Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott Allen

Mark Bowden - Is That a Butterfly?

January 30, 2022 Season 1 Episode 106
Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott Allen
Mark Bowden - Is That a Butterfly?
Show Notes Transcript

Mark Bowden is a world-renowned body language expert, keynote speaker, and bestselling author. Voted Global Gurus’ #1 Body Language Professional in the world, Mark’s unique GesturePlane™  system of nonverbal communication helps audiences maximize the power of using their own body language to stand out, win trust, and gain credibility every time they communicate. 

Founder of communication training company TRUTHPLANE®, Mark’s live and virtual keynote speeches and training prove invaluable to business leaders and teams from influential companies across the world including Zoom, Shopify, Toyota, KPMG, American Express, the US Army and NATO; and prime ministers of G7 nations. Mark has years of experience training business and political leaders across the globe on how to use their body language both live and over digital media most effectively for superior communication.  

His bestselling books on body language and human behavior, translated into multiple languages, are: Winning Body Language; Winning Body Language for Sales Professionals; Tame the Primitive Brain; and Truth & Lies, What People are Really Thinking. Mark is a regular instructor for Canada’s #1-ranked EMBA program at Kellogg-Schulich School of Business, and he is President of the National Communication Coach Association of Canada

Mark’s highly acclaimed TEDx talk “The Importance of Being In-Authentic” continues to reach millions of people, as does his own YouTube Channel and the weekly YouTube sensation “The Behavior Panel” as featured on The Dr. Phil Show. He is a go-to media commentator on the body language of politicians, celebrities, and public figures, appearing regularly on CNN, CBS, and Global News, and he is frequently quoted in The Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, and GQ Magazine.

A Quote From This Episode

  • "The day after Diana was pronounced dead, Tony Blair came out immediately to the public and coined the term 'The People's Princess.' And then immediately made an announcement with his very classic, open body language. If you compare that to the royal family, the Queen of England isn't just a woman, mother, and grandmother. She represents the country. In fact, she is the country. The law says that.  If she doesn't come out and say something, the country is silent. Tony Blair's ratings go up massively, the Queen's ratings plummet,  immediately, because one was there and open, and one wasn't."


Resources Mentioned In This Episode


About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

  • The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals with a keen interest in the study, practice, and teaching of leadership. 

Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate 

Scott Allen  0:02  
Okay everyone, welcome to the program hope you are doing well wherever you are in the world today. Speaking of the world I have a global expert. His name is Mark Bowden, and he is a world-renowned body language expert, keynote speaker, and best-selling author. He was voted global gurus number one body language professional in the world. Mark's unique gesture plain system of nonverbal communication helps audiences maximize the power of using their own body language to stand out win trust and gain credibility every time they communicate. Founder of communication training company truth plain Mark's live and virtual keynote speeches and training prove invaluable to business leaders and teams from influential companies across the world, including zoom, Spotify, Toyota KPMG, American Express, the US Army, and NATO and prime ministers of G7 nations. Mark has years of experience training business and political leaders across the globe on how to use their body language both live and over digital media most effectively for superior communication. He has several best-selling books, we're going to place those into the show notes. And his highly-acclaimed TED talk. I watched it this morning, I was literally sitting in my basement laughing out loud mark, the importance of being inauthentic continues to reach millions of people. And he has his own YouTube channel, the behavior panel, he appears regularly on CNN, CBS global news. And he's frequently quoted in The Wall Street Journal, Washington Post GQ, Mark, before we started, you mentioned your son. And I'm thinking wow, that's got to be difficult if my dad is the leading global expert in body language and truth-telling, because where were you last night? Jimmy's?

Mark Bowden  1:48  
Well, look, you can't do that to your kids. You got to understand lying and telling the truth is, is one of our most important social skills. It's a really important social skill to be able to be deceptive. And it's a very important social skill to be able, to be honest. And you just need to know where you need to do which one in order to function within society. And that imagine a world Scott where you told the truth all the time. I mean, people have literally made films

Scott Allen  2:18  
Yep! Is that Liar/Liar. Is that was that lie?

Mark Bowden  2:21  
Liar? Yeah, I think there's another one. There's one where somebody can't stop like, Well, I think no actually goes it always goes in the reverse, doesn't it? Like they have to tell the truth, which denotes that there is a strong need always to have the ability to be deceptive. Okay. And people tend to moralize around the idea of deception and lying and go well, you must never lie, you must never will Well, hang on, if you've got some, you know, if you if you're hiding somebody in your house from some genuinely bad people, and they come around and they say, Hey, are they here? What do you tell the truth? Or July? Course you lie in June? Do you want to be a good liar or a bad liar? Because you want to be a good liar? You want to be really good at it. So you are practiced at that. And you are as good as you can be at that. Now, it would be no, I'm better than the majority of people for noticing when you do that. Okay. Not perfect, but better than most people. Okay, and quite a lot better than most people, okay. But if I did that with my son, it would stop him from learning how to do that really, really well. He won't be able to function in society. So you can't do that with the kids. You have to give them that opportunity to show that they can practice being honest. And practice being deceptive is really important.

