Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott J. Allen

Jessica Leving Siegel, Julie Stark & Denny Roberts - Humans on the Move: Welcoming Migrant Families

• Scott J. Allen • Season 1 • Episode 249

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Jessica Leving Siegel is an award-winning writer and communications consultant with experience spanning the newspaper and magazine industry, the nonprofit sector, and the disability community. She spent ten years working on internal comms teams for several organizations. Now, she uses her expertise to help other changemakers hone their messaging and amplify their impact. She is also the author of three children’s books, host of The Special Siblings Podcast, and founded her nonprofit organization, The Center for Siblings of People with Disabilities. In 2024, she mobilized the grassroots group North Shore Neighbors Say Bienvenidos to coordinate a humanitarian response to Chicago’s migrant crisis.  

Julie Stark owns and manages The Stark Solution, a talent strategy, training design, and coaching firm in Chicago, Illinois. She specializes in helping for-profit, non-profit, and social enterprise teams connect strategic goals with vital performance development. Her areas of expertise include consultative strategy, enterprise culture shift, learning roadmaps facilitated needs assessment with multi-level leaders, end-to-end virtual/in-person training design/deployment, and professional coaching for real-time performance growth. 

Dr. Dennis Roberts is an independent consultant, speaker, and author. Roberts’ interest in leadership persisted throughout his forty-one-year career as a student affairs educator. He last served as Assistant Vice President of Education for the Qatar Foundation. During his seven years with QF, he worked with Qatari and expatriate colleagues to create student development and support services for its branch universities at Education City in Doha, Qatar. Roberts has authored six books and over 60 book chapters. One of his most significant books was Deeper Learning in Leadership (Jossey-Bass, 2007).

ILA Cultural Emersion Exeprience

The session is designed for those wanting to learn from changemakers or those working collaboratively on a public issue. Contextualize, explore, and experience a local response to a global issue: an influx of asylum seekers and refugees. In this three-hour session, participants will engage with the community and learn about a humanitarian response from the North Shore of Chicago. What can be learned about the context for leadership and the conditions impacting U.S. immigration practices from the Chicago community leadership effort?


About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

  • The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. Register for ILA's 26th Global Conference in Chicago, IL - November 7-10, 2024.


About  Scott J. Allen


My Approach to Hosting

  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective.

Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.

Resources mentioned in this episode

Resources In This Episode


Scott Allen  0:00  

Okay, everybody, welcome to the Phronesis podcast. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world. I have three guests today, one returning, dun, dun, dun. So, I have Denny Roberts, and he is an independent consultant, speaker, and author. His interest in leadership persisted throughout his 41-year career as a student affairs educator. He last served as assistant vice president of education for the Qatar Foundation. to coordinate a humanitarian response to Chicago's migrant crisis. Prior to working abroad, he was Associate Vice President for Student Affairs at Miami University. He was past president of ACPA, and a member of the International Leadership Association since its founding, essentially, and he's served on the board and done all kinds of incredible things there. He wrote a wonderful book ‘Deep Learning in Leadership,’ and it's one that you should have on the bookshelf. I also have Julie Stark. She is the owner and Managing Director of The Stark Solution, a talent strategy training, design, and coaching firm located in Chicago, Illinois. She specializes in helping for-profit, nonprofit, and social enterprise teams connect strategic goals with vital performance development. Areas of expertise include consultative strategy, enterprise culture shift & learning roadmaps, facilitated needs assessment with multi-level leaders, end-to-end virtual in-person training design & deployment, and professional coaching for real-time performance growth. I also have Jessica Leving Siegel. She is an award-winning writer and Communications Consultant with expertise spanning the newspaper and magazine industry, the nonprofit sector, and the disability community. Before launching her creative agency, Sing Creative Group, she started as a journalist writing for publications such as USA Today, the Boston Globe, the Jerusalem Post, and more. When she realized she wanted to use her storytelling skills to champion the causes she cared most about, she moved into the nonprofit world and spent 10 years working on internal comms teams for several organizations. Now, she uses her expertise to help other change makers hone their messaging and amplify their impact. She is also the author of three children's books, host of the Special Siblings podcast, and the founder of her own nonprofit organization, The Center for Siblings of People with Disabilities. In 2024, she mobilized the grassroots group Bienvenidos to coordinate a humanitarian response to Chicago's migrant crisis. Denny, you are the reason we are here. You have convened us today, so I'm going to turn it over to you, sir, and maybe you can share a little bit more about the work you all have been engaged in. 

