Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott J. Allen

Dr. Dave Ulrich - Ideas Are My Best Friends

• Scott J. Allen • Season 1 • Episode 238

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Dr. Dave Ulrich is the Rensis Likert Professor at the Ross School of Business, University of Michigan, and a partner at the RBL Group, a consulting firm focused on helping organizations and leaders deliver value.  He has published over 200 articles and book chapters and over 30 books. He edited Human Resource Management 1990-1999, served on editorial board of 4 other journals and on the Board of Directors for Herman Miller (16 years), has spoken to large audiences in 90 countries; performed workshops for over half of the Fortune 200; coached successful business leaders, and is a Distinguished Fellow in the National Academy of Human Resources. He is known for continually learning, turning complex ideas into simple solutions, and creating real value for those he works with as he defines human capability as the next agenda for people and organizations. 

With colleagues, he has articulated the basics of effective leadership (Leadership Code and Results Based Leadership), connected leadership with customers (Leadership Brand), shown how leadership delivers market value (Why the Bottom Line Isn’t), shapes investor expectations with an ability to measure leadership (Leadership Capital Index), and synthesized ways to ensure that leadership aspirations turn into actions (Leadership Sustainability). 

He and his colleagues have shaped the HR profession and he has been called the “father of modern HR” and “HR thought leader of the decade” by focusing on HR outcomes, governance, competencies, and practices (HR Champions; HR Value Added; HR Transformation; HR Competencies; HR Outside In).  He spearheaded a “gift” book on the future of HR (The Rise of HR) distributed to over 1,500,000 HR professionals), in which 70 thought leaders freely shared their insights. 


A Quote From This Episode

  • "I love ideas. I love ideas with impact and enjoy exploring ideas with fresh people. That's my passion."


Resources Mentioned in This Episode


About The International Leadership Association (ILA)


About  Scott J. Allen


My Approach to Hosting

  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can r

Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.

Scott Allen  0:00 

Okay, everybody, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world. Very special guest today. Very excited about this conversation. I have Dave Ulrich, who is the Rensis Likert Professor at the Ross School of Business, University of Michigan, and a partner at the RBL Group, a consulting firm focused on helping organizations and leaders deliver value. He has published over 200 articles and book chapters and over 30 books. He edited Human Resource Management from 1990 to 1999, served on the editorial board of four other journals, and on the board of directors for Herman Miller for 16 years. He's spoken to large audiences in 90 countries, performed workshops for over half of the Fortune 200, coached successful business leaders, and is a distinguished fellow in the National Academy of Human Resources. He is known for continually learning, turning complex ideas into simple solutions, and creating real value for those he works with as he defines human capability as the next agenda for people and organizations. He posts weekly and comments daily on LinkedIn. Some have called him the father of modern HR. Dave, it is so wonderful to have you here. I know that you are in Utah right now. And I think it was October 2020. Actually, the conversation happened in August 2020, and I told my wife that it was during the pandemic. I said, “I need to get West.” And she was like, “Yes, we need to get West.” So, we jumped in the car. We drove from Cleveland, Ohio, to North Platte, Nebraska, in a day. Wiped everything down in a hotel room, hunkered down, got back up, and drove to St George, Utah. And it was the most magical month, other than that little thing called the pandemic. But we sheltered in place there and ventured to Bryce Canyon, Zion. You are in just an incredible, incredible part of the country. And it was hilarious, Dave, because our kids… We were there, headed home around Halloween, and our kids kind of commiserated. They were thinking, “Oh, this is not going to be a great Halloween, and we said, “It's going to be the best Halloween you've ever had.” And Dave, we ended up running around Arches National Park, the five of us as dinosaurs, those blow-up dinosaur costumes of T-Rexes, under balanced rock. And we ran around, and it was a magical, magical time in our family. And that all took place in Utah. And so, when I think of Utah - oof - you are in a beautiful spot in the world. But I always ask guests this question: What else is not on your bio that people should know about you before we jump in, sir?

 

Dave Ulrich  2:57 

Well, first of all, welcome to Utah. We're glad to have taken some of your money. And southern Utah, St George, Moab, Arches, and Bryce, it's like being on another planet. It's just absolutely gorgeous: the red mountains. What’s not on my bio? I like to learn; I think that's implicit in the bio. I am passionate about ideas. I've called my ideas my best friends. My wife said, “I thought I was,” and I said, “Well, sometimes you're a good idea.” 

