Dr. William Attaway - Growth Happens On the Other Side of Change

Dr. William Attaway is an Executive Coach specializing in leadership, mindset, and productivity who has been leading teams and coaching leaders for nearly 30 years. He's coached hundreds of agency owners and their teams on six continents, helping them to navigate and overcome the leadership and mindset challenges that can be overwhelming. William has spoken at events and to teams, including Seven Figure Agency, Prospecting on Demand, Spyglass Ops, the All-In Agency Summit, Extendly, SHRM, and MinistryPass. He's written several best-selling books on leadership and is currently working on his third, which will be released in January 2025.

Pulling from his nearly 30 years of leadership experience leading and coaching leaders and teams personally, as well as from the hundreds of leaders he has coached, clients have access to a deep and wide knowledge base, a coach who is FOR you, and a proven methodology that will help you stop spinning your wheels into overwhelm and overwork. He and his amazing wife, Charlotte, have been married for 26 years, and they have two exceptional daughters, one in college and one in high school.

Three Quotes From This Episode

• "Consistency is the mother of momentum. Everybody wants momentum - only way to get there is consistency."
• "It's not me against you, it's me and you against the problem. We're together on this."
• "Growth only happens on the other side of change. Everybody wants to grow, but not everybody wants to change."

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

• William's Website 
• Book: The Business of Expertise by David C Baker
• Book: Getting Things Done by David Allen

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

• The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. 

About  Scott J. Allen

• Website
• Weekly Newsletter: The Leader's Edge
• Blog

My Approach to Hosting

• The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.

Chapters

• 0:00 Podcasting Benefits in Leadership Development
• 11:05 The Power of Podcast Networking
• 17:56 Navigating Difficult Conversations and Challenges
• 30:15 From Antarctica to Family Dynamics

Transcript

Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.

Scott Allen  0:00 

Okay, everybody, welcome to the Phronesis podcast. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world. Today, I have Dr. William Attaway, and he is an executive coach specializing in leadership, mindset, and productivity, who's been leading teams and coaching leaders for nearly 30 years. He coached hundreds of agency owners and their teams on six continents, helping them navigate and overcome the leadership and mindset challenges that can be overwhelming. William has spoken at events and to teams, including Seven Figure Agency, Prospecting on Demand, Spyglass Ops, the All-In Agency Summit, Extendly, SHRM, and MinistryPass. He's written several best-selling books on leadership and is currently working on his third which releases in January 2025. Pulling from his nearly 30 years of leadership experience leading and coaching leaders and teams personally, as well as from the hundreds of leaders he has coached, clients have access to a knowledge base that is deep and wide, a coach who is for you, and proven methodology that will help you stop spinning your wheels into overwhelm and overwork. He and his amazing wife, Charlotte, have been married for 26 years, and they have two exceptional daughters. One in college, one in high school. Sir, thank you so much for being with me today. I am excited for where this conversation is going to go. 

William Attaway  1:25 

Scott, I am as well, and thank you so much for inviting me. I've been looking forward to this. 

Scott Allen  1:29 

Yes, yes. So, we're in a similar space. We don't have a collegian yet. We have a son who is a junior starting to look at colleges, and then we have twin daughters that are 14. So, we're a little bit behind you in that space, but talk about the greatest opportunity for leadership: Parenting.

William Attaway  1:46 

Oh, seriously. (Laughs) Growth moments every single day.

Scott Allen  1:53 

A laboratory of growth and development that is 18 years in house. 24/7, 365.

William Attaway  2:02 

And even when they move to campus.

(Laughter)

Scott Allen  2:05 

It's just an out-of-house program.

William Attaway  2:07 

That's exactly right. Now, it's remote leadership.

Scott Allen  2:12 

Exactly. Well, we are going to have a lot of fun. I've had the honor of being on your podcast. Right away I said, “Look, we need to have you on mine so that we can talk.” Now, how many episodes have you done of your show?

William Attaway  2:25 

Let's see, we have released about 150 now. We're in our third season.