Scott Allen  3:43  
That's so interesting. It's such an interesting perspective. I mean, it makes perfect sense, right? It just does. Right, you're right to talk about this whole thing around moralizing. And then I want to kind of jump down to the discussion. But you hear that a lot, I imagine. Yeah. And even your TED talk was, you know, it was about inauthenticity, that there's a time and a place in a very real, human, biological reason why we are inauthentic at times.

Mark Bowden  4:11  
Yeah, so so the whole authenticity thing, actually, for me, became got mixed up with amorality as far as I could see. Because I would see people go around the planet going, Oh, you would be you know, you've got to be authentic, you got to be authentic, and they will go well, they're not being authentic. And they would get pretty, you know, and I want to be I want to work on my authenticity. And I think to myself, if we just change that for holiness, we'd have, essentially, we were back, almost kind of pre-enlightenment, with people having this moral idea of what people do, how they perform and how and I think it was because look, is as we changed very much to have a lot of freedom and consumerism, we saw the churches across the world. You No reduce their population, essentially, their congregation. And just because, you know, the classic churches, reduce their congregation doesn't mean that people don't have a need for some kind of spirituality. And I think they found it in the ideal of something called authenticity. But it's a very intangible thing. You know, how do I know when you're being authentic? I simply don't. How do you know when you're being authentic? Well, it's a battle for you as well. Like, you're, you're grappling with the thing. So you know, just like, how do I know if I'm being holy? And how do I know if you're being holy? Well, you know, what religions did was produced some very strict books to go look, it's in the manual, just read the manual, would, there was no manual for authenticity, and so and so it became just this moralizing have to fit, I think, to fill a spiritual gap for people to go, hey, I want to be super authentic, you're not being authentic. And that for me just felt like people going I don't like you. But not being able to say, I don't like your behavior. There we go. I don't think you're being authentic. Well, it's the same with deceit as well. Augustine, St. Augustine wrote a number of treaties on lying, I think about 12 actually was quite obsessed with the idea of lying. Augustine said there were many, many different types of lying, or maybe it was 12 types of lying rather than 12 treaties. But anyway, he said, there were many different types of lying, all of which were bad. Okay, but somewhat better than others. We all know that you have to be able to be deceitful. And it's just moralizing when people go Yeah, but you should never lie. Like the course, you should. You should, of course, you should. That'd be ridiculous. Course you should lie. And you need to be very, very good at it. It's when you do it in the wrong place that people get upset, or, you know, like you belong to one social group, you know, or one, you know, nation or one political party, and the other side lie, and you go, Oh, they're really bad. But if you did the lie, that'd be all right. I mean, that'd be moral, if you did the lie. So, you know, we like to support the groups around us. And we tell the truth to support the truth that the groups around us...

Scott Allen  7:17  
Well so you, it's so much fun to even watch the behavior panel, I watched a clip of Alec Baldwin, one of the episodes recently, where he was kind of and I sent you an email also, I said, Hey, there's this really cool interview on YouTube right now with the former CEO of WeWork. And that's kind of an interesting conversation. When you work with leaders. What are some things some nonverbal cues and behaviors that people in positions of authority should be aware of? What do they have to display? To quickly earn trust are in favor? Are there some nonverbal cues that either derail or accentuate their ability to do so what do you think? 

Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's start with a really fundamental one, which is just being there. Because it's not that one of the reasons I've been so successful in this world of nonverbal is I've really tried to pare it down to the most essential things. People forget the basics, which is are you there? Yeah. I mean, how many times have you, you know, have you seen a crisis? Go on, you know, in any kind of situation, and you go to as the leader, where's the leader, and they're not there? And where are they somewhere very different from where everybody else says, Yes. And you go, hang on, what are you doing? What are you doing out there? Like, we're all here? What are you doing right out there? So proximity is one of our indicators of intimacy and relationship. And so if you are in social space with somebody, let's just say you're within the kind of area of, let's just say, kind of somebody's large living room, you know, within that kind of space, if you're in personal space, you're almost within arm's length of them, almost what I would call striking distance. If you're an intimate space, you're within maybe even kind of one and a half feet of somebody. And outside of that, you know, you're in a large living room with them outside of that. You're in a public space. Well, at least the CEO should be, you know, the leaders should be in public space. The situation may be in social space, maybe even within personal or intimate space. You know, wasn't it that Diana, Princess Diana was seen as such an important leader for all kinds of reasons. One of them was her ability to get into intimate space with the public. Yeah, and with and with a suffering public, essentially to get into that intimate space with them. So you know, space is important and often, you know, showing up in the right space is a failure for some, then within that, there's Are you open? Or are you closed? Okay, then that. And that's very simple to describe for me, I kind of go look, open body language is like when you come in from the outdoors on a very, very cold day, especially if you're in Canada, like me, very, very cold day and you stand in front of a warm fire. And what do you start to do with your body? Well, you take your coat off your jacket off, you open up that torso area, you're warming your hands on the fire. So you're opening up your hands, you're opening up, you know, the gap between your arms and your torso, and kind of letting the air get around you, you're more vulnerable, because you want to take in that energy and take in that heat. Yeah, what's closed body language? Well, you're outdoors, you're outside, the wind's blowing, and you tuck your elbows right into your torso, you hide your hands as well, you may be even you know, wrap your hands, your arms in front of your body, your neck, kind of your head shrink into your torso, and your neck disappears, and your shoulders rise. And now you've got that closed body language. I mean, I could fill it out a little bit more. But ultimately, that's as easy as anybody and as difficult as anybody really needs to know. You know, fundamentally, they look, are you in the right space? Right now, when does this situation happen? And are you open? Or are you closed? And my guess is, is we want to see our leaders open and vulnerable in an open to what's happening, not protecting themselves from that, but calm and assertive, and open in the space that we're in at that time. Anyway, I hope that makes sense to you, Scott?

Scott Allen
It does. It does. Can you think of some individuals that you've come across that do that? Well, that you view a tape of them? And you say, Wow, that? I know, you mentioned Diana, she's in the space. There's also an interesting, Natalie in the space, but she would spend time, right, she would spend time with the children and really immerse herself in that it wasn't a photo op. And then now I'm out. Right? That was my impression, right? You rightly what matters, right? 

Mark Bowden  12:19  
Right, yes. Time is part of nonverbal as well. So how long did you spend at that moment? You know, what was your rhythm within that moment? Did you kind of move and flip from element to element with that? Or did you spend some time with that? You know, I guess one piece that comes to mind was actually, Princess Diana, the day after Diana was pronounced dead was Tony Blair, who came out immediately to the public. And, and coined the term the people's princess. And then immediately made an announcement with his very classic at the time, open body language, very classic, if you...I guess, compare that to the royal family. And we can understand, you know, all kinds of reasons for mourning and such like, absolutely. But the reality is for, for example, the Queen of England that she isn't just a woman, or, you know, a mother and a grandmother. Well, she represents the country. In fact, further, than that, she is the country. The law says that, really, she is the country. And so if she doesn't come out and say something, the country is silent. You know, that's a really and so that had a massive impact on the country. Tony Blair's ratings go up massively, the Queen's ratings plummet, yes, immediately, immediately, because one was there and open, and one wasn't there. And therefore we couldn't see whether she or the country was open or closed to this event. So interesting. And we can understand all kinds of reasons why people did things and didn't do things, but the viewer doesn't necessarily understand those reasons at the time or want to know those reasons.

Scott Allen  14:16  
Well, okay, so we've got proximity, we've got openness. What are some other hallmarks of individuals who are communicating as a leader, I'm in a position of authority. What are some other nonverbals that communicate, openness, leadership, that authority that I have command of the situation of this space?