 

Scott Allen  3:30

(Laughs)

 

Dave Ulrich  3:30

But I love ideas. I love ideas with impact and enjoy exploring ideas with fresh people. That's my passion.

 

Scott Allen  3:37 

Oh, that's wonderful. That's absolutely wonderful. Well, speaking of ideas, you are just prolific on LinkedIn. And so, I'd like to start there for just a moment because A) I want listeners to know about your work on LinkedIn, but talk a little bit about your strategy of how you use LinkedIn in some pretty interesting and creative ways. 

 

Dave Ulrich  4:00 

For 20 years, I flew 200 to 300 flights a year. I said my address in our annual Christmas letter, “My address is 2A.” And sometimes I'd make a mark sitting on the airplane on the window. And I'd sit in a seat, there'd be three marks, I had sat in that seat three times. Well, guess what? The pandemic happened. And the best learning when you do a workshop is not the workshop, that's a talk, it's the before, the after, the engagement. And you've done many of these, Scott, in all your executive programs. What do you feel at lunch? What are the questions you get? Well, guess what? You don't get those when you don't travel. A lot of the webcasts are just one way; they are like TED talks online. So, I'm going to try this thing called LinkedIn, I never tried it before. I have found it delightful. I post every Tuesday. I'm really excited about the post coming up, which is not easy. I've got to create a 1200-word post every week, which is not always easy. And then, I've decided the cool thing about LinkedIn is not just to post, and there are a lot of folks who post, but I love the engagement. I love the engagement. I don't care about the likes as much, but I get a lot of comments. And so, I post an idea, and people say, “That's really stupid.” And what I discovered is that 10 to 15% of the comments are just stupid, and you ignore them. Those are trolls. The cool thing about LinkedIn comments is that they're from everywhere. I get comments from Sri Lanka, India, and Nepal. And I don't care where the ideas come from; I almost never look up who's making the comment. I read the idea and go, “Wow, that's really cool. I hadn't thought about that.” And so, now I've got some LinkedIn idea friends. I'll never meet them. I don't know what they look like; they're tall, short, or whatever because I don't see them. But they're my idea friends, and I have found it delightful. So, I post every Tuesday and spend an hour or two a day, usually making comments on people who make comments. Now, if you make a stupid comment, I'll ignore you. But if you make a comment, I'll probably respond. And I've had some great discussions about really fun topics. The one this week is on AI for HR. And we're going to give a checklist, what are the 10 things you should pay attention to? I've also found, and then I'll shut up on this one, that it's really fun to put your insights into 1,200 words because sometimes people write books, and you read and you go, “You could have written that in less.” My rule of thumb is 1,200 words, and that's a pretty good discipline to say, if you can't say it in 1,200 words, then you're not going to be able to say it. So, my LinkedIn thing is fine, I've got quite a few followers. And it's not commercial; I'm not making any money on it. But that's not my agenda, my agenda is to shape ideas that will have impact. 

 

Scott Allen  7:03 

Well, exactly. But again, that curiosity and the learning, that person from Nepal or that person from Sri Lanka, you get some feedback, and you get their perspective and their worldview. And how cool is that? It's awesome.

 

Dave Ulrich  7:17  

It is so cool because I'll talk about a management practice, and somebody from Sri Lanka will say, “That doesn't work in our culture.” And so, “Tell me what does?” So, suddenly, all this academic abstraction becomes very pragmatic. So, what would work in India, Brazil, China, or Nepal? And I just find that that's a delightful way to share ideas. I also find that the world is pretty small. The set of ideas: I know you've done a lot of podcasts on leadership and leadership development, but the principles are pretty global. You say, “Well, we're really different.” Well, guess what? The underlying principles are pretty similar, and the practices may vary. I've enjoyed LinkedIn. I keep thinking, “How do I now get out of it?” It's a flywheel that I don't know how to stop. But so far, I've enjoyed it, and I enjoy posting every Tuesday. I hope people will look at them.

 

Scott Allen  8:19  

Oh, for sure. Okay, so let's go there. You used a phrase a couple of moments ago, maybe not a phrase, but a couple of words, ‘academic abstraction.’ And one thing I have loved about this project of the podcast is, in a similar vein, I've built relationships with individuals, it's led to writing projects, it's led to some work, it's led to relationships where I've never met the individual, but we're thinking partners online. It's just been so much fun, and it's almost, in a way, systematized my learning as well. We've never met before, but it's like we're having a cup of coffee right now, and we're building a relationship. And this puzzle of how do we do the work of… A couple of moments ago, you shared your mission. How I verbalize mine is, how do we better prepare people to serve in these really challenging roles? How do we better prepare them? And this whole notion of leader development, and that work, and truly making it practical. Not an abstraction, not a theoretical exercise, but truly better-prepared people to serve? You're in executive education; you see what's swirling around these individuals. The work they're doing is incredibly complex. So, you've been at this for a long time. You've been engaged with people at all levels of organizational life. What do you think about the space of leader development? And I shared this with you before we started. We're going to put “know” in quotations, but what do we “know” when it comes to developing leaders and better preparing individuals to be successful when serving?