Scott Allen  2:30 

Awesome, William, I rarely have an opportunity to talk with other podcasters, other podcasters in this leadership mindset space, productivity. So, what have some of your observations been on just podcasting in general? I'd love to have a conversation because, for me, I see it as like, six or seven wins, but I want to hear your perspective.

William Attaway  2:53 

I absolutely agree that there are multiple wins here. For me, what it has done for me is it helped me to grow personally. That's the first thing. I get to have conversations with people like you that I get to learn from. And through the podcast, using this as a venue for my own growth and development, I've learned things from people that I don't know that I ever would have intersected without the show. That's tremendous on a personal level. Then I get to take those conversations, the incredible learning opportunities, and I get to share those very widely and broadly. It's as though we're sitting across a table having coffee, and somebody else is listening in, and they get to benefit in many of the same ways and more that I get to benefit from. I take copious notes from my guests because these are opportunities for me to learn and grow, not only as I coach other leaders, but in leading my own team. I want to benefit from the stories that I get them on so that I can avoid some of the ditches I hear people talk about driving into, and I can be inspired by the mountains that they have ascended. That helps me become a better leader, which then helps me to coach my clients to a higher leadership capacity as well.

Scott Allen  4:11 

Yes. It systematized my learning. Literally, this morning already before we're having this conversation, I just finished another episode. And this guest was challenging my thinking. My wheels were spinning as I was trying to think about, okay, how am I going to keep up here? Because he’s thinking in just incredible ways. I always joke that it kicks my butt every week because I'm in a conversation with someone who knows a heck of a lot more about something, or has a heck of a lot more experience, or, to your point, has driven into those ditches and I can learn from. So, it's just systematized in my learning. And even in my presentations and in my workshops, I find myself drawing from quotes that guests have said because every seventh episode, someone will say something, and I'll just be like, “Wow, that is incredible how you just phrase that.” And, literally, I think, on your show, I shared a couple of those quotes that, again, for me, I didn't say them but they keep me cooking, and then I am sharing them with others and it's resonating. 

William Attaway  5:22 

Exactly the same. I was just this week talking with a client, and I used one of the quotes that you shared with me. And I gave attribution, but I wanted them to experience the same ‘aha’ that I did when I heard you talk about that. “Leaders create the weather. I want you to hear that, I want you to understand that.” And I watched the light bulb go off behind their eyes, just like I felt it go off in me when we had our conversation. We get to be conduits of what we're learning instead of just being a reservoir and holding it all in for ourselves.

Scott Allen  5:55 

I had that same reaction when Jonathan Reams, who said that quote, said it to me. I was like, “Jonathan, that is incredible. That phrasing is just beautiful.” And, at least for me, another benefit has just been I'm talking with you. I'm building a relationship with you. And one of my first episodes that I recorded this morning was with a gentleman named Gary Lloyd, he was on my show, gosh, it's probably three years ago. He'd written a book called ‘Gardeners Not Mechanics,’ and really explores complexity and how to navigate complexity. Great book. So we meet online. He's in the UK, and, at the end, we were kind of signing off, and he said, “Hey, if you’re ever in the UK, let me know.” So, last summer, we were. Now he's been on the show again, but he toured us around London for eight hours on a Sunday. Showed us the markets. So, just the relationships that I've built, that's been another really cool byproduct of this experience. And I imagine you've had the same experience. 

William Attaway  6:57 

100%. One of the things that I'm trying to get more intentional about is staying in touch with previous guests, because now you're talking 100 and 140-plus people, I want to stay in touch. I want to continue to nurture and build those relationships because I want to find ways we can support and encourage each other in what we're doing. Many of these relationships, Scott I never would have had otherwise. Sometimes I get about 30, 35, requests a week to be on the show, and that's humbling and incredibly overwhelming, to be honest. And so, I've given my team some filters as we get those requests in that help to kind of narrow the field before we say, okay, let's do a pre-interview. Let's have a conversation. But one of the filters is, for me, is this somebody I would be excited talking to? Is this somebody that I would like to build a relationship long-term with? Because those make the best episodes. Those make the best conversations. If I'm excited, if I'm into it, the audience feels that. 

