Dr. Nadir Zafar & Dr. Michael Yap - Developing Leaders in Singapore

Dr. Nadir Zafar is a Singaporean national who holds several leadership roles.He is the Director of the Singapore Leaders Network (SGLN), where he leads a national movement to prepare Singaporeans for global leadership roles. SGLN is funded by the Singapore Economic Development Board (EDB) and managed by the Human Capital Leadership Institute (HCLI).

At HCLI, Dr. Zafar is the Chief Experience Officer (CXO), responsible for leading the client engagement, strategic marketing, and alumni relations teams. HCLI is a Temasek owned leadership institute backed by the EDB and Ministry of Manpower.  Dr. Zafar has a Doctor of Education in Leadership and Innovation from the NYU Steinhardt School of Culture, Education, & Human Development, an MBA from global business school INSEAD, and a Bachelor of Business Management from the pioneer cohort at the Singapore Management University.

Dr. Michael Yap is a dynamic and forward-thinking higher education leader known for his strategic prowess and ability to foster impactful collaborations. As the Regional Managing Director for Coventry University Singapore Hub, he assumes the esteemed role of the university's most senior representative within the Asian region.

Michael's impact within Coventry University Singapore Hub is profound. He has orchestrated the development of numerous strategic partnerships with regional higher education institutions, cutting-edge research centres, and dynamic commercial entities. He elevated the university's brand recognition through strategic insight and fostered robust relationships with influential governmental stakeholders from the UK and local jurisdictions.

With a deep-seated understanding of Asian and UK education landscapes, Michael is adept at navigating complexities and building bridges between cultures. His extensive travels across Asia have honed his cross-cultural competencies, enabling him to drive meaningful change through effective global engagement.

A Quote From The Episode

• "In Singapore, we are blessed to have a mix of Western and Eastern influences in the workplace. While we carry the Eastern values, we also have the Western pragmatism when it comes to doing business, and that puts us at an advantage when it comes to the global stage."

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

• Organization - Human Capital Leadership Institute
• Organization - Coventry University Singapore 
• Video - Lee Kuan Yew in His Own Words

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

• The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. Plan for ILA's 26th Global Conference in Chicago, IL - November 7-10, 2024. 

About  Scott J. Allen

• Website
• Weekly Newsletter: The Leader's Edge

My Approach to Hosting

• The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the to

Chapters

• 0:00 Leadership Themes in Singapore
• 7:37 Developing Global Leaders in Singapore
• 19:22 Navigating Cultural Differences in Organizations
• 24:38 Importance of Parental Influence in Education
• 37:05 Learning About Leadership and Cultural Intelligence

Transcript

Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.

Scott Allen  0:00  

Okay, everybody, welcome to the Phronesis podcast. Thank you so much for checking in. Today, I have two guests for whom I'm very, very excited about this conversation. I have Dr. Nadir Zafar, who is the Chief Experience Officer or the CXO of the Human Capital Leadership Institute. He joined HCLI from UAE-based education technology company Alef Education, where he was the chief operating officer. During his time, the company grew from a start-up to an award-winning organization that serves several hundred thousand students. Nadir graduated with a Bachelor of Business Management from the Pioneer batch of the Singapore Management University and holds an MBA from INSEAD. He has also completed a Doctorate of Education in Leadership and Innovation at NYU in New York. His past and current leadership experience extend to serving on the board of London-listed global education company, president of the Singapore Business Council in UAE, alumni leader for both his alma maters and founder of an ed-tech venture. Nadir is a Singaporean. We also have Dr. Michael Yap, and he is a dynamic and forward-thinking higher education leader known for his strategic prowess and ability to foster impactful collaborations. As the founding regional Managing Director of Coventry University Singapore hub, he assumes the esteemed role of the university's most senior representative within the Asia region. Michael completed his Doctorate in Business Administration at Coventry University in 2024. He took on a personal development journey showcasing his commitment to lifelong learning and intellectual growth. With a deep-seated understanding of Asia and UK education landscapes, Michael is adept at navigating complexities and building bridges between cultures. His extensive travels across Asia have honed his cross-cultural competencies, enabling him to drive meaningful change through effective global engagement. Michael Yap stands at the intersection of education, innovation, and collaboration, shaping a brighter future for academia and beyond. Singapore is short on my list. It's a fascinating place in the world. The only island city-state in the world, with about 5.5 million people. It's the most expensive city in the world according to some sources in 2022. And so, I think today we're going to go on this little bit of an adventure together, and you are going to bring us up to speed with kind of some things that you see, some themes that you see around leadership in Singapore. Now, before we do that, what do we need to know about you? Is there anything extra that you can share with us? Maybe Nadir we start with you, anything else you want to share with listeners? Thank you for being here, sir.

