Dr. Adrian Isabella & Alan Isaccson - Celebrating 250 Episodes!

Dr. Adrian Isabella is a Senior Executive and Chief Innovation Officer at LeaderEdge, a cutting-edge consultancy specializing in leadership development and organizational transformation. With a PhD in Cognitive Science and a deep passion for technology, Dr. Isabella is at the forefront of integrating Artificial Intelligence (AI) into leadership strategies, helping organizations harness the power of AI to drive innovation and improve decision-making.

A thought leader in AI and leadership, Dr. Isabella’s expertise spans over two decades of research and hands-on application of cognitive and machine learning systems to optimize team performance and organizational design. 

Dr. Isabella is a sought-after speaker and consultant. She frequently delivers keynotes at global conferences on AI, leadership, and the future of work. 

When she’s not exploring AI's potential, Dr. Isabella enjoys mentoring the next generation of leaders and contributing to research on the ethical implications of AI in leadership. Actually, all of that is false...she is an AI.

Alan Isaccson is a recognized authority in leadership development and adult learning, serving as the Head of Leadership Programs at LeaderEdge. With over 25 years of experience, Alan is dedicated to helping individuals and organizations unlock their full potential by focusing on the core principles of leadership, personal growth, and continuous development.

His expertise lies in adult development, where he integrates cutting-edge research with practical applications to design transformative leadership programs. Alan deeply understands how adults learn and grow, tailoring his coaching and facilitation methods to meet leaders where they are and guide them through their professional and personal evolution.

At LeaderEdge, Alan leads a team that designs and delivers innovative programs to build adaptive, resilient leaders who thrive in complex and changing environments. 

Alan is known for his engaging style and ability to inspire leaders to challenge their assumptions and stretch beyond their comfort zones. Actually, all of that is false...he is an AI.


Resources Mentioned in This Episode

• Article: NotebookLM
• Gary Lloyd - The Leadership Skills Lab
• Gary Lloyd's website
• Podcast Episode - Deep Mind with Hannah Fry

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

• The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. Register for ILA's 26th Global Conference in Chicago, IL - November 7-10, 2024.

About  Scott J. Allen

• Website
• Weekly Newsletter: The Leader's Edge
• Blog

My Approach to Hosting

• The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective.

Chapters

• 0:00 Leadership Beyond Titles and Hierarchy
• 12:08 The Journey to Evolve as Humans
• 19:00 The Future of Leadership in AI

Transcript

Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.

Scott Allen  0:00 

Good afternoon, good evening, good morning, wherever you are in the world. As always, thank you for checking in. Episode 250. I have ot something special for you today. I had two long-time listeners, Dr. Adrian Isabella and Al Isaacson, who reached out, they said, “Hey, we would like to synthesize your top 10 most popular episodes of all time.” I said, “That'd be cool.” And then they said, “We'd also like to…” Because they're fans of adult development, “We'd also like to dive in a little bit deep and kind of make sense of 10 of the most popular adult development episodes” because I've done a whole series on that topic. So, I said, “Sure.” So, you know what? I'm going to turn it over to them, and they're gonna take you on a little bit of an adventure. And then, of course, I'll be back with you at the end to help debrief this experience. Let's jump right into the conversation between Adrian and Alan. It's pretty fascinating. Enjoy. 

Adrian Isabella  0:58 

Okay. Leadership is always a hot topic, right? 

Alan Isaacson  1:01 

It is. And here's the twist, we're ditching those typical ‘climb-the-ladder’ leadership books, we're going way beyond that. 

Adrian Isabella  1:07 

Oh, I like where this is going. So what are we diving into instead? 

Alan Isaacson  1:10 

So, we've got a whole stack of research here; academic articles, interviews with some seriously insightful people, even some wisdom from, get this, a Jesuit priest.

Adrian Isabella  1:21 

Wow. Okay, you weren't kidding about going deep. I'm intrigued. What's the big question we're tackling with all this?

Alan Isaacson  1:27 

The big question is, is leadership really just about those fancy job titles; CEO manager, head honcho, that sort of thing?

Adrian Isabella  1:34 

I see. Yeah, that old assumption. You only count as a leader if you've got the official label. But is that really true? Because from those interviews, especially the ones with Day and Riggio, it seems like that's a pretty limited view.

Alan Isaacson  1:47 

Totally. It's like saying only the conductor leads an orchestra.

