Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott Allen

Betsy Myers - Logic Doesn't Inspire

• Scott J. Allen • Season 1 • Episode 251

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Betsy Myers is on a mission to improve leadership by developing leaders and teams who infuse passion and purpose into their organizations by leading from both the head and the heart.

With over three decades as a thought leader, author, speaker, and consultant, Betsy is a renowned expert on emerging leadership trends and women’s leadership. Her extensive experience includes working with corporate, government, non-profit, and higher education leaders. She is the author of Take the Lead: Motivate, Inspire, and Bring Out the Best in Yourself and Everyone Around You.

Betsy is currently a Senior Advisor at the Warren Bennis Leadership Institute at the University of Cincinnati. She also serves on the Council on Advancing Women in Business for the Export-Import Bank of the United States. 

A senior adviser to two U.S. presidents, Betsy served as President Clinton’s Advisor on Women’s Issues, was the first Director of the White House Office for Women’s Initiatives and Outreach, and was Chief Operating Officer of President Obama’s 2008 National Presidential Campaign.  

Previously, Betsy was founding director of the Center for Women and Business at Bentley University, a repository of best practices for corporations to recruit and retain women leaders. She was Executive Director of the Center for Public Leadership at Harvard’s Kennedy School, focusing the Center’s teaching and research around authentic inner leadership. She held leadership roles in the U.S. Small Business Administration, including as the Director of the Office of Women’s Business Ownership at the SBA where she was an advocate for the 9.4 million women entrepreneurs in the United States.

Betsy has a Masters in Public Administration from Harvard Kennedy School.

A Quote From This Episode

  • "There's a lot more we agree on than we disagree on...we have to move away from this 'othering.' We 'other' people - 'they're different from me, they're bad.'"


Resources Mentioned in This Episode


About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

  • The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. 


About  Scott J. Allen


My Approach to Hosting

  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.

Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.

Scott Allen  0:00 

Okay, everybody, welcome to the Phronesis podcast. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world. Today, I have Betsy Myers. She is on a mission to improve leadership by developing leaders and teams who infuse passion and purpose into their organization by leading from both the head and the heart. With over three decades as a thought leader, author, speaker, and consultant, Betsy is a renowned expert on emerging leadership trends and women's leadership. Her extensive experience includes working with corporate, government, nonprofit, and higher education leaders. She is the author of ‘Take the Lead: Motivate, Inspire, and Bring Out the Best in Yourself and Everyone Around You’. Betsy is currently a senior advisor at the Warren Bennis Leadership Institute at the University of Cincinnati. She also serves in the Council on Advancing Women in Business for the Export-Import Bank of the United States, and she also serves on the board of the International Leadership Association. A senior advisor to two US presidents, Betsy served as President Clinton's advisor on women's issues, was the first director of the White House office for women's initiatives and outreach, and was Chief Operating Officer of President Obama's 2008 national presidential campaign. Previously, Betsy was founding director of the Center for Women in Business at Bentley University, a repository of best practices for corporations to recruit and retain women leaders. She was an executive director of the Center for Public Leadership at Harvard's Kennedy School, focusing on the center's teaching and research around authentic inner leadership. She's held roles in the US Small Business Administration, including the Director of the Office of Women's Business Ownership at the SBA where she was an advocate for the 9.4 million women entrepreneurs in the United States. Betsy has a Master's in Public Administration from the Harvard Kennedy School. She does keynotes, presentations, fireside chats, panel moderating, interactive workshops, coaching retreats, consulting. She does it all. Betsy, what's not in your bio that people should know about you? Thank you so much for being here. 

 

Betsy Myers  1:55 

Oh, I'm so happy to be here on this beautiful fall day. Well, I'm a huge animal lover, so that's something it's not. I have two dogs, two Goldendoodles. One is 13, one's approaching 13, and I tend to pick up neighborhood dogs that need walks when I go out into the woods. So yeah, so that's a part of me that's really important. And I'm a mom to a just-graduated daughter from college, Madison. Those are my heart. 

 

Scott Allen  2:19 

Okay. So, I'm just on the front end of the college experience where our son is a junior in high school and we're starting that process. So, oh, geez. (Laughs)

 

Betsy Myers  2:30 

I know. I just ended it, but it's a wonderful process. But, yeah, we all go through it as parents.