Mark Bowden  14:37  
Yeah, absolutely. So symmetry, so our brain favors symmetry in terms of looking for leadership because symmetry is easier for our brain to understand because one side is the same as the other. And the moment we set up with this pattern of symmetry, we start to understand that we don't need to look up both sides of the body because they're most likely now always going to be the same. So once you set up the pattern of symmetry, you make it easier on people's brains. Yeah, the literally less neural load in their brainpower, they need less brainpower. And the brain favors using less energy, the more energy. So if you're the type of person that causes my brain, to use less energy, neural load, I like you more than that person over there, who uses up extra neurons every time, every time I use a neuron, that means like, I got a, I got to make sure that I sleep properly, you know, to replace the calcium that went out of the neuron, at the end of the night, I'm going to do lymphatic drainage, it's like, and if that doesn't happen, it's like, man, you know, this is doing my head in talking to this person, I hope I get a good night's sleep, or I'm going to be in a have a disaster tomorrow morning. So symmetry is really, really important. taking up space. So So that's not taking up other people's territory. But using the full amount of your own territory, let's just say we got three circles of territory, okay, we've got what I call the first circle, which is your gesturing, you know, around your body with my hands never leave touching my torso, somewhere, my elbows never leave, touching. So it's quite closed, play, it's quite closed, it might even look like closed body language. But the reality is, is that I am gesturing it's not fully closed, you know, I haven't wrapped my hands around my body, my hands are gesturing, but they always kind of return to the body, while I'm not using up a lot of the space that my body could take up. And that would that will suggest to you though it's not necessarily true. But it will suggest to you that I don't deserve that territory, that space, or I'm worried about the risk of taking that space, and your brain goes, Yeah, but it's yours to take, like you, because the territory that I could take is right to the end of my fingers, if my joints are locked out, I would call that third circle. The second circle is where there's a bend in my joints. Okay. And generally, if I'm a leader, and I'm using most of the time, the second circle, you will find me a calmer and more assertive leader, if I use that second circle, and also if I'm symmetrical, as well, open body language, second circle, symmetrical. If I do those things, if you compared to the person who is going to be closed, asymmetrical, the first call, you are going to favor me now, because of this, because you favor me and you favor me at an instinctual level, this doesn't mean that I've got any good ideas, or I'm more moral than the other person or more intelligent, or I went to a better university, or I've got more experience, I'm just triggering your instinct to see me as a more optimal leader. From an instinctual level. Yeah, and many people say all the time, like trust you trust your instinct, even go, you know, these people have better instincts than these people, when all of them are alive, which means they've got, you know, there is this classic thing of like, you know, women have got a much better instinct than men. Well, if that were true, if that were absolutely true, then you would see a radical population difference between the two, you would see males wiped out of the gene pool, at a much, much higher level, much, much higher level. So, you know, we know it's not going to have an incredible variance that people want to put on that idea of this group have better instinct than that group, one might be more vocal about it than the other, that's a possibility. And then, and they're vocal about it, and we don't pick them up on when they were wrong. Because that would be socially unacceptable to constantly go, you keep on talking about your instinct, I've logged all the times that you are inaccurate. It's about a 5050 for you, like most other human beings, in fact, you tend to default to the negative you tend to be very optimistic about your instincts, which means just like me, you're alive right now. Because your instinct has to be negatively biased. You know, it's never going to be optimistic. You're just a bit more vocal about it. We don't bring it to your attention when you got it wrong. I'm not sure how I went down that line and what your question was anymore, but there we go. 

Scott Allen  19:47  
Well, you made me think of something because I literally have a dilemma that I'm going to experience tomorrow night. So I'm giving a presentation at a world-class organization, but it's one of these presentations. where it's hybrid, we've got a fixed camera on a podium, and I'm locked into a podium. Now when I'm presenting, I am using my hands, I'm using my space I am that is part of how my energy is expressed, that is part of how I communicate and connect using my space and moving around. So I feel like tomorrow night, I'm going to be kind of locked into this box right? Now I could perceive zoom to be that way. But actually, I feel very, very natural in this domain. So maybe I need to make the cognitive switch that really the podium is very, very similar to a zoom presentation. When you are in that context because I've watched you present, you're moving, you're using your face. Yeah, you were placed in a context where the person says, We need your mark behind the podium. 40 minutes. Right? How do you non verbally communicate? Is it again, second space? It's just higher hand gestures, voice,  eye contact with wherever the camera is? What do you think about that challenge?

Mark Bowden  21:05  
First of all, I wouldn't compromise.

Scott Allen  21:08  
Oh, you don't even put yourself in the situation?

Mark Bowden  21:09  
No, no, no, it means just ridiculous. Just ridiculous. So they've invented like many, many, like decades ago, they invented something on a tripod, that move meant you could move you didn't have to lock it off, you could move the camera around. And then there are people who make their living from moving that around. Now, why do you have to pay? Why do you have a device that means you can move a camera around on a tripod? And then people who make their living at that? Because it's better if that happens? Okay. That's just better. If it happens, because there you are going, you know, I'm the person with the content. You know, I'm the person who, and it's better for me if I get to move and better for that live audience, and what they've gone is gone. Okay. Yeah, but we got a, we got a TV audience as well. We got a zoom audience as well. And they must be served to Yeah, well, you can serve them too. But you get a camera on a tripod and you move that camera around, and people will go this is great. This is great. Because this is like, I'm getting that sense of life where my eyes and my eyes are the cameras now and it tracks what's happening by locking off the camera is everybody gets compromised, for the sake of a human being doing a job.

Scott Allen  22:32  
I couldn't agree more. I mean, I run. Yeah.