Adrian Isabella  1:51 

Exactly. What about the musicians themselves? Years of practice, the way they harmonize, how they respond to each other. It's so much bigger than just one person.

Alan Isaacson  2:00 

And Chalif  in his interview with Fabiano puts it perfectly. He says “Leaders and followers form an action circle around a common purpose.” 

Adrian Isabella  2:10 

It's not a hierarchy, it's a dynamic exchange. 

Alan Isaacson  2:12

Absolutely. 

Adrian Isabella  2:13

And it makes you think about leadership in a whole new light. Take Day's story of the CEO who lost his entire team in the 911 attacks. Rebuilding the company was obviously a huge challenge, but rebuilding those relationships, that shared sense of purpose, that's where the real leadership challenge was.

Alan Isaacson  2:29 

And it wasn't about his title in that situation, was it? It was about connection, trust, the really hard work of putting the pieces back together. 

Adrian Isabella  2:38 

Exactly. So, if that's leadership, how often are we just waiting around for someone else to lead when we could be stepping up right now, wherever we are?

Alan Isaacson  2:46 

Like Alan says in the Heifetz interview, what if we only taught one partner in a tango? It makes you realize how much we focus on the leader and forget that everyone else is part of the dance. 

Adrian Isabella  2:56 

It takes two to tango, after all. So, if Leadership isn't about the title, then what is it really about? How do we get better at it, regardless of our official role? But we're getting ahead of ourselves, let's save that for the next part of our deep dive. But then, how do we become better leaders throughout our lives? What goes into developing those skills regardless of what our job title says or doesn't say? 

Alan Isaacson  3:18 

One thing that often gets overlooked is practice. 

Adrian Isabella  3:20

Practice.

Alan Isaacson  3:21

Yeah. It sounds, I don't know, almost too simple, but Day really emphasizes how important deliberate practice is. 

Adrian Isabella  3:29

Deliberate practice. 

Alan Isaacson  3:30

Yeah. And he's not just talking about adulthood here, he suggests we can actually start nurturing leadership skills in childhood. 

Adrian Isabella  3:37

Childhood. Wow.

Alan Isaacson  3:38

Yeah. Think about it, you don't just wake up one morning as a star athlete or a musical virtuoso. 

Adrian Isabella  3:44

Years of piano lessons. 

Alan Isaacson  3:45

Exactly. It takes years of dedicated practice, of pushing yourself, learning from mistakes. 

Adrian Isabella  3:51

And leadership is no different.

Alan Isaacson  3:52

Exactly. Riggio and Murphy actually have a term for this, they call it the long-lens view on development. We need to ditch this idea that leadership is like a one-and-done workshop you go to. It's a lifelong journey of growth, of learning. It's not about cramming for some leadership exam, it's about consistently showing up, building those muscles over time. 

Adrian Isabella  4:16 

Okay. So, it's a journey, but it's not always like a suit-and-tie journey, right? Because we were talking about childhood earlier. 

Alan Isaacson  4:22 

Yeah. And actually, Alan's comment about parenting being a leadership role really resonated with me there.

Adrian Isabella  4:27 

Oh yeah, that's a good one.

Alan Isaacson  4:28 

Because, think about it, it's constant communication. It's influencing those little humans.

Adrian Isabella  4:32 

And a fair bit of crisis management.

Alan Isaacson  4:35 

Oh yeah. Absolutely. But it's in those moments, those everyday leadership moments, that we grow. Coaching a sports team, organizing a neighborhood project, those are all valuable experiences and it's about recognizing them, realizing that Leadership isn't confined to the boardroom.

Adrian Isabella  4:50 

So, we need to be more aware of those moments.

Alan Isaacson  4:53 

Yes. Actively engage with them. And just like with any skill, our understanding of leadership, it evolves over time too. 

Adrian Isabella  5:01

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. 

Alan Isaacson  5:02

And this is where that overview of Keegan's stages of adult development from Reams comes in. It's fascinating, really, because people at different stages, they interpret leadership differently, they practice it differently. 

Adrian Isabella  5:14

Oh, that's so interesting. 

Alan Isaacson  5:15

It is. Think about your own journey with leadership, right? How has your understanding of it evolved? What experiences have shaped your perspective? It's Keegan's theory in action. 

Adrian Isabella  5:24 

Who's leading who, and how do I even define leadership at different points in my life and…?