Nadir Zafar  2:44  

Thanks a lot, Scott. And I think you've done a good enough introduction. I'm very passionate about the field of education and leadership, and I've been doing this now for a number of years. My job entails meeting with a lot of business and HR leaders, and so I hope to share some of the insights not just from what I think but from what I think they are telling me.

Scott Allen  3:03  

Awesome. Awesome, Michael, sir. What else do people need to know about you?

Michael Yap  3:09  

Hello Scott, thank you for inviting me to this podcast. As you mentioned earlier, Singapore is one of the most expensive cities in the world. It's not very true, depending on where you go. Probably in Singapore, if you go to a local hawker center, it’s relatively cheap. So, I want to send that message out to the audience that we are not the most expensive city in the world. We are expensive but affordable. Please come to Singapore.

Scott Allen  3:33  

Good. And Nadir, you want to jump in here too.

Nadir Zafar  3:36  

I second that, absolutely. Come to Singapore because it's not as expensive as the media makes us out to be. 

Scott Allen  3:44

Good. Okay. Well, I'm glad that you all are already destroying myths.

(Laughter)

Scott Allen  3:51

That's awesome. Well, gentlemen, let's talk about… And Nadir, you had mentioned kind of, “Okay, I'd love to share some themes, what I'm hearing from some of the leaders that I'm working with.” And then, Michael, maybe we can go to you as well. But Nadir, what are you hearing from leaders? What are some of the needs that are standing out in Singapore right now?

Nadir Zafar  4:08  

I think the topics that are discussed at the leadership levels in Singapore are not too dissimilar to those faced or discussed anywhere else in the world. And the three topics that I find come up most in conversations with both business and HR leaders are number one, topics around ESG. The whole climate change, no transition, energy transition. Things about sustainability. That usually takes up a lot of mindshare among CEOs and CHROs. The second topic I see that is very often discussed is anything at all to do with generative AI technology, digital transformation, and how that has an impact on business and on the company's operating model. And the third theme I see emerging from my conversations is really about people. And the people matter; it's a huge subject that covers diversity, equity, and inclusion. Things about remote work. Things about how we can get the best people to join our company. How do we retain, attract, and develop talent? So, I would say these three topics, ESG, AI, and people matters, typically are very much thought about by leaders in Singapore.

Scott Allen  5:34  

Okay. So, Michael, I want to check in with you. And then let's go deep into each one of those. Michael, do you see anything that you'd like to add to this list that is a hot topic for individuals with whom you're interfacing? Is anything else coming to mind?

Michael Yap  5:49  

I think maybe my angle comes from the education sector and the business community. I think what we are seeing right now is this challenge in terms of training our youth to become better leaders, especially in the context of the Singapore environment. And we are a small country, as you mentioned earlier. We are 6 million people in Singapore, 30% of these people are foreigners working in Singapore, that means the values of being a leader here, you need to have a global mindset, you need to also understand working with people from different cultures. So, I think Singapore, although it’s just a small country, we are very diverse. We‘re made up of different groups of people. So, in that sense, having the understanding of what Nadir mentioned, ESG, AI, and development, I think all these areas are important. I think, at the same time, as a Singaporean leader in Singapore, you cannot behave as a Singaporean, you must behave as a global leader, thinking wider perspective of the different people in Singapore right now and having the behavior to be able to lead and engage them. 

Scott Allen  7:00  

I love it. Okay. I also think that youth should be trained to be effective and prepared leaders. And do they have that global mindset? Do they have that cultural intelligence? Okay. So, let's actually start there. Let's start there. When we talk about training youth, what do you see? What themes are emerging when it comes to…? My sense is that, culturally, there are some differences between all countries, but what are some attributes of effective leadership that are highly valued in Singapore? What are some things that come to mind for you there? What does that look like when we talk about developing leaders?

Michael Yap  7:46  

I think you're right. Youth today are very different from youth in our days. I come from a very traditional education system, my parents are telling me either become an engineer, or be a doctor, or be someone who can lead an organization. But I think the youth today are not looking towards that. I think they're the Gen Z, we call them. They might want to be leaders, assuming that, at the same time, they want something carefree. And I think technology is playing a big part in this right now. So, I believe in educating youth and training them, we need to put the effort to understand what they need and put them in a position where they have a passion for learning and to excel, at the same time, growing their dreams. I think these are all very important facts for training our youth as they develop the time in their career.

Scott Allen  8:36  

Yeah. Nadir, what do you think about that?

Nadir Zafar  8:38  

One of the things I do at the Human Capital Leadership Institute is lead a national movement called the Singapore Leaders Network. Our whole mission is to prepare Singaporean managers for global leadership roles. And while we don't necessarily do leadership development for youth, one of the things we do is develop middle to senior-level leaders. And what we're seeing is that the values of a leader in Singapore, while very good and mirror the values across Asia, may not necessarily be applicable in the Western context wholesale. Let me give you an example of that. In Singapore and most parts of Asia, there is a certain element of humility that is much admired in this culture, where we tend not to challenge authority or try to disrupt the status quo. Again, this is an overly broad generalization, but there is a tendency not to make others lose face, so to speak. Now, when we look at getting on a global stage, there's a lot more value put into being assertive and sharing one's ideas, no matter how divergent they are. I think this is something that we need to develop: the ability to adapt our skills to a global M&C or global audience. And that's, I would say, something that we have observed through the leadership development work we've done. There are a couple of things other than the ability to communicate differently that we've also observed, and one of them is about having the ability to navigate complexity, particularly in Singapore where business is very transparent. And it's one of the best places in the world to do business. We find that because it's quite an easy place relative to other countries to do business, when we get outside of the country, we have to be able to navigate chaos and complexity. It’s something we need to develop better. 

Scott Allen  11:04  

Well, my understanding and my impression have always been that, and again, please, please push back if my impressions are off, but it's a very orderly society in many ways. There's a lot of structure about how we exist, how we behave, and how we interact, and I think that's incredible. And, to your point, when we get outside of that context, that contextual intelligence of, “Can I shift gears?” This may be an instance where I need to assert myself a little bit more aggressively or my position a little bit more. And so, I think, are we ambidextrous? From a contextual intelligence standpoint, I think that's brilliant. Does that capture it somewhat?

Nadir Zafar  11:48  

Yes. Somewhat, it is captured in what you say. The ability to be ambidextrous is very important. We in Singapore are blessed to have a mix of Western and Eastern influences in the workplace. While we carry the Eastern values, we also have the Western pragmatism when it comes to doing business and that puts us at an advantage when it comes to the global stage. And so, what we do with the Singapore Leaders Network is really try to drive home that sense of being able to adapt, shift gears, and navigate these different markets with a lot more confidence.

Scott Allen  12:30  

Awesome, Michael; I know that you have something to say here as well.

Michael Yap  12:35  

Yeah. I just want to add to what Nadir has said. It's very true because we have that Western influence, the Asian culture. At the same time, we are brought up in the traditional way of living in Singapore. So, as you're aware, Singapore is multiracial; we are brought up in different environments. But I think, at the same time, what I'm seeing right now is because I'm very exposed to the British education system and the Singapore education system. Many times you look at Singaporeans, we tend to be more passive; we tend to keep to ourselves, we are shying away from asking questions. Trust me, today, Scott, if you come to Singapore, if you go to the auditorium [Inaudible 13:14] Singaporean if you ask any questions, the answer, the room will be quiet. Most of the time, you've got to encourage them to speak up. But, whereas, if you're in the Western environment, people are raising hands, people are asking questions. And that's the environment that is so much different here. I think what the Singapore education system is trying to encourage is kids to speak up, learn to face different environments, and be more independent. And I think that’s the reason why the Minister of Education in Singapore is encouraging all the higher education institutions in Singapore to send their kids overseas for internships for job placement. I think that's the time when they can expose themselves to a different environment. It might sound funny why we are pushing our kids out there, but the more we push them out there in a different environment, staying in India for three months, they will know water doesn't come easily. [Inaudible 14:05] I think it's the kind of environment that we want to train our youth to learn to survive. I won’t use the word survive but adapt to a different environment. And, to me, that's a very good learning experience for everyone.

Scott Allen  14:17  

That's beautifully said. Beautifully said. Nadir.

Nadir Zafar  14:20  

We all know that resilience is the most valued trait of a leader, but it’s easier said than done. Building resilience takes getting out of your comfort zone, getting into the rough and tough world out there, getting into the gritty parts of the world, and really going through a bit of suffering because that's when you build your character and your resilience. And that's what we need more Singaporeans to do to get out there, to the region, to the world, and see how business is done. And that's something that, thankfully, more Singaporeans are doing, and they come back with new ideas. They come back stronger for the experiences that they've gone through. And I speak with conviction because I've worked in India, I've worked in Dubai, I've worked in Abu Dhabi, I did a stint in Bangkok. And so, I know that doing business in Singapore, however beautiful and orderly and transparent and wonderful it is, is actually an anomaly when it comes to doing business because the rest of the world operates on a very different model, something which we Singaporeans have to understand better. 

Scott Allen  15:36  

Yes, but I wish it was more like what you're describing. (Laughs)

Nadir Zafar  15:40  

We all do, we all do. This is the model for how business should be done. And I guess if we are only imbibed to this environment, we come to believe that this is the only way that business is done. That's why I strongly encourage more people to get out and do business in other parts of the world. Then we realize, “Hey, you know what? There are other ways of doing business.”

Scott Allen  16:02  

Well, I think there's just a really interesting… I think it's Vygotsky who said the zone of proximal development. We're in that Goldilocks zone where we're being challenged, and what you're saying here is like, “Look, get outside of the country, see what else exists in the world, understand that.” Again, become a little bit ambidextrous. And depending on the context, can we shift gears for what's appropriate in this situation? We're going to have to challenge ourselves and push ourselves to get out there. I just hope, I hope, and I imagine the two of you would agree that the country is a both. We value who we are and what we stand for because that's such a special, special element of the country. And, when we need to shift, we can. There's this both end there. Nadir?

Nadir Zafar  16:52  

Absolutely. And let me say that we Singaporeans are blessed to have an advantage because we're a multiracial society. We deal with people of Indian origin and people of Chinese origin, and those are the two biggest countries in Asia. And so, we've got somewhat of an understanding of dealing with two of the largest countries or cultures in the world. And I think that puts us in very good stead when it comes to working in such countries outside of Singapore. We have to use that advantage. We've got to take advantage of that.

Scott Allen  17:24  

Exactly. And Michael, so what are you seeing from a kind of a British Singaporean? Talk about that a little bit because I think that it has to be fascinating as well.

Michael Yap  17:35  

I hope, whatever I say, I will not lose my job. If I do this [Inaudible 17:38]

Scott Allen  17:39  

(Laughs) We haven't had anyone lose their job yet on the podcast. Don’t start, please.

Michael Yap  17:45  

(Laughs) No, joking, joking, joking. I think, as a Singaporean working for a UK organization, culture definitely is very different. First of all, I think the UK way of doing things is a bit… I won’t say they're slow, but they’re a bit more patient in responding to things. But Singaporeans, the word that we use ourselves, we are the chop-chop kind, want to get things as quickly as possible. We don’t want to wait for tomorrow, we're very anxious. So, I think that’s a difference in culture: getting things done. But I think, at the same time, I do have Singapore colleagues working with me. When they deal with their UK colleagues, at times, they are not able to communicate well because the UK staff expect them to speak up, but the Singaporeans tend to keep to themselves. So, it's always been a cultural problem. They will come to me, “Michael, I have this problem. Can you share it with them,” I say, “Why don’t you speak directly?” I think the fear of making somebody feel uncomfortable and the fear of saying the wrong thing causes miscommunication at times. So, again, it is a different culture set. I think it’s also very important to have an understanding of both cultures. I used to tell my Indian colleagues, “Guys, it's not we understanding you, you have to understand us for us to work together. It’s not only one way round; it must be both ways.” And this is very important.

Scott Allen  19:00  

But I think the two of you are emerging in something super important. I think I love the content of cognitive biases. I love that content. And I think, Nadir, you had said a little bit earlier, like, look, we're in this complexity… And if you think about the global stage right now, we've got geopolitical shifts. We have digital shifts. We have climate shifts. We have all of these macro shifts that are occurring, and the complexity is just mind-boggling. It seems to me that, in organizational life, we navigate some of that complexity by getting in a room and making some shared sense of what these different vantage points see. And then, we, with our best guess, kind of chart a path forward. But if we're in a culture we aren't used to, I should say, speaking up, letting us know what they see, then that can leave some leaders, I think, really hanging out there, and also puts an incredible amount of pressure on those leaders to come up with solutions to problems that don't have solutions. So, I think what you're talking about is… And, I think what I love about leader development and the panacea for me, and again, maybe I overstated the panacea, but one vision I would have is that we better prepare people to work with intentionality. And the ability to switch gears depending on the context; for example, a golfer would choose a different club depending on the context. And for them to work with intentionality, know when to fall in line and go with the authority figure, know when to speak up and how to do so respectfully, and how to get their voice into the space. So, it seems like such a wonderful opportunity.

Nadir Zafar  20:50  

We've talked a lot about culture, and I want to bring up another factor in this situation. It's education. I think this is a subject that Michael will be very interested in discussing as well. But let me just specify and preface this, when I say education, I'm talking about not University, I'm talking about the early school years. So, our education system in Singapore is changing for the better, but it has traditionally been very focused on getting academic results. It has been very efficient in the way education is delivered at schools, which means that questions and discussions are somewhat less emphasized over the actual delivery of teaching material. Again, I'm generalizing, and things are changing, but through education, at least from the way I was brought up, my education system did not really give me the space to speak up. It was more of like, “Get this done, don't speak unless spoken to.” It was a different type of education than we get in other parts of the world. And so, that may have played a part in the way we've developed as leaders. Now, things are changing. At the university level, I can tell you that Singapore has some of the best universities in the world. It's got a very robust system of class discussions that happens at the university level, but in the school years, there's not so much of that. And so, I guess that's played a part, as well as cultural upbringing, in the way we've developed as leaders. Now, that said, I want to emphasize again that Singapore's advantages are that we are in a multiracial society where we've had a lot of exposure to working with two of the biggest cultures in the world. We have Western and Eastern influences in our workplace, which is a great learning ground for us. And we've got people of integrity, or these people with the perceived integrity. And that's something that really stands out is that, when you think of Singapore, you think of a country where there's no corruption or very little of it, and you have people who believe in doing things in a very straight and proper way. So, these three things put Singaporeans in a very good stead at the global leadership stage.

Scott Allen  23:01  

Michael.

Michael Yap  23:03 

Nadir brought this up about the young school years. I also look at it in a different way. I think a lot of this education depends on the parents and how we bring up the kids. I give you a very simple example, Scott. In the US, I believe you let your kid run barefoot in the grass field, run outside there freely on the sand, but in Singaporean, if a kid does this way, it means the mother couldn’t bring her up to put on her shoes because she's worried that the legs will get dirty, that happens. So, again, it's a different environment, but the parents tend to be overly protective. They don't let the kids try. To be honest, I think Nadir and I, in our younger days, were running off barefoot all over the place. But today, I don't see any kids doing that anymore. I think that is the way we bring people up. So, I think parents play a very important part in educating, and schools play a very important part. But, ultimately, I feel the way we educate our youth nowadays is also very important in the sense that giving them a chance to try, learn to fail, and learn to explore. Those are very important facts of life. Having those soft skills, as we mentioned, is intentional. What do we do? There must be a purpose when we learn something. Not just for degrees but to learn something because, nowadays, AI is so powerful. Today I want to do my podcast with you, I go to ChatGPT to come up with all the points for me. But I think the area of importance is really the soft skills: how to speak to people, how to communicate, how to be flexible, and how it's time to solve problems. Critical solving skills. These are all areas of importance in the way we are moving ahead.

Scott Allen  24:49  

I love it. Nadir, anything you want to add to that?

Nadir Zafar  24:52  

I agree with what Michael said. I think the parents and the way they bring up the kids play a large part in the development of one's skills and abilities and the way they think. Parents today, not just in Singapore but actually around the world in general, are much more overly protective of their kids. And I think that's created what they call a strawberry generation. I've heard that term only recently; what it means is a generation of people who may not be as strong. Now, I don't think it applies in Singapore, generally, I think our kids are quite resilient and strong, especially having gone through the most intense academic experience at an early start of their schooling, they're used to the pressure. But, in general, compared to when Michael and I were much younger, I think we probably went through a bit more hardship than the kids today. And so, that has helped us older folks be a little bit more resilient and strong, whereas the younger folks may find things a little bit tougher than us, the older folks.

Scott Allen  25:58  

Back to your point, if they haven't been exposed to even then some of the realities of how things work elsewhere in the world, then that has to be incredibly surprising, they can find themselves flat footed. I just have great respect for the work that the two of you are doing. And again, this both ends. I see in my mind that we have strong values that guide our work, who we are, what we stand for, and the really, really good that exists within our country. And, again, you're building a generation of individuals that can play in those other contexts and have that awareness and that ability. I think that's just beautiful. I really do. Because then when you get to these other conversations around… To your point at the very beginning, Nadir, what are you seeing? Well, we're seeing ESG. We're seeing generative AI and all the other technologies enabling disruption. We're seeing people and some of the challenges around, those are all complex adaptive challenges. That's not easy work that is solved cleanly. (Laughs)

Michael Yap  27:12  

That’s so true. 

Scott Allen  27:14  

Well, is there anything else you all want to talk about as we kind of begin to wind down our time? We've almost been going for about 40 minutes, so what do you think?

Michael Yap  27:24  

Just to add, I think the environment that we are in in Singapore, I think is also very important for future leaders to understand how to work around it because the fact is, things are being brought up this way, and education is this way, although we are changing. But the fact that somebody who's in the workforce today, who can become a system manager, is dealing not just with Singaporeans but foreigners in Singapore, you can't run away from that. So, I think, at the onset, as a young leader, you have to expect to make mistakes and learn how to [Inaudible 27:58] different people from different cultures, different backgrounds, different understanding of language. It doesn't mean that everyone speaks English. Maybe we speak English, you might not understand. We speak the local dialect, which you might not understand. So, having the understanding is critical. Again, I'm speaking from my own experience as a board member, [Inaudible 28:17] of commerce, I deal with the British community. When they come to Singapore, they might not understand how to work in Singapore also. So, I think it's that cultural exposure themselves to know how to do well in Singapore, vice versa, Singaporeans also need to adapt working with people from different nationalities. I think that understanding is very important for us to grow together as a young leader. Being willing to try to meet is very important.

Scott Allen  28:45  

I love that. You're modeling, in some ways, your bio where it says, “Collaboration.” This is a two-way process. Are we working together? And are we honoring one another? I love it. I love it. Nadir?

Nadir Zafar  29:00  

I absolutely agree with what Michael said. In fact, the whole mission of the Human Capital Leadership Institute is to develop leaders and leadership in Asia. And we see that there's a big need in the market for us to educate people about practices in business and leadership in this part of the world because it's not the same as in the western part of the world. Leadership, in general, is more often than not taught from a very Western angle. And where we see the gap is to know that, in Asia in particular, culture plays a large part, education plays another part, and the nuances of Asia are something that we have to be much better adapted. So, while we were talking earlier in this conversation in this podcast about how Asians or Singaporeans need to be able to adapt to the Western environment, there is also a great need for Westerners to understand how to do business in this part of the world. The whole thing about respecting elders, about saving face, about letting people speak uninterrupted and not having that sort of robust discussions that you expect in a different environment. I think it's interesting. And we also have to break the myth of Asia being a monolithic homogenous culture, it's not. Even within India, for example, there are probably about 30 to 40 different types of ways of doing business just because there are so many different states and different languages. So, I think that's where we come in very passionately to share with the world about leadership practices here. And that's what keeps me very excited about what I do. 

Scott Allen  30:40  

I love it. I love it. Michael. 