 

Denny Roberts  2:53  

Thanks a lot, Scott. Thank you for the introduction and the opportunity to be a part of your podcast. This is actually a little bit of a commercial for us because we are presenting a conference immersion session that precedes the ILA conference in Chicago on November 7th. And if any ILA member is not signed up for it, you don't want to miss it because it is really going to be good. My interest in this comes from, as you said, I've been studying leadership for over 40 years, trying to understand how to empower leadership, how to make sure that all those who want to serve in leadership can do it and have the skills and abilities to really do well. I've become increasingly interested in the application of our theories to practice. So, what happens when the rubber meets the road, and especially when it meets the road on a very difficult and contentious topic? I had a transformative experience last December. There was a message that went out from the village board of Wilmette, and Wilmette is a North suburb of Chicago. The message said Venezuelan refugees arrive at the train station practically three or four times a day, and they're wearing flip-flops, shorts, and T-shirts. They need clothing, they need food, they need anything you could get. My wife and I ran into our closets and started dragging stuff out. We were delighted that when we went over to the train station, there were just mountains of things that had come out of people's closets instantaneously. And so, we got interested because of that kind of just immediate and overflowing response, and so we started following it. And Diane decided to go to a meeting of the Bienvenidos that Jessica had formed and went there. Three hundred people showed up in, I believe, a gymnasium, if I'm correct, and it was pretty electrifying. And she came home and said, “We got to do more on this; we got to work on it.” She started being involved. And then, I got intrigued by the idea of how on earth this happened. How did we get in this pickle to start with? How do we get out of it? How does a grassroots effort respond to a truly deep and difficult humanitarian issue? So, I approached Jessica and asked if she wanted to have a conversation, and that's where the idea of the ILA session came from. I'm just so proud to even know Jessica and Julie because they are true change-makers in our community. It makes me proud to be a part of WOMAD and be a part of a humanitarian response to a deep need. So, Jessica, what on earth caused you to be the one that jumped into the middle of this thing? And I think that you were called out, were you not? You didn't set out to necessarily do this, am I correct?

 

Jessica Siegel  5:47  

Well, Denny, I also got the same email that you received from the village of Wilmette, and I had already been somewhat involved as a volunteer. I had been very low-key in my day job. I'm a consultant for nonprofits, so I'm very connected to different community Facebook groups in nonprofits. So, I was aware of this crisis, but it was in the city. I was really aware of all these people in need in Chicago, which is, on a good day, a 30-minute drive from us. So, I had already been a little bit involved in driving around. I'd see in one group, “Oh, I've got a new mom that needs a car seat.” Might see at another group at Wilmette, parents group, a mom saying, “I've got a car seat, what should I do with it? How do I recycle a car seat?” Like, “Oh, I'll come get it from you, and I'll bring it to you.” And I had already kind of been doing that kind of thing on the side for months. And when I got that email from the village, it was really just a wake-up call of, “Wow, this is happening right here as well.” It also happened to coincide with a conversation I'd had with my husband about whether there are ways I could use my skills a little more strategically. Driving around to different suburbs, picking up car seats, microwaves, toaster ovens, and somebody's extra pound of apples, it's probably not the best use of my experience and skills. I had been in the back of my head thinking if there was something I could do to be a leader in a more efficient way, and I don't think I would have thought of myself as a leader at the time. I'm only using that terminology now that we've been talking about this leadership session for a month. But yeah, when I saw the email, I just wrote back, and I asked a couple… I wasn't really offering to help even I just asked some clarifying questions because I was connected to all these other organizations, and one of them was the Bienvenidos community and Freestore, which Julie, I think, had already been connected with at that time -- so we'll hear more about that when you speak, Julie -- but I had been introduced to a lot of the leaders at this organization in the city serving newcomers and just asked how is this getting organized? Where are the clothes going? How are you distributing them? What's going to happen at the surplus? Can we also collect food? I'm under the impression that these people are coming after a several-day bus journey, and not clear if they're getting food or not, a lot of the word on the street is they're really hungry. So, just asking for more details. And, basically, the next Monday, the city manager or the village manager of Wilmette called me and was like, “Hey, seems like you know a lot about this, so can you take it over?” And, basically, what I discovered was they had been a little bit overwhelmed, I think, by Denny, what you described was this outpouring of support, which was so wonderful to see, but also caused some unforeseen logistical problems. There were probably a thousand coats in the metro station in our tiny little suburb within two days of putting out the call. That is a working metro station with trains coming by, and when I showed up to check out the situation, I saw coats on the benches. There was nowhere to sit if you were a commuter; they were everywhere, and our village didn't have resources allocated to deal with that. A bunch of other moms also volunteered, some of which I knew, and some kind of also independently had been like, “What can we do to clean up this mess and get the train station in order?” And as I met people and made connections, and really, what started off as me just saying, “Oh, you should call Deborah. Let's pull in these people, let's do this. Let's do this,” sort of led to me realizing there are so many individuals and small groups that are interested in this issue, and already working on it, and already doing things, but nobody is coordinating them. And I didn't really set out to become the coordinator of them, but it was just what happened. And one thing led to another, and we ended up forming an organization. So yeah, there's a lot more, but I'm sure Julie should share too.