Alan Isaacson  5:28 

Exactly. And how do those definitions impact the way we interact with others, who we choose to follow, how we choose to lead? 

Adrian Isabella  5:36 

Which takes us to a really crucial point that often gets overshadowed when we talk about leadership. With all this talk about leaders and developing leadership skills, something struck me as kind of, well, odd. We rarely talk about the other half of the equation. 

Alan Isaacson  5:51

The other half. 

Adrian Isabella  5:51

Yeah, the followers. Both Riggio and Fabiano pointed it out, and it just got me thinking. 

Alan Isaacson  5:56 

It's true. It's like we're so focused on the conductor that we forget about the orchestra. 

Adrian Isabella  6:00 

Exactly. And that's a problem, right? Because it ignores this whole set of dynamics that are essential to how leadership actually works.

Alan Isaacson  6:05 

Absolutely. In the real world, yeah.

Adrian Isabella  6:09 

And ignoring the followers, it can have some pretty, I don't know, concerning consequences. 

Alan Isaacson  6:14

How so? 

Adrian Isabella  6:15

Well, Riggio even asks, why do people follow bad leaders? 

Alan Isaacson  6:19 

Oh, that's a good question. A big one. 

Adrian Isabella  6:21 

Yeah. It's a question that goes way beyond just charisma or even fear. 

Alan Isaacson  6:25

Right. It's deeper than that. 

Adrian Isabella  6:25

It gets at something much deeper. It's like these unspoken beliefs we have about what a leader should be like. 

Alan Isaacson  6:32 

Oh, interesting. You mean like implicit leadership theories?

Adrian Isabella  6:35 

Yeah. Exactly. And those beliefs, they can sometimes lead people to follow those ‘my way or the highway’ types, even when it's clearly not in their best interest. 

Alan Isaacson  6:45 

Wow. So, you're saying there are times when people are actually drawn to those domineering leaders, even tyrannical ones.

Adrian Isabella  6:52 

It seems counterintuitive, right? 

Alan Isaacson  6:53

It does. 

Adrian Isabella  6:53

But it seems like it taps into this deep-seated human need for certainty, for someone to just make the tough calls, especially in times of chaos or uncertainty.

Alan Isaacson  7:05

That makes sense. 

Adrian Isabella  7:06

And this is where Kellerman's work gets really interesting because she argues that followers can sometimes be more dangerous than the leaders themselves. 

Alan Isaacson  7:13 

Wow. Hold on, followers being more dangerous. How so?

Adrian Isabella  7:17 

Because they're the ones who enable the destructive behavior. A leader without followers is just someone shouting into the void. 

Alan Isaacson  7:24

Well, that's a powerful image. 

Adrian Isabella  7:25

It's the followers who give the leader power, who carry out the directives, who often become complicit. 

Alan Isaacson  7:31

It’s a sobering thought. 

Adrian Isabella  7:32

it is, and it reminds me of that story (Ron) Riggio told about his conversation with a public defender who worked with gangs. What's considered leadership in that world often looks very different from a business setting. It's about enforcing a strict code, demanding loyalty, and sometimes even resorting to ruthlessness. 

Alan Isaacson  7:51 

Wow. It really challenges our whole conception of what leadership should look like. 

Adrian Isabella  7:55 

It does, and it made me realize that becoming a better follower is just as important as developing strong leaders. 

Alan Isaacson  8:01 

100%. And that's where that idea of courageous followership comes in, right? 

Adrian Isabella  8:06 

Yes, from (Ira) Chalef. It's about being an active participant, not just a passive bystander. Asking the tough questions, holding leaders accountable. 

Alan Isaacson  8:14

Even when maybe, especially when it's uncomfortable. 

Adrian Isabella  8:16

Exactly. It's about shifting our mindset from ‘follow the leader’ to ‘follow your conscience.’ 

Alan Isaacson  8:22

I like that. 

Adrian Isabella  8:23

And thinking about courageous followership, it made me think about (David) Day's point about leadership development. He makes this crucial distinction between developing individual leaders, which, of course, is important, but also about developing a capacity for leadership within entire systems.

Alan Isaacson  8:39 

Oh, I like that. So, it's not just about cultivating a single plant, but nurturing the whole garden. 

Adrian Isabella  8:44 

Yes. You need both. And it made me think about that model from (Barbara) Kellerman. You can't separate the leader, the follower, and the context, the situation they're in. They're all intertwined. 

