Dr. Kathy Allen & Rian Satterwhite - Leadership for Regenerative Futures

Dr. Kathy Allen specializes in leadership coaching and organizational change in non-profit organizations, foundations, small to mid-sized businesses, community development, higher educational institutions, and collaborative networks.

Dr. Allen has written and presented widely on topics of leadership, human development, and organizational development. She is a skilled facilitator of organizational change and organizational development. The earmarks of her work are the creation of shared ownership of the results of a change project, long-term sustainable change for the organization, and increased capacity for the staff members and leaders in those organizations.

Kathy's  most recent book is  Leading from the Roots: Nature Inspired Leadership Lessons for Today’s World. This book firmly anchors leadership in the soil of nature. It’s a foundational leadership framework that challenges our 20th-century views that leadership concepts can be universally applied to all contexts.

Rian Satterwhite serves as Director of the Office of Service Learning & Leadership at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, and teaching faculty at Claremont Lincoln University. A long-time member of the ILA, he serves on the Steering Committee for the ILA Sustainability Leadership Member Community and the ILA Committee for the Advancement of Leadership Programs. He is an active member of The Research University Community Engagement Network (a part of Campus Compact), and serves as a recommended consultant for the Carnegie Elective Classification in Community Engagement and a reviewer for the Elective Classification in Leadership for Public Purpose. Most importantly, he is a father of two and enjoys hiking, travel, and photography.

A Quote From This Episode

• "We gotta elder up here..."

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

• Ryan's list of resources (See episode transcript)
• Website: Kathy Allen
• Book: Slow Productivity: The Lost Art of Accomplishment Without Burnout by Newport
• Television Show: Shogun
• Organization: One Planet Leadership

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

• The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. Plan for ILA's 26th Global Conference in Chicago, IL - November 7-10, 2024. 

About The Boler College of Business at John Carroll University

• Boler offers four MBA programs – 1 Year Flexible, Hybrid, Online, and Professional. Each track offers flexible timelines and various class structure options (online, in-person, hybrid, asynchronous). Boler’s tech core and international study tour opportunities set these MBA programs apart. Rankings highlighted in the intro are taken from CEO Magazine.

About  Scott J. Allen

• Website
• Weekly Newsletter: The Leader's Edge

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Transcript

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Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

• Allen, K. (2019). Leading from the roots: Nature-inspired leadership lessons for today's world. Morgan James.
• Appelbaum, R. P., Steiner, F., Stillman, P., & Willis, D. B. (2021). Leadership in sustainability: Perspectives on research, policy, and practice. Fielding University Press. 
• Bolden, R., Gosling, J., & Hawkins, B. (2023). Exploring leadership: Individual, organizational, and societal perspectives. Oxford University Press.
• Gallagher, D. R. (Ed.) (2012). Environmental leadership: A reference handbook. SAGE Publishing. 
• Kuenkel, P. (2016). The Art of leading collectively: Co-creating a sustainable, socially just future. Chelsea Green. 
• Manolopoulos, M. (2021). A theory of environmental leadership: Leading for the earth. Routledge. 
• Redekop, B. (Ed). (2010). Leadership for environmental sustainability. Routledge.
• Redekop, B. Ghallagher, D., Satterwhite, R. (Eds.). (2018). Innovation in environmental leadership: Critical perspectives. Routledge. 
• Redekop, B. W. (2024). Environmentally sustainable leadership: Past, present, and future. Edward Elgar Publishing.
• Satterwhite, R. (2023). Environmental Leadership Is Contemporary Leadership: State of the Literature and Recommendations. In The Handbook of Climate Change Leadership in OrganisationsDeveloping Leadership for the Age of Sustainability. 

Scott Allen  0:00  

Okay, everybody, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world. Today, I have two friends. I have Dr. Kathy Allen. She specializes in leadership coaching and organizational change in nonprofit organizations, foundations, small to midsize businesses, community development, higher educational institutions, and collaborative networks. Dr. Allen has written and presented widely on topics of leadership, human development, and organizational development. She is a skilled facilitator of organizational change and organizational development. The earmarks of her work are the creation of shared ownership of the results of a change project, long-term sustainable change for the organization, and increased capacity for the staff members and leaders in those organizations. Her most recent book is ‘Leading from the Roots: Nature-Inspired Leadership Lessons for Today's World.’ This book firmly anchors leadership in the soil of nature. It's a foundational leadership framework for the challenges of our 20th-century views that leadership concepts can be universally applied to all contexts. And, for listeners, listen to the second episode of Phronesis, Kathy Allen was the guest. 

We also have Ryan Satterwhite. He serves as the Director of the Office of Service Learning & Leadership at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, and teaching faculty at Claremont Lincoln University. A longtime member of ILA, the International Leadership Association, he serves on the steering committee for the ILA sustainability leadership member community and the ILA committee for the advancement of leadership programs. He is an active member of the Research University Community Engagement Network and serves as a recommended consultant for the Carnegie elective classification in community engagement and a reviewer for the elective classification in leadership for public purposes. Most importantly, he's a father of two and enjoys hiking, travel, and photography. 

Okay. So, this conversation, we're having this conversation today, the week of Earth Day, because I had made a comment, I think, at the end of a conversation with Jonathan Gosling, for listeners. And I'd said something about I don't know enough about this topic around sustainability and leadership, regenerative. I hear a lot of different terminology. And I kind of said that, reflecting at the end of an episode, and I said, “This is the one thing that just fascinates me about this podcast, for the last three years, I keep bumping into topics that I really don't know enough about and that I want to learn more about.” So, Ryan, God love him. He sent me this email with, really, it was an annotated bibliography of resources. I said, “Hey, you need to come on the podcast.” And one of the first resources he highlighted was Kathy's work. And I said, “Let's do that with Kathy.” So, today, for listeners, this is a little bit of a dipping of our toes in the water as we explore this topic. And again, I'm going to get into some definitional phrasings in just a moment. It's an opportunity for us to learn. And then, we have a number of resources in the show notes for you if you'd like to dig deeper and explore this topic at greater depth. I think that would be wonderful. So, Kathy Allen, the last time we spoke together was with Margaret Wheatley, so that conversation existed at 50,000 feet. And, hopefully, today, we can bring that down to 30,000 feet. As you think about this space, I just said to you before we even started recording there's some terminology that I'm hearing that I think can be confusing at times. So, would you take us through the landscape of some terminology that people might hear? And then, what does that terminology kind of mean? And then, Ryan, we’ll go to you to comment on that as well.

Kathy Allen  3:58  

So, I think everything in nature, and also as human beings, as we evolve, our language and our thinking about a topic evolves. So, I think, initially, we were framing this as sustainable leadership. Like Ryan, I've been on the steering committee. Like Ryan, I've co-chaired the ILA’s sustainable leadership member community. And I think one shift is that leadership likes to put adjectives in front of the word ‘leadership.’ And I think that the reason why that's been kind of an ongoing proliferation for a long time is that it's a way to differentiate traditional leadership and the outcomes of traditional leadership with something that's a different kind of outcome. So, when you put ethics in front of leadership, then ethics becomes kind of a core measure and outcome of the kind of leadership you do. So, with sustainability leadership, we were framing it from, well, maybe it should be, we are starting to pay attention to what our long-term impacts are on each other and the natural environment. We should be shifting the way we lead, the way we think, and the way we make decisions so it's more sustainable. But as things have evolved, we have realized, in the end, maybe not everybody would agree with me, but the evolution, if you thought of it, minus 100 to a plus 100 scale, to minus 100 would be a degenerative outcome of leadership. So, we would lead in a certain way that would diminish the vitality and resilience of a system. It would be more exploitive; it would harvest resources faster than nature could replenish them. So, future generations would be significantly damaged. Now, a side comment: we could probably say that's what we've harvested from our traditional leadership frameworks if you look back over the last couple of 100 years. So, then you kind of move up to maybe green, and green is maybe, instead of minus 100, maybe a minus 50. From there, you're kind of shifting direction, but you're not really doing it fast enough to really make a difference. Then, you might go to zero, which would be the neutral spot, which is really where sustainability is. You're not doing damage going forward, but you're not repairing the damage that's already been done. Then, a plus 50 would be restorative. So, it would be bringing an active restorative rebalancing of the system. So, again, you would serve future generations, and you would start repairing the damage that you've left. And then, the plus 100 would be regenerative. And so, the regenerative frame is that, literally, we lead in a way that can keep pace in terms of using resources that can be harvested only at the rate of use. Many First Nations and indigenous communities, groups that are very deeply embedded in the land, tend to think with a regenerative mindset. That your purpose wouldn't be maybe the enclosure of wealth and power, but your purpose would be to ensure the social and ecological well-being of people in plan. So, we can talk more about regenerative, but the other shift in language is the shift away from adjectives like regenerative leadership or sustainable leadership to ‘leadership for.’ So, leadership for sustainable or regenerative features gets you to a slightly different tone and orientation that strengthens the fact that we're in the leadership business, but we're trying to be much more intentional about the outcome. And it's not just the outcome for now or for the individuals in the current system, but it's the outcome for future generations and the emergent future.

Scott Allen  8:12  

Steven Kempster oftentimes will ask, “Leadership for what?” And this, in many ways, nicely kind of frames up this leadership for regeneration. Thank you for that description; I think it's so helpful to visualize it in that way. I was just watching a documentary on Max about bonsai trees, which was a famously large company in the Pacific Northwest. Ryan, you would maybe know the name. And their advancement was that they were replanting the trees. That might put us at what? Like 25?

Kathy Allen  8:51  

I guess. They can sometimes look green as well, which is a small movement towards the future, but maybe not enough to keep pace.

Ryan Satterwhite  9:02  

That's a great example to play with a little bit because I think it's a perfect encapsulation of some of the challenges that we face. Because if you extract a tree and replant a tree, that can kind of be treated as a zero-sum game, that long-term sustainability plan, but then there's actually a lot of disruption that's happening in that process to the ecosystem and to the animal and plant life around it, and whatnot. So, I don't think you're at an even trade-off yet there. So, yeah, to build upon Kathy's scale she was talking about, I think we’re still…

Kathy Allen  9:37  

And you're not in a closed system. So you as a company might make a choice, but you have a lot of other people in the system that might be counterbalancing any choice that you make if you don't make a big enough choice going forward.

Ryan Satterwhite  9:52

Yeah.

Scott Allen  9:52  

So, in my example there, I'm kind of constructing it as, “Oh, okay, they're replanting, and at least, it's still even probably on that negative in that dimension.”

Kathy Allen  10:03  

Yeah, I think so.

Scott Allen  10:04  

Ryan, is there anything you'd like to add to Kathy's original framing of this topic? I think that was beautifully said. 

Ryan Satterwhite  10:12  

Oh, yeah. Everything Kathy offers is beautifully said. Couldn't agree more. I think that, for me, it is the answer to that question of leadership for what? I think it's a missing element that has been absent from the equation of leadership for too long. If we talk about leadership, followership, and context, for instance, the global biosphere that we all reside in and depend upon is that context for leadership. It's the context that all leadership happens within and impacts in one way or another. And while it's incredibly difficult to kind of effectively account for this -- which is, I think, why it's often been overlooked because it's just an unknowable externality almost -- the more that we can do to build our capacity to recognize our impact on these natural systems, and incorporate that into the decision making, and social and organizational structures that we're operating within, the better off we're going to be. I don't know of many practices that are fully at that plus 100 regenerative world yet, but I know that that's some of the work that Kathy does with different organizations to help move them in that direction. And that's the work that I'm really interested in as well. 

Scott Allen  11:44  

Talk a little bit about that, Kathy, if you would. What's so interesting in my head right now is I struggle to even think of an example of regenerative. And maybe it's just your vision, but maybe you do have some examples of organizations that are working toward. Are there some case studies that stand out for you?

Kathy Allen  12:05  

Yeah. Because regenerative systems are interesting because I know both of you are fans of systems thinking, and so when you think about regenerative, you're really thinking about and holding the whole system in the palm of your hand or in the way you think you practice leadership. And most of our leadership is actually not thinking about the whole system, it's thinking about a part of the system. If you're looking at profit and productivity, those are parts of the system, but you can do profits and productivity and also be exploitive of your employees or exploitive of natural resources. Or you can do things that give you profit in the present but actually create significant damage in the future. So, one element of regenerative leadership that would be regenerative or have hallmarks of regenerative would be, number one, you would be serving the whole system. And that can be scaled up to the globe, basically, as opposed to only a part of the system. The idea that an organization could profit would be something that would be a "parts orientation." So, one of the shifts for regenerative would be towards the whole system. The second would be the expansion of the time horizon.9 So, you start making decisions in the present in a way that you look at the costs and the benefits over time. The organizations that I've worked with that are moving in this direction might have started out with the assumption of a return on investment. So, the ROI would be an aspect of their decision-making. But if they couldn't make their money back for, let's say, buying solar panels to reduce the carbon footprint of their organization in three years, they would say, “Well, it's not a good return on investment.” But now, that language is shifting to a return on sustainable investment. So, depending on the scope of the project and the overall impact of the project, you might say that it would be worth the investment even if it took 10 or 15 years to get a return on future investments or future operational costs or things like that. So, the extended time horizon also affects the way we think about leadership. It shifts it from an individual kind of activity where self-interest is assumed in most organizations that every leader or senior leader, C-suite leader might have their own agenda, not the agenda of the whole, to think about themselves as a collective and the impact of their leadership as a collective. So, I have one organization that has intentionally started to think of itself in terms of being part of a relay race as a leadership group. So, they have inherited the baton from the past leadership in the organization's history. They have inherited the consequences of not thinking long term, for example, the way they've harvested resources or the level of trust and goodwill they have with people in their organization. And when they're trying not to pass problems to the next generation of leadership in the organization. So, what it does is it shifts the practical orientation from individual self-interest to paying attention to the strength, resilience, and thriveability of the whole. And your goal would be that you would want your organization and the community it serves to continue to thrive 100 years from now. So, by extending that time horizon, you're now making decisions within that time horizon, and you have a quality standard of thriveability and a good long-term reputation over a 100-year span. And that's just not something that most organizations think about, especially some nonprofits who are just trying to figure out, “How do I survive this budget year?”

Scott Allen  16:30  

Yeah. “What's the next grant?” And kind of on that treadmill, so to speak.

Kathy Allen  16:35  

We confuse productivity with activity when you're in that kind of short-term thing. And so, we think that if we're active, we must be producing something. But, in fact, that activity culture is really antithetical to sustainability and regenerative thinking. Nature is a beautiful teacher for regenerative design, and that's what I've discovered. I’ve discovered that leading from the roots is actually kind of a roadmap on how you get there. What do you have to let go of? What new practices should be considered?

Scott Allen  17:11  

Ryan, anything you want to add to that? For listeners, he's just kind of sitting there enjoying listening to Kathy speak. And now, I've spurred this on him. (Laughs)

Kathy Allen  17:22  

The thing is, Ryan has a big brain for this topic. So, we need to draw him out and bring his wisdom into [Inaudible 17:31]

Ryan Satterwhite  17:32  

I’m really just a fan of Kathy, who happens to be recorded in this process and joined.

(Laughter)

Scott Allen 17:38

Me too. 

Ryan Satterwhite 17:42

I want to recognize that this work isn't brand new in the field and has some deep roots if you will. Kathy is certainly one of those. She has publications from the 90s that read as if they were published yesterday on the topic, and she was a big influence on me in developing my own professional contributions and work. I've done some writing on time horizons, which is absolutely, I think, an area that needs to be thought of and engaged with further. I think the fundamental element here is a worldview shift. So, it's an important developmental process to help folks if they aren't already coming to the table with this, to develop a connection to future generations, to develop a connection to the natural biosphere that we're all dependent upon, and to develop the systems thinking and systems literacy skills to effectively navigate those larger considerations in their more immediate environment. And it's a tall order. I understand why it's a difficult thing if you're unfamiliar with it because you have all sorts of immediate pressures on your time, decision-making, organizational constraints, and whatnot. So, it's really about organizational culture change being kind of the key element here, if not broader societal worldview change, that I think is what's necessary.

Scott Allen  19:15  

So, check out my thinking here. And I'm just going to say a couple of things, and I'd love for you to say, “Yes, you get it, Scott,” or, “No, you’re off base.” (Laughs) Okay, so let's start with the UN sustainability goals. We're at a zero there. Is that accurate on your scale?

Ryan Satterwhite  19:32  

I think if engaged in a deeper way, it provides some scaffolding that can get you into the positive. 

Scott Allen  19:41  

Okay. 

Kathy Allen  19:41

Yes. I agree. 

Scott Allen  19:42

Okay. So, we've got a baseline there. We've got this ‘leadership for what?’ We would phrase it ‘leadership for…?’ How would you phrase it?

Kathy Allen  19:52  

It could be regenerative design or leadership for a regenerative world, leadership that creates conditions conducive to the light of future generations, plants, animals, people, etc.

Scott Allen  20:05  

Okay, so we've got the four. We've got the four there. And so, there's a purpose to our activities, and what we're doing is we're trying to shift paradigms. And, of course, we're bumping up against some systems that are capitalism, for instance, deep-rooted into the DNA. And so, we're trying to shift not only the time horizon but also the overall purview of some of these organizations. I think the sustainability goals have probably shifted. We're not going to go from, realistically, oil to solar immediately. There are some bridge activities here, and so the UN sustainability goals might be a bridge activity in shifting mindsets. And, I think, by conventional wisdom, Europe is much further ahead than the United States and probably the furthest of any continent as I would understand it. And then, there are some continents that they're not there yet. 

Kathy Allen  21:03  

And I would probably say the European Union is much more active in trying to figure this out. It's not perfect, but as opposed to Europe as a generic kind of territory.

Scott Allen  21:16  

Great. No, that's helpful. So, we're bumping up against. And you have an individual, so let's just go to Greta Thunberg right now really quickly. She would be somewhat of an activist who is trying to build awareness and trying to spark a movement to bring awareness. And so, we have an individual like that. And she's meeting with some of these folks in the European Union, and speaking at some of these events, and having certain levels of… Because, again, she's bumping up against these large systems that will have to shift, correct? Have I somewhat kind of landed in the neighborhood?

Ryan Satterwhite  21:56  

Yeah, I think so. I also just want to point out it's incredibly useful to engage with public figures like Greta from kind of a leadership analysis standpoint, but I think one of the core outcomes of a sustainability leadership lens is also distributed leadership, and this has to be everyone's responsibility and everyone's framework if we're going to get to where we need to go. And so, while we can learn from high-profile activists and folks working in this space, it's about the day-to-day as much as anything else. And that's what the UN Sustainable Development Goals are about as well. It's meant to scale from the micro to the macro, from small, small organizations or communities to national, international policy, and intergovernmental collaborations. And I think that that scalability, so impacting us individually as well as collectively and systemically, is what we need.

Kathy Allen  23:04  

And I think you can take maybe three or four dimensions and then question the assumptions around them. 

Scott Allen  23:12  

I’m going to interrupt you. For the listeners, this is why I love Kathy; she says we can think about this in three or four dimensions. I can't even visualize four or five dimensions right now.

(Laughter)

Scott Allen  23:28

I’m sorry for interrupting you, but I just had to highlight that.

Kathy Allen  23:32  

But you can take a dimension; let's say one dimension that moves you towards regenerative and sustainable is shifting your assumption from an autonomy separation kind of dimension to one of connectivity and interdependence. So, let's unpack that for a minute. So, if you're really truly embracing the interdependence that everything is connected, then it means that your choices, your organization's choices, your communities, your neighborhood choices, and your choices even within your family have a ripple effect because interdependence means you're all connected to anybody anyway. But then, how would that change our conversation about DEI, for example, if we started from a framework of interdependence and connectivity? Resilient systems are the most diverse systems. Fragility is a monoculture. Fragility is a homogenetic kind of grouping. We don't talk about that from a regenerative principle; we talk about it primarily from a linear social justice framework. And while I think that's helpful, we're missing the whole framework that our current system, which is not very diverse sometimes in various pockets, is actually making us more fragile, less adaptive, less capable of thriving in the future. So, that's a simple unpack if you unpack it. From a change perspective, interdependence means that you don't have to wait for people in positional power to tell you this is where you’re going to go. Networks, or flatter, any change in any place in the system can, over time, create a collective mass that literally tips the system, whether the politicians are ready or not. I think that's actually what's going on today. But then, if you take it into an organizational leadership frame, interdependence means that it's got to be more of a distributive leadership model. So, you just kind of take one stream; connectivity, interdependence, and then you say, “Oh, well, that changes how we think about change. And it changes how we think about inclusion, biodiversity, and difference. And it changes how we think about the leadership model that will be most adaptive for the future.” So, that's just one dimension. You go from a closed system to an open system. That's another dimension, and you can unpack that. So, it's from short term to long term, another dimension of time. And from dead systems and inert organizations to living systems. It's another one that you unpack. And so, all of them have practice changes. And the other thing that I love about nature is it gives you something to hitchhike off of when you start thinking about leadership. So, for example, in nature, there's no CEO. So, the traditional hierarchical frame is not actually present, but it's held together by two things. One is it has a very powerful purpose that, basically, every species has kind of embedded in its code to help create conditions conducive to the life of future generations. Creating conditions conducive. It's not an action plan, it's not a strategic plan, it's not a list of things of goals and objectives to do. You're creating the conditions, and then nature basically embeds a self-organizing capacity in everything. So, every individual is actively engaged in self-organizing, from a blade of grass to an ant colony, to bees, to bears, to beavers, to bulls, whatever. But in human organizations, we now reinforce this self-directed, self-organizing capacity. So, what does that mean for the way we think about leadership where we have melded leadership and management that is embedded in a hierarchical framework that doesn't think that anybody below a certain level in the organization has something to provide other than labor? So, you start really seeing what's not working in the system and how much has to shift. Ryan has a beautiful riff of this as well.

Scott Allen  28:13

Go for it, Ryan.

Ryan Satterwhite  28:12  

It's interesting. Most of Kathy's work, I think if I can characterize it, is around organizational change, planning, and evolution. Most of my work is with students and individuals. So, I'm really focused on that kind of worldview shift that we referenced earlier and trying to help as many students as possible go out and do whatever they want to be doing with that worldview in place in all sorts of different sectors and settings. And that's what we need. And in my experience with both undergrad and graduate students, there's a hunger for an alternative to the norms and the dominant paradigms that many of us are trapped in right now. And so, that gives me a great deal of hope for what's coming because I think that there's a lot of yearning for a different way of being, a different way of engaging with one another, a different way of thinking that's emerging right now. But it's also coming in a context of urgency. We are now feeling the daily effects of climate change. Its impact is everywhere. And we have these IPCC reports coming out talking about the rapid evolution of global climate and climate change that's happening right now. And so, I think that there's an urgency, going back to Greta Thunberg, there's a terrible urgency that younger generations especially are feeling in terms of, “What kind of world am I inheriting now, and what is its trajectory?” So, on the one hand, that gives me a lot of hope because there's a ton of energy and movement in that direction. But I have to say that it also gives me great pause because we've let it go on so long in this one degenerative direction. 

Kathy Allen  30:11  

And I think, to add to that, we have to get beyond the framework that protests in the streets are actually going to change the mindset. So, I'm 100% with Ryan that it's really the worldview, the framework of how you see our relationship with each other, our relationship with nature, the world around us. That shift, once you make it, changes just about everything in the system. I just recently did a five-year review of some sustainability work that I'm doing with a big organization in Minnesota. And five years into it, we've had our ambitious 2030 goals set, but what we're noticing is that I would call it, we're about an inch away from embedding a sustainability mindset in the whole organizational culture. And once you do that… Because what we're seeing is that it's showing up so that it's not just an efficiency criterion, but it's an efficiency effectiveness and long-term impact criteria to decision-making that has slowly just woven its way in. Once you go down that sustainability framework, it touches just about everything in an organization.

Scott Allen  31:29  

We have time for probably one more concept that you would like people to be aware of that you think is foundational for this conversation. Ryan, is there something that comes to mind for you? Is there something else that, just from a foundational standpoint, here's something to consider to be aware of? And then I'll go to Kathy, and then we'll kind of close out.

Ryan Satterwhite  31:50  

Yeah. I had the great privilege a couple of years ago of working with an amazing writing team as part of the National Leadership Education Research Agenda process. Our contribution to that was related to complex problem-solving. And one of the core outcomes from that writing process was recognizing that sustainability, the skills, and mindsets needed for a sustainability leadership approach were transferable. It's kind of an exemplary complex problem. And those skills and mind shifts for sustainability apply to a lot of other complex problems that we are equally wrestling with in the world right now. And so, I think one of the deep insights of the UN Sustainable Development Goals is the interconnection between all of these complex challenges. You cannot effectively solve sustainability without also solving or working through social justice, including something that was named earlier. They go hand in hand. The injustices of this world are coming from the same systems that are causing problems from our sustainability labs, as well. And so I think that inherent interconnection is important to recognize, and it, on the one hand, makes everything more complex. But on the other hand, if you can find solutions, it has a tendency to solve multiple challenges at once also.

Scott Allen  33:29

Interesting. 

Kathy Allen  33:29  

I think that this whole framework of thinking in an integrated way is probably, maybe, a final comment. We have so much training, like probably both of you; how many of us have spent a decade reading about management theory and practice, and then leadership, and human development, and sustainability, but I got into sustainability and regenerative design because I was trying to figure out how do you move past the silo mentality? And we're not going to get to a thriveable future with a silo mentality. So, it's this: How do we help people shift the way they think? And then, in turn, how do we redefine our relationship with things like power? And we think about how we're moving power from zero-sum top-down, rank-ordered to integrative power, where you have this kind of predisposition for trust and collaboration. Where there's a shift in the way we see ourselves in relation to each other. So I think that there's great promise in this. And I guess the other final thing I would say is that the feedback loops are already in place. We're either going to go here kicking and screaming, or we're going to go here with an active, curious mind to try to figure out how do we do it? What are we learning? What do we have to let go? What do we have to discover? And I think if we can see it more as an adventure, rather than just as a scary kind of thing that we don't know if we're going to make it or not, it could be much more fun, and we would probably learn lots on the way. Nature grows with feedback and information. That's basically how it is set up. And we're getting feedback from all kinds of systems that the way we've been interacting with each other in the world is not working. How much damage do you want to tolerate before we eventually lean in and decide, “Oh, well, maybe there's another way; maybe we should explore that”?

(Laughter)

Scott Allen  35:47  

Therein lies the leadership challenge and opportunity. I love how you phrase that. I just highlighted one of your blog posts in my newsletter, Kathy, and you say, “Can you step into that space with some curiosity and try and learn?” Because it's a fascinating puzzle. For the last part of this conversation, my mind keeps going to Kegan or adult development and, of course, your work in human development. In some ways, if you have a lot of socialized minds wandering around and in positions of authority, how do we help that transition so that people are seeing more of the whole? So, people are valuing more of the whole? They have a mind that is… Yes. And can we make some of that transition in time? Can we as humans evolve to that level of thinking?

Kathy Allen  36:45  

Well, the other thing that Ryan and I have talked about is that it's amazing and puzzling and surprising to me how many organizational leaders don't feel the urgency that I feel and that Ryan feels around this topic because it seems so obvious to us, I think. Wouldn't you agree, Ryan? And it's like, what is it? Are we not curious enough? What's really going on here? 

Scott Allen  37:13  

Well, it gets back to some of those words you all have used. Power. I mentioned the word ‘capitalism.’ And are we playing by the same rules? And do we have a collective set of shared values around a couple of things? My mind has also gone to some of the challenges surrounding artificial intelligence around the world. One of the big challenges there is it's an arms race, and so it's hard to put that; they call it the containment problem in that realm. That it's, you can't contain it.

Kathy Allen  37:43  

And the algorithms within AI are being built on our past, not our emergent future. 

Scott Allen  37:49

Yes.

Kathy Allen  37:50

Basically, it's reinforcing what we probably should be letting go of.

Scott Allen  37:54  

And so, the US might decide to put together some rules and some policies, but if China barrels ahead and, all of a sudden, gains supremacy, well, now we're behind, and we're “weak,” quote-unquote. And so, yeah. The competing commitments in this are gnarly. But something I'm going to walk away with in this conversation, which I'm very, very appreciative of, is that I'm starting to better understand the ‘leadership for what?’ And in this nook and cranny of the conversation, it's a faction of individuals who are passionate about “leadership for.” This is the ultimate purpose. Okay. What have the two of you been listening to, reading, streaming? Or what's caught your attention recently? It may have to do with something we've just discussed; it may have nothing to do with what we just discussed. But what's something that's caught your attention recently?

Kathy Allen  38:51  

I just got started reading this book called ‘Slow Productivity.’ It's the lost art of accomplishment without burnout. Cal Newport wrote it. He's also the guy who wrote ‘Digital Minimalism’ and ‘Deep Work.’ But it's about getting clear on the difference between activities and then paying attention and doing what is a productive activity. What should we be focusing on that really matters, as opposed to filling our days up with stuff? Getting more stressed about because we're not getting through our stuff.

Scott Allen  39:29

(Laughs) Ryan.

Ryan Satterwhite  39:31  

There's so much. I'm going to go completely unrelated. I am really enjoying a new show, Shogun. It's so interesting to see the cultural elements, as well as the political navigation elements that those characters are going through. I had a chance to bring my family to Japan for the first time this past summer, and we had a wonderful experience there. So, Shogun is my current go-to show that I'm just loving so far. 

Scott Allen  39:59

Good. 

Kathy Allen  40:00  

The current question I'm trying to figure out is: What conditions are conducive to the cultivation of wisdom? We got to “elder up” here. 

Scott Allen  40:10  

Well, again, my mind goes to Kegan when you say that. You have the whole adult development industry now, but you have vertical development or horizontal development. How do we create conditions, Ryan was speaking to in a little bit, so that the mindset shifts? And we're seeing a larger perspective versus walking out and staying in my silo of what's best for the world? Or, even worse, what's best for me? If we go to level two.

Ryan Satterwhite  40:39  

And ensuring that that development is as accessible to as many people as possible…

Scott Allen 40:46

Yeah. How do you scale that?

Ryan Satterwhite  40:46

… Executive coaching and whatnot. 

Scott Allen  40:47  

Yeah. Okay, you all. As always, such a pleasure. Ryan, thank you for being a spark for this conversation. Very, very much appreciate it. Take care, you all. Be 

Kathy Allen  40:59

Okay. Thank you.

[End Of Recording]