 

Scott Allen  9:32 

Yeah, Julie, how did you get connected in?

 

Julie Stark  9:35  

So, it’s funny to listen to your story, which I call the origin story, Jessica. Really, I had already been working, as you said, in the community in the city as folks were coming into the downtown station. I have worked for many years with refugees, those who have come here illegally through Catholic Charities and who are looking for sponsorship, and all that includes for years already. And when this situation arose, it was really very different, as Denny, you were saying, this was really on a level of 10,000 or more people coming into these communities, all different communities, and also, from a legal perspective, a very different positioning. I had already been working in the city, actually, with the very faith community that was galvanizing in one small sector of Uptown, which is a neighborhood here in Chicago. As I listen to you talk, Jessica, there's kind of two things going on for me. It was a story unfolding, and that's what happens when you start a pathway to any leadership, any public leadership. There's the story unfolding, and you're watching it from the outside and looking in. I think, even for somebody who has been working with refugees for years, from a sponsorship perspective, each new story that starts is its own story. So, this story was happening, and I think my… First of all, I speak Spanish. And because the vast majority of these folks were Venezuelan, I felt like there was something that we could do just from going in there, and just as Jessica, you were talking, this personal boots-on-the-ground response. We have a fair amount of abundance in certain parts of the city, and there is a great need in certain parts of the city, so it was a natural action to start galvanizing all of those coats, as you said, Jessica, and everything else; from baby wear to coats, to sleepwear, and even bedding. So, all of that was what I would call the personal boots-on-the-ground, who are the foot soldiers. And there are so many foot soldiers that come out of the woodwork with great inclination to help and to serve, but not necessarily knowing how to be the catalyst for it. As Jessica said, where do we put this stuff? So, in the same way, that Jessica came to, “I can figure out how to make it a little more organized,” I was doing the same thing with folks in the city, and I came to work in the Uptown neighborhood with what I would call structural leaders. So, there are the foot soldiers that kind of plug into the unfolding story, and then there are the structural leaders who have the resources, as Jessica was saying, that have the legal services, the faith communities, offer the housing, do the English language learning. These are structures that exist, but to connect folks who are getting off buses, as you said, Jess and Denny, when they got off the bus, and they have flip-flops and shorts, how do you connect them to all those structures? So, a big part of what I have been doing is working with the folks who can connect them in the local communities. And that's the beauty of public leadership, is the way that people can connect into those networks of public support. And so, that's the area that I've been working on so far.

 

Scott Allen  12:59 

I love that phrasing ‘the networks of public support,’ connecting into those networks of public support. It's beautifully said. Denny, where do you want to take the conversation now?

 

Denny Roberts  13:11  

What I also discovered in getting acquainted with Julie and Jessica is that we're talking in positive terms, but this wasn't always easy. There was pushback and negative response, too. And one of the things that I think is a real burden for a person in public leadership is just a fatigue of the work. Lots of times, you didn't necessarily ask to do this, but all of a sudden, you're in the middle of it, and you're getting pushback. You're getting overburdened. Your day is becoming very long. And I'm curious, Julie and Jessica, how did that feel, and how long did it take you to realize that maybe you got in deeper than you thought you were going to?

 

Jessica Siegel  13:55 

I'm happy to take that one. I definitely plunged in headfirst and quickly got in over my head. I think the first few months, I was just running on adrenaline. The first few days, there's an excitement to it. And I think, especially when it was just all kinds of emails and the coats, I hadn't actually met any newcomers face to face yet. It was just like, “Oh, the village manager called me, and I'm going to be in charge of this city initiative, cool.” And running in, and we got this imminent issue of coats everywhere, and we had to call people to clean. It was just running on momentum. And then, a few days after that, I happened to be at the Metro Station. We were sorting all the donations and trying to get everything organized and work on a distribution system, and I happened to be there when a bus came. And these buses were unannounced, on no schedule; I didn't know that it would be there. And just, all of a sudden, the bus pulled up, and about 50 people were getting off the bus and coming in, and they had gotten there about 10 minutes before the train that they were being told to take. And a lot of people, and I certainly before this didn't understand what it's really like on the ground when these buses are showing up, they come on the bus from Texas. They drive straight through. There are two drivers that take turns, and they've got what's called a handler on the bus with them whose job, as sent from Texas, is to basically keep the group in line. And they time the busses to arrive at the station about 10 minutes before the metro train that's then going to take them from Wilmette into Chicago because the real Welcome Center where they need to get paperwork, get connected to the city, plug into that network Julie was talking about, that's all in Chicago, that doesn't exist in Wilmette. A little bit more now, but certainly not then. So, these people have been told, “Get off the bus, go straight to the platform, and get on the next train in 10 minutes.” And, all of a sudden there were like six of us moms there, and most of us did not speak Spanish, I think there was one person who had high school Spanish. And we've all learned the word ‘abrigos’ as coats. And, all of a sudden, “Abrigos.” Yelling and shouting, and we just start dumping the boxes of donations on the ground so that people… It was just a free-for-all kind of frenzy of people grabbing these coats because, as Denny said, it's 17 degrees outside, and they're in shorts and flip-flops. They're freezing cold. And I just was so stressed. There were a ton of kids, and I think some people pictured that there were young men coming. And certainly, there are, but it's primarily young men and their families, young men with their wives, with their young children. And that busload was all families. There were a lot of little kids, and there was this one girl who was maybe five years old, and her parents had run over to go try and find coats in their sizes, and she was just standing there crying, and she's just kind of wailing. Outside, it's freezing cold, and she's wearing a tank top, shorts, and Crocs. And I walked over and threw a coat over her that was way too big. Just the first one I saw, and draped it over. I'm trying to comfort her, but I don't speak her language, and I just had this feeling of needing to be here; this is unlike anything I've ever experienced. And I've been involved with nonprofits and service my whole life, but never emergency response, like what this feels like. And I think that image of that girl and of all those people getting off the bus, really, to your question, Denny, there was no question for weeks after that. 24/7, my focus was like, “We have to get resources for these people. We've got to help them. We've got to make sure they get situated; we’ve got to make sure that we help in the biggest way we can.” And it was just also this kind of wild experience of everything I asked, people were saying yes. I was reaching out to church groups, synagogue groups, and all the nonprofits that I am connected with in the area that could have been helpful, and all of them were like, “Yes, absolutely, we’ll help.” And it was both, as they say, a blessing and a curse in that it’s so wonderful to have the generosity and resources. And suddenly, in addition to my day job and parenting my own toddler, I've got 45 people to call back for an urgent thing. There's a lot I could go over, but one thing led to another. We ended up having a really large fundraising gala in April because through, like we said, this incredible woman who runs Nuevos Vecinos, the organization that Julie was mentioning, they had this very innovative housing program that they were working on, and maybe we can talk about it more later if it's relevant. But they needed to raise tens of thousands of dollars to make it happen, and I was like, “Hey, I've run nonprofit galas before, let's do it.” And kind of had this crazy idea, like, “Yeah, we can raise $40,000 by April,” and we did. And that momentum really carried me through, and then the week after the gala, I was just like, “I can't get out of bed” because I think I was just running on fumes. And by the first week of May, I just stopped answering emails for a couple of days. “Oh, I don't know what has happened to me for four months of my life, but I do need to check back in with my own work and maybe spend some time with my toddler and my husband.” So, it was then kind of this process of figuring out, like, “All right, what can we do to be sustainable?” And figuring out how to delegate, create systems, and try to create a way for this work to be sustained without me having a full-time unpaid job.

 

Denny Roberts  19:07 

Wow.

 

Julie Stark  19:08 

I think that, because of the professional work that I do in training and development, I'm always thinking about, “What are we learning?” As I'm listening to Jessica's talk, I see a constant learning curve on the giving curve. And what you're describing there is this fatigue and this sense of “Who can do what?” As the story unfolded, and at least for me, I started to see very clearly that there were -- the word that's coming to mind, it's a weird word -- but titrations of what people can be. So, some people are boots on the ground. They will get in their car; they will carry things to and from and to and from. Other people are to make calls, and other people are, “All I'm going to do is bring the goods. I can bring the goods, but I'm not going to go down there.” And then there are other people who are like, “Give me a project from day one to day five. I will be all in, and then I'm out.” So, when you start to see those different titrations of ‘give,’ then you can start offloading a little bit of all of that you would normally just be taking on. And I think, too, something that you said, Jessica, that's really cool is that there is no shortage of people's desire to give. That was really incredible. That's why when Deni was talking about, “Why don't we talk about public leadership?” I was thinking to myself, “Who's a leader?” A leader is anyone who stands in and says, “I'll do that part,” and in the public space, for sure, because it's very egalitarian, not hierarchical, in public leadership. If there's a need and people are willing to stand in, it just requires somebody to say, “Okay, you do that part, you do the food part, you're doing cooking,” and even that can be shared. So, what I learned over time, and by the way, I am not great at it yet, but I am getting better at it, is to really figure out how people can give in the way and in the spirit that they want to give. That's how I was dealing with fatigue. One quick story is when there was a medical need, that's a good example of… There are, I think, 12 to 17 shelters in Chicago to house all these 35,000 people. There was a need for medicine. They don't belong to any hospital; there are no doctors there. And a group of Rush medical students created a medical mobile unit. So, to me, that was the perfect example of… They’re busy students, they’re med students, all they needed to do was gather up their cap-in-hand medication, simple stuff, like stuff for fevers, and take them to these shelters. And that's exactly what they did. And it was just for the winter; they went in, they did it, and they went out. And so, that was what they could contribute. So, that's what I mean by people who have the right spirit and the capacity to do it in the way they did.

 

Scott Allen  22:04  

I almost have this metaphor of a conductor in my… And, Denny, you are passionate of the orchestra, that’s a passion of yours. But the individual who can connect to resources, the individual who can connect individuals with a certain skill set, the individual who can discern, What can you give right now? And then I'm going to place you.” You're almost a hub that so much is going through, and part of the work feels like it's conducting.

 

Jessica Siegel  22:32  

Yeah, I think it actually had a lot of parallels to me. And I think, maybe briefly, Julie and I spoke about this because I know it's very much in your professional realm. I run my own business. I'm about five years into it, and it's very similar to where I am as a manager in learning how to delegate, and learning how to ask for help, and learning how to put people in the right roles, how to step out of the roles I shouldn't be in. And luckily, I'm very fortunate to have had support and continue to have support in figuring out how to do that. And I think partly because I have already been in the midst of learning how to delegate in my business, I think that's probably the only reason that any of the work I started is still going. Because there was definitely… After the gala, I was like, “I'm done. I gotta throw in the towel. What am I doing to myself here?” And Julie and I have spoken about we've seen, at this point, the wave of people that do. They rise up, they make a tremendous contribution, and then they burn out, they're gone. The only reason that didn't happen for me is because, after I caught up a little bit on sleep, I was able to be reminded of some of my learnings as, “Okay. I'm going to turn to the other people that have been involved. I'm going to ask for help. I'm going to ask who is willing to take some other stuff on. Going to let people know that I've gotta set some boundaries.” And people did step up. And it was very hard; nothing is easy. It's very difficult to see what had been, for four months, this baby I had created and did not get carried forward the way I would have done it. But I had to remind myself it's still happening, and I don't have to be the one doing it.

 

Scott Allen  24:10  

Denny, this has been a wonderful primer into the dialog that you all will be sharing at the ILA conference in this pre-conference session. It sounds just absolutely fascinating. I am making a ton of connections to the leadership literature in my head. Whether that's servant leadership, we could just go down the list. Denny, anything you want to say as we begin to wind down our time about the time that we'll be together in November? What you're hoping for that pre-conference session? 