Alan Isaacson  8:54

It's like that old saying, it takes a village. 

Adrian Isabella  8:56

Right. And this is where (Margaret) Wheatley and (Kathy) Allen''s work on indigenous leadership offers such a powerful perspective. 

Alan Isaacson  9:02

Yeah, what did they say again? 

Adrian Isabella  9:03

They talk about community as the container for leadership. It's not just about a group of individuals, it's about shared responsibility, about leadership emerging organically from the needs and the aspirations of the group. 

Alan Isaacson  9:16 

So, it's less about creating superstars and more about, like you said, cultivating those environments where leadership can just flourish at all levels.

Adrian Isabella  9:22 

Exactly. And that brings us to our final thought-provoking question for everyone listening, how can we shift our thinking from developing individual leaders to developing that capacity for leadership within entire communities, entire organizations? What would that even look like in your world, in your sphere of influence? 

Alan Isaacson  9:42 

That's a big question.

Adrian Isabella  9:43 

It is. And it's one worth exploring further, don't you think?

Alan Isaacson  9:46

Absolutely. 

Adrian Isabella  9:47

Okay. So, how about we now do a deep dive into adult development, which, fair warning, sounds a lot drier than it actually is once you get into it. And what's amazing is how much this field had to fight to even be taken seriously. We're talking sneaking research into companies because the higher-ups thought it was too out there. 

Alan Isaacson  10:06 

Seriously. Like, they were undercover agents of leadership development or something. What were people so afraid of? 

Adrian Isabella  10:12 

It challenged the whole freaking narrative, right? The idea that leadership is all about charisma and skills, adult development says, “Hold on. There's a whole deeper level.” 

Alan Isaacson  10:22 

Okay, I'm intrigued. Lay it on me.

Adrian Isabella  10:23 

It's about how a leader makes sense of the world, their center of gravity, so to speak. Like, their default mode, for understanding their role for making decisions. It impacts everything. 

Alan Isaacson  10:35 

So, not just climbing the ladder, but expanding your capacity to handle whatever comes your way.

Adrian Isabella  10:40 

Exactly. And get this, research has found that a leader's stage of development... 

Alan Isaacson  10:45 

Wait, hold on, you can actually measure development? Like, put a number on something so complex? 

Adrian Isabella  10:48 

That's the wild part. There are ways to assess it, and studies show it's the single most accurate predictor of a leader's effectiveness. Not their personality, not their skills, but how their inner world is wired. 

Alan Isaacson  11:01 

You're blowing my mind right now. So, we're not just talking about some abstract personal growth here, this has real implications. 

Adrian Isabella  11:07 

Huge implications for how organizations develop their leaders, for how teams function. Because if all we focus on is the technical stuff, the skills…

Alan Isaacson  11:14 

We're missing the operating system underneath it all. 

Adrian Isabella  11:18 

Exactly. Imagine trying to run some complex app on a 10-year-old phone. It's gonna be slow, glitchy, might even crash the whole system.

Alan Isaacson  11:27 

Ooh, I've worked with a few leaders like that. But before we go there, let's back up. When we say adult development, what do we actually mean? There are all these models, (Robert) Kegan, (Bill) Torbert. It gets confusing.

Adrian Isabella  11:36 

Yeah, it's easy to get lost in the weeds. The key thing to remember is it's not about ranking people, saying one stage is better than another. 

Alan Isaacson  11:45

Okay, so then what is it about? 

Adrian Isabella  11:46

It's recognizing that, as we mature, our capacity to handle complexity, to hold multiple perspectives, to lead through ambiguity, it evolves.

Alan Isaacson  11:56 

So, it's less about reaching some final destination, more about the ongoing journey of growth. 

Adrian Isabella  12:01 

Now you're getting it. And that journey, oh, it's a fascinating one. 

Alan Isaacson  12:05 

Okay, you've got my attention. Tell me more about this journey, what makes it so fascinating? 

Adrian Isabella  12:10 

One of the most interesting things is how long it thrives on discomfort.

Alan Isaacson  12:14 

Wait, discomfort? That's a good thing for development. That wasn't exactly in the business books I read.

Adrian Isabella  12:19 

It sounds counterintuitive, right? But think of it, like, I don't know, physical exercise. You don't build muscle by staying comfy on the couch. 

