Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott Allen

Dr. Steve Kempster – Realising Good Growth: A Regenerative Approach

• Scott J. Allen • Season 1 • Episode 223

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Dr. Steve Kempster is an Emeritus Professor of Leadership Learning and Development at Lancaster University Management School and is an Associate Partner of the Regenerative Alliance. He has published broadly on leadership learning, leadership of purpose, and responsible leadership with five books and many articles and chapters. Steve leads the Good Dividends project  (www.gooddividends.com) – formed from an interdisciplinary group of academics drawn from 5 universities in Europe and Australasia – to enable business leaders to develop their business models towards becoming regenerative and realising good growth.

His latest book is ‘Good Dividends: Responsible Leadership of Business Purpose’. Recently, Steve has been the director of the Lancaster University Made Smarter and Evolve Digital programmes, which link digitalisation with regenerative outcomes and are funded by the UK government. He is currently co-director of Lancaster University's ‘Good Growth’ Programme, which is focused on reframing growth towards regenerative outcomes and building towards a well-being economy.

A Quote From This Episode

  • "What we require is evidence...where is the evidence base? How is this all coming together? How can we see the difference from this leadership that's been pursued -  regenerative leadership."


Resources Mentioned in This Episode


About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

  • The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. Plan for ILA's 26th Global Conference in Chicago, IL - November 7-10, 2024. 


About The Boler College of Business at John Carroll University

  • Boler offers four MBA programs – 1 Year Flexible, Hybrid, Online, and Professional. Each track offers flexible timelines and various class structure options (online, in-person, hybrid, asynchronous). Boler’s tech core and international study tour opportunities set these MBA programs apart. Rankings highlighted in the intro are taken from CEO Magazine.


About  Scott J. Allen


My Approach to Hosting

  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.

Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.

Scott Allen  0:00  

Okay, everybody, welcome to the Phronesis podcast. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world. Today, I have Dr. Steve Kempster, Emeritus Professor of Leadership Learning and Development at Lancaster University Management School, and is an associate of partner of the Regenerative Alliance. He has published broadly on leadership learning, leadership of purpose, and responsible leadership with five books and many articles and chapters. Steve leads the Good Dividends Project formed from an interdisciplinary group of academics drawn from five universities in Europe and Australasia, with the objective of enabling business leaders to develop their business models towards becoming regenerative and realizing good growth. His latest book is ‘Good Dividends: Responsible Leadership of Business Purpose.’ Recently, Steve has been the director of the Lancaster University Made Smarter and Evolve Digital Programs linking digitization with regenerative outcomes funded by the UK Government. He is currently co-director of the Lancaster University good growth program focused on reframing growth towards regenerative outcomes and business towards a well-being economy. Sir, always a pleasure to be with you. I am very thankful for the opportunity to engage in our second. You are an early guest, you were one of the first few brave souls to join me on Phronesis. And you tell a funny story about that. Why don't you share that with listeners? 

 

Steve Kempster  1:28  

Well, I just remember because it was so early on in lockdown, and I think I just had lunch. So, it was two o'clock here in the UK. And I don't think I was really taken very seriously because I've known you from the past. And I thought it's just going to be a couple of people, it won't last long. And I was just chatting away as if you and I were in a pub laughing. And I think I went on for too long. I think I was close to the hour mark. But, this time, much more serious, much more professional, focused on what you ask.

 

Scott Allen  2:06  

(Laughs) Well, one thing I love about our friendship is the laughter. And one thing I love about our friendship is your curiosity in this space, and you always stretch my thinking. And so, I'm excited today. And I know listeners will have their thinking stretched as well. Let's start off with some kind of definitions. I was using some words in your bio; good dividends or regenerative. Maybe take listeners through some of the basics. And then let's talk about your work and how you're seeing this concept of leadership kind of unfold. 

 

Steve Kempster  2:40  

Yeah. That was pretty heavy lexicon that you went through, so my apologies. 

 

Scott Allen  2:45

You made me say words like Australasia, and stuff like that.

 