 

Dave Ulrich  9:59  

Well, the first, and there are a lot of things we know, is that academics play a very good role in terms of rigor and theory. The problem with that… I'll tell a quick story that shaped my life. I was doing consulting, and I was working for a company, and it was a Friday morning in Chicago. We were doing some sessions, and I don't even remember the topic: organization and leadership. At nine o'clock, we took a break, and the phone rang. And Irwin Jacobs, so it’s decades ago, Irwin Jacobs had just gone from 4.5% to 15%. He was doing greenmail. So, he was a takeover artist and went their stock 4.5 to 15. And he said, “I'm paying a 50 for the stock, I'd like you to buy me out at 75.” It was a greenmail. Well, my topic got thrown off the table, and they said, “We now have to defend ourselves, what do you have to say?” And I said, “Not much.” So, I went home and I said, “Can I come visit with you again on Monday?” I spent the weekend, academic journal after academic journal. What do you do to fight that? What do you do to fight back? There wasn't anything. There wasn't anything. So, I went back Monday and said, “Let's co-create a solution.” I just got excited about that. There wasn't an academic framework that had been studied over decades that goes through all the rigor of publication. I edited a journal, Human Resource Management, for 10 years, so I understand the rigor of publication. But I thought it was so cool that they let me back on Monday with a small team, and we co-created a strategy around business and agenda. And then I thought that was kind of cool. And I bet you've done the same thing with your clients, with Lexus, Toyota, whoever it is you're working with. I got a problem today, when I teach in executive programs, the most exciting teaching… Today we're talking about talent, we've got 30 people in the class at Michigan, “Write down the biggest talent challenge your company's facing today.” And they write them down, I say, “Let's share them. That's our case study. We're not going to do a Harvard case; we're not going to do a case in which I know what's on the board, I've got scripted answers, and I've done case notes. Your 30 challenges fall into six buckets, let's spend an hour on each bucket.” 

 

Scott Allen  12:19

Oh, I love it. 

 

Dave Ulrich  12:20

Sometimes the buckets are, “How do we get retention of our software engineers in China?” And I go, “I have no clue, what do you think?” And, at the end of an hour, we've created an idea. And, to me, that's some of the most exciting learning because the challenges are real. It takes a good academic background because there is research on all of this stuff around fundamental principles. So, in leadership, principle one, leadership matters, duh. We can all look at our lives. Well, I'd love to ask you, Scott, who was a leader who influenced you? I won't say anymore. Who was a leader who influenced you?

 

Scott Allen  13:04 

The first name that came to mind when you said that was a gentleman named Bob Cottrell. He was my first supervisor out of undergrad, and he led a Thursday morning book club - 7:00 A.M. And we read ‘The Leadership Challenge.’ That was the first time I ever really understood that leadership was something that we could study and learn more about. And he fundamentally changed the trajectory of my life. Seasoned executive, but open to these young Turks sharing their thoughts. We talked about challenging the process, and we talked about, “Well, we're not modeling the way.” He just engaged and put up with us and was curious about the puzzle. So, that's the name that comes to mind for me. Bob Cottrell was just an incredible man.

 