Scott Allen  7:54 

Yes. 100%. And just for anyone who tends to send out impersonal, random emails to get your clients on a podcast, citing one episode and then giving me this email that got sent to 1,000 other podcasters doesn't work out that well. 

(Laughter)

William Attaway  8:16 

Does not, particularly when it opens with, “Dear Bill.” No one calls me that

Scott Allen  8:24 

Sorry. What we're doing right now is practicing communication in ourselves, and so, in some ways, it's helped me with improv. It's helped me continue conversation. It's helped me with my own presentations because now that I'm live in front of a group, I'm using my voice in a very different way than maybe I would have four years ago. So, just from a communication standpoint, it's so much fun too.

William Attaway  8:48 

Absolutely. And being on the other side of the mic as guesting, it helps you to clarify your thoughts. It helps you to clarify the direction of your thinking as you are beginning to answer questions that maybe you didn't anticipate, and you've got to think on the fly, and you've got to build responses and rhythms. I find myself often going down a very different trail than I would have were I'm not talking that out. And more than once, I'll go back and pull from that transcript and say, “Okay, I want to take that and begin to use that as a messaging because that's a line of thinking I'm not sure I would have gone down had I not been in this type of a conversation.” I think podcasts have so many valuable purposes that can be leveraged if we're intentional about it. 

Scott Allen  9:33 

Yes. And that's a great phrasing. If we're intentional about it, there's just so much opportunity. And another thing that's so much fun, to your point, on being excited for the conversations. It's a wonderful excuse to talk to some folks that you should really have no reason to speak with. Former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Canada, she was the Chief Justice for 17 years. And just yesterday, I secured the head of the Kennedy Space Center. And so, there's just so many fun conversations to be had. Do you proactively reach out to guests? And how do you deal with rejection? 

William Attaway  10:12 

Rejection is part of the game. That's the reality of it. You're never going to bat 1,000. If you get three out of 10, you're in the Hall of Fame. And I think you got to keep that mindset. Last Fall, I remember reaching out -- I don't reach out as much these days, but I remember last Fall I reached out to a guy that I thought there's absolutely no reason for him to respond to me but I'm not going to say his no for him. And I said, “I'm going to make the ask.” And it was a guy who wrote a book that impacted me about 20 years ago, completely revolutionized the way that I think about productivity. His name is David Allen. He wrote a book called ‘Getting Things Done.’ And so, I reached out to David, and I fully expected to get a form letter response from his team, “Hey, David is way too big for you’ kind of thing. Instead, I got a response from David, who said, “I would be honored to be on the show, let's set it up.” And I had a fantastic conversation with him and was able to express my gratitude for the impact he made in my journey in helping me to think differently and set up the systems that serve me to this day, that I use daily with the GTD system. And that conversation, I have gotten more feedback from that episode than just about any other because people heard and resonated with that. But it started with making an ask and committing, “I'm not going to say their no for them.”

Scott Allen  11:32 

I love that phrasing. That's such a great mindset. One of the folks that I'm chasing right now, Adam Grant, the first time I reached out, I got a stock kind of, “Sorry I can't,” from a team member. The last time I got a rejection, it was actually from him. So, I’m progressing. 

William Attaway  11:48

Nice, you’re stepping up. 

(Laughter)

William Attaway  11:52

That's awesome. 

Scott Allen  11:53

So, I have five or six of those kind of in the bin, but I just keep going back, sipping away. And we'll see how this works.

William Attaway  12:01 

Persistence. I'm not going anywhere.

Scott Allen  12:06 

Any others? Any other kind of observations that stand out for you about just this whole process of podcasting? And then I want to get to your coaching a little bit. 

