Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott Allen

Joe Hart - Our Life Is What Our Thoughts Make It

January 23, 2022 Season 1 Episode 105
Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott Allen
Joe Hart - Our Life Is What Our Thoughts Make It
Show Notes Transcript

"Our life is what our thoughts make it" - Dale Carnegie

Joe Hart is the President/CEO of Dale Carnegie Training, a company whose founder pioneered the human performance movement more than 100 years ago and has continued to succeed and grow worldwide, through constant research and innovation building on its founding principles.

Dale Carnegie has more than 3,000 trainers and consultants, operating in 200 offices in 86 countries around the world, impacting organizations, teams, and individuals. The Company’s client list includes more than 400 of the Fortune Global 500, tens of thousands of small to mid-sized organizations & over eight million individuals across the globe.

Since joining Dale Carnegie in 2015 as its President/CEO, Hart has initiated many important changes which have accelerated the Company’s transformation, including a global cultural and change management initiative called “One Carnegie” which has increased internal team collaboration and customer focus, as well as strategic accounts by over 200%; a successful worldwide rebranding of the iconic Dale Carnegie name; and a dramatic digital transformation across the company’s global footprint from nearly 100% in-person delivery to more than 75% online and blended programs in less than nine months (as chronicled in a 2020 Forbes Interview). In 2019, CEO Forum Magazine named Hart one of 12 Transformative Leaders in the U.S. 

A visionary, risk-taking leader, Hart helped build two technology-based companies, including an e-learning business called InfoAlly. In 2005, Hart sold that company and became the President of a new company he helped form called Asset Health. Today, Asset Health is a privately held and fast-growing education technology, health promotion, and training company that serves Fortune 1,000 companies, major health systems, and other large businesses. 

Hart holds a bachelor’s degree in political science from the University of Michigan and a law degree from Wayne State University. He is an avid runner, having competed in many marathons including Boston, Chicago, New York, and Berlin, among others. Hart is married and has six children.


A Quote From This Episode

  • "I'm very proud of how that all came together. And again, it goes to the team and their ability to work together and to be unified in a common purpose."


Resources Mentioned In This Episode


About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

  • The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals with a keen interest in the study, practice, and teaching of leadership. 

Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate 

Scott Allen  0:00  
Okay, everyone, welcome to the program. Thank you for checking in. Today I have Joe Hart, and he is the president and CEO of Dale Carnegie Training, a company whose founder pioneered the human performance movement over 100 years ago, and it's continued to succeed and grow worldwide. Through constant research and innovation building on its founding principles. Dale Carnegie has more than 3000 trainers and consultants operating in 200 offices in 86 countries around the world impacting organizations, teams, and individuals. The company's client list includes more than 400 of the Fortune 500, 10s of 1000s of small mid-sized organizations, and more than 8 million individuals across the globe. Joe is a graduate of the University of Michigan, he has a law degree from Wayne State University. He lives in New York, he's an avid runner, he has run Boston, Chicago, New York, and Berlin, sir, what other what are the gaps? Do we need to fill in about Joe Hart? This is pretty incredible.

Joe Hart  1:04  
Hey, Scott, great to see you. Great to be with you. And no, I mean, I just thank you for the very gracious introduction.

Scott Allen  1:09  
six children to I forgot that part. That's, that's a commitment.

Joe Hart  1:16  
It has been a commitment. It's been a journey. Thank goodness, they're all doing, you know, reasonably well. Although I guess that can change. Any day in time. It's like, you know how are the kids doing? Like, I didn't have to check. I think you're doing I think they're doing all right. 

Scott Allen  1:34  
Well, I joke sometimes with friends that we have three, so we're half of where you are. But I joke with friends at times, I say, you know, about 14 years ago, I entered a simulation, an 18-year/full-time/24/7 simulation to develop and test my emotional intelligence. And so and I've been in, I've been in the course for good 14 years.

Joe Hart  1:58  
Listen, that is very true. I think it's hard to be a parent, and not to develop emotional intelligence, because you'd be simply just miserable. It if you're upset at everything, if you're impatient, I mean, I've become a lot more patient since I've had kids, I'm happy. It's been a defense mechanism. Most you know. But I also would say, since you mentioned, my kids, I've been, I celebrate next month, 25 years of marriage to my amazing wife, Katie. So that's really a great thing. For me, the best thing I ever did was to marry her. And hopefully, she could say the same.