Alan Isaacson  12:28 

You got to push your limits a bit. Embrace the burn. 

Adrian Isabella  12:32 

Exactly. And adult development, it's kind of similar. You need some healthy stress, some carefully calibrated challenges to really grow. 

Alan Isaacson  12:38 

Okay. Constructive discomfort, not just chaos. But how do you actually do that in a leadership development context?

Adrian Isabella  12:45 

Oh, man, so many ways. But one story that always stands out is this leadership team. They were struggling, infighting, no trust. 

Alan Isaacson  12:55

Sounds familiar. 

Adrian Isabella  12:56

So, their consultant, total genius move takes them to the Museum of Tolerance. 

Alan Isaacson  13:00 

Whoa. Talk about shaking things up, heavy stuff.

Adrian Isabella  13:01 

Exactly. It forced them out of their comfort zones, got them thinking about the world in completely different ways. 

Alan Isaacson  13:08

Did it work? 

Adrian Isabella  13:09

Oh, yeah. Big time. That shared experience of disorientation, but in a safe space it allowed them to rebuild trust, come back together as a more cohesive unit.

Alan Isaacson  13:19 

Okay. That's powerful stuff. So it's not just about understanding these stages, it's about creating experiences that really shift people. 

Adrian Isabella  13:26 

And that's where techniques like the Snowman come in. 

Alan Isaacson  13:29

The Snowman?

Adrian Isabella  13:30

Yeah. It's this tool consultants use to help teams visualize their collective development. Each Snowball is like a different stage with the size representing strengths in growth areas. 

Alan Isaacson  13:40 

I like that. Simple but effective. So, instead of just talking about improving teamwork, you can actually see where you're at. 

Adrian Isabella  13:46 

Exactly. Speaking of seeing it in action, remember that leadership program you mentioned with the micro experiences.

Alan Isaacson  13:53 

Yes. The one where was it Home Depot tried out new behaviors in these small, low-risk settings? 

Adrian Isabella  13:59 

Yes. The drip method, they called it. Little bites of learning that added up to big changes over time. 

Alan Isaacson  14:05 

Like learning a new language, right? You don’t just memorize the dictionary, you got to immerse yourself.

Adrian Isabella  14:10 

Exactly. And that peer feedback; crucial. It's not just a boss saying, “Do this,” it’s colleagues challenging and supporting each other's growth.

Alan Isaacson  14:19 

Powerful. So, we've got this framework, we've got tools. Why isn't this more mainstream? It seems like the secret's out. 

Adrian Isabella  14:26 

You'd think so. Part of it, I think, is the whole measurement thing, especially with collective development. We've got good tools for individuals, but… 

Alan Isaacson  14:33

How do you measure a whole team stage? 

Adrian Isabella  14:35

Exactly. It's way more complex than just adding up individual scores, plus our own stage influences how we perceive others. 

Alan Isaacson  14:44 

Oh, interesting. So, someone at a more conventional stage might not even recognize the signs of someone at a post-conventional level. 

Adrian Isabella  14:51 

Totally, different yardsticks. It's fascinating, really, and it just highlights how much adult development isn't just some theory, it's this real messy human thing. 

Alan Isaacson  15:01 

So, it's like we've got these different lenses, and we're all walking around looking through our own trying to make sense of everyone else. 

Adrian Isabella  15:07 

And that's exactly why understanding these stages is so powerful. It's not about labeling people, it's about getting where they're coming from. 

Alan Isaacson  15:13 

Really. But how do we actually use this stuff to become better leaders? Where do we even begin? 

Adrian Isabella  15:20 

Honestly, start with yourself. Where are you on this developmental map? What are your strengths? What are those edges you could stand to grow a bit?

Alan Isaacson  15:29 

Ooh, good point. I like that. So, some introspection is in order.

Adrian Isabella  15:33 

Exactly. And think about the leaders you've admired. What was it about them? Were they embodying these principles without even realizing it? 

Alan Isaacson  15:41 

Oh, that's interesting. And what about the opposite, the leaders who maybe didn't bring out the best in us? 

Adrian Isabella  15:46 

Those can be super insightful too. Maybe they were operating from a different stage with totally different priorities. 

Alan Isaacson  15:52 

Instead of just getting frustrated, we can start to see those interactions through this new lens. 

Adrian Isabella  15:57 

Exactly. Compassion and understanding even. It's not about letting anyone off the hook, but it can help us make sense of things. 