William Attaway  12:14 

I think one of the things that I did not see coming when I started the show is the networking potential. And thinking from a business perspective, I had no idea. I'm thinking about conversations that I had with a guest who then said, “Hey, I would love for you to come do some training for my team,”  and so I would go do that. And the feedback on that was positive. They're like, “Hey, would you come to our conference, to a live event? We'd love for you to come to do that,” and then that turns into a long-term engagement, all from a conversation on a podcast with somebody who reached out, or I reached out to them. That type of networking and relationship building, I did not foresee that at the beginning as this is something this could turn into, but I see it more and more. You either build a relationship, and sometimes you just make a friend. There's no lose there. There's no lose there because I'm building a relationship with somebody that we can still add value to one another in what we're doing. But the networking component of it, maybe this is something people talk about all the time. I had never heard it really discussed, but that's been a massive benefit experientially for me.

Scott Allen  13:23 

Yeah. My sense is that I think some people have the podcast only for the business development kind of angle, and it feels a little less authentic to me at times. 

William Attaway  13:35

Transactional.  

Scott Allen  13:36

Yes, transactional. “I'm just kind of churning and burning through these things.” At least, for me, I can kind of tell when that's a little bit more of the driver than just… When I'm on your show, it's just authentic, awesome conversation. I feel that, I feel the interest, I feel the enthusiasm. If it goes somewhere; awesome. It's been the same for me. It might just be that I released an episode and someone reaches out on LinkedIn and says, “Hey, your announcement of your episode today reminded me to reach out to you.” “Oh, okay, that's great.” Or, for me, it's led to some writing projects where I hadn't necessarily thought about writing with someone, but afterwards it just was like, “Hey, we should put something together and write this up.” And I think we could probably talk about this longer. There's other benefits too, whether it's just highlighting someone else's good work that needs to have a little light shined on it and putting out some goodwill in the world. For me, the mission is how do we better prepare people to do this really challenging work of leadership? In your coaching practice, you see it all the time, what is being asked of some of these individuals. It's Herculean. It's not easy work. And so, anything we can do to better prepare people and to connect people with some people who are thinking about this work in ways that may be of benefit; cool, I'm in. Let's do it. 

William Attaway  14:58 

100%. One of my primary reasons for starting the podcast was to add value to people in their journey. Not everybody can afford to hire an executive coach, they're not at that place yet, but the podcast is a way that they can learn and grow where they are, and they can learn from incredible leaders. And I tell every guest that I do a pre-interview with, I say “There's two main targets for every episode. One is to add value to the people who are listening. These are people in the entrepreneurial space, business leaders, agency owners. This is the people who are listening to the show. I want to add value to them with our conversation. And second, I want to spotlight and highlight people who are doing great work. And if I can hit both of those with an episode, that's a home run.” 

Scott Allen  15:43 

I love that, clarity and focus in what you're trying to accomplish. Okay. Let's transition a little bit into your coaching work. We're at 2024 and we've come out of some adventurous years in the recent past. What are you seeing? What are some themes or some trends that some of the executives you're working with are experiencing right now? What comes to mind for you?

William Attaway  16:07 

One of the biggest challenges that I'm seeing consistently these days, higher way than I've seen in the past --  I've been doing this work for almost 30 years -- right now, people are having a real challenge with difficult conversations. There are many areas of conflict and challenge relationally, whether it's leading up or whether it's leading laterally, or whether it's leading down. And these difficult conversations, these tension points in the workplace, they're not going anywhere. A friend of mine says bad news is not like a fine wine, it does not get better with age. And so, we've got to be mindful of that. And I'm watching people make one of two choices, they either sweep it under the rug and hope it's going to go away on its own. It's never going to do that. Or they step toward it and they deal with it directly, but in an unhealthy way. That is one thing I'm working with a lot of people on right now, and that's really resonated because there are so many and they're like, “Oh yeah, this team member.” “Oh yeah, this person or one of my clients.” “Oh man, this customer.” Even sometimes on a personal level, for relationships inside the home or with friendships. Heaven forbid you start bringing the election year into it. The number of tension points and conflict potential points seem higher than I've seen before, and helping people navigate those conversations is becoming a weekly practice for me. 

Scott Allen  17:39 

Really, because you're right, just add humans and conflict, and that will forever endure. There's going to be those differences. And one thing I see recently along that vein is that… Because, yes, we do not train people well. I didn't go to college for having difficult conversations. That wasn't my degree. And when we elevate individuals to these positions of authority, they probably haven't necessarily built that skill. And when I say skill, I'm not saying gone to a two-hour workshop once, I'm saying you're truly skilled. What was that George Clooney movie where he just went around firing people, but he got really good at it where they would say, “Thank you” at the end? ‘Up in the Air’ or something like that. 

William Attaway  18:28

(Laughs) Exactly.

Scott Allen  17:39 

Skilled. And one interesting thing with some of the HR law kind of shifts and some of the legal shifts that are kind of occurring out there, you have to be skilled at this work because how you respond to certain conversations, how you respond in certain situations, not only can it do damage culturally, but you can find yourself in HR, you can find yourself in a lawsuit. It's more complex. It's much more complex than the 90s when I could just kind of yell at you and you'd go back to your desk and do your thing. I was in an organization the other day, and this gentleman said -- I'm going to use the name Luis -- he looked at me and he said, “Luis of 1999 is not how Luis of 2024 deals with these situations.” And I said, “That's good because that would get you in a lawsuit.” So, we're being challenged to up our game.

William Attaway  19:23 

Yeah, 100%. And if we don't up our game, that's exactly what's going to happen. We're going to end up in a ditch. We're going to end up in a lawsuit. We're going to end up in HR. That's the reality of the situation. Growth only happens on the other side of change. Everybody wants to grow, but not everybody wants to change. And one of the things that I find myself frequently reminding clients of is that, when it comes to having difficult conversations, change is a non-negotiable constant. You've got to be continuing to move forward, and adapting, and learning, and listening. You've got to create a different framing. A framing that I often will give clients here is you're going into this with conflict with someone else, and you're going into it saying, “Okay, it's me against you.” You got to reframe that. It's not me against you, it's me and you against the problem. We're together on this. And when you approach it with that mindset and that framing, what's going to happen is that is going to be communicated at a non-verbal level. And they are going to receive that far differently. How you say what you say, in William's opinion, matters as much or more than what you actually say. 

Scott Allen  20:41 

Wow. The congruence there can be felt if it's not congruent. The non-verbal, the verbal, and the spirit and the tone within which you really begin that dialog. Yes, I love it. Okay. So, that's kind of theme number one, humans navigating conflict and some of the requirements for us to be better at getting in and out of some of these difficult conversations. What else? What else are you seeing?

William Attaway  21:13 

I see a lot of overwhelm. And clients are coming to me with a very massive sense of, “This is what I need. This is what is expected of me. This is what the role is demanding. This is what the company is demanding of me, and I don't know if I'm capable of that. I don't know if I can rise to this challenge.” And rarely does that get communicated in the first session. Usually, you have to build some trust. You have to build a safe environment, but over time, that's where it lands, “I'm not sure I'm capable of delivering what's expected here.” And so often, that's because of a sense of overwhelm, where there are so many demands, so many inputs into our world, into our lives today, and you've got to have a way to manage those inputs. You've got to have a way to manage the demands. This is why systems matter. I'm a systems thinker, and this is what I teach. I believe systems are how you create repeatable, predictable performance. This is true in a business, and this is true with you. You have systems, I have systems. When we are intentional about designing those systems in a way that is going to create, again, repeatable, predictable performance, that's when we find ourselves moving into a place of thriving instead of just barely keeping our head above the waterline.

Scott Allen  22:32 

Yeah. One of my favorite quotes on systems, ‘every system is perfectly designed for the results that it achieves.’

William Attaway  22:36 

Ed Deming. I love it.

Scott Allen  22:39 

So, here we are, the good, bad, and ugly of that. And that's where Alan's work can be so incredibly helpful with the ‘Getting Things Done.’ People with some tools and some ways of thinking about, okay, how can we begin to design a new system that might work for us? Because I think it's an adaptive challenge. Not one system will work for everyone, but are you designing the system that is going to best help you, probably not fix or solve, there's going to be some level of overwhelm, but can we reduce some of the stress? Can we move the needle on that?

William Attaway  23:15 

Absolutely. Most people are trying to keep up with everything in their heads. And this is where Alan often says, “Your mind is meant for having ideas, not for holding ideas.” Your brain makes a crappy office, it really does. Don't try to use it like a file cabinet. And so, I think we have to understand that. And when we begin to build systems in place then to help us manage all of the demands, all of the requests and asks and inputs, when we build those systems, and then we execute in a consistent way… And consistency is a big deal. Another friend says consistency is the mother of momentum. Everybody wants momentum, only way to get there is consistency. You have systems that you execute with consistency, then you begin to see overwhelm drop, and you begin to have a sense of, “Okay, you know what? I can do this,” because confidence comes from past performance. And the more you're able to execute and see a high-performance level going up, that gives you the confidence to step into the next day.

Scott Allen  24:24 

Yeah. You're just dropping quotes here, left and right. I'm loving this. This is great. You're arming me for a future conversation. I love this. “Growth is on the other side of change.” William, I'm loving this. Okay. 

(Laughter)

Scott Allen  24:46

So, overwhelm is another theme that we're seeing. How about a third one?

William Attaway  24:46 

I label it fear. And fear is a way too big of a word, and I want to dial this in tighter. What I mean by fear is… And this is particularly true in the entrepreneurial world. People who start a business, and at the beginning when you start a business, most often you have to do everything. You have to wear every hat. As you find success and you begin to hire people to help you with fulfillment, then those people look to you to lead them, and that's a different skill. You may be really great at whatever it is that you do, but leadership is a whole different thing, and that's why there are people who study this and help other people, like we do. But part of that process involves delegation, and the reason people do not delegate way more often than not is fear. And this is something that I'm dialing in right now with several different people, helping them to understand the root behind their lack of delegation. They have lots of reasons why they don't delegate, but it really boils down to, “I'm afraid they won't do it the way I do it. They won't do it to a level that I do it at. It takes me too long to delegate.” Okay. All three of those are rooted in fear. I heard somebody tell me one time, he said, “If somebody can do something 80% as well as you, you need to delegate it.” And I pushed back. I was like, “I'm sorry, 80%, that's a C.” Depends on your rubric. This is C work, we don't do C work here. That's not who we are, that's not what we deliver for our clients. And the more I thought about that, and the more I really ruminated, I realized that's a starting point, that is not the terminus. Okay. If they can do it 80% as well, I need to let them do it. I'm still going to coach them, I'm still going to encourage them, and we're going to continue to move that up… There's a sticky note I've had on my left monitor for many, many years, and it has a question on it that I need to see every single day, here it is. “Is this the absolute best use of my time right now?” 

Scott Allen  26:57 

Oh, wow. I love that.

William Attaway  26:58 

I have to ask myself that every single day, Scott, and the reason I do is because I find myself doing things that other people can do. Time is your one most valuable non-renewable resource. You can always make more money, you cannot make more time. How you spend your time is a choice.

Scott Allen  27:19 

I love that and I need that sticky note. I need that sticky note badly too.

William Attaway  27:24 

I do too, that's why it's there. I keep thinking maybe one year I'll say, “Okay, I think I've got that lesson. I think I'm good. I can proceed.” Nope, not yet. I still need it. 

Scott Allen  27:35 

Well, William, as we begin to wind down our time together, I just really appreciate this conversation. I think, for me, it's so nice to connect with you on just the podcasting element of this. And for listeners, it has just been, I think, for both of us -- I'm speaking for both of us, but please push back if you disagree -- it's just been six or seven wins in the sense that we're building relationships, building a network, learning and systematizing that learning, we are highlighting the good work of others, hopefully being helpful in the world. And there's practicing communication. It leads to potential business at times, it leads to writing projects at times. There's so many wins in this activity of podcasting, and I've just loved that. And then, your wisdom around what you're seeing in that coaching space, and having done this work for 30 years, that's just incredibly impressive. And I'm wondering why we haven't gotten to all seven continents yet, but maybe someone at that Antarctica station will call one day. I don't know. (Laughs)

William Attaway  28:41 

I'm waiting for it. I'm just waiting. If you are listening to this and you are in Antarctica, let's have a conversation. Let's just talk.

Scott Allen  28:47 

If you’re in a station, can we just call it a coaching conversation? Just call me. It's pro bono. 

William Attaway  28:56

Pro bono. All right.

(Laughter) 

Scott Allen  28:59

I just need to be able to say I've got all seven. My listenership shaking in Antarctica is very, very strong, so I think…

William Attaway  29:05 

Excellent. I love that. 

Scott Allen  29:09 

I'm kind of a big deal. Bulgarian and Antarctica, this podcast here. 

William Attaway  29:15

Oh, I love it. 

Scott Allen  29:

I very, very much appreciate you sharing what you're seeing on the ground. And yeah, it's complex. It's very complex. And we don't often do a good enough job preparing people for some of these roles. That's another passion of mine, like, how do we better prepare people to serve in these roles? Because I think we're being required to be better, and the engagement scores and all of that would kind of indicate that maybe we aren't there yet. We have opportunity here, but we're going to have to really elevate our game to move the needle on some of that. So, I always wind down these conversations by saying, asking guests, I should say, what you've been listening to, what's caught your attention recently. It could have to do with what we've just discussed, it might just be something you're streaming and you found kind of interesting. It's caught your eye. So, what has caught your attention in recent times, William?

William Attaway  30:06 

I'm reading a book right now that was recommended to me, actually, by a podcast guest. And I have not finished it so I can't tell you, about halfway through it. But it is making me think new thoughts in different ways, and those are always my favorite books. Not that you agree with everything, but you eat the fish and you leave the bones. And if there's more fish than bones, this becomes one that I say, “Hey, you should check this out.” The book's title is ‘The Business of Expertise,’ and it's a phenomenal read so far. It's by David C Baker. And what Baker does in the book is talk about the work that we do, really, whether it's in academia, whether it's in the executive coaching that I do, the speaking that we do, the writing that we do. How do we do that in such a way that it adds maximum value? It's really solid. And I love… He's thinking about this, it's a very different perspective. I like the way he's thinking. I'm taking a lot of notes that's helping me to think in some new ways. And that, to me, is the measure of a great book.

Scott Allen  31:11 

Yeah. And your statement about ‘it was given to me by a podcast guest,’ yes, my Audible is just loading, and it's all books that were recommended. And you start to hear themes, “Oh, I've been reading this, so this has been on my radar.” Okay, good. I will put that link to that in the show notes. For listeners, I'm going to put a lot of links to William's work in the show notes as well so you'll have access to that. William, real quick before we end, how can listeners learn more about you and your services? 

William Attaway  31:44 

You can go to catalyticleadership.net, and that's kind of the central hub for everything that we do. You can find out about the podcast, the books that I've written, a lot of the speaking that I do, the coaching that I do, both individual, one-on-one and group coaching. And you can connect with me on LinkedIn. I do webinars on LinkedIn every month, trying to add value to people there. I have a newsletter there where I just share some thoughts about what I'm currently reading, and learning, and things that are challenging me. And so, I'd love to connect with your listeners there and continue to invest in them and also learn from them. Because when we're connected, you start showing up in my feed, which means I get to learn from you. And I'm a learner, so that's a win.

Scott Allen  32:26 

Exactly. We will talk again in probably, I don't know, maybe a year, and you can tell me about the feeling of what it is to be Antarctica's most prolific coach. 

William Attaway  32:40 

I can't wait. I'm in.

Scott Allen  32:41 

Every one of the stations will be functioning much better. The systems will be in place. I'm excited. I really am. 

William Attaway  32:50 

2025 goals. 

Scott Allen  32:54 

2025,goals. Okay, sir, be well. Thank you so much.

William Attaway  32:56 

Thank you, Scott.

[End Of Recording]