Scott Allen  2:35  
Well, I'm sure she would. And, you know, my wife and I talk a lot, because we're talking primarily about leadership, some communication today. But, you know, these last 18-20 months have been, it's been a leadership opportunity for the two of us with our family, just with our three children, talking about mindset, and how people think through the situations that we're in the struggles that we've had, and of course, you know, that's, that's with every family, but we very much kind of approached it as a bit of a leadership challenge. Okay, how do we knock this out of the park and make the best of the situation? And, you know, we talked last week, something you said, has just really, really stuck with me, because I think I said something to the effect of Gosh, Joe, this whole business model that you have in place has been upended in the last 18 to 20 months, and I was kind of lamenting a little bit. And you immediately kind of came back with you know, it's been such an honor and privilege to lead this organization during these 18 to 2022 months, I just thought that I said, you know, that tells me kind of everything I need to know about this individual. I mean, that mindset is really, really stuck with me. So I'd love to start there. What is it in your kind of looks at this very, very challenging time as an opportunity and as a privilege to lead the organization?

Joe Hart  3:57  
So let me start by saying first that, I wouldn't say that I always have, okay, I believe that the cultivation of a positive mindset, a grateful mindset, a mindset that seeks opportunity is something that I've had to do over time. And I'd also say that they're certainly in the earliest days of COVID. I was very nervous, very waking up in the middle of the night stressed and that type of thing. And, you know, I really had kind of a pivot point, but let me suffer maybe 60 seconds of context, even that led up to that. And I think it'll answer your question on my mindset, because, I mean, look, I was a young lawyer. And at that point in my life, all I wanted to do was to be a lawyer, you know, become a partner firm join a big firm, which I was I took a Dale Carnegie course. And it just changed everything for me at that time. And this goes back, you know, 25 years. So the desire I had at that time was just to become better but what it did was it opened up in my mind, you know, a vision for myself, how to relate with people and interact with people more effectively so it was a real game-changer. I ultimately went into business from law made a decision to leave the practice of law gained a lot of confidence as a result of that to crank the course and then ultimately started my own company. And that conference company I started was an E-Learning business in 2000. And our first client was Dale Carnegie, I had developed a program to help people apply the Dale Carnegie principles over time because I felt so committed to applying these amazing principles that Dale Carnegie developed in how to win friends and influence people and how to stop worrying and start living. So I had a passion for Dale Carnegie and a passion for helping other people. You know, my dad really had a huge influence on me about just the importance of service, and connecting with others in life is about relationships and growth. I ultimately built that company that e-learning company with other clients and McGraw Hill was a big client of theirs when we sold the business, and then started another business that became it is today a national wellness company called acid health. So I was the president of that company for about 10 years when I was recruited ultimately to become the CEO of Dale Carnegie. And I tell you this because for me, you know, to leave something that I'd helped start that I was the president of a thriving company, was a hard thing, but I love Dale Carnegie. And it meant just an incredible amount to me. And I came to the company because I wanted really to focus on building the brand, again, reaching more people, particularly younger people that didn't know about Dale Carnegie, because I really have a conviction that people can live fuller lives for confident lives, they get better relationships, they can, you know, overcome stress and worry and all these different things if they learn how to do that if they exercise different kinds of principles and approaches. Fast forward to January of 2020. I had been the CEO there for about five years at the time. We're a global company, she said, and we started to see what was happening with our Asia Pacific operations, particularly in China at first. And so we as you said, 200 operations. At that time, almost all of our business Scott was in person face to face, eyeball to eyeball in a classroom. Yes. And we had a North American operation that was live online. So what we started to see was our operations literally just started to close down because as lockdowns occurred in China, and then in Asia, you couldn't do in-person training. 

Scott Allen  7:16  
And as you're seeing it, you're seeing it in real-time as this thing is moving across the world, correct? 

Joe Hart  7:22  
That's exactly right. And so and we saw it coming into you know, so what we did was we created a global Task Force. And we said, right, we've got to be able to equip our trainers around the world and teach them how to deliver effectively, our programs live online. That meant getting them content and training and a methodology and a whole range of things. So we decided to really take me in and to do that. And we ultimately flipped the entire business model, as you said, so that within four months, we train 1000 people. And so even today, I mean, our business has been transformed into a humongous digital transformation. Yeah, but when we were in the midst of it, I remember one night in particular, I woke up in the middle of the night and I was just, I was depressed. I was down. It was March 2020. When we're starting to have lockdowns in the US are getting ready to. I have this book, How to Stop Worrying and start living. This is actually the book, I'm holding it up here, people can't see it. But I read something in here, that really changed my mindset. 