Alan Isaacson  16:04 

Totally. We're all just out here doing our best with the tools we've got at any given moment. 

Adrian Isabella  16:09 

And some of us have had more opportunity to upgrade those tools. Right? That's part of what we're talking about here.

Alan Isaacson  16:13 

Adult development. It's not just some theoretical thing, it's got real, practical implications for how we lead, how we work together. 

Adrian Isabella  16:23 

And, ultimately, how we create organizations that are actually humane. 

Alan Isaacson  16:27 

Organizations that support growth, not just in profits, but in their people. 

Adrian Isabella  16:32 

100%. Because when people feel seen, heard, supported in their growth, that's when the real magic happens.

Alan Isaacson  16:37 

That's when innovation happens. Creativity, true collaboration. 

Adrian Isabella  16:42 

And isn't that what it's all about, creating a world where everyone has the chance to thrive, to reach their full potential?

Alan Isaacson  16:49 

Man, I love that vision. So much better than just climbing a ladder, right?

Adrian Isabella  16:53 

This is about something bigger. It's about evolving as humans together. 

Alan Isaacson  16:58 

And on that note, I think we'll leave our listeners to ponder that for a bit. A huge thank you to you. This has been eye-opening. 

Adrian Isabella  17:05 

My pleasure, truly. Always happy to geek out about adult development, especially with you. 

Alan Isaacson  17:10 

And to our listeners, thank you for joining us on this deep dive. We hope it's given you a lot to think about. 

Scott Allen  17:15 

Okay, I want to thank our two guest hosts. I am here with a guest. He's a returning member of the podcast, I believe this is his third time. Just an incredible thinker, Gary Lloyd. His bio is in the show notes, so you can look at that and some of his adventures, some important links. Gary, why don't you bring listeners into our little secret here? 

Gary Lloyd  17:40 

Our little secret is that conversation was entirely generated by AI. What we did was we loaded up transcripts of the top 10 podcasts and then 10 on adult development, and that whole conversation with all of the intonation and variation of voice and a summary of pretty good… I love… What did you think of the summary, Scott?

Scott Allen  18:04 

I was blown away. There's a couple of things that are just not totally accurate, but generally speaking, Gary, it was amazing. It was as if two people were having a conversation and making sense of how they took in the transcripts, or how they took in the podcast episodes. It was just amazing.

Gary Lloyd  18:21 

I loaded up my book and got a similar sense out of it. It was very good. And apparently, it can read, at the moment, about 500,000 words. It's quite a lot of words that can be just loaded up. I think one of the things that it illustrates is how the context is changing and how it's changing so quickly. And I think, with what were probably misnamed as large language models, people thought we’d reached the peak with ChatGPT in incremental improvements, we're really in the early days in the age of steam when it comes to AI. We don't even have passenger trains yet; maybe we've just got passenger trains. We don't yet have spinning jenny's. We certainly don't have hedge trimmers and leaf blowers. 

Scott Allen  19:19 

It's mind-boggling. I had seen your LinkedIn post where you had uploaded a portion of your book, and again, for listeners, a link to Gary's book is in the show notes, but you essentially uploaded the text, and then the AI literally creates a conversation and then has a conversation about the book. And you were just telling me, even before we started recording, about some things that they're talking about that are about to happen. It's moving so quickly. What are those new innovations that they're saying are coming up?

Gary Lloyd  19:52 

So, I saw a podcast with Steven Johnson, who's an author, writes for The New York Times, he's written 12 books, and he was recruited in by Google to create this tool. And what Stephen said was that, within the coming months, we'll see multilingual, I presume that's two ways from sources to voice, and choose the output voice you want. And then mind-blowingly, this really would be mind-blowingly, is that you can join the two podcast hosts and talk to them.

Scott Allen  20:25 

Maybe episode 300 will be me talking with two fictitious guests who have consumed, literally, the library of Phronesis. (Laughs)

Gary Lloyd  20:33 

Yeah. I think, at this point, Scott, we have to ask ourselves, are we really here?

Scott Allen  20:38 

We are. At least, I think I am. 