Steve Kempster  2:48  

Yeah. Could you put a pin on the map? Would you know where it is? Anyway, so regenerative, I think that's the big word. And I think it needs to become a much, much bigger word in people's everyday conversations. And we'll probably get into that to an extent. So, we often think of sustainability as the goal. And, in many ways, it's a good laudable thing to be pursuing, but it sort of means, in practical terms, limiting the amount of harm we do. When can we get to no harm through the activities of what we're about? The idea of regenerative is to go beyond that and beyond restorative. So, regenerative draws from a biological root. So, you'd have an ecology to which species are interconnecting with plants, and you create this very complex web, an ecosystem that enables all to flourish. But, in that flourishing, things get born, things grow well, and things pass away, but it's all part of that same ecosystem. In a sense, their death enriches the future opportunities for others. So, instead of thinking, it will always get better -- and we may touch on it when we get on to growth -- regenerative is basically a flourishing dynamic in which, if you take an example of a business because that business exists, it is embedded in an ecosystem, that it is enriching all those it interconnects with. So, as a consequence of its doing well, the ecosystem must do well. It's not a question of if that business does well others must suffer. It's not a zero-sum game. It's embedded in its place, in its community, in its environment. It's flourishing means others flourish with it. But it's a much more complicated dynamic because, eventually, it may well move on, pass, and change in ways, but it releases people and resources that are enhanced for other places to make a good impact. So regenerative is a really important word. So, if you imagine you end up with a regenerative economy, or you end up with a regenerative business sectors, you're getting caught up in a really interesting dynamic of a world where others are engaging and benefiting. It's a bit like enlightened self-interest because I'm investing in others, so it reciprocates and comes back. And that's where the good dividends argument started flourishing. So, the idea of good dividends, and it was a deliberate word, and it causes problems, well, it caused me problems trying to explain dividends because everybody thinks of finance as soon as you say dividend, typically, shares. “What dividends are you getting from your shares?” It would be a normal conversation. But the way we develop the idea of dividends is it's a return, it's a benefit. So, let's say, for example, investing in your employees. So, remember that regenerative ecosystem I was talking about, if you engage and invest in people, whether that's through appropriate reward, remuneration, whether that's through the development of their skills, whether that's through making sure the work that's done is meaningful if you imagine that you are investing as a leader and try and create the conditions in which people give off their best. There's nothing new here, Scott. The look that’s on your face is like, “I think we know all this,” and we do. I'm going to be saying is indeed common sense, I hope. So, if we invest in employees and human capital, what is the return? What is the dividend from that appropriate investment in people? Well, what we overwhelmingly know from others’ research is that employee engagement is very high through that investment, productivity is up, quality is up, customer service is up, and innovation is up. So, you get this flow through. So then, if you imagine good dividends are a set of these capitals, like human resource capital people, then you've got operational capital, innovative capital, reputational capital, marketing, orientation, and financial capital, of course. But your sixth one is Planet Community. So, imagine a business that invests in its community or invests to enhance its local environment; what is the return to the business from that investment? So, this isn’t philanthropy; this is actually saying, “We wish to make a strategic development in our neighborhood, maybe with a particular charity, that, because of our engagement with them, we will track that investment, as we would in any other way, to see what are the benefits that flow so we can sustain that partnership, grow that partnership, make it regenerative, both of us are working together getting better and better in what we do. And, as a consequence, we see that dividends flow into the whole business system.” So, people feel more engaged, and it's meaningful what we're doing. We've explicitly developed this partnership with maybe a particular charity or charities. We can see that our reputation is enriched because of this authentic nature, that what we're investing in this partnership matters to us, and that flow. So, now we've got meaningful work, employee engagement, we've got enhanced reputation, and you can then see how that then flows around these capitals. So, hence, the idea of dividends. Now, the word good. There's a risk here, Scott. I'm turning into one of my lectures to undergrad, and I’m going on and on!

 

Scott Allen  8:29

(Laughs) You're all good. 

 

Steve Kempster  8:30

So, the word ‘good.’ I think the word good is wonderful. If you're still listening, and everybody else is still listening. The idea of a good person, Scott. Just think for a second, someone you know in your life who's a deeply good person. I’m going to put you on the spot, Scott; what characteristics would you see in that good person?

 

Scott Allen  8:53  

Well, they are ethical. They follow through. They're interested in others. It's not all just about them, but they are other-oriented at times. They are benefiting the space around them and creating a space for others to thrive as well. I just thought of my wife. (Laughs) I described Jess.

 

Steve Kempster  9:24  

Yeah. And, in many ways, I don’t want to go off into a tangent, part of the good dividends is rooted in an ethical, philosophical base around virtue ethics. And so, what you're describing are the virtue practices of a very good person. And so, if you then imagine you go from a good person to a good business, those characteristics then flow through how they do their dealings. So, the idea, in case anybody thought so, you do some nice things for some charity in order to make your reputation a bit better. That sounds a bit like virtue signaling, or greenwashing, or some dynamic like that. Well, is that what you are about? Is it authentic? Is this strategic, this investment in this charity? Is it part of your business plan? Is it part of what you speak to your employees about and pursue it, as opposed to a quick one-in, one-out, move on to another charity, and we didn't get a dividend from that? So, it's that sense of how the good fits those dividends as opposed to just the exploitation of dividends. It's the sense of the business and what it's about. 

 

Scott Allen  10:30  

Well, I have a word that comes to mind: design. It seems to me that this requires design, forethought, and intentionality.