Scott Allen  8:20  
And listeners before he starts, it is dog-eared and there are posted notes, he held it up and heavily used. I'm just highlighting this!

Joe Hart  8:31  
It's the one I got in 1995. But yeah, but you know, imagine being in the middle of the night and just being down and worried. And I'm reading these eight words that can transform your life. And you know, somebody asked you a party, what's the biggest lesson you've ever learned? And he said, the biggest lesson, by far the most vital lesson I've ever learned is the importance of what we think if I knew what you think I know what you are our thoughts make us what we are our mental attitude is the X factor that determines our fate. And so that kind of got me thinking he also quotes Marcus Aurelius, who was the emperor of Rome, philosopher life is what our thoughts make it. So you know, I started to think to myself about the idea that every action in life you attack with every action has an opposite and equal reaction, and we're in the midst of crisis. So I thought to myself, That's just got to be an opportunity that I embraced that and it really changed my mindset, or really kind of, you know, I mean, I think my mindset was positive before but, you know, we have ups and downs in life. And that was a down point for me. And from that point on, you know, I led with I felt a lot more confidence. Yeah, I remember as a leader getting through 2001 After 911 and how just, I thought our business is gonna fail. And we made it I remember thinking about how hard it wasn't. Oh, 809 Yeah. And so those things, you know, that perspective gave me confidence. So, the long answer to your short question about mindset is that we really have to work intentionally, we need to look at our perspectives, we need to look at the thoughts that we have in our minds, and whether we want to entertain negative disempowering thoughts. And I actively replaced those with empowering thoughts. And that made a huge difference because frankly, our business today is better positioned than we ever have been, for the years ahead for rebounding very well. And I'm very excited about the future. And in some ways, I don't think that would have happened if we hadn't had the catalyst as me. And again, I don't want anyone to misunderstand what I'm saying, the pandemic has been dreadful. And in the face of tragedy, we still have to control our thoughts and think about how we're going to respond. And we've been able, as a company, to respond in a very constructive way. And I'm very proud, frankly, of our team around the world that 1000s of people around the world have come together, and resilient and agile. And it's just it's, it really is a testament to this organization, and what we teach.

Scott Allen  10:59  
I love the kind of origin story of your own experience with Dale Carnegie, the impact that it's had on your life. I mean, even as you entered the organization in 2015, you had a number of initiatives that you had really built in to help transform the organization. I'm reading about one Carnegie and strategic accounts are increased by over 200%. Successful worldwide branding. So you're already thinking big if we have this mindset. And of course, you are absolutely correct, we all of us have our down points in our points, but that North Star can make all the difference in the world. But you're also a big thinker, you are looking at this as an opportunity. And how do we better position ourselves for the future? So talk a little bit about that. I mean, what do you see, when you look at the future of Dale Carnegie? What are you working toward? I think that's such a fun conversation because you're already in the business working to transform, you that just is accelerated.

Joe Hart  12:06  
Turbocharged it, and we've been able to do things as a result of the catalyst, but then, you know, everyone might be subject to the same stimulus. And this is, again, something that Dale Carnegie talked about two people can be in the exact same situation, the same set of facts and one response, and this is happier, excited to take the opportunity. The other, you know, is not there, they're sad, or they always have a problem. So it's true. I mean, I have had a positive mindset. I think, for as long as I can remember, even as a kid I just believed in I just I believe that life is great. And there's so much opportunity in life. And you know, we have the chance today's the day to make things happen. So when I came to Dale Carnegie, it was with the idea that it's an iconic company, an iconic brand. And how do we take it to an entirely different place, which was the goal? And part of that meant? How do we get our teams working together more effectively, in our operations? And frankly, most of them were acting very independently, you know, how do we get people to really recognize we're all in this together, we've got a common mission, we've got a common vision, let's and we've been able to do that. And as a result of that, we were able then to increase our global accounts. Because a lot of larger companies, were saying, Guys, we can deploy over a global platform today, they can in person, live online, hybrid, and so forth. But the other part was the brand, you know, our brand, that there was an opportunity to really reactivate it. And the goal still is Scott, to reach a younger audience. But we did a global rebrand. And it's not just the look and the feel, it's all the elements around us. And you can imagine with different people, different cultures, getting people to buy in, that was a huge lift. But I'm very proud of how that all came together. And again, it goes to the team and the ability of people to work together and to be unified in a common purpose.

Scott Allen  13:52  
As you reflect on this experience of navigating, you've mentioned the team a couple of times, are there some hallmarks that you think through that you rely on when you think about engaging activating the team, utilizing team to help us navigate some of these? Because you're exactly right, you know, and no offense, but you as the CEO, or any CEO is nothing unless actually there are people, you know, behind you, literally or figuratively, or, you know, they might be bodies there, but are they actually all in? Are they engaged? Are they mobilized? And are they? Are they really passionate about making a difference? So how do you think about teaming? What are some hallmarks for you?

Joe Hart  14:35  
So first of all, I agree with you 100%, no offense taken. Your eyes are nothing without the team. And that team really is everything. And in fact, if you said to me, what, how do I see leadership? You know, leadership is really about activating the team. It's about it's about trying. It's about helping people become better leaders so that you can accomplish great things together, and I've had the pleasure of working with really 10 people, for me, the most important thing has been around identifying the best talent that we can. And he's actively looking for people and bringing them on. But frankly, it also means trying to create a culture. I think culture is such an important thing. culture drives everything. And you know, if you have a culture that is about micromanaging, second-guessing, criticizing, and so forth, that's going to attract a certain kind of person. And it's going to attract a certain kind of result, we have the benefit of Dale Carnegie, of having, you know, he's got this as our Golden Book. And you know, principles and our principles are around there people focus principles, putting other people first listening to other people, appreciating other people giving them respect, and so forth. And so we try to run our team that way. And I look at say, whether it's our executive team or our corporate team, the people that we that are part of Dale Carnegie, we really try very actively, intentionally to create that culture, which then attracts other great people, keeps great people and helps us achieve results that we're proud of.

Scott Allen  15:59  
And I mean, I think what's wonderful about that, also is that then they are also, I imagined that culture then facilitates somewhat of a co-creation of the vision of where we're headed, which then mobilizes others gets people engaged. And then we're more likely to succeed for sure. And as you think about the rebranding, before we went live today, you were talking about a book, that you're writing a book with Dale, Carnegie's grandson, is that correct? That's correct. Yes. So talk a little bit about that. I'm really excited about this because I think that's probably an opportunity to bring some of that, you know, I was in my office this fall, I've kind of been just cleaning out some of the old books. But I pulled out my literally kind of probably 1980s version of how to win friends. And I said, Now that that one stays. There's a big pile for recycling. But that one stayed. But I think you're exactly right. I don't know that necessarily. Today's Gen Z, or Millennials would be as familiar. So talk a little bit about that.

Joe Hart  17:01  
So you're right. They may not be familiar, and they may have heard the title, but I mean, so if we think about how to win friends and influence people, it is one of the best selling books of all time, it remains a best-seller today, at six years after it was published. He asked yourself, how is it possible that for decades, the same has been a best seller? And the answer is that it's not only that good, but the principles of teaches, are really enduring people embrace them, they live them, and they achieve great things in their lives. And so many people talk about, Gosh, this book changed my life. And another book that Dale Carnegie wrote was How to Stop Worrying and start living, which I think is an equally great book. It's all about stress, worry, self-confidence, and all these other things that, you know, really we need to get a handle on if we're going to be effective and happy in life. So you know, you start with you've got these two phenomenal books, you got the Dale Carnegie Course, which, you know, you look like a Warren Buffett, he'll say, Boy, that course changed my life. If I hadn't taken that course, my life would be very different. It's like well, that's, that's a good testimonial.

Scott Allen  18:01  
We'll take it!