Mark Bowden  22:35  
So look, here's the thing. Here's the thing is that you turn up to these talks as a leader, and often the person trying to be helpful goes, Oh, yeah. Okay, so so there's the lectern. There's the podium, and there's the, and I'm like, Yeah, I don't need that. Yeah, don't need to show me that. I won't be using that. And then only trying to be out but if you comply, you know. So there's, there's the lectern for you to stand behind you. Oh, right. Okay, you want me to stand out, yay, stand behind that you can easily comply to their ideal of how it should be. And they have no idea. They just watched other things where somebody stands behind a lectern. And an opponent isn't. The only reason I'm ever going to stand behind a lectern. Okay, is that either it has the American seal of Office on it, which means I'm now the President, can I'm going to make the most of that? If and when that happens? That would be bizarre. Okay, because number one, I wasn't born in the US. So I just shouldn't, I don't know what coup de tar has happened. But how I've ended up there is going to be an amazing story. Okay? Because if Arnold Schwarzenegger can't do it, if I've managed to do it, that's gonna be just off the charts. So in either has the American seal of office there, or it's bulletproofed? there to there to stop you from getting killed. And again, that's like, why, why? What have I done, what has caused, you know, live shooters to want to take me out? So other than that happening, I'm not going to be behind that lectern. Because usually, it doesn't have the American seal of Office on it. It usually says Marriott Hotel on it. And it's like, why Hilton Hotels? Like why am I branding myself up to this? This terribly expensive coffee that nobody likes? You just say no, here's what might happen as well. They might go Yeah, but the mics on there? Yes. And you go and you go, okay, I get that go and get a radio mic. And they might go Oh, no, we didn't get one of those. Okay, and I will go Yeah, but it's on the description before we arranged this that you have one of those and they will find one.

Scott Allen  24:43  
Well, I like the mindset because I really am struggling with how am I going to deliver an engaging presentation in this space right next to 40 minutes. Now. Again, it's I think, in my mind, it's a little bit easier because the Zoom because I've done A lot in this domain, but even still, it's artificially hamstringing me it's an art and I could have probably you're exactly right pushback, been a little more assertive and less accommodating in this instance, and said, Look, this is going to be better for me. But more importantly, it's gonna be better for your audience are just as if it's going to be better for your audience if we can actually have this feeling like it's an authentic experience, because this hybrid, you know, we went through the transition of zoom. But now, I think I imagine you will be placed in this situation as well, where we're doing these hybrid experiences. And that just becomes more and more.

Mark Bowden  25:39  
Here's the thing is if it's hybrid, there's a group that has taken more risk than another group, the group that has shown up live has taken more risk than those that haven't. Yeah, okay. Now I understand, I totally get, you know, the group that didn't take that risk, why they didn't take it, or they just can't at the time, I get that, but you cannot create a level of equality, when some people take more risk than others, for all kinds of reasons. You have to serve the people who took more risk. It's as simple as that. Everybody loses. Yeah, everybody loses short. So we now got somebody who's needing to follow me on on a camera, they've got you've got to pay somebody. Alright, it's, uh, you know, what is it? What's it going to be? It's not going to be very much, okay, not going to be very much, it's never going to be what everybody paid for the awful coffee.

Scott Allen  26:35  
That's what I should have said Mark is right, I will reduce my rate by $25. For this hour.

Mark Bowden  26:41  
That means somebody for $25 on it on a camera. Yeah, or just that coffee is $5 A cup and it's horrible. I won't drink any coffee. I'll find some other people who aren't going to drink your horrible coffee. And they're there as you're saving. Okay, so look, you can't it's like this is you know, it's a kind of a political thing, that you can't serve everybody the same. It's just not possible. And when you try and do that, you make life miserable for everybody, because often trying to serve Pete some people better than others actually means that those others have a better knock-on effect, as well. One group took more risk to be there live in the room, if you anchor yourself to the lectern, they'll have a bad time as well, yes. And they'll be going, why didn't we stay at home and just press a button to watch this? Like, right? Here, you're right, on a plane, took a plane, do you understand all the papers you have to carry? Now, to get on a plane, I did that they didn't do that. And we understand why I get it, they can't or they don't want to or whatever I get it. But somebody did that point, there's a real kind of nonverbal inequity that happens, which they say I'm breathing the same air as these other human beings, I mean, the same living territory as them, this is higher. And I don't just mean higher risk because of you know, the health issue that we have at the moment. But I mean, literally, the brain goes, I'm sitting next to somebody, I don't know. Like, I've risked something, this better be for me, not for all those people who didn't take that risk. And I know they've taken a risk by going, Hey, I won't watch Netflix this evening, I will sit or this afternoon, I will sit in front of a monitor. And watch Scott, I know they've taken that kind of risk. But the two risks are not equal. And therefore you need to decide who you're going to serve better than others so that everybody feels a great performance. I just

Scott Allen  28:56  
I love even the notion because as silly as it sounds, I hadn't given much thought to push him back to being a little more assertive and saying, Look, you know, what, if this is going to be a great experience, I kind of need this, because what's gonna happen is my mind is going to be multitasking a little bit more, and giving that the cognitive attention, or just the energy versus just delivering a great presentation.