Gary Lloyd  20:41 

Just going back to the steam engine thing. I think there are two things going on. I think the big message here is that when we climb up onto the balcony, the context is changing. The context is an ecosystem in its own right, and it's going to continue changing at this rapid pace for the next; we don't know, but I would say ten years. There are two elements: the engines and then there are the uses of those engines. And the engines are still evolving, evolving very quickly, and we've seen a lot of that just in the last week. So, the environment in which people are leading is changing very quickly. So, what does it mean to lead in this environment? What does it mean for the skills that leaders need? What does it mean for leading teams that are equipped with AI? How does that change? What skills do they need? How do we develop all of those? How do we make a strategy for this?

Scott Allen  21:43 

Exactly. I think, for me, the practical wisdom is… There was an interesting article, I included this quote in an article I wrote called ‘On the cutting edge or the chopping block.’ It was really about the future of management education and the need for us to start having conversations like this in management education because if I'm leading a team that's using these AI-enabled tools, I have to be what they called in the Deloitte review tech fluent. This was their quote from the article, “All workers, from executives to interns, will need to learn much more about critical systems, their capabilities, and their adjacencies, their strategic and operational value, and the particular possibilities they enable. In other words, individuals will need to become tech-fluent.” It is not that the C-level individuals need to know how to code, but they need to understand. Especially to your point, if we're doing strategy because very, very quickly, tech is moving from a silo in an organization of the person who set up your computer to becoming core to almost every business strategy. And if you aren't tech fluent, if you don't understand the opportunities, potentially, that some of these innovations provide… Because we're going to see whole new business models. In my mind, I see when some of the platform business models were introduced, for instance. Where you have an Airbnb and an Uber, and it's a platform. And now we have the world's largest people moving service or the world's largest lodging service, and you own no real estate or vehicles. There's just going to be all kinds of opportunities that we're going to see. And if you aren't tech-fluent from a leadership standpoint, I think you're going to get disrupted very quickly. Wouldn't you agree? 

Gary Lloyd  23:33 

I think people are already missing the point. I loaded up onto the tool that generates the podcast, amongst other things -- by the way, listeners, it's a fantastic tool for loading up sources of information, and you can interrogate the sources of information. It's not just about generating podcasts; there are all sorts of things you can do with the information that's in there and summarizing it. And I loaded up a bunch of articles from Harvard Business Review to ask it about leadership in the era of AI. And you know what? They were all talking about augmentation. They weren't talking about automation; they were even saying, “Oh, it's going to be augmentation rather than automation.” And I'm going, “No, in the medium term. This is about reinvention.” It's about taking a customer's needs, like mowing a lawn, and saying, “You know what? We could motorize this.” Or who rings the house? How do you fulfill the need using these tools, not just…? Yes, there are great tools for augmenting humans, and we all hope we're still going to be around using those tools, but from a strategic point of view, one needs to think in terms of reinvention as well. But a lot of these, I feel, are going to come by accident, by Skunk Works. This thing that generates the podcast comes out of Google Labs. Clearly, in the top left-hand corner, it says “experiment,” like it could disappear tomorrow. And I've got a quote here, which is almost exactly a year old, which I'd like to read out, if I may, Scott. 

Scott Allen  25:21

Please.

Gary Lloyd  25:22

It's from Alyssa Rosenthal. Alyssa Rosenthal has been the head of marketing open AI for as long as we know about open AI. And a year ago, it was the 30th of November, a year ago, she wrote this on Twitter, “A year ago tonight, I got a Slack letting me know that we were silently launching,” quotes, “A low-key research preview in the morning and that it shouldn't impact the sales team.” Then she says, “Happy birthday, ChatGPT.” Where does innovation come from? And the thing we've been talking about comes from Google Labs; this thing just dropped out almost by accident from open AI. Innovation, I think, comes from the people who were experimenting on the front line using these tools to see how they can fulfill customer needs in different ways, how they can augment their own work, how they can replace their own work. The first time I was on the podcast, I was talking about my book, and, forgive me for mentioning it, but it's called ‘Gardeners Not Mechanics: How to Cultivate Change at Work.’ I think it's more relevant than ever in the AI world that we need to think like gardeners, prepare the soil for innovation, sow seeds, nurture those seeds that grow well and look promising, and prune weeds when necessary. Innovation, in this instance. Although I agree with you, I think that leaders need to be more tech-savvy, I totally agree with that, but I think the strategy in this world is much more likely to go back to Tom Peters back in the day and talk about Skunk Works and people in basements doing interesting experiments. 