 

Scott Allen  2:38 

Well, okay, I am so excited for this conversation because you have observed up close leadership, literally, at the highest levels. And what I would love to focus on today is what are some of those themes that you've experienced firsthand in just really effective executive leadership. And a couple of those themes that we can kind of tease those out and highlight those based on your experience, I think listeners would just love to learn about because you have a very, very unique purview. 

 

Betsy Myers  3:11 

Yeah. It's interesting. I've always had an interest in my whole life in why do we follow one leader and not another? Why does one leader inspire us and not another? I don't think we think about that when we're young. You have a teacher or a coach, you're not thinking about it in the ‘what would these as a leader,’ but you're watching this person, and you go back in your life and you go, “Whoa. What was it about my fifth-grade teacher, Hugh Beaton, who, to this day, all these years later, he has such a place in my heart? Because there was something about him that inspired me to be my best self. Because, when we think about leadership, yes, I've been in places like the White House where I've seen Cabinet Secretaries and a president, but I've also seen my child's teachers, her first-grade teacher who had such an impact on her. So, leadership is everywhere, and what is that? And so, that's the fascination, is that, when does it work and when does it not work? And what is it that's happening? And I think my work now is all kind of thinking about that over the years, and it's those people that inspire us because they make us feel that we matter. My work now is the integration of the head and heart. And Bill Clinton, as I cut my teeth and had the honor to be his head of his office for women in the White House as a young 30-something, watching this leader and what was it about Bill Clinton that made me want to work harder, be my best self? He had a way about him that, not only did he have the head part, and there was nobody who knew the details and the memory of Bill Clinton, but he also had this way about him that he treated his staff, the way he saw people, the way he remembered people and remembered people's names. And so that was my first indication of,”Wow, look at how this leader operates, but how I feel around him.” I never was afraid. I was a young staffer running this office, I was never afraid to tell him what I thought, or tell him if I didn't agree with something because he created that safety. And so, that, I think, is really an important aspect of leaders. It comes down to how your people feel about you. 

 

Scott Allen  5:10 

Yeah. Well, and you just kind of touched on a little bit of maybe what Amy Edmondson would say, that even as a young 30-something, I'm speaking with the President, yet I have the psychological safety to let them know what I think, what I feel, my perspective. It might not be agreed with, it might not be correct in their mind, but I felt like I could speak my mind, right?

 

Betsy Myers  5:32 

Mm-hmm. Yes, absolutely. And so, once you have that safety, when you come into any organization, the advisors are there because they are experts on certain areas. So, I was running the office for women, so he treated me like I actually knew something about women's issues, women's policy issues, stuff like that. So, he would actually be curious. I asked Warren Bennis [Inaudible 6:01]leadership if he could give a baby one gift in their life without it being born, he said the gift of curiosity. So, that curiosity about what other people think, not thinking you have all the answers. Sometimes with politicians or with leaders, they say, “Oh, they change their mind” and I'd say, “But a good leader changes their mind when their people bring data and information that allows them to rethink something where they already had an idea about. I think that's a good sign in a leader, to be able to actually count on your people who, on the front lines of your whatever the issues are, or the company, or the government, and come to you and say, “Hey, this is what's actually happening, and we need to adjust.”

 

Scott Allen  6:43 

Yes. Well, we have a couple of things in here so far, which I just love. So, we have an individual who you believe that they care, they care about you, and they are an individual who is focused on you. They're an individual who creates a space where there's psychological safety to say what you think, but they also know when to follow in some instances. When they aren't the expert, they need to shift gears. Even if I'm President of the United States, shift gears, step back, listen. And, of course, if leaders didn't change their minds, you're going to be out of business pretty darn quickly as everything around you shifts. 