Mark Bowden  29:23  
Right? Right. And that that person on the camera, their brain's job is to track you. So you don't have to track into the camera. Like you just get another brilliant human mind to do it. They went to college to learn how to use these cameras, they had courses on how to follow somebody really well on how to be ahead of that person, and how to look at their movement and go, here's where I think they're gonna go next, to learn that pattern of movement. So they start to move with you to actually listen to what you're saying. So you know, I'll talk to the camera person during a performance and go hey, Come over here. I'll talk to the audience on Zoom during a hybrid performance and go, Can we meet over here? And the camera will move over. And it's like, wow, like marks moving me around. And the person on camera loves this stuff. Because suddenly they're a performer. They're an artist as well. They're part of this great experience. They haven't just gone. Okay, set the camera, lock it off, sit there and do nothing with the brain. So yeah, engage, engage, engage everybody. pushback. When I push back? Can people go? Oh, gosh, yes. That's a really good idea. We hadn't thought of that. Why would you? That's why I'm the expert. And you're, and you're not?

Scott Allen  30:44  
Well, okay. Last question for the morning. What have you been thinking about lately? What's been top of mind for you? What are some key questions that you're exploring?

Mark Bowden  30:55  
Yeah, well, it is what my biggest learning has been over the health crisis and getting on Zoom, working regularly with Zoom. So I train just about everybody at zoom. I certainly have been through most people who are already there. And I get all their new hires. What interests me about the video, is that we are primed to become passive consumers when we get in front of a screen, huh, yeah. And so even in a live event, you know, imagine Scott, you know, when you do that speech, you've got, you've got these people live in a room who are now primed, more primed to be active contributors because there's way more risk. Okay, way more risks. So they already value it higher. Yes, those in the room will be valued as way more than those on video can be an interesting experiment to do. Okay, put a little, you know, zero to 10, zero being least 10. Being most how well do you think Scott is going to be? Okay? Get them to do it in the room and get them to do it on camera, I guarantee in the room, they're going to rank you as you're going to be much, much better. Okay? Because there's way less, there's way more sunk cost, and therefore the value it more, they're not idiots, their brains going, I'm not stupid, I wouldn't be drinking bad coffee next to somebody I don't know, you know, during a hair mask, the mask, if this wasn't going to be great. The people on the video are going well I can get I pressed a button to get here easy and easy out, I can easily get out. Probably not that good. Okay, so that's really interesting. So one group are primed, that you are more valuable, and therefore also, they're primed to want to contribute more, be more involved. Okay, so every time we get on video with somebody, we're slightly primed to be passive consumers, not active contributors. So one of the things that I've been working on, so first of all, I located that problem, I went, here's the big problem, people went, Oh, yeah, we hadn't even thought about that. It's like, Well, okay, that's why I'm here. Because, because I, I thought about that instantly. And then I went, what are the techniques that we can use to trigger that video audience into being active contributors, rather than passive consumers. And the way we do that is to stop them from being triggered into antisocial behaviors and trigger them into social behaviors. So I designed a whole bunch of techniques in order to trigger that video crowd into social behaviors, rather than falling back into that antisocial, passive consumer behaviors. So for example, today, Scott, before we got on this video together, and we were having a good time, when we were like, you know, I was, we were getting warmed up for this conversation that we're having, you know, how much did I talk about your background? All the stuff in there? Yeah. And start to learn about your life and what I would say your value system, what you think is most important, by saying, what's that? What's that back there? Tell me about that. Tell me about that thing. And you're only too happy to tell me about these things that you've placed around you. Because my guess is is you you have jurisdiction on that and you've chosen some of these things consciously or unconsciously because it reflects what you believe to be most important in the world. Yeah, and as I talk about that, okay. And I accept those things. So you get socially bonded to me. I mean, if I'd have gone what's that in the background? Looks like Amelia Earhart doesn't know why you'd have that up there. That's a bit silly. Like instantly, you have gone...

Scott Allen  34:43  
I'm like "you jerk!"

