Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott Allen

Dr. Lisa Marie Kerr, Dr. Liz Cavallaro, & Dr. Leigh Ann Perry - Leader Development at the Naval War College

• Scott J. Allen • Season 1 • Episode 252

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Dr. Lisa Marie Kerr is an Associate Professor in the College of Leadership and Ethics at the U.S. Naval War College (NWC). She joined NWC in September 2022 after a 30-year career in civilian higher education focusing on student success, learning assessment, and leader development. Dr. Kerr contributes to executive leader development for the U.S. Navy. Her scholarship focuses on effective facilitation for learning among mid-career and executive military leaders.

Dr. Liz Cavallaro is currently a tenured Associate Professor of Leader Development at the U.S. Naval War College (USNWC), in Newport, RI. She is an Executive Coach, Adult Development Scholar, Educator, and Leader Development Practitioner. Her research interests include a range of topics relevant to the development of leaders, including cognitive development, coaching, self-awareness, organizational development, wellbeing, meaningful work, and eudaimonia.

Dr. Leigh Ann Perry joined the U.S. Naval War College’s (NWC) College of Leadership and Ethics faculty in June 2021 as an Associate Professor of Psychology and Behavioral Science supporting Navy leader development in the areas of psychological health, holistic wellness, resilience, and mindfulness. Dr. Perry is a National Board-Certified Health and Wellness Coach (NBC-HWC) and International Coaching Federation (ICF) Associate Certified Coach (ACC). She also volunteers as the RI State Director for the Veterans Yoga Project.


A Quote From This Episode

  • "I am enjoying the conversations we're having right now related to spiritual readiness and the role that resilience plays in caring for the holistic sailor."


Resources Mentioned in This Episode


About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

  • The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. 


About  Scott J. Allen


My Approach to Hosting

  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.








Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.

Scott Allen  0:00 

Okay, everybody, welcome to the Phronesis podcast. Thanks for checking in wherever you are in the world. Fun conversation today. Very, very excited. Three guests, so we're going to see how this goes. This is going to be a little bit of an adventure. We have Dr. Leigh Ann Perry, and she joined the US Naval War Colleges, College of Leadership and Ethics faculty in June 2021 as an associate professor of psychology and behavioral science, supporting Navy leader development in the areas of psychological health, holistic wellness, resilience, and mindfulness. Dr. Perry is a national board-certified health and wellness coach, and International Coaching Federation associate certified coach, she also volunteers as the Rhode Island State Director for the Veterans Yoga Project. Dr. Liz Cavallaro is currently a tenured associate professor of leadership development at the US Naval War College in Newport, Rhode Island. She is an executive coach, adult development scholar, educator, and leadership development practitioner. Her research interests include a range of topics relevant to the development of leaders, including cognitive development, coaching, self-awareness, organizational development, well-being, meaningful work, and happiness, and flourishing. Because Liz, I can't say that word, but it's in the bio for listeners. If you're interested in what that word is that I can't pronounce, to Aristotle or something, I'm going to just say happiness and flourishing. Maybe you can tell us at the end, keep listeners in total suspense Liz. Okay. Dr. Lisa Marie Kerr is an associate professor in the College of Leadership and Ethics at the US Naval War College. She joined MWC in September 22 after a 30-year career in civilian higher education, focusing on student success, learning assessment, and leader development. Dr. Kerr contributes to executive leader development for the US Navy. Her scholarship focuses on effective facilitation for learning among mid-career, and executive military leaders. You all, thank you so much for being with me today. Very, very much appreciate your time. Maybe each one of you could just share a little bit more. Maybe something that isn't in the bio, but maybe something that would be of interest to listeners. Liz, would you start us off?

 

Liz Cavallaro  2:13  

Absolutely happy to. I'll share a little bit about the work that I've been doing over the last nine years from the lens of, why did they even hire me? And I think all three of us are going to have a story that starts something like that, because we're all civilians, and we work in this military institution. And when I was hired, there were some folks working on the team whose focus was executive coaching, and in particular, building leader self-awareness through psychometric assessment tools. So, things like personality psychology assessment tools. And they had found some success in utilizing those with military audiences, and there was starting to be an increased demand for that work. So, I was hired to do some executive coaching, do some leader development with our students, and I ended up getting certified in a bunch of these different psychometric assessment tools to help out the folks on our team who were already doing that very successfully because we needed more people. And what was really cool about that was two things. One, even though I had no idea that the Naval War College was a place where a civilian faculty member even could work, the folks on the team did that very deliberately because they wanted someone doing the coaching that was going to be really outside the norm from what the students were used to working with. Very different from having someone coach you who is a senior military officer, someone who has maybe more of a mentorship role to you because they've been where you've been, and had similar experiences and been successful. To have someone who's completely outside of that world with a really different perspective is exactly what they were looking for. And so, it was really interesting to find that I feel like I'm walking into this environment having absolutely no idea what's going on, total fish out of water. And that was actually not only a good thing and a beneficial thing, but exactly what they wanted. So, it made it really easy to feel like I had no idea what was going on, but just to say that's a good thing. And then, the other thing that was really interesting was to do that in my first year of working there. I went and took courses to get certified in eight different psychometric assessment tools and did my year-long coaching program. So, by the end of one year, I was so incredibly sick of myself. Because when you go get certified in these things, the most important thing is that you're the guinea pig first. You have to have all of these tools done for yourself, and you get other people debriefing you on your reports. And so, I was so incredibly sick of myself after that year, but then really glad to be able to turn that knowledge around and help the students. 

 

Scott Allen  4:54 

I love it. I imagine you tapping a former coworker, “Hey, could you do another 360 on me real quick?” (Laughs) “This one's only 270 questions.” Awesome, awesome. Lisa, how about you? 

 

Lisa Marie Kerr  5:11 

Sure. First, thanks for having us. It is really a great privilege for us to be with you, and we've been looking forward to this conversation for a bit. So, why did the Naval War College hire me? Its still a good question, I think, from day to day. Like, what is this? But much like Liz, this has been an amazing opportunity to come in as a civilian, unfamiliar with the military overall, specifically the Navy. And so, it's been fun and fascinating at this point in my career to try something new. To take all of these lessons that I have been teaching others for a long time and facilitating discussions about the importance of continually learning and how you engage in different things to keep yourself going. And that has been with this experience at the Naval War College from day one. One of the things that I'm really interested in is learning assessment. And so, the military overall, specifically at the Naval War College, is focusing a lot more on outcomes, so they have outcomes-based military education is a piece of the process. And learning to be able to identify and then assess the learning outcomes amongst executive leaders is a fascinating and productive challenge to be able to be a part of. Working with these amazing individuals, mid-career officers, in a joint service type of experience, all the way up through the highest ranks within the Navy. Working with international partners across the board, just having the opportunity to work with exceptional leaders has been phenomenally fun, and continually learning on my own. So, I think that's one of the best benefits of having to come into this experience, in addition to working with just a phenomenal group of people. So, we all are here living and working in this growth mindset piece, really challenging each other and learning from each other. It's been a lot of fun, and the differences that we are able to see from the work that we're doing is fantastic. 

 

Scott Allen  7:27

Awesome. So, Leigh Ann.

 

Leigh Ann Perry  7:29

So, I've a similar story to Liz and Lisa. I'm also a civilian. I had a bit of experience with the Department of Navy because I had formerly worked for over a decade with the Naval Criminal Investigative Service, NCIS, doing some research there and some analytical work. I did have a bit of experience, but still not a military member myself. I like to tell a story that when I did my job talk, the interview portion, and Liz is smiling because she knows about this, I gave the job talk on the benefits of teaching mindfulness to military leaders. And when I was prepping the talk, my partner said, “Do you not want this job? What are you doing?” Because he thought that was not going to be well received, and there was nothing like that being done at the War College. There weren't pieces of psychology being looked at, let alone mindfulness and resilience work. So, I came to the War College wanting to do that and bring in this resilience-building piece, with mindfulness being one of those options. Prior to coming here, my whole career before this was with criminal psychology and crime, as well as analyzing the behavior of bad actors and bad actor groups, some of the worst of the worst in terms of bad behavior. But what I found when I was in those environments and when I was working on criminal behavior was the people around me, the agents, the analysts, the researchers, the investigators, who were taking a toll on them in these high-stress occupations. It was taking a toll on their health, psychologically, but also just generally, physical health, social health, all those things. And so, I thought, “If I'm seeing that in these high-stress occupations, the military is another high-stress occupation, so why not bring the clinical psychology background I have looking at how you bolster protective factors? Do you work on fostering resilience before things get stressful? Before you need to be tackling that.” And so, that's what I wanted to bring, and that's what I've been working on since I've come here, is how do we work on building resilience, particularly using mindfulness applications and tools to not only lower stress, I think oftentimes people think about mindfulness as a stress reduction tool, and it is, not taking away from that, but also, how do you utilize that as a contribution to readiness, and productivity, and overall performance? How do you utilize that to build up your cognitive fitness and your cognitive capacities? To go with the things that Liz works on with students here, and the type of learning and facilitating that Lisa does, how can we utilize those mindfulness tools for that as well? For that productivity piece, for the performance piece, and also for overall readiness? And so, that's a little bit about what I try to bring here at War College.

 

Scott Allen  10:15 

I have this word that's… Well, it's more of a phrase that's going through my mind, which is ‘beginner's mind.’ And it's not that any of you are “beginners,” quote-unquote, but what I love about this is that… And it was Paul Nickel, I think, who introduced us because he's listened to the podcast and commented on the podcast. Thank you, Paul, if you're listening. When you listen, I should say. Thank you for the introduction. But I think it's so wonderful to have that perspective of fresh eyes in a context at times, and eyes that aren't the norm who have come up through the system. And I think that can be a huge benefit to organizations. We talk a lot about that in design, design thinking that beginner's mind and how beneficial that can be. I just have great respect A) For the three of you, saying, “Yes, we're going to take on this challenge and enter this new context,” but then) That the context said, “Maybe this is something we need.” Right? Does that resonate at all for all of you?

 

Lisa Marie Kerr  11:12 

Absolutely. I think that it has been amazing to see the perspectives of diversity that play out in our conversations. And diversity of mindset, diversity of skill set, diversity of backgrounds and experiences, and the amazing pieces. You do so much reading in this field about the value and importance of having a comprehensive group around the table and being inclusive to the different voices. This experience, working at the War College, working with these groups of individuals that we get to work with is fascinating because the diversity of experience and exposure that comes along with that brings depth to the conversations and options for creativity and problem-solving when we're dealing with some of the most complex problems in the world. It’s just stunning to watch it in practice. We are living that new mind, so to speak, process. We have front-row seats to seeing how the diverse perspectives accumulate together to come up and synthesize something new that had never been considered before in such an amazingly dynamic environment.

 

Scott Allen  12:29 

That is so cool. That is so beautifully phrased. Leigh Ann.

 

Leigh Ann Perry  12:33 

I think it's also a testament to our leadership here in the College of Leadership and Ethics that they welcome that. They want those diverse perspectives. The three of us on this podcast are evidence of that, the fact that we were hired then. And so, everything Lisa said about that diversity of thought and of experience, that couldn't happen here without those people in leadership roles that welcomed people like us in and that support us in doing things that the War College hadn't been doing before. So, I think it's a testament to that as well. 

 

Scott Allen  13:07 

Liz, let's take a little bit of a tour. And I know that some of you have hinted at this so far, but let's take a little bit of a tour of maybe some interesting things that the War College is exploring right now. It could be your work, it could be just other conversations that are happening that you can share that maybe listeners would be like, “Wow, that's really interesting.” I know there's been some wows already in just the fact that… The conversation so far of perceptions being broken down. But what are some other conversations that you're excited about that are intriguing to you, that maybe listeners would be interested in? Liz, would you start us off? 

 

Liz Cavallaro  13:47 

Sure, I think that's a really useful way of thinking about it in terms of what's surprising that's happening. And I think one of the things that, as a civilian without a military background, some of the preconceived notions that you have about what are made and senior level military officers going to be like in terms of learning and education? What is their mindset and attitude going to be coming into the classroom? And you think about how incredibly successful they've been in their career thus far, how many times they must have been promoted, how many awards and recognitions they've received, and you think, “Gosh, I probably have my work cut out for me as an educator, as a coach.” Growth mindset is something we talk about constantly, intellectual humility, openness to new experience. These concepts that are scientifically backed, that are linked to all of the academic disciplines that the three of us study, that we walk into these environments knowing that if we don't have that from our students, that the kind of development that we're after isn't going to happen. And so, I think the example of their openness to civilian perspectives, or bringing in these really diverse viewpoints into the work is a testament to the fact that this growth mindset and openness to learning is actually a built-in part of the culture and is understood by leaders in the organization as an absolute necessary precondition to continuing to get better. Because while on the one hand, they value things like confidence and having a good leader presence, and a lot of things that you might think would work against that kind of humility, on the other hand, one of the most significant cultural factors, I think, is a belief that this is an organization where it is their responsibility to continually evolve and improve the profession itself. They refer to themselves as members of the profession of arms. And one of the tenets of being a professional in a profession, capital P, is this obligation to continually evolve, iterate, and improve your organization. And as a steward of that organization, that's something you're expected to do as a part of how you do your work. So, not just do things at the level that is expected and continue to excel and perform within the current parameters, but continue to question and examine the profession itself and identify where it might need to evolve, where it might need to respond to changing environments or circumstances, and how it does that in conjunction with changes in society. And so, there is an incredibly high level of sophistication in the leaders of these organizations in understanding that, and then having and demonstrating the humility that goes along with then actually being able to do that, which is a whole other story. And I think that we've all observed a lot of that, and I think it's why we're all here. And then it happens to line up really perfectly with a lot of the academic practices and leader development practices that we like to utilize in the classroom.

 

Scott Allen  17:01 

Awesome. Lisa, how about you? What has surprised you, intrigued you? What stood out for you? But what are some conversations right now that you're finding intriguing? 

 

Lisa Marie Kerr  17:11 

So, I would say one of the things that I am enjoying in the conversations we're having right now is related to spiritual readiness and the role that plays in resilience and the recognition of taking care of the holistic sailor. And so, having the opportunity to work, not just with the chaplain corps, yes, they are a big part of that process, but having those conversations and a willingness, openness, to talk through the different components of readiness and incorporating the whole individual to the spirit and to recognizing the value that has to the individual's ability to maintain, to continue, and to excel and perform at the highest levels, has been really fun, and it's a space where I'm looking into developing a little bit more of my research agenda. Recognizing the factors that allow those conditions to be in place to where individuals are working on their spirituality, connecting with something other than themselves, and bringing that into the regular conversations with regards to, “How are you?” To ask somebody, “How is your spirit?” It is not necessarily something we in this culture tend to do. And by this culture, I mean Western culture. It's not necessarily something that you would expect to transpire in a military environment either. However, there are opportunities and doors opening to have that kind of conversation, which I think is beneficial for the organization in total, as well as the individuals within it. So, that's a fun conversation that we're engaging in that I'm really enjoying.

 

Scott Allen  18:57 

A couple of things I imagine. So, spiritual readiness is probably, regardless of faith, correct? These chaplains probably have to be trained in a number of different faiths; it's less about, “Hey, here's the faith we value,” it's about, “Are you grounded in some level of spirituality, or belief system, or value system, that, again, helps ground you as you then go do the work?” Is that dancing around what we're up to here? 

 

Liz Cavallaro  19:26 

Yeah. It's the process of recognizing that there is something bigger than yourself and how that then can inform the reasons, the hows, and the whys you do what you do. And to recognize that it is not only acceptable but also encouraged to consider how that form of belongingness beyond the temporal motivates you, and how you can apply that in working with and leading others. So, there's so many facets of this process. One area that I'm looking into and considering is what role your sense of spirituality has in your willingness to engage in creative, critical thinking. So, if there's a recognition that there's something beyond you, there's something that is unknown, yet, if you can connect individuals recognition that, “I do believe in something out there that I can't see,” then why can you not turn around and utilize that same mindset towards some of these wicked problems that we're looking at? How can you reach beyond what is known and be comfortable in that sense of unknown, let yourself sit there, think more deeply, and listen to where all the different ways are that you can get information? So, the layers and the levels of spiritual readiness is fascinating, all in all. And, like I would say, the conversation is with the chaplains. That is their primary purpose at Chaplain Corp, and they do an amazing job with that. And one of the processes we're working on together as a team is setting the conditions to where those conversations can happen with and without chaplains present.

 

Scott Allen  21:17 

Oh, wow. Yeah. Again, wouldn't expect it. Leigh Ann, we're going for the hat trick here, what do you got?

 

Leigh Ann Perry  21:25 

They set a really high bar, so let me see what I can do with this. I'm going to build off of what Lisa was talking about with the spiritual fitness. Something that I've been seeing since I've been here is this increased focus on executive wellness. So, this holistic wellness at the executive level is important. And, as a psychologist, admittedly, I'm biased that I think wellness is important. But what we're seeing happen is this look at wellness as a contributor to performance, to optimizing performance, not just for self, but also for the team, for the organization, for the people around you. And so, there has been a push from the highest levels of the Navy to make sure that there is leader development that focuses itself on executive wellness as one of its key components, the highest levels of leadership. It's executive leaders. And so, we're seeing that in courses with flag officers. We're seeing it with some of our senior leaders here at the War College. We're seeing it across the fleet. And it's not just the War College saying, “Wait, you all need to know about this,” this is coming from the highest levels of leadership in the Navy. I see that as very promising. Part of that is what Lisa was talking about with spiritual fitness.  Also, other things like social fitness, psychological fitness, emotional fitness, cognitive, physical, all of those things, and how, yes, these executive leaders are very high up in an organization and have a lot of procedures around titles, but in the end, we are all human beings. And human beings have to operate with all of those different facets of their life, no matter where you are in an organization. And so, in order to be able to optimize your level of performance, your level of productivity, basically, being your best self for the Navy, you have to be at your best in terms of your own health. And we know that as you get to these higher levels of responsibility, within the Navy, but also in any organization, there's more demands on you. There's more stressors on you. You're getting pulled in more directions. There's more possible distractions. And so, I think talking about the importance of this holistic health and wellness, look at those very senior levels of leadership is really important. And the Navy is taking that very seriously and is asking that be incorporated into these leader development courses. And so, I see that as really promising. What I also see is promising is that the participants in these leader development courses are also welcoming this. Now, every now and then, you get a sideways glance at the beginning of the conversation, and you would expect that, but normally, by the time we get to the end of even the first conversation around this at any course, most of the participants are understanding where we're coming from and how we are talking about this in terms of performance and readiness, and how they all link together. And so, that's something that I've seen that I wasn't quite expecting. And even in the three and a half years I've been here, I've seen growth in that, even in that short amount of time I.

 

Scott Allen  24:38 

I had a guest on, his name is Peter Rea, and he was a professor at Baldwin Wallace College in Northeast Ohio. And then he works now for a Fortune 500. He's kind of like a resident Professor internally for this Fortune 5. He wrote a book called Better Human, Better Performance, and has really anchored that organization into their virtues. And if we can help people live out of that kind of foundation in that space, you have a better human, better performance. And they've actually done some really interesting quantitative work around their initiatives. I also had a guest named Amy Elizabeth Fox. She is the co-founder of Mobius, executive leadership. She uses the phrasing ‘performance ready.’ What are we doing to ensure that these individuals… Because what she said is that the people coming into her programs are just exhausted. They're not their best selves, they're not healthy in the sense that there's balance there. Hnd healthy human; healthy leader. A developmentally mature leader is probably a little bit better off if you have a leader who is, at least, working on that. Because I don't know that any of us ever arrive, but is that a way of being? And s, I very much appreciate the approach that you all are taking because I think, probably in a lot of organizations, we do the nuts and bolts really well, but what are we doing to support the human who's enduring that, and are they well? Liz, maybe you came across this with… I don't know if you did Hogan assessments, but one of my favorite quotes ‘who you are is how you lead.’ And so, who are you, and are you a healthy individual, or are you something different than that? And, oof, fascinating. Here's my little contribution, and this is from an outsider's perspective, but you've come across Jaco Willing's work, I have to believe. I've been listening to both of his books, ‘Extreme Ownership and Dichotomy of Leadership.’ And I listen to them, so it's like having Batman Read me a book, which is really fun and interesting. “Ramadi, south side.” So, it's kind of like that for nine hours. But what I really, really appreciated about his work was that I cringed at the first book. ‘Extreme Ownership,’ I was like, “Oof, this is going to get mistranslated out there in industry, and you're going to have a machine shop person demanding extreme ownership of their people. And it's not going to go well in certain places.” And, at the beginning of the second book, he kind of owned that. He learned. He saw how it was being interpreted out in the field, and he and Leif just basically say, “Look, extreme ownership can be taken to an extreme. It's about having some level of balance, and I'm not going to get these balances correct, but that confidence with humility, and balancing having a plan with analysis paralysis.” So, even in their rhetoric and their work as seals, what was so interesting is that their language is moving more towards, “Look, are we balanced in this? And it's not always assertive and aggressive in taking extreme ownership, but there are times when that's not appropriate.” And I at least appreciated the fact that they learned, and they said, “Hey, look, we learned once this interfaced with the world.” And then, B) My own bias is that how are we balancing some of these things? Balancing the work with my health, being a whole person? And so, I imagine as an organization, at times, any of the military branches and others can be very lopsided in their approach on the work, and maybe not giving that attention to that human to the degree. What do you think?

 

Leigh Ann Perry  28:19 

So, I have a thought., and I think Lisa and Liz have heard me talk about this, you were using the word ‘balance,’ and we often hear work-life balance, things like that. I internally cringe at the word ‘balance’ because I think we're setting ourselves up to fail when we aim for perfect balance. That's just my way of looking at it. The way I like to look at it is more of an integration. So, how can we integrate all of these different pieces in the best way possible at any given moment? Because context matters too. That integration will look different depending on what your context is at that moment in time. And so, I know when I talk with students, and I present that to them, I say, “Maybe if we look at it in a way that approaches it from integration, as opposed to how do we balance this, then maybe then we give ourselves a little grace that it may not look like a perfect balance. You may not see the scales exactly even, but we may be able to, for our individual self and an individual context at any given time, be able to work with whatever that optimal integration is for the things that we're trying to kind of weave together.”

 

Scott Allen  29:28 

But if I could speak with them, the image I have in my head, and I love the word ‘integration’ as well, is just, for me, it's almost like a dial. I know that, in this moment, I'm working a little bit too much, this part is taking over to a greater degree than I would like it to, but I think balance can set us up for… Because that's false as well in a sense, that it's always balancing. I think sometimes we need to dial up the confidence a little bit, or sometimes we need to dial up the humility a little bit. And that's very nuanced, but yeah, the integration. I was on a conversation with a woman who wrote a book called ‘Hug of War.’ It was about family-owned businesses. And she was talking about polarities. And she was challenging me to hold both. Like, how do you hold both, the confidence and the humility at once? And I think that is a little bit of how you're thinking about integration, holding them both?

 

Liz Cavallaro  30:28 

This is really interesting in the context of helping people understand the premise of the importance of building up your reserves, and building up your ability to be resilient, and utilizing the time you have available when maybe the balance is a little bit better. And I think it's interesting because this is really applicable across any industry, but, in a military context, we have this very specific and visceral version of this, which is sort of the pre-deployment phase and the deployment phase, or, generally, the idea of the preparation that goes on before a potential conflict. And then, in particular, if you don't know when that's going to be. When some kind of emergent issue arises and we have to go into conflict, there is obviously a long tradition of having training, and preparation, and all of the things that go into making sure that the force is as ready as possible when that time comes, even when you don't always know when that's going to be. And that's obviously relevant for all of us, but what stands out to me is that there are these newer areas that we're talking about with spiritual fitness or cognitive fitness, and the work, especially that Leigh Ann does in mindfulness, where it's, “Okay, we already understand this concept incredibly well when it comes to taking care of our platforms, taking care of our equipment and supplies, taking care of our physical bodies to perform in whatever way they're expected to.” This is something that we have known for a long time and that the military is exceptional at. Others look at the military to say, “Okay, how do they do that? They do that really well.” And it's only in more recent years that we're looking at all of these other elements and the other things that make up the self as being as important, or maybe even, at times, more important for the whole individual to be prepared and to be resilient. And it's just something that I think is understood. And I think when we walk into classrooms and bring this up, despite the occasional side eye that Leigh Ann mentioned, there's an openness to it. There's a “Yes, we get why this is important, we want to do it,” but we're still on the cusp of figuring out the how. It's still, I think for a lot of folks, is a very overwhelming ask, and I think that's a lot of where our work centers, is trying to work with these folks to figure out how they can work it into all of the other stuff they already have going on, and what kinds of tangible habits and practices they can build into their routine in a way that is manageable and doesn't add to more overwhelm, but actually adds to resilience. And I think that's so incredibly important. And, again, it's really well understood. I worked with a guy a few years ago who was an aviator, and he had a really bad aviation mishap, and the doctors told him the only reason he survived was because he happened to be training for a triathlon in the period leading up to it, and his body was just in incredible shape, like, significantly more than normal, every aspect of him was in this really amazing shape because of the training. And he would not have survived otherwise, but he wasn't training for a triathlon because of that, he wasn't expecting this mishap to occur. But the fact that that is so well understood as it relates to the physical body and some of the physical turmoil that your body might go through. And if we can keep working at how do we help people to think about that in all of these other ways at the same time, I think that's a big crux of what we are all trying to work on right now.

 

Scott Allen  34:06 

Yes. And when you get into conversations, let's just go real quick to moral injury. And if I've done some of the pre-work on spiritual readiness or spiritual fitness, and I've done some of this work on the human side of all of this on the front end, maybe I will be better prepared. I'm not saying that it will solve or fix, but I may be better prepared and have a stronger foundation from which to navigate some of those experiences, which, in a military context, they come with the role. I have so much respect for the work that you all are doing. I'm so thankful that you took the time to be here. I have three new podcast episodes with each one of you individually that I want to jump into and learn more about. So, let's put that on the docket for the future, please. But I always wind down the conversation with just asking guests what you've been listening to. What's caught your attention in recent times? It could be something we've talked about right now, it might have nothing to do with what we've just discussed. Had a guest the other day say, “I've been watching Bridgerton. That's what I've been up to.” (Laughs) What's caught your attention? What's caught your attention? Liz.

 

Liz Cavallaro  35:19 

So, if one of our other colleagues was on the line with us, Bridgerton absolutely would have been the answer. But I can tell you, you can learn a lot from that show. I am reading a book right now that was sent to me by a friend. it's called ‘Likable Badass,’ and it's by Alison Fragale, and I apologize if I mispronounced that. But it's looking at how women can come into this space where we've kind of acknowledged all of the double standards that exist where women exhibiting the exact same leadership behaviors will be perceived incredibly differently and often unfairly than if a man exhibited the same thing. And so, it's coming into this space where we've acknowledged that, the research is clear. Now, what do we do with that, and how do we develop as leaders and as people in a way that understands that is the case? And then, doesn't accept it, doesn't say, “Hey, that's acceptable, the society is structured in this way,” but works within the reality and still allows us to be effective, but be ourselves and bring our actual strengths to the table? And so, this concept of likable badass allows the space for being driven, and hard-charging, and assertive, and powerful as women leaders, while also ensuring that we are honing and leveraging a lot of the other things that we also naturally have, like our communication skills, and our empathy, and our community building abilities that come very inherently. So, how are we leveraging and making the best out of those in a way that we can wrap that around the badassness that also exists and allows us to move forward and make awesome things happen? So, super cool book.

 

Scott Allen  37:01 

‘Likable badass.’ We will put that in the show notes, listeners. Leigh Ann, what do you think?

 

Leigh Ann Perry  37:06 

I have Jonathan Haidt, ‘The Anxious Generation.’ I've been listening to a lot of his interviews on podcasts. I have the book. I have not opened the book yet because I've been kind of running around, but my goal is to read through the book too. I've really enjoyed the podcast. For those who don't know [Inaudible 37:23] generation, Jonathan Haidt is a social psychologist, he also talks about moral psychology. But he in this book talks about the way that children's brains are being rewired in the age of social media, and how there have been links to psychological health, mental illness, and some social implications of that. Really want to dive more into that. And I'm also looking forward to, hopefully, another season of Ted Lasso. I think there's no better leader than Ted Lasso, and so very much looking forward to, hopefully, a new season of that.

 

Scott Allen  37:54 

It's a show that warms your heart, that's for sure.

 

Leigh Ann Perry  37:56 

Definitely, it does. A show that warms your heart.

 

Scott Allen  37:59

Lisa.

 

Lisa Marie Kerr  38:00

Yes. Originally, here is a little tidbit personally: I am from Detroit, Michigan. And so, right now, we're doing pretty well both in baseball and in football. I'm pretty excited about all of that, and it's been fun reconnecting with siblings as they talk through all the fun jabs and pokes about the Lions, specifically. But I am reading, I guess I should say reading/ listening, and working through ‘You Happier’ by Dr. Amen, and loving that book because it provides very specific examples of things that people can do to think through, “What do you put into your body?” So, food is medicine, and how can it complement or detract from your cognitive abilities and your emotional stability? So, that's a fantastic book with a lot of just helpful tidbits, and I'm always open to something of that nature. So, that's really trying to work on that sense of the body-mind connection in that book. ‘You Happier’ is a great one.

 

Scott Allen  39:06 

Okay. I'll put that in the show notes as well. To the three of you, thank you so much for stopping by and having a conversation. Again. I would love to have a conversation with each one of you about your specific area, I think that would absolutely be so much fun. Thank you for the good work that you're doing pushing us forward. I can't agree more that how do we focus on that whole person to ensure that that whole person is healthy? Not just their physical health or their cognitive ability but their whole self. I think that's a great place to be focused. So, thank you so much for your work.

 

Liz Cavallaro  39:39 

Thanks for having us. 


 

[End Of Recording]