 

Steve Kempster  10:40  

So, you very kindly said in the bio that you read through that the latest book is ‘The Good Dividends.’ And it is. That was in 2019 when it came out. And I'm now working on a book with three others, and it's called ‘Good Growths.’ So, I’m nudging us here to get into that good growth conversation. Oh, here's a fascinating thing. You imagine this, Scott. There are four of us. There's Stuart Barnes, me, and Dr. Stuart Barnes, and we're going to write the text. We've then got a graphic designer, who's co-author, and then we've got a digital software writer, who's going to create a companion website that has a series of tools. And so, you get QR codes as you work your way through the book. That spring you unto tools that are informed. So, we're only allowed, this is what we've decided, to use 25,000 words for the whole book. And so, we're condensing all these arguments down about how a business can set about creating good growth. What we're trying to do is translate the text into graphics imagery that sits alongside a digital platform, and you go backward and forward in and out of it. And it's completely focused, not on academics, but on owner-managers, particularly small, medium-sized enterprises. 

 

Scott Allen  11:54  

You're helping more of the business owner think through how they design and build this into their DNA if they haven't begun with that forethought. You're helping them think about how it could be a part of their DNA, correct?

 

Steve Kempster  12:10  

Yeah. Exactly. And how it becomes exactly part of them. And then going further allowing the sense of a purpose-led business to flourish through in all that it does. So, you design, with purpose, explicit at the heart of what you do.

 

Scott Allen  12:25  

Well, Steve, I'm wondering, are there organizations that… It's too bad; I guess I struggle to think of a regenerative organization, but I have not studied this space like you have. Do you have some examples of organizations that are either squarely in the space of what you're discussing or bumping up against that space? My mind goes to a B-Corporation in the United States where it's a benefit corporation where there's a little more in the DNA than just profiting shareholders. But are there some examples that come to mind that you could share with listeners? 

 

Steve Kempster  13:03  

Yes, great point. So Stuart runs his own boutique management development business. And they're a B-Corp. So, they've just gone through the whole accreditation process. And so, that's really interesting that you bring that up. So. let me give the example of the UK’s largest private dairy called Cotteswold Dairy. And they're based, unsurprisingly, in the Cotswolds, but they're spelled slightly differently to Cotteswold. That's a slight distraction. But, anyway, Cotteswold Dairy, and I've been working with them now, off and on through Stewart, for about three, four years now. And they've been exploring the Good Dividends. They've tried to turn that into strategy, DNA in a sense. They've become very explicit with their purpose to be at the heart of a regenerative dairy community. Now, there's quite a challenge, actually, in a dairy community because, basically, they're pumping a whole bunch of methane through their partners, the farmers. And that's a really, really bad thing. So, the challenge then to turn that whole community regenerative is huge in comparison to, perhaps, many other sectors. But they've grasped that challenge. Now, here's an interesting thing. I was doing a session with them, and, very fortunately, the MD and the Chief Operating Officer were both in this session. And, at the break, I can see them just talking about an example I'd given of another company up in the Lancaster area that started partnering with charities rescuing people from modern slavery. It's a big thing globally, but it's equally a big thing in the UK, and it's a big thing in northwest England; people are being exploited in all sorts of bad ways. Anyway, so I gave the example of this company, a contract cleaning company, quite a large one; 700 employees, and they were struggling to hang on to their employees in the sense it's the first step. You get a cleaning job in order to rescue your CV to move on. So, if you were in a bad way, you can get really readily into a cleaning company and move on. So, the churn rate and the attrition rate are quite extensive. So I gave them that example, and they started working with this charity dealing with modern slavery who had rescued people out of modern slavery. And now, they were setting up packages of employment opportunities. And then, other charities connected to creating homeless charities so they could have homes with people who'd been rescued, and now employment opportunities, and so on, and so forth. So, I gave them that example. About eight months later, Justin, who’s the operation director, contacted me just to ask me some questions because they hooked up in a partnership with the local prison. In the prison, they had started a scheme where lifers, people who have been convicted of murder, will get to the end of their 25-35 years and go on parole. And part of the process is, can we move them back into society as valued members of society, get over the stigma, create employment opportunities so they basically go into a business for three or four days a week, but every evening, they'd go back to the prison. And so, they created a scheme for doing that. And what they wanted to talk to me about was how we would measure that. So, instead of being philanthropy, that's a nice thing, we ought to do that. What we want to do is address our attrition rates. What they wanted to do, they were struggling to get employment. This was 2021, 22, and because we've gone through Brexit, and we no longer had a pool of people available coming into the UK, so now we've got a scarcity of labor. So, they took that example I gave over modern slavery and thought, “Can we do something similar?” What they did was set a bar by having a series of measurements around the business. If we measure the level of employee engagement, does that change as a consequence of doing this pro-social, purpose-led activity? Are we seeing, as a consequence of that, any increase in productivity or quality, and how can we measure that? Are we seeing any change in our reputation, particularly internally, how people see us and what we do? So, they had a series of measures, and they then got the scheme going with the prison and ran it all the way through for a couple of years, measuring that follow-through. And they got to an answer, which was because their attrition levels had fallen back so high, because the level of employee engagement had risen so much, because their sense of purpose now around the work was very, very strong, they were seeing, basically, a return in the region of a quarter of a million by not paying agencies for the recruitment of people because their attrition rates have dropped so significantly. And now they're seeing all sorts of other spin-offs around productivity, and idea generation, and continuous improvement. So, they're measuring all those things, and it's going through. And they've grown it. They've indirectly now employed four of the prisoners as employees, and they've now got a partnership with a charity around addiction and homelessness. So, they've got two other charities they now work with, all part of a strategic plan to become regenerative in the community. Very exciting case of what they've done by just thinking these ideas through.