Mark Bowden  34:47  
You know, but instead, I'm like, instead, what I do is to go hang on. What's that back there? That's that's interesting. Is that so that you can go Yeah, and fill in the gap. And then there's another one I go to, so I can't quite see that one. What's, what's that about over there? And you like, that's Miles Davis? Over there? Ah, really great miles. Fantastic. So I'm really accepting of these elements coming in, I don't need to agree with them. You know, I could go, I could go, I love that you got Miles Davis up there. I wonder what else you could have as well? Could you know where I could go, I love that you've got Miles Davis up there, I tell you who I choose. As long as I accept your choices, your nonverbal world, I can offer a different one, and go here and we would still get along fine. So long as you are going to be accepting as well. So, so look, I think, you know, there are good techniques that we now have for triggering people into engaging with another human being. And actually, you know, we started off earlier on a conversation about, hey, you know, we're meeting here rather than a coffee shop. And I'm saying, well, there are some big differences, important differences between this and a coffee shop. Is that in a coffee shop, I'd have never got to understand that you would choose Miles, Miles Davis, to be on display Amelia Earhart to be on display. What would I have seen around you? Images of coffee beans? In very horrible pastel colors? Probably. You know, be like, that tells me nothing about you. Yeah. So when we meet in this faceless corporate environment or valueless corporate in the coffee shop, why have we got on this wall? Why put coffee up? Because we value coffee? Well, of course, you do. You're a coffee shop? Of course, you do. But what else is important? Obviously, coffee. That's how you make your living. But how do you deliver coffee that makes you so when I see Amelia Earhart when I see Miles Davis behind you, and I go, Well, how does look? Here's what Scott does. But how does he do it? Well, I'm going probably he sees himself or he aspires to or does deliver it with a sense of, of innovation, a sense of maybe revolutionary, often a sense of like, Let's break the mold on. On this one. Let's do it a little bit differently. On the right, well, yeah, in the game. Yes. Yeah. Okay, so So, on a first meeting, I can already pick up on those elements there. I see you've got a butterfly in the background there's a butterfly, always one of those classic symbols, not only of beauty but of transformation, as well. And so again, I see you, Scott, and I go, so you know, I know what he does that how does he see it? But he probably sees it as transformational? Probably sees it as a development because why else? Would he choose the butterfly? Maybe he sees it as beautiful as well.

Scott Allen  38:07  
I'll tell you that. I'll tell you the quick story. Yeah. And then I'll let you go. Because I can take you through all of this. Yeah, sure. Yeah, my, actually, the chair of my dissertation committee gave that to me as a gift after achieving my Ph.D. So it was transformational and transformation. So that was a gift from John, which I've always just absolutely cherished.

Mark Bowden  38:36  
Lovely. Well, let me go. Yeah, cuz let me ask you a question about that. Yeah. Because obviously, that's very important to you, because you've kept it's a dead butterfly. When you think about animals, that animal is there. There are millions of those things around each year. It's like, I keep one hair. So so obviously, it means something more than a dead animal. Okay. And yeah, and you tell this story of I think it was John, John, you said, you know, giving you this as a representation of your transformation from you know, post-grad to a doctor which is a, that's a big effort on anybody's scale. That's a big, a big effort, because, you know, I've written four books, but ultimately nobody peer reviews. You know, they're like, they're like the publishers just like yeah, if it's done, let's publish it. Let's just go. Is it spelled relatively right? I'm like, you know, is it accurate? Possibly. Possibly, let's get it out. Let's get it. So, you know, it's a big move. But what I'm really interested in is, you know, when he gave you that because you kept it. Well, how did you feel, you know, when he went There you go. What was the feeling that went with that?

Scott Allen  40:03  
Well, it was, you know, I had, I had just incredible appreciation for how he had guided me through the process and provided this beautiful kind of balance of they call it what the zone of proximal development right, right challenge the heck out of me. But at no, at no point did I feel like I wasn't being supported. So for me, it was also representative of the relationship and the achievement and just appreciating what he did for me as a mentor, and as a guide, kind of through that process. Because sometimes in higher education, it's a very, very different tone that people take to that process. It's much more, you know, supervisor, Lackey type thing. And so in some ways, it represents relationship. Yeah, interests, because he was just incredible at building that relationship with me, pushing me. But again, I felt completely supported.

Mark Bowden  41:05  
Hmm, interesting. So again, by by, by looking at the background here, and just having a talk about it to what most people would kind of go well, that's kind of small talk, actually, what it's eliciting from your nonverbal back, you know, the environment is your value system, or what's most important to you. And, and, and we're able to talk about feelings around that, you know, because most people get into conversations about who, where, what, you know, the W's, which are good kind of interrogation questions as to you know, what is going on around, you know, accurate or inaccurate, but for me, the real meat of a situation is in like that, that went on, you know, how did that feel? Yeah, yeah. And then And then let me give you another question. If I may, I'm interested that, you know, you had this relationship that you kind of sang in the academic world, it's for you, it's a better relationship to have, but it's not kind of ubiquitous, you wouldn't get that everywhere, everywhere. What do you think it says about you? And I think it was John, wasn't it? What do you think it says about you and John, as people that you managed to create that relationship within the academic world?

Scott Allen  42:26  
Well, in my graduate program I had I was, I was lucky because I had another just incredible mentor, her name is Brenda, Brenda was wonderful. And as I expressed interest in potentially pursuing and actually she said, you know, you can do this, you could pursue a Ph.D., you love this work, you're energized by it, go for it. And she was actually kind of helpful in helping me look at and identify a couple of programs, one felt very warm, nurturing it, they were thinking about how to do that work differently, meeting adults, where they are, and letting them kind of fill in the blanks and really go where they had passion. And the other was this more traditional transactional, you're gonna have to figure it out, come down here two nights a week for four years, that's the gig. And for me, I knew that I needed that relationship, I knew that I needed a program and a setting and a context that again, was going to have a different tone to it. I didn't want white walls, I wanted color and texture. Right. And I gave him he gave me that butterfly I gave him we didn't know we were going to exchange gifts, but I gave him this antique compass. Because again, in many ways, it really represented him helping me in some ways tap into, because when it comes to this topic of leadership development, when it comes to the topic, communication is a subset of that, right? I have jet fuel. I have jet fuel for the topic, and he helped orient me along with the other faculty, right, helped orient me to tap in and go, right. And it's, it's lasted me 20 years.