 

Denny Roberts  24:41 

Knowing how effective Phronesis is in reaching people, I expect that people are running to their computers right now to sign up for this pre-conference immersion session. The really cool thing that's happening is that Julie and Jessica are inviting other community members who are not ILA members but are a part of this larger network that they've been working with. So, literally, ILA participants have the opportunity to get on the streets. They can understand Chicago, and I really don't even understand why somebody would come to Chicago without having an immersion experience like this. It's just terrific. And so, I hope that they will sign up. And I hope that the lesson that is learned here in Chicago is generalized to places around the world. Other countries are struggling with this, other areas within the United States are struggling with this, and migration of people across borders is not going away. It's been happening for millennia, it's been happening all over the world, it's just that America has not been that affected by it. And, all of a sudden, it's a hot topic, and now people are talking. We need to figure out ways to get through it positively, which I think is a credit to Jessica and Julie they jumped in and made it something that was manageable. 

 

Scott Allen  26:04 

You all are doing God's work, whatever that means to you. Not putting any version on you. It could mean that you're earning karma points; the universe is smiling. However, we want to say that you're earning points, doing good in the world, and making the world a better place. And I will put all kinds of links in the show notes and ensure that everyone has access to get involved and to sign up for this session so that, again, Denny, as you said beautifully, here in Chicago, this is real, and these are individuals in the community working to make a difference. And I think there's just a lot of leadership lessons embedded in there. And so, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I always wind down the episode, and maybe just in a couple of breaths, what's something that's caught your attention recently? Maybe something you're listening to, something you're reading, something you're streaming, but is there something that the listeners might be interested in? Denny, maybe we'll start with you.

 

Denny Roberts  26:58  

Oh, wow. I can't remember the title of the book that I'm reading right now. It was given to my daughter by a friend of hers, and it's a wonderful explanation of how we can get over the partisanship in our country and be able to start to talk with one another across our different perspectives. And we've got to learn this.

 

Scott Allen  27:20  

Send me the link, I'll put it in the show notes. Thank you. That's awesome. Julie. 

 

Julie Stark  27:24 

Probably one of the best books I read last year was ‘How to Know a Person’ by David Brooks. And I think it's about really listening and really being present, and what that feels like and sounds like. And I think it really serves every aspect of my life. I think about that book all the time. So, that would be the latest book that kind of has infused my thinking about the world where we're present with people.

 

Scott Allen  27:49  

Oh, I love it. I will put that link in the show notes. I had not heard of that one. Okay. Jessica, what do you got?

 

Jessica Siegel  27:57 

I think probably the most impactful book, certainly in regard to what we've talked about here today, is I read the book ‘Four Thousand Weeks’ by Oliver Burkeman. And I can't remember at what point I read it, if it was before, in the midst, or after all of this craziness that I got into, but really, about 4,000 weeks is the average number of weeks. If you live to be whatever the average lifespan is; 80 years old, or whatever, that's how many weeks you're alive. And it's about time management. I think the book is subheaded like ‘Time Management for Mortals’ or something like that. And it's more of an existential time management book about kind of accepting that you can't do everything, you will never get to everything on your to-do list, you can't see through every idea that you have, but really intentionally choosing where you are going to focus your time and how you are going to spend your 4,000 weeks. And that's something I think about almost every day. When I have a new idea for something I want to pursue, I have to tell myself, “Prioritize. Stay focused.”

 

Scott Allen  28:55  

‘Four Thousand Weeks.’ Okay, wonderful. I will put that in the show notes. To the three of you, thank you so much for all you're doing. Excited to see you in November. And, for listeners, you know what to do. All kinds of links in the show notes. As always, thanks for checking in. Take care, you all. Be well.

 

Scott Allen  29:10  

As I mentioned in that episode, there are so many leadership lessons and so many connections that can be made. But just love propping up a story of some individuals in a community trying to make a difference and benefit other humans. And I think it's really, really important. And, as Denny said, he's really trying to explore how we got here, how we move forward. Obviously, issues like immigration in the United States are complex adaptive challenges that we have struggled with for decades. And, as Denny said, it's happening all over the world. And how do we do that work well? So, I hope you gleaned a lot from that story. Three individuals are making a difference and trying to improve their communities. To each of you, thank you so much. The practical wisdom for me is to make a difference. Take care, everyone. Be well. Bye-bye. 

 

 

[End Of Recording]