 

Scott Allen  18:26  

Well, then it seems to me that, in some ways, embedded in how you're challenging these organizations to think is that there's a both and here, that it's not an either-or, but there's both ends. This can be done well, and there can be a strategic purpose for this that will benefit the organization. That it's not an either-or. Is that accurate? In some ways, is that part of the challenge here of really setting the stage for individuals to think in that way?

 

Steve Kempster  18:55  

Yes. We normally refer to it as a win-win. Everybody's winning. So, for example, by taking those prisoners into employment, or at least setting them up for employable jobs if they don't come in directly into Cotteswold Dairy, then UK doesn't have to pay all the social service costs for people who are unemployed, who need housing allowances because we've moved them into employability. So, our society benefits. Clearly, the prisoner benefits if they're going somewhere where there's good work. And, what they were looking at was the feeling that culture had changed inside Cotteswold as a place that really is pursuing a regenerative community and is doing these things in ways that hadn't been considered. So, it is a win-win, but they were doing it strategically. It was how they wanted to do business. Here's the interesting thing, though, because this is a leadership podcast, and we're talking maybe about business modeling strategy; for Justin to do this, to take the lead, to wish to pursue these relatively unorthodox approaches is quite a significant aspect. He needs to have the confidence to pursue that, persuade the board, and persuade the employees. You imagine you are working alongside someone who has been convicted of murder, who's now on your team? Those are massive issues for leadership to consider. Now, if we extrapolate that out, this becomes an enormous leadership challenge that will be significant for the next 50 or 100 years. How can those who are in disproportionate influence positions, those leading, who have resources, who have power to make these things different? Can we learn how the Justin's of this world have set about pursuing this pro-social purpose-led approach in their organizations where suddenly, not suddenly, over the space of 18 months or so, Cotteswold Dairy is now a beacon for organizations who are now talking, all sorts of organizations are talking to me about how could we adopt some of these approaches and policies? But it's right at the heart of leadership. It is not about people's character and behaviors but about their intentions, what they think is important, and how we set about pursuing these things that deeply matter. Because I'm hoping you're going to ask me about Good Growth. 

 

Scott Allen  21:28  

Yeah, please. Let’s go there. 

 

Steve Kempster  21:30

Are you sure? 

 

Scott Allen  21:31

Yeah. Please, let's do it. 

 

Steve Kempster  21:32  

So, I was just doing a little bit of background work -- this is how I've taken it so seriously, Scott, compared to last time. I did a little bit of prep. I've got a piece of paper next to me here. So, here's a little interesting stats. So, the Bank of England did a nice little report. And for living standards to double up to 1750, it took 3,000 years. Since 1750, living standards have doubled roughly every 50 years. Then you coincide that with, well, what was going on while there was innovation? There was capital becoming freed up. We had the birth, basically, of capitalism on a big scale on steroids all over the place that flourished from the mid-1700s to what we see is normal now. So, if you look at growth in terms of living standards, it's been staggering. If you look at people's increase in their lives in terms of what we now would expect, I hope to get into my 90s. You're much younger; you might expect to get into your 100s; if I can ask, Scott, how old are your children?

 

Scott Allen  22:40  

My children are twin girls; they are 13, and our son is 15. 

 

Steve Kempster  22:45  

And we would expect, as part of our lives for them in their generation, to go on 100, 110 maybe. And there may be some other breakthroughs that move that, but we don't know about it now. Now, that has come about through growth, through increasing living standards, through what's described as GDP, gross domestic product, and the amount of money flowing through increasing per person, per capita. So, on the one hand, these incredible things that enhance life are going along through growth, which is a good thing. On the other hand, there’s a wonderfully paradoxical situation here; it's a dreadful thing because of climate change. And climate change, you've probably had much more thoughtful people than me on your podcast. I’m just trying to think.

 

Scott Allen  23:32  

We have not had a lot of climate change conversations, so I’m… 

 

Steve Kempster  23:36

Have you not? 

 

Scott Allen  23:37

No, no.

 

Steve Kempster  23:37  

Okay. So, let me just throw some stats that we might be familiar with. Apparently, about 800 million people would be affected if the sea level rose by half a meter. So, that means New York and Miami for you, Shanghai, a whole stack of other cities around the world [Inaudible 23:58] around many, many, many. Now, there was a report out around October that got very, very little traction in the news and certainly is not still being spoken about. The West Antarctic Ice Sheet is melting. It's melting rapidly. In fact, it's melting at such a speed now that whatever we do, we can't stop it. If that West Arctic sheet melts its way, which is what this report was saying back in October, that's about a five-meter rise in sea level. We're now talking about billions of people who are now affected. So, now we think about your children who may well live to 110. But, in their lifetimes, probably most of that ice has melted. And so, the economy is now trying to wrestle with multi-trillion retrenchment, managed retreat of most of the major cities of our world which are around the coastal inland. You then say, well, that's one terrible thing. But, at the same time, water scarcity through increased temperature is very, very bad. We've then got crop failures. We've got ocean acidification; there was a great talk at the conference that Jonathan Gosselin did that we basically are on the cusp of carbon dioxide, killing the food chain inside our oceans. That's going to have a disproportionate impact. Now, this is deeply depressing stuff.

 

Scott Allen  25:25  

Well, not to mention the climate migration. So, you're going to have people moving from one place to another and encroaching, quote, unquote, on these people who've been there for years. And now a whole ton of people have moved. And just kind of the stress that that causes. It's very concerning. Very concerning.

 

Steve Kempster  25:51  

Yea. We've currently got around 60, 65 million people displaced because of all these changes going on. So, climate change produces conflicts between nations. 

 

Scott Allen  26:02  

And the only thing that we can kind of equate that to right now is, let's say Syria has a civil war, and all of these Syrians are going all over the world. Well, think of how, for some countries, that was a major shift to have an influx of individuals from Syria now in their country. Let's just take any of the northern European countries; that's the type of shifts we're talking about, where you now have 3 million people moving to other areas and the stress that puts on either that country or that community that we weren't planning for. That's the best we can possibly do right now. 

 

Steve Kempster  26:41  

We're worried about it now, Scott, and you imagine it increasing fivefold, tenfold over the next 100 years or so. Imagine what your children, and particularly their children, are then trying to do. But, equally, imagine the conversation that your children or their children are saying, “What did that generation at the beginning of the 21st century do? Wasn't our dad involved with a really leading podcast on leadership? And weren’t they the great thinkers? And what was the debate? What was the conversation about leadership, making a difference, and how can we make a difference?” And that's not the missing conversation. It's going on, I'm sure, in many places, but it's not going on with enough traction. It's not going off with enough seriousness. It's not salient enough to make people have this everyday conversation in their bars. This is going to be staggeringly bad. And the work that Dennis has done, Dennis Tourish, and you can see it in these great leaders, I’m avoiding being political here. But the sense that these pressures almost inevitably produce extreme reactions. And so, we end up voting for people who have very clear answers to these massive problems. And there aren't any clear answers. I’m avoiding being political, but I'm skipping around that. So then, just take my thesis here. On the one hand, growth in increasing living standards has been a really good thing in increasing people's lives, particularly in the developed world, the Western world, so to speak. But, at the same time, that has created effective climate change since the Industrial Revolution. So, how do we find a way through this? Do we go for degrowth? Do we ask the developed countries, the Western countries to reduce their living standards? And in democracies, which most of them are, who is going to put forward that argument that the living standards will fall back by 10, 20% over the next 10, 15 years, and get elected and have power? It's highly unlikely. And at the same time, the view against that argument will just have even more fuel through ever-increasing numbers of refugees moving around the planet, where we therefore need to build bigger and bigger walls, or whatever. We're in the UK wishing to fly people to Rwanda. So, we know that Africa is going to be hit really badly by climate change. So, what we're going to do as our policy is fly them back to Rwanda, in Africa, as the solution to people coming across the channel, and that's just going to get worse and worse. So, you're going to have these polarized, extreme… You got degrowth; I just don't think we'll ever have traction. So therefore, what is the way to go through this? And so, what we're trying to articulate, as a group of us, is this idea of good growth. So, we've gone through the word good. We've gone through those ideas and the dividends by investing in and partnering with charities and other organizations in your neighborhood, addressing the environment or addressing social issues. And if we could imagine that business as normal was exploring those things, just as Cotteswold Dairy would do, if that was the normal business perspective, then we would see this multiplier effect. Not just what businesses we’re doing, but it will create an activism that would influence government policy. So, then you can imagine government policies are enabling and encouraging even more good growth to occur with taxation systems, penalties, allowances levies, that you begin to see a complimentary sense of the activism and the work that the business is doing creating enormous pressure on governments to change the way they see the nature of growth. So, instead of growth being GDP, growth becomes increasing in living standards and lowering ecological concerns. That would be a sense of good growth. 

 

Scott Allen  30:43  

Well, I had a conversation back in January with Barbara Kellerman. We were dancing around similar conversations. And one of her statements was, “The only Savior right now is technology. Maybe some type of technology will save us from some of these kinds of metrics that are not moving in the right direction.” And again, whole parts of Antarctica, the size of Manhattan, sloughing off. But check me if I am not saying this correctly. But what I really enjoy about how you are thinking about this is, in some ways, it's, and again, I could say this is a both, and this is a win-win, but you're using capitalism against itself. You're showing that this good growth can be incredibly profitable and do good in the world, potentially even not just making it sustainable but regenerative. Am I tracking with you, Steve? 

 

Steve Kempster  31:45  

You are tracking. But there could be many people listening in who would say that's deeply simplistic and naive. And therefore, what we require, as researchers, you and I are, is evidence-based. So, instead of just anecdotal, the Cotteswold Dairy and I tell the story, and, of course, I'll tell a good story. Where is the evidence base? How is this all coming together? How can we see the difference from this leadership that's been pursued? Regenerative leadership, or playspace leadership, or whatever name people want to give to it. And so, we need to do good work. In my judgment, the leadership industry, at least a bit of it, to roll up its sleeves and say, “How can we build a database, build an evidence base to enable leaders to see this as business as normal, rather than exceptional and strange?” And that's, I think it's the work that's got to be done, in my judgment, in the next 10, 15 years or so. Brad Jackson, and you've had Brad on a couple of times; he's doing some great work with a group of people down in North Island, New Zealand, around a managed retreat. And that, so managed retreat, you take those coastal cities, towns, villages, and how do we think about moving them to other places? As you think about the movement, what you're deeply getting into is community leadership. You're looking at a very different model of the power of engagement of different community leaders, different government leaders, local government leaders, and businesses coming together in their own distributed shared community-orientated approach to think through and enact managed retreat. And I think some of the ideas from that will spill over to address many of these other problems that we're talking about. So, there is seeds of great work that is going on all over the place, actually. 

 

Scott Allen  33:31  

Is there a multinational organization that you have on your radar that, again, is flirting with some of what you're writing about? Does anyone come to mind right now?

 

Steve Kempster  33:41  

I would say the nearest there's the World Economic Forum. They're meeting in Davos, literally now; sadly, they're not having this conversation. They have probably all flown in with their private jets, and all that issue is going on. I hope some of these conversations are going on about what good growth would be. No longer GDP, but when we talk about increasing living standards and lowering ecological concerns, how do we make that happen and, at the same time, grow our businesses in the way that we've been talking about? How do we really do that? And what is the role of government in making that happen? Maybe they're having that conversation. But I think that the group that will have the most immediate impact is B for Good Leaders. Have you heard of B for Good Leaders?

 

Scott Allen  34:21  

No.

 

Steve Kempster  34:22  

So, benefit corporations the B-Corps, the group that managed the setup of the B-Lab, particularly B-Lab Europe, they formed B for Good Leaders. Meaning Benefit Corporation for Good Leadership. And they started their annual conference two years ago, and I think they had just over a thousand. They had over two and a half thousand, I think, last year, and we're expecting even more at their conference coming up in May, June. Now, these are benefit corporations, and many other people connected to that, who are looking for ways that business can do the sort of things that we've been saying now. These are all leaders. These are leaders gathering together to make it happen.

 

Scott Allen  35:04  

You need to be their keynote. Do you want me to call someone to get you set up to keynote that conference there, Steve?

 

Steve Kempster  35:09  

Well, you're right. A colleague of mine who set up the Regenerative Alliance, and I’m probably speaking slightly out of turn, but the Regenerative Alliance is very closely partnered with B for Good Leaders. And in the B for Good Leaders Conference, there's a tool that Randall, who set up Regenerative Alliance, and I have created called Leadership Mirror, which asks a series of questions of people based on the conversation we've had this afternoon or this morning, or this evening, wherever you are. So, in a sense, I am there, but I'm there two or three removed from being there. But Randall is there, and Randall is key. He's a wonderful, great guy.

 

Scott Allen  35:51  

Well, what I really enjoy about this conversation, and in some ways, the practical wisdom for me, is the challenge at times of academia is that we are thrust into this system, the British Academy of Management, or Academy of Management, that the whole game is writing in these specific journals, and then you have security. And so, that becomes your world. Is this head down in these journals? And hopefully, your writing is doing some good in the world, but generally speaking, you're just trying to stay safe. And your work is moving into… Obviously, you've published in all of the best journals in the world. And you are now really focused on how this works and how our work actually makes a difference and actually moves the needle and helps the world be a better place. And I have great respect for that. I really, really do because you bring this wealth of knowledge about leadership to the conversation. And then, criticism, at times, is that we're navel gazing and just focused inward, and we're not necessarily making a difference. And it sounds like they are on the front lines of trying to do that work. 

 

Steve Kempster  37:08  

Very kind, very generous comments. To a slight different twist, have you got a pair of jeans on? 

 

Scott Allen  37:14  

I do not. I do not have jeans on. I have sweatpants, I just got done with a walk before we talked. 

 

Steve Kempster  37:21  

Because I was doing my homework… 

 

Scott Allen  37:22

This is changing. Are you wearing jeans? (Laughs)

 

Steve Kempster  37:25

Well, here's the thing. Strangely enough, I am wearing jeans because I came across this stat yesterday; I just want to make sure I got it into the podcast, if that's alright with you, to make a pair of jeans consumes 10 years consumption of one person's water. So, the water you would consume over 10 years is the amount of water to make one pair of jeans. So, when you get jeans, look after them really carefully. Actually, you got very good jeans and your children have the benefit of that. 

 

Scott Allen  38:00  

Well, I meant what I said. I think you're tackling some of the really big challenges. And I love your phrase ‘Leadership for What?’ And you are continuing in some ways to help us define leadership for what? And I love how you're thinking because, in some ways, back in January, I had some episodes that were really kind of exploring the context of what's swirling around us right now. And you're thinking in ways of okay, how do we planfully move and shift from that old mindset into a new mindset of what leadership's purpose is, of what organization's purpose is. And I think that's valuable.

 

Steve Kempster  38:45  

Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

 

Scott Allen  38:47  

So, I always close out these conversations by asking what you've been listening to, reading, and streaming. It could have something to do with what we've just discussed; it could have nothing to do with what we've just discussed. I know you're a lover of music and a voracious reader. So, what's caught your attention in recent times? What do you think?

 

Steve Kempster  39:07  

Well, I remember you asked me this question back in 2020. And I thought, “Why am I not listening to podcasts when you said,” “Tell us about your favorite podcast?” And so I tend to listen to politics podcasts. And so, there's a nice one in the UK called, ‘And The Rest is Politics.’ And it's really, really good. So, if you get a chance to look at it, listen to it, you might just get into it, but it’s UK politics. Ever since my history teacher, she took us to the Houses of Parliament when I was 18. And we were up in the gallery, ‘Visitors Gallery’ it's called, and you've got this is in the House of Commons. And they took a vote of no confidence when we were there. And the Labour government lost the vote of confidence and there had to be an election. From that day onward, I was captivated by politics. I find the complexity, the intrigue, the way they communicate, and so many dimensions of politics fascinating. And, for the cold conversation that we've had, it is so important. The whole politics, politicians get it. And even more, Scott, I would say that we, as consumers of this stuff that we've been talking about, become more sophisticated so we can allow our politicians some space to explore, express, and think these things through instead of glib, short answers, because it's a super complex thing that we've been talking about. And we, as consumers of this stuff need to become really, really thoughtful and engaged to help them to come up with the right ways of moving this agenda forward. So, that podcast. And YouTube, I can't remember if I mentioned this, but I'm still following the Daily Dog. Do you follow the Daily Dog? 

 

Scott Allen  40:59

No. 

 

Steve Kempster  41:00

Daily Dog is an American guy, don't know which part he’s in. You'd know it as soon as you hear his accent. He's a classical composer. And he basically examines music, and he's got a keyboard right next to him. And he's brilliant. He'll listen to something and he'll say, “I think that's in G minor.” And then, they'll play it as they're playing it, “Oh, I see what they're doing.” And they're moving here and there. And then he goes back and listens to it makes sense. But he also is a scholar. And he wants to know everything about how the music was constructed, what the lyrics mean. And so, it's multi-layered. So, I listened to the Daily Dog, and it's really engaging, very entertaining. And he does talk about a lot of music that you and I both like.

 

Scott Allen  41:42  

Every day, he has another... 

 

Steve Kempster  41:46  

Yeah. Every day. Friday is the best day because that's when he tackles the big pieces of music. So, you have a good big session where he might tackle Genesis ‘Supper’s Ready’ or something like that. And he gets right into it. Yeah. So, that I enjoy a lot. What do you listen to? What was your podcast favorite?

 

Scott Allen  42:03  

It’s my podcast favorite. I've been so immersed in audiobooks, and so I think I have probably six audiobooks in the queue. This question that I ask at the end of the podcast has taken me on so many different adventures. And so, in recent times, I've listened to books on digitization, and there's one called ‘The Coming Wave,’ which was developed by one of the co-founders of DeepMind and was developed in the UK. It's all about artificial intelligence. You and I have been talking about that topic for a long time. Probably in 2017 or 2018, at the ILA conferences, we were doing sessions on that topic. And then, also, back to your point that there is so much knowledge in political science that I don't think is translated over to leadership, which is tragic. So, I listened to two books. Dennis Tourish, who you'd mentioned, offered up the book, ‘How Civil Wars Start,’ which was a political science professor from the University of California, San Diego. AndCyn Cherrymentioned a book ‘How Democracies Die.’ There are some behaviors, at least in the context of the United States, and I know around the world, there are some behaviors, and there are some norms that are being shattered and that are not, in my mind, sustainable. And so, I'm wondering what's going on. What's swirling around us? What's happening that is causing some of this? The political divide, and we're coming into an election year. So, these political scientists are putting names to things that I didn't have the language for. So, for instance, if you have a population, so let's go Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland. And if you have Protestants come in, and, in some ways, downgrade a population of people, their lived experience, and this could be anywhere in the world throughout world history, if you have a population that has been downgraded or has been downgraded, either systematically, or has been downgraded just because of demographics. So, one of these political scientists talks about the US becoming the first multi-ethnic democracy. Based on our population statistics, the number of whites are decreasing. And I think it's by 2040, they will be the minority in the United States. Well, how does a country where, essentially, the people who founded the country, white men, quote-unquote, I mean, not quote-unquote, but that's the fact, are, in some ways, shifting authority to others, whether that's women, whether that's people of different ethnicities, and can we make that shift in a peaceful way? Because, in some senses, those white males and their authority is being downgraded. So, that's the terminology that they use. There's less power, less influence among this faction of people that has always had power or influence. So, Sunnis and Shias in Iraq. There was a flip-flop there. We could go to Yugoslavia; we could go to any number of other places around the world. And when a faction of people has been downgraded, they protest. And if they don't get their way through protest, oftentimes, it turns to violence. And so, these political scientists, I'm listening to these two books, Steve, and they just term, after term, after term is putting words and language to things that I'm experiencing, that are really, really, really important. So, to your point, looking at some sociology, and that's part of the challenge of what we do, is that you can look at leadership through the lens of sociology, or biology, or political science, or history, or philosophy. So, it's hard to learn everything, but there are just these incredible pieces of knowledge in political science that I want a degree in. I want a degree in political science now because…

 

Steve Kempster  46:03  

Me too/ I'd love to spend some time and do a deep dive in that. 

 

Scott Allen  46:08  

Yeah. Because it makes perfect sense. It makes perfect sense. In biology, a species will fight to maintain its resources. That's just biology. And so, we as humans, can we make some of these transitions, some of them that you are speaking of, some of these climate change shifts that will occur, are those transitions going to be done in a way where we navigate them with use of the word, “intentionality.” There's some design, and there's some thoughtfulness, or will we descend into some pretty dark places because of some of the other things that you mentioned? And it's worrisome. And so, I'm curious about that. I don't want to sound alarmist to listeners, but some of the indicators are alarming. Are we eyes wide open, paying close attention, and trying to make sense of some of those rapid shifts that are going to destabilize us? 

 

Steve Kempster  47:05  

That's right. As I'm leaning down here, I’m looking for a book that was recommended that picks up a scene there. It's called ‘Radical Hope.’ It was recommended, and it's wonderful. It's about the American Indian tribe and them becoming moved and settled and losing their sense of identity. But running through it in the hope is this radical hope. And the wonderful thing about the book, Scott, is the title is Radical Hope, but it never says radical Hope. There's never a mention; there's never an exploration of radical hope. It's just a narrative of what occurs, and you feel it. You sense it is written through the whole without ever being expressed. Things have got to get worse before they get better, but we have to have hope. 

 

Scott Allen  47:49  

Yes, I agree. It's such an interesting time in history because you have so many wonderful things that are happening: infant mortality rates are lower, and there's a greater number of democracies, according to some of the statistics you mentioned in our episode. And so, there's a lot of good. The number of wars, obviously. There's a couple that are big in our minds right now. But, generally speaking, there's not a World War, there's not a large scale. It's one of the safest times in history to live. And there are shifts occurring, and shifts on a number of fronts. And they're fairly seismic, whether it's geopolitical, an influence on the global stage between the United States and China. There are shifts happening there. Or there are shifts in, like I said, multi-ethnic governance in a country that maybe didn't have that. And how do we navigate those shifts well? So, again, going back to your work, I greatly respect it because you are trying to help people think intentionally. And, again, the word for me is ‘design’ some of these win-wins. And exist in a way that helps us move the needle and make the world a better place. And still, to your point, do well as an organization and as a company. And I have great respect. As always, sir. I love our conversations. I really do. 

 

Steve Kempster  49:10  

Well, thank you for the time. Thank you for inviting me again. It's a deep honor, and I’m very grateful. So, go well, Scott, and stay warm. I think it's very cold with you, isn't it? 

 

Scott Allen  49:18  

It is cold. It's very cold. But I hope to see you in Birmingham next December.

 

Steve Kempster  49:24  

Next December. Look forward to that. That will be great that you're coming over.

 

Scott Allen  49:27  

Yes, I'll be back at the International Studying Leadership Conference. I had so much fun. It's a great experience.

 

Steve Kempster  49:33  

It was. 

 

Scott Allen  49:34

Okay, sir. Be well. 

 

Steve Kempster  49:36

Go well.

 

Scott Allen  49:37

Bye-bye.

 

 

[End Of Recording]