Mark Bowden  44:10  
Yeah, it always strikes me, you know, that, that compass, the idea of meaning, you know, from the nautical term, the direction in which you're going, if you don't have meaning, it's like, you can have jet fuel or like you're all over who knows where you're going to arrive, you could arrive in a very bad place, you know, you could arrive in a really good place, but like that was a happy accident. What will the next voyage be like? So it's great too, to have that sense of the compass there to get the meaning to get the direction, but I wrote down here, you know, the thing that you said there that you put for me the most emphasis on was I needed that relationship, that relationship, and again, what I want, you know, anybody listening right now, to take into account is getting Scott to go I needed that relationship came from me going, is that butterfly?

Scott Allen  45:07  
You're doing it to me now, man!

Mark Bowden  45:11  
So I love it. And we couldn't do that at Starbucks. Yeah, we couldn't do that in, in most corporate environments, because those corporate environments have been designed to take away the social risk and make things. So clinically comfortable. But nobody will ever reveal anything of real great importance. And you'll never really know until several meetings down the line whether you can trust somebody or not. Okay,

Scott Allen  45:45  
So you have a white wall environment. Right?

Mark Bowden  45:47  
right. We've, this is, you know, ultimately, our first face-to-face meeting. Yeah, live face-to-face meeting. And I already know, from talking to you, and within this environment and hearing about your value system, I already know, ah, I think I could be pretty safe. If I was doing some work with Scott, I think he holds some of the same essential values around education and transformation, the idea of innovation and ideas, you know, pushing the boundaries, a little bit transformation is really important. The compass, the gut, you know, having good direction, not necessarily being, you know, entirely moral but not being immoral, but ultimately, but ultimately going, Look, you've got to have a direction. If you don't have a direction, it's going to be trouble. Yeah, pick a moral direction and pick up have a direction somewhere else, you'll be all over the place, there's been so much that you've revealed just by talking about your environment, if I'm open to hearing it, that I get to know very, very quickly that I could be led by you, or be in a team with you. Because there's something that resonates for me at a fundamental level. If we'd met in a coffee shop, and you'd gone Hey, Mark, did you think you'd be part of the team? Do you think you'd I would have had to go? Well, I think about it, Scott, maybe we should have another meeting because I've been surrounded by Pascal coffee beans.

Scott Allen  47:16  
And now he knows that I have a checkered shirt. You have. Yeah. What does that say about me? Mike, my checkered shirt right now?

Mark Bowden  47:23  
Well, I mean, I don't I don't know what the other opportunities were for you. But I was checking shirt, checkered past?

Scott Allen  47:38  
Which causes me to question. So real quick, as we always close out these conversations, I always ask guests what they're listening to what they're reading what they're streaming. It could have something to do with what we've just discussed. It could have nothing to do with what we've just discussed. So what's caught your attention or your eye lately, as you've made your way through the world?

Mark Bowden  48:01  
Yeah. Okay. So music-wise at the moment. I've got a son who's a musician, a great drummer. And, yeah, listening to what he loves, which is dirty loops.

Scott Allen  48:13  
What are dirty loops?

Mark Bowden  48:16  
Look them up Dirty. Dirty loops.

Scott Allen  48:18  
It's a band. Okay,

Mark Bowden  48:19  
Dirty Loops. It's a great band.

Scott Allen  48:20  
What genre or what might I be doing? today?

Mark Bowden  48:24  
It's Saturday barbecue genre. It's yeah, it's, Jazz/Funk jazz, from Northern Europe.

Scott Allen  48:34  
There's a wonderful documentary on drumming on Netflix right now. And I forget what it's called. But if you go to Netflix and just type in drummer, you'll find it but it has, you know, famous drummers rock and then they really move into jazz because, you know, that's apparently according to the rock drummers. Those are the real drummers. The Jazz drummers.

Mark Bowden  48:57  
Yeah. Rock. Jazz. Yeah. All the great when you go to the greatest rock drummers, basically they're being jazz drummers. Yes. stricter time.

Scott Allen  49:07  
Okay, Dirty Loops. I will place a link in the show notes to that. Mark, thank you so much for being with us. Really appreciate it. 

Mark Bowden  49:16  
Pleasure. 

Scott Allen  49:17  
Okay. 

Mark Bowden  49:18  
Bye now.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai