space of transition, and the system isn't yet designed to elevate some of the ideal players, and that's happening all over the world. That's happening all over the world. Some of the kind of movements in different parts of the world. It's really, really fascinating right now, that's for sure. So, tell me more about what you're hearing from average leaders and managers in organizations. Is it also a shift for them? I imagine it is. To construct the activity of leading others in a different way, from more of the authoritarian command and control, “I'm the boss,” to more of a, “I'm going to create a place where there's psychological safety, where people have voice. I might not always agree or act upon that advice or that feedback, but I do value and want people to feel like they can share what they're thinking.” That's a shift. You're seeing that shift over and over, I imagine. 

Zuzana Čmelíková  21:13 

Yes, you're absolutely right. And this is what fascinates me in companies, that there are people at the top of the organizations that believe that, okay, I have been manager for many years, but I feel that I am struggling something, something important, some kind of important ingredient that is missing here. And that should enable me to better deal with people, to better understand people, and to make people full. And it's really interesting to look at this also from the perspective of university education. We have study programs for management, for business, but we don't have accredited study programs in leadership studies. When I was in the US as a visiting scholar at Jepson School of Leadership Studies, it was amazing experience for me because I saw that you can study their study program in leadership. You have there subjects such as critical thinking, and many, many other very interesting things that you can learn and be aware that they are very important part for development of leader's way of thinking. And I believe that if we want to create, help to form good leaders, we need to start from the self-leadership first. These people need to understand, first of all, who they are, what do they stand for, whether they really understand also the values of their companies, whether they can see match of these values, whether they can accept the way that they will be congruent with these values. Because whatever they will say, people will be watching them. And there's a lot of pressure on these people, so they need to be very open in communication. They need to work on themselves first to be able to lead themselves first, and to understand that the best way how to influence people is their example, being a role model for them and walking their talk. And even though if they make some mistakes, admit it and say, “Okay, let's see. We have tried this, I apologize. I really made mistake,” and this is the way they will enable creation of psychological safety. If they ask people to share their ideas, the leader should be the first one who should share that, for example, “Something went wrong, and I accept it. It's my responsibility, I will learn from it.” And I’m saying it here that we are living such a period in which the periodicity of the exchange is extremely. The only certainty that we have is that we know that tomorrow will be different in something, so that's why we need to create that safety and help and enable people understand that the only way how we can survive is to experiment. Not be afraid to bring new ideas, to innovate, and this is the way how we can move forward, and this leads to innovation.

Scott Allen  24:06 

But I love that phrasing of experimentation, because, yes, when we're navigating some of these complex adaptive challenges, for instance, the youth leaving the country, what do we do to inspire, motivate, encourage those individuals to maybe go away, but also to come home so that they can help in that transition, so they can help facilitate that change? But you're exactly right. Even if we do establish people solidly in those values, the system will test them. And when the system tests them, how they respond, it makes a big difference. I think humans have struggled with this since the beginning of time. I really do. It's a strong individual. And, to your point, the first female president, was that her title, President?

Zuzana Čmelíková  24:57 

President. Right. This is the problem because there are so many people who you would like to see also to become a politician, but that safety is not there that you will enter this area of public life. And you are immediately thinking about, “What about my family?” I'm really passionate about leadership topic. I know that many people who were situation leaders, they took their responsibility and they were creators of that change. For example, Martin Luther King in your country, or (?Rudolf II?) in my country. And they devoted their life to this change. They didn't know what will happen, so it's extreme responsibility. And I believe that the topic of leadership is connected also with the topic of moral responsibility. And when I am having a trainings, for example, in leadership, I do all my best to make this leaders think in context of moral imagination. Patricia Werhane, she is an author of this concept from University of Virginia, and I'm so much inspired by her work, and also by work of (?Joel Shuler?)ethic leadership, and also Professor Ed Freeman Stigler theory concept. So, I just tried to experiment with these concepts and to make people think “What would happen if I will solve these dilemmatic situations in this way or in this way?” I believe that it is to having some case studies, and they are bringing their case studies to our trainings. They're real-life case studies. And this is the best way how to train this moral imagination, but it is still some kind of mezzo level, and we need to do something similar at macro level. When I was a finalist in that learning and development of art, I received questions from committee, and they asked me, “Zuna, would you take responsibility, and would you go to train politicians, Slovak politicians in ethical leadership?” And I said, “Yes, I would love.” But nobody asks me. They would never ask you to do something like this. They don't want to discuss these topics. They have their own rules, and you know that they are saying something but doing something different. And this congruence is the biggest enemy of leadership.

Scott Allen  27:20 

Yes. How do we decrease that gap? Increase the congruence, to use your phrase. there's an incredible book that I want listeners to be aware of, I want you to be aware of. Have you ever heard of the book, ‘Corruptible,’ by Brian Klaas? 

Zuzana Čmelíková  27:35

No. No. 

Scott Allen  27:36

Okay Fascinating. I listened to it. And he reads the book to you, so I really, really enjoyed it. But it's called ‘Corruptible', and he really explores, when it comes to the topic of leadership, is it that power corrupts? Is it that the system corrupts? Or is it that individuals who seek power, like a moth to a flame, that power those people are attracted to it? The challenging people are attracted to that position of authority and it’s a fascinating listen because he's a political scientist and he takes you on this tour of the world and what's happened in the world. But, to your point, there's individuals… I think something we're talking about here is that leadership oftentimes is presented as chocolate bars, tulips, and daisies, and warm fuzzies. And, “Everyone, be a leader.” There's danger, there's loss, there's fear. And back to Martin Luther King, at least in our country, he was assassinated, or Abraham Lincoln was assassinated, Mandela was jailed, or Gandhi was assassinated. And it's dangerous. It's not easy. And I think, at times, we pretend or hold it up as this... Ron Heifetz once at the Kennedy School… I was at this program called The Art and Practice of Leadership Development, and it was one of the most transformational learning experiences. Zuzana go, if you can get to that learning experience. I just had Tim O'Brien who helps coordinate that program now on the podcast, but most powerful learning experience I've ever been a part of. But he made a statement. He said, “Look, I'm not going to pretend that leadership is safe.” He wasn't really a big fan of creating a safe space, so to speak, because he thought that was doing a disservice to his students. That there is risk, there is danger. And so, I have incredible respect for you in the sense that you have a very clear vision of how you think, whether it's in the primary and secondary schools, or whether it's in the colleges, or whether we have programs to help us train leaders, positional leaders in the government. I'm going to be meeting today on the podcast with Ira Chaleff, who spent years working to prepare our political officials to do the work and help them better understand what it means to be a leader. Now, do they always act on that? No, that's a struggle, that's a challenge, but that's the work that he was engaged in and that he was passionate about. And I just have so much respect for your work, what you're doing, the context you're in.

Zuzana Čmelíková  30:21 

Thank you very much. There are so many people who are doing really a great job here in Slovakia, and I believe that we need to connect and create that kind of not a movement, but community that will emphasize that it's not just like that how we lead people, that we need to have the right set of values and have courage. That it's something, but what really matters. That it's not sometimes safe, but it's good things to do, the right things to do.

Scott Allen  30:53 

As we begin to wind down our time today, can you share with listeners maybe what you've been listening to, or reading, or maybe something you've been streaming? What's something that's caught your attention in recent times? It can have something to do with what we've just discussed, it might have nothing, anything to do with what we've just discussed. What's caught your attention in recent times?

Zuzana Čmelíková  31:15 

When we just started to have this conversation, you asked me what else I would like to add to this conversation, and I mentioned my children. We are just experiencing a beautiful period in our life that my children are really giving me feedback, and they want to share with me their days, especially during the evening time. And I appreciate it so much. Sometimes, of course, I'm tired, and I don't want to listen, and I'm just throwing a pillow at them. But, most of the days, I really enjoy having this conversation with them. So, the biggest source of wisdom is my children because we experiment at home with this resilience concept, with various things that I always emphasize to them that they will meet different people in their life. There are some people who will be good, and some who will not be in such a position. They will be able to understand what's the best possible choice to make in the situation. And I'm trying to prepare them for such situations to make their own mind, to be able to decide based on what they believe is right. And the biggest source of wisdom in this for me in my life were my parents. I have amazing parents. They were teaching me from early childhood that it's important to be good to people, to do good. Also, when I was a visiting scholar at Jepson School of Leadership Studies, University of Richmond, Joan Ciulla was the lady who introduced me to the concept of ethical leadership. It was at the very first moment in 2001 when she explained that what I have from my family is somehow present in this scientific concept and that it can be implemented not only in family life but also in organizational life and society life. From the very first moment I met her in 2002, I knew what I would love to do in my life. What is very eye-opening for me is that from this period until I had children, I was only focused on the academic world and also on the business world. But when my children were born, I started to use this concept also in the way how I bring them up, and I realized that this is amazing experience for me. That they are being my partners, my children. They are giving me very interesting ideas, and I can say that I'm really learning from them. 

Scott Allen  33:42 

Well, you couldn't have said it better. We have a son that's 16, and we have twin girls that are 14. ight before our son was born, my wife said something to me, she said, “I just hope you really stay present through this experience of parenthood.” And I really took that comment to heart. And so, my son was born, and for some reason, I opened up my laptop the day he was born, and I wrote a sentence. And then, the second day, I wrote a sentence. And this morning, the first task I did for each of the three children was I wrote a sentence. And it's just something they said, something that happened in their day, maybe it was the first day they ever walked. But my sentence for my son recently, and it's happened on five or six occasions in recent months, is, “You're challenging me to be better because I don't have the skill right now to always navigate some of the situations the way I want to.” But he is holding up a mirror, and he's helping me, if I look at it through that lens, he's helping me get better and helping me really get in touch with even elements that I need to work on. And, oof, wow, it is. To your point, it's such a wonderful learning experience, parenthood. If we choose it to make it that, right?

Zuzana Čmelíková  34:58 

Right. Exactly. And the choice is something very important in our life. What we choose to pay attention to. And exactly what you mentioned, also your experience with your children is indeed leadership. So, all those things that you mentioned in relationship with your children are so important also in relationship with people in any organization or at society level, to listen to activity, to be present, to be there, that people will feel that you care. Because many people will forget about what you tell them, some smart things, smart ideas, but they will never forget how you make them feel.

Scott Allen  35:37 

Yes. And that's where we will end today. That is beautifully said. Zuzana, thank you so much for checking in and thank you for the good work that you're doing in the world. It's incredible. And, for listeners, if they want to connect with you, how can they do so?

Zuzana Čmelíková  35:53 

Oh, Scott, thank you very much for having me here in this podcast. Phronesis is something what I love. It's Aristotle's idea, living what you are preaching. If any of your audience would like to connect with me, LinkedIn is probably the best way so we can connect via LinkedIn. And it will my pleasure to respond to messages. Feel free. 

Scott Allen  36:14 

I will put that in the show notes. And you know what? I hope that our paths cross in about a year in Prague for the international leadership Association Conference. I hope I can meet you in three dimensions now. We've met in two dimensions digitally. I look forward to that. Take care. Thank you so much, Zuzana. Be well and take care.

Scott Allen  36:34 

Perhaps one of the greatest complex adaptive challenges that we as leadership scholars and educators practitioners face is how do we use our knowledge to help better prepare people to serve in these very, very complex roles with a number of competing commitments? How do we help them better do that work? And that, in and of itself, is a complex adaptive challenge because there's a lot happening out there, and I'm not always sure that it's actually having the intended results. So, here you have someone, Zuzana, who is working it, and she is doing her best to help influence in her community, in her country, a way of being that, in her mind, and I would agree, is a good way to be. Are we ethical? Are we curious? Are we experimental? Are we individuals who are role models, heroes? And she is in her country, doing that work. I hope you loved that conversation. I hope you see yourself in her story. You are in a country as well, although it might be a college, or an organization, a nonprofit, an NGO, and how are you facilitating change and preparing others to lead in your context? As always, thank you so much. Take care. Be well. 

[End Of Recording]