 

Betsy Myers  7:22 

You know what's really interesting? This is 28 years ago in the re-election campaign of Bill Clinton when he was running against Bob Dole, we did not have websites. Think about that. We did not have websites. So, 28 years ago, and then you look at the change that’s just happened if you just look at our political cycles. So, then 2000, Gore and Bush, we had website. 2004 Governor Dean from Vermont was the first political leader to use the internet to raise money. 2008, Obama, Hillary, John Edwards, all used the internet to start raising money and start organizing. in 2007/8, when we think about Obama's election, that's like 16 years ago, it feels like yesterday, but we just started texting. We didn't have Twitter till the end of the Obama campaign in 08. So, you think about where we've even come in 2008 to what we're doing now in 24 in our elections, and how we're using social media. During the 90s, for those of us that remember, there was an end to the news cycle. So, the three. ABC, NBC, CBS, big anchors, and that was the end. And then you had Nightline. But now the world has changed so drastically in a couple of decades that leaders, how we show up, how we think about business, how we think about teams, and the new generations have shaken everything up because the new generations are… The millennials now are in their early 40s.

 

Scott Allen  8:49 

Well, yes. You've got President Trump going on Lex Friedman or Theo Vaughn's podcast, and you've got Vice President Harris going on podcasts. And again, totally different landscape. They haven't gotten under my podcast yet, I'm building. (Laughs)

 

Betsy Myers  9:05 

Yes. Exactly. You got it.

 

Scott Allen  9:08 

So, what were some other attributes that really stood out for you as an individual who was successful in leading at that level? What are some other attributes based on observing all kinds of players?

 

Betsy Myers  9:21 

Yes. Well, I think one thing that's really important is clarity of what is the mission of the organization. What are we trying to do? Because there's so much coming at people, and I think it can get lost. And so, one of the things I learned in the Obama campaign was that President Obama and the team, his campaign manager David Pluck, were very clear about what success looked like, and particularly in the early stages of the Obama campaign. And I wrote about this in my book because I was so taken with it. In 07, the goal was to win Iowa, the first caucus state, primary state. So, the idea was, the belief was, well, we’re 30 points behind. People don't think Obama has a chance. Really, people thought Hillary Clinton was probably going to be the nominee. So, the campaign decided most of our energies, huge part of our energies is going to be devoted to Iowa, and then New Hampshire, and South Carolina, and Nevada after that. So, there was this constant kind of drum beat of, “What are you doing to make sure we win Iowa, and where did the campaign put its resources?” People on the ground, offices, the president, the then senator’s time. And so, a lot of times when people say, “Oh, we have this idea to do this or that,” it'd be, “Well, how does that help us win Iowa?” So, it's real clarity of we're putting our time and resources and energy here because if we win Iowa, we're in the game. And we ended up winning Iowa by nine points, and, all of a sudden, we were in the game. So, I always ask people, like, “What's your Iowa? And do your people know what their Iowa is, what their most important things that they should be doing? What does success look like for them?” I've asked leaders on my own informal research, “What's the number one reason why someone has failed on your team?” And a high percentage of over 80% answers have been, “I didn't spend enough time with them. They weren't clear what their job was.”

 

Scott Allen  11:15 

Okay. So, that strategy. And then, amid all of the noise, especially today, when you look at the 24-hour, seven days a week, 365 just cycle of this whole thing, are we staying focused, and are we really clear on what our Iowa is? Because, yeah, that was a game-changer. That was an absolute game-changer for the Obama campaign. And, to your point, then they were in the game in a pretty significant way.

 

Betsy Myers  11:44 

Yeah. We went into New Hampshire, the next state a few days later. We did lose that state by two points, but then we went into South Carolina and killed it. And it was neck and neck with Hillary Clinton for a long time, but, in the end, it really was a, I think, that lesson of where do you commit your resources? I think where people get… We have so much coming at us now, and email, and all this, just social media coming at us, how do you stay clear to what is most important? I think, as leaders, that's the head part. I think leadership is the integration of the head and heart, but the head part is, what is the strategy focus? What are we about? And that puts the purpose into your organization. And then the heart, that's what puts your passion of your people into your purpose, is the caring, the listening, the love, the vulnerability, the authenticity. But first you gotta get the purpose down, and people have to be reminded, what are you here for? Why are you here? And what is the most important things to do? It's really important because people get just lost. And you all know, you can have those days where you're just constantly interrupted, and you're on your email, and end of the day you're like, “What have I actually accomplished?”