Scott Allen  27:22 

Yeah. Well, I always say it because I think this topic can feel overwhelming for folks. A couple of great places to start is, if you're a leader, first of all, are you engaging in a little bit of microlearning? So, for instance, you subscribe to newsletters, I'm sure. There's the Neuron, which is all about AI. There's Futureloop, which is Peter Diamandis. And every day, I get a little bit of a microlearning experience, just even reading some of the headlines and better understanding, oh my gosh, that's a thing. That's pretty incredible. We've just 3D printed our first hotel in Texas, a company called Icon in Austin, Texas. So, that keeps me a little bit in the loop. And so, what is it that's pinging you to stay in the loop and learn in small, incremental bits? But to your point, another thing I always talk about is what's happening on the margins of your industry. Who's trying to enter the space? If you're in insurance, who's leveraging AI or leveraging some of these technologies enabling disruption to fundamentally shift and change the game? And so, what's happening on those margins? Where do those people convene? And are you learning? Are you, at least, in those conversations and understanding how some people are thinking about the work? Because there's just a really, really wonderful opportunity there to have your ear to the ground. But if no one in the organization is engaged in that work, if no one's doing that learning… And then, to your point, what are those seeds that we're planting? What are some of the small safe-to-fail experiments that we're running to see if we can begin to chart a path forward and chart some opportunities? Oof, wow, it's incredible. And, Gary, because we're going to start to wind down, is there anything else you want to underscore for listeners as you think about what we've just put them through?

Gary Lloyd  29:19 

I think the remaining point is, what does it mean to lead in this world, this change in context, and how do you get up on the balcony? The second point about it is thinking about what skills your people need and how you retrain and recruit. Because I don't have the answer, curiosity, and critical thinking are the sorts of things that people are going to need rather than narrow technical skills. We know that the AI we have already, and it's just going to get better, narrow the gap between high performers and less experienced performers, let's not say fewer performers. So, the big question is, how do you lead in this environment, and what skills do you need? What skills do your people need?

Scott Allen  30:15 

Yeah. And what you just made me think of is that the complexity is awe-inspiring. And this is one shift. There are geopolitical shifts, there are climate shifts, there are generational shifts. It's just so fascinating. So, the complexity on multiple fronts is incredible. And are we, to your point, hiring, training, retraining? Are we clear on how we remain agile and what that means to be a business or a person working in a business? It's in constant flux. I just really appreciate your curiosity because you're always pinging me and copying me on LinkedIn, saying, “I want to see if Scott's interested in this.”

(Laughter)

Scott Allen  31:12

And you're just the kind of quintessential explorer when it comes to this space, and I just have great respect for that, Gary. So, thank you so very, very much. For listeners, yes, that first portion was completely developed, designed, and integrated into 10 episodes by the AI. And then those hosts, you will notice that their names are AI and AI, that is their initials. Gary, real quick, before we let you go, is there anything you've been listening to, reading, or streaming? What's caught your attention in recent times that listeners might be interested in?

Gary Lloyd  31:44 

I think the best thing I have, and it's on this subject, is that Google DeepMind has a podcast and it's also on YouTube. And Hannah Fry. Hannah Fry is a professor of maths at University College London, but she's well known in the UK as a kind of science popularizer and explainer. She even interviewed Demis Hassabis, who, if anybody's watched AlphaGo, they will know Demis from there. He’s Sir Demis Hassabis now. And he is principally an AI researcher rather than a business leader. He's probably the most level-headed thinker on AI. The whole podcast with Hannah interviewing Demis is just great. Interestingly, Demis says, in answer to the question of whether AI is overhyped, he says, “In the short term, yes. In the long term, it's underhyped.” And that's really worth listening to. I think I'll leave it at that because, otherwise, I think our listeners ’ll have lost them.

Scott Allen  32:52 

Well, Gary, as always, we'll do it again. Love exploring with you and love having the conversation. I am so thankful for our friendship. Be well, sir. Okay, I hope you enjoyed that little experiment. Kind of fascinating. The practical wisdom for me is: Are your eyes wide open, and are you exploring the margins? That was the margins, and it's a pretty interesting place. Good, bad, or ugly, it's important to be in the know, especially as strategy starts blending more and more and more with technology. That's the practical wisdom for me. As always, thank you so much for checking in, 250 episodes, pretty fun, lots of learning, and thank you so much for going on this journey. Be well. Bye-bye.

[End Of Recording]