Michael Yap  30:41  

Yeah. I am very glad you brought both of us to this podcast to learn more about Singapore. But I think, hopefully, with our messages to the Western world, my message to all of them is to understand us and adapt to the Asian way. I think that, again, based on leadership studies, a lot has been done in the West, but in leadership studies in the East, there is not a lot. They’re in Chinese, which many people cannot read, but I think it's important for Westerners to understand the way to work and the way to lead in the Eastern environment because Southeast Asia/Asia is going to be a big growing market right now. So, I think for them to have the understanding that listening to people like ourselves to share more about Singaporeans, or Singapore, or the way to work in this region is, to me, very useful and beneficial.

Scott Allen 31:33  

Great.

Nadir Zafar  31:35  

In the past, to be a global leader, it was enough to understand how to do business in the West. But today, that's no longer the case. Today, in order to be a global leader, you have to know Asia because Asia makes up a large part of the world economy, and it's the biggest market. So, I think that's why learning leadership in Asia is much more important today than ever before. And so, like Michael was saying, I think it's very important that people put in the time and effort to understand our part of the world and the way we do business. And so, I'm really looking forward to spreading the message from this part of the world.

Scott Allen  32:16  

I think it's beautifully said. I think it's beautifully said. And whether it's what you just said or Michael's previous statement of, look, this goes both ways, and it's not just Singaporeans becoming culturally and contextually intelligent, it's people from the West valuing that and prioritizing that as well. And we might just find ourselves left behind if we aren't on this side of the house, quote-unquote, Earth, I'm using earth as a house. It's true. In many ways, it is probably deserved if we don't take the time to really work to build that on the Western side as well. That understanding and that collaboration. So, thank you so much, gentlemen. This is exactly what I was hoping we would get to. And I think we will have a lot of links in the show notes. So, for listeners, if you'd like to learn a little bit more, not only about these two gentlemen but also about their work and some other nuances, we will have resources for you in the show notes. So, please check those out. Now, gentlemen, I always close out the podcast by asking what's caught your attention in recent times. What have you been reading or listening to, or maybe you've been streaming something? But it could have to do with what we've just discussed; it may have nothing to do with what we've just discussed. But what's something that's really caught your attention? What do you think? Michael. 

Michael Yap  33:41  

Coincidentally, I was watching CNA documentary about our founder, Lee Kuan Yew, in his own words. So, that is a very good documentary that talks about Singapore's story and the way he led Singapore to where it is today. I think that is a very good documentary. I encourage anyone in the podcast to go to the video and take a look. It can be found on YouTube; I think that is very useful.

Scott Allen  34:06  

Wonderful. I will definitely put that in the show notes. Nadir, what's caught your attention?

Nadir Zafar  34:11  

Well, I'm going to just build on what Michael said because I think Lee Kuan Yew would be the embodiment of a global leader that's come from Singapore. And we don't have that many examples; I think that the CEO of TikTok is one of those global leaders. Of course, we have a number of others, but Lee Kuan Yew is definitely the most famous there. And we as Singaporeans should strive to get on that global stage because of all the advantages we've got as a small country: having one of the most competitive workplaces in the world, one of the best-educated workforces, having that multi-racial society where we've practiced working with people across two of the largest cultures in the world, where we've got a lot of Western influence and Eastern influence in which to understand. I think there's a lot of opportunity for Singaporeans to get out there and get on the global stage. 

Scott Allen  35:04  

Well. And in so many ways, it's a wonderful model of what can be. Again, whether it's many cultures existing and working together and trying to understand a model education system in many ways, it is not perfect, but there are so many strengths. Gentleman, I'm just very, very thankful for not only the work you're doing, but then also thankful for this conversation I've learned. And that's my favorite thing about this podcast; it's really just kind of me learning in public. (Laughs) You’ve helped me learn today, and I very, very much appreciate that. We'll do it again. And I might be seeing either one or both of you in Chicago in November for the International Leadership Association. So, hopefully, that will be the case. I can buy you a pint or a cup of coffee, whatever you prefer. 

Michael Yap  35:57

(Laughs) That would be good.

Scott Allen  25:58

(Laughs) or tea.

Nadir Zafar  35:59

Wonderful.

Scott Allen  36:01

Takecare. Be well.

[End Of Recording]