 

Scott Allen  12:52 

Yes. So that clarity. But then, also, I think you started here, but I want to circle back here a little bit, that authenticity piece, that heart piece, that true connective tissue, or the true connectivity, I should say, of how someone truly connects. That's a fascinating puzzle. And I'm not saying just connect with a small faction, but this individual… When you think back to President Obama, let's say, versus McCain, you have President Obama -- and I'm not being political here for listeners, it's an interesting case study -- you have an individual who's connecting at such a level that he's filling stadiums, very large venues, arenas, and that connectivity is there. It's ripe. And, of course, we saw Sarah Palin, she connected with a faction of voters in a different way than McCain had. All of a sudden, his crowds are growing larger. But that connectivity is a really, really interesting thing. And what connects is a very interesting thing.

 

Betsy Myers  13:56 

Exactly. We have to remember that leadership is about the human factor, and what makes us human is our emotions and our desire to be part of community, and feel like we are part of something that we're valued, that we can contribute, that we're cared about. Because we have such a lonely factor in our country these days, and we're struggling with huge issues of loneliness, and disconnection. Although we've never been more connected than ever with our phones and social media, but it's not real human connections, and that's what we have to deal with now since COVID and we live in a very virtual world. A lot of companies now are hybrid; half in the office, half not. Many companies are all virtual. So, how do we continue and make the human connections? So, in everything, there's positive and negative. Such positive, you and I are on a virtual conversation right now. We're not in the same room, we don't have to be. That's a great thing. But, on the other hand, we need to make sure, as leaders, that our people feel connected to the mission, the purpose, and that they feel like they're growing. The job of a leader is to grow and help your people be their best selves.

 

Scott Allen  15:07 

Yeah. There's a former guest of mine, she's actually a Harvard alum from the Graduate School of Education. She studied with Robert Keegan, but I had her on, Jennifer Garvey Berger, and she said, “Leaders design for connection,” and I think there's a really, really important word for authenticity. I think that's important that it's authentic connection, but how are we designing for connection so that that heart can be filled, that need can be met? Because I think, to your point, it's this beautiful blend between the head and the heart. Economists have known for, well, a long time, that humans are not only logical actors.

 

Betsy Myers  15:46 

Exactly. And the logic is only one piece of the equation. Logic doesn't inspire, right?

 

Scott Allen  15:53 

Okay. Having been in the seat of a heavily engaged senior leader in a campaign, we're speaking in the beginning of October right now, what are both campaigns thinking about as they go into this final push for the last month? What's on their radar right now? 

 

Betsy Myers  16:14 

Well, the [Inaudible 16:15] has been a very unique campaign season. Joan and me, we never had anything quite like this because up until July 21st, going into a convention that started August 19th, we had our President, Joe Biden, who's beloved in much of the country, make a decision to drop and turn his support to Kamala Harris as Vice President. That's unheard of. And what I will say from a leadership standpoint of someone who's been engaged, what was fascinating and will be studied by historians is this seamless transition that was able to be done legally because of all the money that had been raised on the campaign infrastructure, and staffing that had been for Biden/Harris. So, it just naturally, the President turned over the reins or his support to Kamala on a Sunday, and Monday she was in the campaign headquarters. I watched the whole thing on the kitchen cabinet of the women's vote for the campaign. Amazing. Amazing. And then, just the outpouring of support from the community, and the virtual event that happened with black women, white women, men of color, white dudes. It was like every constituency jumped in to say, “We're in support of it,” and leading up to the convention. So, that's been a really interesting thing for the Trump campaign. They were all about fighting or going up against Joe Biden, and their whole convention was spent on that, and then there was a shift. So, it's a historic… We’ve never seen anything quite like this before, so it's been interesting. And I guess, like anything, the campaigns are both trying to convince voters why they're better leaders to run the country on the issues they care about. And that's always what a campaign is about, is how do we connect with voters on the issues they care about, and are we the best leaders based on what they care about to carry out those things? But what most people don't realize, and I always say this, is that a president is remembered for the legislation they get passed. So, when we think about… If a candidate is saying, “I'm going to go to Washington and do X,” you have to say, “What's your leadership ability to actually work with Congress, across the aisles, to get that work done?” And no one ever talks about that in campaigns, and I think that's really interesting. So, it's like this person coming in, what is your dedication to working with all branches of the government?

 

Scott Allen  18:44 

Yes. Because, ultimately, that's the goal.

 

Betsy Myers  18:49 

That's the goal

 

Scott Allen  18:51 

To advance us forward. Us, all of us, not blue or red, but us. So, I think that's the final question I'll go to. And it's an unfair question, Betsy. So, I'm just fascinated by this puzzle. How do we as a country move back to the mindset of ‘us’? I don't know if it's the tribalism because of the media, tribalism for any number of different reasons, but it's going to be very interesting to see what type of leadership kind of works above some of that and moves us forward? Because it's fascinating to watch, and it's almost as if a different type of leadership is needed to really float above that and help us really, truly move forward as a country. Does that make sense? 

 

Betsy Myers  19:40 

Oh, it does make sense. And I think it's a question that we're all wondering, how did we get here? How did we get here to such a divided country? Because, really, if you sit any two humans down, I don't care how different they are… I have a neighbor down the street who's a very big Trump supporter and has been, and I'm the opposite, and we sit down and we have coffee, and we talk. And he's a family guy. He owns a very successful fence company here. He's a fabulous neighbor. There's a lot more we agree on than we disagree on, but here's what I think we have to move away from, is this othering. We ‘other’ people, “They're different from me, they're bad.” It's like this whole that immigrants are horrible people, and all this language that we use to ‘other’ people. And I think we need leadership to say our leaders, our president, our members of Congress, are leaders for all the people in their area. If you're a member of Congress, you're not just a leader for the Democrats or the Republicans, you're representing your whole district and it includes people of different age, sexual orientation, religious beliefs, political beliefs. And here's the other thing, I'll never forget Bill Clinton saying once, “One of the most important aspects of being President of the United States is the bully pulpit. What you say matters, and people listen to it.” So, if you say that people are eating dogs and cats in Springfield, Ohio, people believe it versus saying… I think that's really important, the bully pulpit and how the leaders embrace all people and kind of have ideas of bringing all people to the table. We're not going to agree on everything, but we agree on more than we disagree on.

 

Scott Allen  21:23 

100%. Most Americans would say “Right to bear arms? Sure. Need a gun out there that can kill 80 people in 30 seconds? No, don't want that on my streets.” I think most people are going to be fairly aligned in that statement. Of course, there's some listeners who might disagree, how do we monetize the middle? How do we champion pragmatism? But, yes. And I don't know if it's a recent phenomenon, the influx of billions and billions of dollars, or the multi billion dollar business of the 24-hour news media cycles, they've figured out the recipe. The Dorito for the mind is to keep us agitated, nervous, anxious, clicking. And I don't know how we move beyond some of that also, but it's big business. It's a multi-billion dollar business to keep us agitated, anxious, frustrated, mad.

 

Betsy Myers  22:16 

Isolated. 

 

Scott Allen  22:19

Yes.

 

Betsy Myers  22:21

That's the thing. It's like, when you get to know people, someone you think you wouldn't like, you make an assumption, and then you sit down and you break bread with them, and you have a conversation, you realize, “Wow. You know what? We have a lot more in common.” And so, it's really having the willingness to step out of your comfort zone and to embrace people that aren't like you, that you don't understand, and come to it, back to what we're talking about with Warren Bennis, the wisdom of Warren Bennis is to come to your life, your neighborhood, your community; curiosity. People that are different from you. And, back to the voters, what is happening, I think, one of the issues is that the voters tend to vote out people who do collaborate on the hill, who do go to the other side. So, if the American people really want to have a different landscape, it's all of us to say, “Wow. We need to keep people in who are willing to work across the aisles.” Where bipartisanship is actually a skill, a way of leading that we embrace, not push away.

 

Scott Allen  23:24 

Yeah. (?Aluger?) none.

 

Betsy Myers  23:27 

Right. Yes. There's so many examples. Ted Kennedy was one of the best people who was always willing to work across the aisles and made friends with people on both sides of the aisle. He has an institute here now in Massachusetts that he started. He passed in 2009, it's hard to believe now, and he started this institute near the end of his life. But it's all about how we work across the aisles and do bipartisan legislation, bipartisan friendships. Orrin Hatch, Utah senator, went to Washington. Part of his campaign was, “I'm going to go to Washington and, basically, destroy Ted Kennedy. And he got there, and they became best friends, and they worked on all kinds of legislation. He spoke at his funeral, and he said, “Yeah, this is what it's supposed to be like, is people that don't think exactly like me, but we can form friendships and do good for the country, and do good for the world.” With all the conflicts we're seeing across the world and in our own country, we have a lot of work to do, and that's why leadership is so important. Leadership that pulls people together and says, “What do you think?” The curiosity to say, “What do you think? And why do you think? Let's have a conversation.” Where you're listening from curiosity, not listening to what you got to say next. Listening for a deep understanding, that's what leadership's really about.

 

Scott Allen  24:48 

I love that. We're going to end there with that beautiful phrasing, and it's a wonderful place to kind of wind down. Well, okay, Betsy, I always end up my conversations by just asking what you've been listening to, streaming, or reading. What's caught your attention recently that listeners might be interested in? It could have something to do with what we've just discussed, it might have nothing to do. It could just be that you've been streaming X, Y, or Z television show that's caught your attention. So, you could take this any way you'd like, but what's caught your attention recently?

 

Betsy Myers  25:19 

Well, what just caught my attention was a new study that's come out by Harvard Business Review, which was why gender bias persists, even organizations try to curb it. Forbes just came out with new data shows women are more negatively stereotyped at work than men, and that women are still held back by bias. I find that really interesting because, when we think there's so much more women in the workforce and as consumers, and like 80% of consumer spending is done by women, when you look at all this, so the growth of women and the influence of women in leadership and as consumers and as leaders and politicians. So, I find that a really interesting study that I'm always looking at that because I'm fascinated with… One of the pieces of my business is women's advancement and empowerment, and I'm very interested in the imposter syndrome, and confidence, and what holds us back as women. And so, to find these studies where bias continues, not just in the workplace, but inside our own hearts of what we believe about ourselves. And so, that's something I think a lot about, and I work a lot with companies on their Women's Leadership Initiative. So, that's a new study that just came out. So, I have just been noodling on that the last couple of days.

 

Scott Allen  26:32 

Yeah. And again, that was beautiful phrasing ‘inside our own hearts.’ What is that? I have two daughters, they're 14. I don't know if you've watched Inside Out 2.’ It's a great film.

 

Betsy Myers  26:45 

I haven't yet. I've heard it's really great. Yes.

 

Scott Allen  26:48 

Incredible. I sat in the theater and cried sitting next to my teenage daughters, who are basically the age of this main character. And, yeah, that phrasing ‘inside their own heart.’ And, of course, there are men who struggle with that as well, but it's a wonderful puzzle to be thinking about and moving the needle on. That's for sure. 

 

Betsy Myers  27:07 

But, you as a girl dad, you're a girl dad of those teenage girls, right? And those ages are so critical. And I've done a lot of research on girl dads. It is amazing, and we'll leave the show with this, but there was research done out of Wake Forest by this wonderful academic, Linda Nelson's her name. And her work was that 80% of girls who have eating disorders, addictions, promiscuity, other issues ties back to a father hunger. So, a relationship back to the dad that is either is not what they had hoped, what would like it to be. And so, men who engage with their daughters, because a man is a girl's first love, these men in the world through the eyes of her dad, or how her dad makes her feel. So, it's amazing. I studied different athletes and leaders who've had these amazing relationships with their fathers, it makes a huge difference. And so, I'm really interested in that because it ties back. I call it the girl dad advantage, that when a girl has a dad that is her biggest champion, her biggest advocate, she goes out into the world with an infrastructure of self-belief that is different. And so, I’m really fascinated with that too. So, it all ties back to kind of this study. So, that's what I really think a lot about and really interested in.

 

Scott Allen  28:24 

Yeah. And I love that phrasing, again, I've said that probably seven times, ‘infrastructure of self-belief.’ Oof. 

 

Betsy Myers  28:31

Yeah. Belief.

 

Scott Allen  28:32

Betsy, I will look forward to meeting you in person in Chicago. And thank you so much for your time today.

 

Betsy Myers  28:38 

Of course. Of course. Really enjoyed it.

 

Scott Allen  28:40

So much fun. Okay. Be well and I'll see you soon.

 

 

[End Of Recording]