Dave Ulrich  13:52 

Everyone who's listening to this call has someone. And hopefully, you have others who you've now influenced. They'd say, “Who comes to mind?” “Scott Allen. Wow. Lights go off, leadership matters.” And sometimes it's formal, and Bob Cottrell could have been a supervisor, could have been a mentor, could have been somebody in a company. Sometimes it's informal. It's a mother, it's a father, it's a coach. And so, the premise is that we all get intuitively that a leader makes a difference. Number two, they exist in all settings, in families. I know somebody with three children, 14 and 16. Right now, they don't respect parents, but they will. That was Mark Twain's great quote. “At age 16, my father was the dumbest person alive. At age 21, I couldn't believe how much he learned in five years.” But we learn leadership in all settings. And in a company, leadership matters, and it's not just at the top of the company. It's my direct supervisor, my peer, and the person mentoring me. Then, we began to discover some fundamental principles of leadership. Practices vary, styles vary, personalities vary, but there are some fundamental principles. The work leadership challenge we… Well, I'll go deeper on those principles because, if you're listening to this call as a director of talent or as chief learning officer, what are those principles of leadership that your organization needs to adapt, or, if I'm a leader, what are the principles I need to understand? There are three things: leadership makes a difference. We get that. We've got empirical data. I love statistics. My Ph.D. is in statistics mostly. We found that 70 to 80% of a company's market value is called intangible value today. It's something that creates value that you can't touch or feel, something that doesn't fall on your foot. So, that's your financial predictability. Did you make your numbers? It's your strategy. It's your industry. 25 to 30% of that intangible value is around leadership, broadly defined. That's a lot. And so, we begin to say leadership matters intuitively. You had Bob that helped you, I had a mentor named Bonner who helped me. Does the same thing. He said, “My mentor was so cool.” He said, “You're in this class, go show me what you've learned. There's no paper required.” He triggered my imagination. I wrote a 10 to 15 page paper every week. Now, I cheated. I was majoring in English, so I turned in an English paper, Sources of Power in Paradise Lost, William [Inaudible 16:33], the ideal man. I turned it in to my English professor, and they said, “That's weird.” And I turned it to him, and he'd go, “Keep doing it.” And so, I cheated. I don't think that's cheating; I think that's multitasking today. We got the informal leaders, and then they make a difference in companies. Then, look at the iconic leaders who shape the world we live in, politically and economically. Leaders exist at all levels and in all places. And three, there are some basic principles of what it takes to be an effective leader.

 

Scott Allen  17:03 

Well. Okay, so let's talk about developing leaders in organizational life. Who's doing it well, and what are some common themes that you see when it comes to preparing these individuals to serve in these roles? Because, again, it's not easy work. More and more is being asked of these individuals. Complexity seems to be increasing. I always get a little bit, I don't know, hesitant to come off as alarmist, like, “This is now the most complex time in history.” However, it's pretty darn complex. (Laughs)

 

Dave Ulrich  17:42 

Well, we have VUCA. VUCA on steroids may be the right word.

 

Scott Allen  17:48 

We need super VUCA or something. We need a new term. 

 

Dave Ulrich  17:53 

And there are two ways to approach it. One is from the company level; the other is from the individual level. Let me do individual first. One of the things we're finding, and again, you've been around this world like I have. I've been around a long time. It used to be kids are kids: young men, young women, brilliant scholars. You're in an MBA program at Michigan, John Carroll, SMU, or somewhere else. “I'm here because I want to be a leader.” I don't hear that as much today. I don't hear that as much today. I think a lot of people are saying, “Moving into management comes with a price. I want to have a job where I can make an impact.” In fact, I think, in some ways, we in the world of leadership need to be more encouraging to the next generation that management, leadership, or whatever you want to call it, has an opportunity to make a big difference. The scale, the scope. And so I want to encourage those who might be listening as students or early in their careers don't walk away from management. Don't walk away from management. There are some benefits, but not everybody wants to do them. I don't know Scott, I don't know you, but if somebody said, “Scott, we'd love you to be a great executive ed teacher that shapes a set of ideas around leadership and organization, or a dean.” Which one would you probably jump at?

 

Scott Allen  19:10 

I'm going to go with the first.

 

Dave Ulrich  19:13 

Yeah, me too. I've been invited a few times to look at a dean job, and I go, “I don't want that burden of management.” So, there is something to be said about being a functional expert in shaping a field. I get that. However, there is also something to be said about the leader or manager who creates an enterprise that outlasts himself. The ultimate test of leadership is whether this has survived beyond you. So, my first thought to the individuals listening is don't walk away from management. It's hard, it's tough, the pressure is high, but there are benefits. And it's not about economics. You can make a lot of money doing individual stuff today, but there are benefits. So, in an organization, how do you begin to make sure that we build the leadership for the next generation? We've done research on that. We've got a lot of books on that. You start with my assumption that leadership makes a difference. When you invest in leaders, they perpetuate the next generation, and they build future benefits. And then, you've got to have a sense of what it means to be an effective leader. That's the principles of leadership. We did a study… And I love research, I love big data, and a lot of our data sets have thousands and thousands of data sets. Your listeners who are scholars will just scoff in just a minute. We decided to do a leadership study with 15 people, and everybody said, “That's not even a good focus group,” but those 15 people had written 100 books on leadership. They'd done three million, three sixties. So, this is not a random sample; this is like Leadership Challenge, Posner and Kouzes, and Bob Eichinger. These are the folks who really know. We asked them two questions: What percent of basic leadership fundamentals, principles, fundamentals, whatever you want to call it, is basically the same stuff? Big companies, small companies, probably private companies, such as China, Brazil, and the US. The answers were 50 to 80%. One guy said, “85%, and I'll tell you what it is.” I won't name who that is, it's one of the quote… Some were 50. So, 60 to 70% of leadership is the same basic stuff. Now, again, that's a sample of 15, but it's a sample of a good 15. They've done this, they've got three million, three sixties. Question two is obvious. What is it? What is that basic stuff? And we discovered five things; these are the principles that are somewhat timeless. You may have different words. One: Strategy, you got to know where you're going. What's my future? Where am I going? What's the outside world? How do I set a vision, goals, and agenda? Two: Execution. You got to get it done. Implementation, change, accountability, get it to happen. So you got to know where you're going: Strategy. Execution: How do I get there? Third is talent: Who goes with me? Who goes with me? How do I build people? How do I make sure that people communicate, engage, and connect? Four: Human capital development. Who stays when I'm gone? How do I empower the next generation? How do I make sure that what I leave behind is better than what I found? How do I build a longer-term talent agenda? So, north, south, east, west. North: Where am I going? East: If I go east, it doesn't matter. Execution: How do I get there? South: Who goes with me? Human capability: who stays when I go?  And then, in the middle, personal proficiency, authenticity, integrity, values, and character. What we have found is that those five are pretty timeless. I can go into almost any company and say, “Show me your competence model?” I was in a company that had nine competencies. I map them against those five. One company has most of its competencies in personal proficiency. “We want our leaders to be authentic, to have integrity, to have values, to have character.” Another company got them all in execution. “Our leaders get results. They deliver, they have accountability, they manage change.” We love to look at a company and say, “Do you have a balance of what goes into those five somewhat timeless principles?” By the way, you look at them, and you go, “Duh, where are you going?” Strategy, Execution: How do you get there? Talent: Who goes with you? Human capability: How do you endure over time? And personal proficiency in the middle. And then, what we've seen is they've evolved by company and by person. I love to go to a person… One of the exercises I love, and I've talked too long on this answer… 

 

Scott Allen  23:58 

No, you're good. You're all good. This is awesome. 

 

Dave Ulrich  24:01 

When I teach, I love to start by saying to a group of individuals, executives, and those who are teaching might do the exercise, “You've all been around great leaders. Their name may be Bob, it may be Bonner, it may be whatever the name is, your mentor, my mentor. What are five or six things that make someone a great leader? And just, by yourself, write them down. Make sure they get five or six.” Everybody gets them down. And then, I say, “Read them off.” And I love to do a check. I do that probably once or twice a week. Great leaders have a sense of the future: Strategy. Great leaders manage their customers: Strategy. They have a vision” Strategy. They get things done: Execution. You know what? Your predisposition to leadership is based on strategy and execution; you didn't have anything on people. This is not a 360, this is not a scientific test, academics would scoff.

 

Scott Allen  24:58 

But it's a great litmus test for where someone is.

 

Dave Ulrich  25:01 

That's just it. This is a quick and dirty glance in the mirror, “How does my hair look today?” But it's a great kind of quick and dirty. And I've done that, and almost everybody picks one or two or three of those quadrants and go, “Oh, I believe leaders have to have integrity. They have to be authentic. They have to have character. They have to build trust.” Middle, middle, middle, middle. Boy, people love you, but you don't know where you're going, you can’t get there if nobody goes with you. And I say it with humor, but we all have predispositions. And I hope those listening would almost do that little exercise. Now, I've skewed it because I've given you the five dimensions. Top of my head, what makes a great leader? And then see where am I predisposed? And then where can I learn the other? So, I believe in leadership. Number one, it matters. Number two, it matters everywhere. Number three, I've just gone through the principles, and we see the practices evolving. For example, we talked about one today. In strategy, where you are going. One of the key behaviors today is learning to deal with uncertainty. Who could have predicted the last year and a half? We've had some major global disruptions and wars. We've had political disruption. We've had economic disruption. We've had technological… Who could have predicted ChatGPT a year ago? How do you live with uncertainty strategically? So, we're seeing new stuff show up in each of those quadrants. But those five, north, south, east, west, and in the middle, seem to be still pretty timeless.

 

Scott Allen  26:41 

They endure. 

 

Dave Ulrich  26:45 

What have I missed? What would you say I've missed?

 

Scott Allen  26:49 

Well, you let me know. You know you can wait, we could go to the conversation of culture, strategy for lunch. So culture, shaping culture, designing culture. How do you think about that?

 

Dave Ulrich  27:00 

I love it. And, for me, culture is that top left. The north, south, east, west. It's the west. How do you build an organization that outlasts you? You build a culture that is not dependent on your style? A lot of cultures are dependent on the leader. If you're an SME today and you're the founder of a company listening to your personal style, your brand becomes the company brand, but you've got to shift it. I love culture. Thank you for raising it, it's one of my favorite topics. How do most people define culture? Our culture is our…

 

Scott Allen  27:38 

One simple way I think about it is how we do things around here. 

 

Dave Ulrich  27:43 

Unwritten rules. I was in a company once, and they said, “Dave, you're not following the unwritten rules.” And I said, “Write them down. I don't know what they are.” Cultures are values, it's our behaviors, it's how we do things. I'm going to push it. One of the things we've discovered is that, in order to build sustainability, it's not what you do in the company, it's how what you do in the company is creating value for those outside the company. We like to define culture as the identity of the firm in the mind of your key customer. So, it's not how we do things, it's how the customer wants us to do things. So, again, that's abstract. Let me make it pragmatic, so I'm not an academic abstraction. Almost every company has a set of values. We value service, we value innovation, we value integrity. Take those values to your most critical customers, the ones you either have or want to have. Ask three questions. Question one: Are these the values you want us to have as a company: service, innovation, collaboration? I love that filter. One company I was with, their number one value was, “We want to be the most profitable firm in our industry.” Go to your customer with that one; they're gonna go, “No, I don't think so.” But question one, are these the values? You get, “Yeah, there are our values.” Question two gets better. What do you, the customer, need to see so that we live those values better than our competitors? What does service mean to you? What does collaboration mean to you? So, you, the customer, define the value, the behavior? I find that so helpful because value is defined by the receiver, the customer. When you travel, I just have to ask Scott because I don't know you at all, but I'm getting to know you through this, and I hope we collaborate going forward. Do you check bags or carry bags? 

 

Scott Allen  29:41 

Well, first, I didn't say this earlier, but you're fortunate to be in two ways. So that's good, that's a good thing. But I only carry on. I do not check ever, ever.

 

Dave Ulrich  29:50 

I haven't, either. We're doing a one-week cruise, and we won't check bags. So, you just flew 12 hours to Singapore, and it's midnight. They threw your bag in the car. You show up at the hotel, and the guy comes out, opens the trunk, grabs your bag, and walks off with it. Is that service to you? For me, it's not because I go, “I've carried the bag 6,000 miles. I don't have any Singapore dollars. I don't want to wait 30 minutes. I'm really tired. I need to get my sleep for my seven o'clock call.” In fact, I've almost gotten into fist fights in foreign countries. They grab my bag, and I grab it back, and he says, “I give you good service,” and I say, “Go away, I will pay you an American $5 just to go away.” The theory is question two. Question one: Are these the values you want? Question two: You define them, the customer defines service. Question one: Are these the values you want? Yes. Question two: You define them. Question three: When we do what you just said, will you buy more from us? Ah, culture eats strategy for lunch. By the way, Peter Drucker never said that. So if you have a great quote, tell the world Peter Drucker said it, everybody will quote it. Look at that third question. I was doing a talk, and I do about half my talks with HR, and half with business leaders, 600 business leaders, and they, “Oh, he's going to talk about culture, bring your pet to work, and hug, and chant.” No. Are these the values you want us to have? What are the behaviors? And question three: If we do that, will you buy more? And they said, “You mean culture should increase revenue from targeted customers?” Yeah. If it doesn't, you don't have the right culture. And that's the kind of work we're trying to build into leadership. 

 

Scott Allen  31:47 

I love that framing. I love that framing. And that customer experience, yes. Again, some of the organizations that I'm working with, let's just pretend it's a bank for a moment, at times, we'll hear in those sessions, “Customer, customer, customer, and relationship, relationship, relationship.” And, for me, we will have a relationship if you have great technology because I don't want to walk into your branch, and I don't want to build a relationship with the person who's going to be there for the next six months, and then it'll be someone else. I want great technology, and then we have a relationship. But there are other contexts where I really do want a relationship with an individual. That is great service, that's how I would define it, right? 

 

Dave Ulrich  32:33 

And let the customer define it. Let me give an example of how we live. We bought a Lexus, and I know you had experience with that industry, and it stalled at a stop sign. That's not good. And it did it again. We called the local dealer, and the dealer said, “Don't drive that car again. I'm going to drive a car out; you'll get a loaner.” They called us the next day, and they said… We live in Utah, “We have found a dealer in New Jersey where they have the same problem. We're going to fly the mechanic in to work on your car tomorrow because they seem to know what's wrong with it. Keep your loaner, but just so you know, we are paying attention to you because it's not safe to drive a car that stalls.” Wow. You talk about a loyal customer. We're going to fly somebody in from New Jersey to Utah because they've solved this problem. “Rather than teach us, we're going to fly them in, and in a day or two, you'll get your car back.” Wow. Now, again, for some, I don't… When was the last time you were in a bank? I don't want to go to a bank, so it's going to be technology-based. But that idea. How does the customer define value? So, in our mind, your culture, in some ways, is your firm brand made real to every employee. How does an employee help a customer create the brand that they live? We call that leadership brand as well. One of the things we do with leadership -- and I'm talking way too much too fast, I want to get everything in 30 minutes that I can -- people say, “Do we have the right leadership when we come into a company?” Here's where we start: show us your advertising, show us your social media, source your print, source your television. What are you telling customers in your advertising? Now, show us your leadership training program. Is your program woven around the promises you've made your customers? I say that, and people go, “Well, that's obvious.” And I go, “Those Chief Learning officers, those in charge of leadership development, when's the last time you started with the outside promises to customers?” Anyway, that's the stuff we tried to do. 

 

Scott Allen  34:51 

I love that framing, though, Dave. I've never heard that. I've never heard that framing of this, and I think it's just fascinating. How did you come upon that, or is it just years, years of dialog? 

 

Dave Ulrich  35:03 

No. I came upon it fighting with the Bellman in Dubai, saying he's defined service through his lens. I define service as the customer. So, what does that mean in a bank? What does that mean in a retail store? What does that mean in a technology company? And the minute you begin to get that head… Well, the premise my mentor taught me is that value is defined by the receiver, not the giver. Value is defined by the receiver. So, I know you've been married, you've got kids, who defines the gift that you give your spouse, you or her?

 

Scott Allen  35:39

Her.

 

Dave Ulrich  35:41

Have you ever missed it? 

 

Scott Allen  35:43

Yes. Oh, of course. 

 

Dave Ulrich  35:44

I know this is my voice; I'm raising both hands. I've missed many times. When I first got married, I got my wife tickets to sporting events, and her comment was, “Enjoy yourself.” Now, I gotta say, what was the coolest gift I got my wife? When we had three kids. And I know you've had three kids. We have three kids in a similar age range. When they were young, she was doing her Ph.D. The best gift I could give her, from Christmas Day to New Year's, was to take the three kids and give her a week alone. And then, it hit me, “What's the best gift I can give her? Not me.”

 

(Laughter)

 

Scott Allen  36:22 

Peace and quiet for a week.

 

Dave Ulrich  36:24 

Peace and quiet for a week. And she said, “Boy, that's the best gift. Let's do that every Christmas.” And we've changed, we actually spend time together now. But, anyway, value is defined by the receiver, what a wonderful principle. Anyway, that's leadership. One test and I gotta get this out, and I know our time's running. People say, “How do you know somebody's a good leader?” Here's my simple test. How often does someone leave an interaction with you feeling better or worse about themselves? Leadership is not about you; it's about do they leave feeling better. And that's the same logic. So, I've covered a lot of stuff, Scott. I just raced through stuff. 

 

Scott Allen  37:07 

Well, I so appreciate your framing. You're so skilled, Dave, at framing up these conversations in a really, really interesting and intriguing way that takes a lot of the complexity and boils it down. How does someone feel when they walk away? 

 

Dave Ulrich  37:27

Isn't that a great question? 

 

Scott Allen  37:27

We can go through all kinds of transformational leadership situational, we can go… But, in the end… So, your synthesis, I think it's Steve Jobs had a quote, “Simple can be harder than complex.” 

 

Dave Ulrich  37:42

I love that quote. I didn’t know that. 

 

Scott Allen  37:43

You have to get your thinking clean. And maybe that's what I'll call the episode “Clean Thinking.” You have... 

 

Dave Ulrich  37:51 

Well, that's LinkedIn. Can you put in 1,200 words on a complicated idea? That test is an easy test. If you were my leader and I met all my goals, and you said, “Dave, you're going to get a 20% bonus. We love you. We love you. We're going to make you a full professor at a great university.” I leave you feeling good, but what happens when I didn't make my goals? What happens when I didn't perform well? Can you, as my leader, still make sure that I leave feeling good? I'll give one quick example. I'm coaching a very senior leader in a big company. Everybody would know it, but I won't share it, obviously. Their company is global, they use email very direct. Very bold, very blunt, as a company. And I said to the leader, “Before you send out one of those feedback emails, give me two hours to give you feedback.” I'm coaching, you coach. Here was the email, “You made a huge mistake, it's going to cost us millions of dollars. If you can't fix it, you'll be fired.” Blunt, direct, candid. I said, “May I add three lines?” And I did this really quickly before he hit send. Line number one, “I care about you.” Line Number Two, “You have great potential at this company.” And then, “You made a big mistake, it is going to cost us millions of dollars.” Leaders can't walk away from the mistake. And then, instead of I'm going to fire you, “What can we learn so that this won't happen again?” And he said, “Well, I've never sent that kind of email.” And I said, “Trust me on this one.” He sent it. He sent a note back the next day. He said, “Wow, I got a different response.” Again, the point is, feel better even… “I care about you. You've got great potential, and you made a mistake, let's learn.” I think if those listening can get that message into leadership, it becomes an affirmation with discipline. You did make a mistake. Don't hide. This is not Pollyanna. Anyway, that's one little tip I've seen that has been helpful. 

 

Scott Allen  39:58 

I love it. Well, Dave, as we wind down our time together, I always ask what's caught your attention recently. It could have something to do with what we've just discussed, it may have nothing to do with what we've just discussed, but is there something you've been streaming, or listening to reading? What's caught your attention? 

 

Dave Ulrich  40:15 

I'm going to do two things. One is that you cannot do a conference, and this podcast is incomplete until I say the word AI. AI is everywhere. It's caught my attention. I've gone to people, and especially in the organization people area, I'm not in marketing, I'm not in supply chain, I'm not in technology. I think we're 20 to 30% up the S-curve. We're using AI to drive efficiency, to drive productivity. I think there are so many more things that artificial intelligence, machine learning, and Gen AI can teach us, and I'm trying to discover them. And my second goes with it. When I do sessions, I love to end with a question, “What's the best year of your life?” “14 years ago when my twins were born, 16 years ago, when I got married, when I graduated, when I did my 245th podcast, when I changed careers.” One of my friends said, “When I got divorced.” And I think they're all good but wrong. The message that I love to leave people with is the next 12 months should always be the best years of your life. And if the next 12 months are always the best years of life, no matter what age we are in life physically, we're always probing that message that you asked me to start with, “What's next? What's next?” And if the next 12 months, your next two podcasts are going to be the best you've ever had. And that mindset, I think, keeps us all into a mode of inquisitiveness, learning, and growth mindset, another hot topic. That would be my message. May the next 12 months be the best months of your life, the best year of your life.

 

Scott Allen  41:58 

Oh, that's wonderful. That's wonderful. Well, Dave, I am so thankful for your time today. I'm thankful for your incredible work. Obviously, it's prolific. Obviously, one reason it's prolific is that you're synthesizing in a really, really beautiful way. And I'm so appreciative for that. I'm thankful for the conversation that we've had. I hope we can do it again. And I hope you have a wonderful summer, sir.

 

Dave Ulrich  42:24 

You too. Thank you so much. If there's one message you want people to take from what I shared, what would the meta-message be? You've listened well.

 

Scott Allen  42:34 

The meta-message for me, again, I go back to those two words, academic abstraction, and I think there's value in that. But are we synthesizing into digestible, usable ways of framing the conversation for folks doing the work? That's how I think about it. That's what I'm…

 

Dave Ulrich  42:58 

One of my favorite papers this year was, “How do you make knowledge productive? How do you make knowledge productive?” Scott, I'm leaving feeling better about myself.

 

Scott Allen  43:09 

Well, I hope it is the best 12 months of your life, sir. 

 

Dave Ulrich  43:12

The next. 

 

Scott Allen  43:13

The next 12 months are the best 12 months. Yes. Be well.

 

Dave Ulrich  43:17 

Thank you. 

 

[End Of Recording]