Joe Hart  18:04  
back. You know, so many people will say that, but the barrier is how do you make these books that were written, you know, many years ago? Or people who may not be familiar with the course? How do you make these things more accessible? Michael Kromm is one of our board members. He's Dale Carnegie's grandson is a friend of mine for a long time. And we decided that we would create a book called Take command. And it's about taking command, first of your thoughts, then of your relationships, and then of your life, your future, we're focused on writing a book built on Dale Carnegie principles, with diverse stories from younger people, people of all ages around the world, that really we expect to be relatable to a younger audience, you know, what are the things that people are concerned about today? What are the things they talk about the situations they face, and so forth? So you apply these proven enduring principles. But what we want to do is to expose people to these concepts because we know that it can have a huge impact on their lives and their relationships. So you know, the sequence of the book is just as you're saying, it's, you got to take control of your thoughts and your emotions first, right? Because if I can't be good with myself, if I'm stressed and worried or negative, or I get a victim mindset, or whatever, that's gonna affect my relationships. So the first thing is, I got to get good with myself, you know, I've got to be I've got to put myself in a position to be strong and bold and resilient and confident, then, you know, I can give that down to people I can be in really healthy, enduring relationships with people I can, whether it's at work or family or community, whatever it might be, but that first section of the book realizing how to stop worrying and start living the second chapter or folk part focuses on relationships, so relying upon the best relationship principles maybe ever and how to win friends and influence people. And then the third thing is okay, so Scott, you know, you've got your thoughts, your emotions, your strong yet great relationships. What what do you want for your future? Do people think about their vision? Where do you want to be not just in five years, but in 50 years? You know, one of the things that many people who are getting ready to die are asked, What would you change about your life? And many would say, Gosh, I wish I'd taken more risk. I wish had been more intentional about life, my life just went so fast. Wow. So part of this third part is about challenging people. What do you want? What's really important? What's a meaningful life look like for you? And then what are the steps you need to go about so that you can achieve it so that you don't get to the end of life and have regrets? You know, this is, again, our view is, life is great. Life is an opportunity. Life is what we make it? And you know, let's really take command.

Scott Allen  20:40  
I love that because it's you are driving, you're driving, take command. How are your thoughts? Is your own shopping order? Next? How are your relationships? Are they help you grow, help you develop help you achieve greater things than you thought possible? Right? That's one reason you mentioned your wife, I love my wife because one of the reasons is that she challenges me to be better, she helps me be a better version of myself. And I'm so lucky to have that relationship because I don't know where Scott Allen would be. Not talking to Joe Hart right now without Jessica.

Joe Hart  21:19  
I would just I'd say the exact same thing. Honestly, my wife Katie has been a critical part of anything I've achieved in my life. If you said any what, what is the greatest pride in my life, even before beyond any kind of financial success or anything like that, or business success, it starts with my wife and my children, because I think ultimately, those relationships are so important, and I'm just grateful. And, you know, she, she's fueled me and, and I'm grateful for her. So when we talk even about taking command of our relationships, and how to win friends, frankly, because of Dale Carnegie's principles, and what I've learned, I'm a better father, a better husband, I hope and think I'm a better leader and a better friend, because of the not just the empathy that I've gained about how to interact with other people, what's important to the people, but you know, I try to respect people to listen to people to be a servant leader. And I think a lot of that comes from Dale Carnegie, it sounds like that's what you have. With Jessica as well. You are living the kind of principles that we're talking about. 

Scott Allen  22:19  
So trying, right? I mean, by no means am I have I arrived, am I the future version of myself that I want to be I even failed last night with one of my children. My wife and I debrief that this morning. She coached me, but I think that's there's that North Star, right? There's that North Star. And so I love the three North Stars in this book, you know, what are your thoughts? What are your relationships? And what's your future? And if you have those North Stars, and you have a general sense, there's a quote, I don't know who said it, but principles are like stars, you can't touch them, but they'll guide your way. So I think, as we navigate these different situations, I mean, as you said earlier, I woke up some nights in March 2020. And I was I wasn't sleeping I was, but you had a little bit of a North Star, in the words of someone who's no longer with us. But as you said, timeless principles can help provide that north star to guide us where we want to go. So how do you all talk about the future in the content? I know you're still writing, so maybe you haven't gotten to that part yet? But is it the future for just you personally? Is it the future for you? Is it all those different levels of future for your relationships, your work?

Joe Hart  23:35  
It is all three. And you know, we talk about mentorship and living a life of meaning. People can have whatever vision they have for themselves to have for themselves. We're not here to you know, judge people's visions for themselves. We do think that people often find meaning and contribution. I have said that, in my experience, you know, I've been involved in different charities, it seems like, no matter what I do, or even in the workplace, if I'm spending time with someone trying to help them, it just seems like it always comes back more, it's at least as much more than I gave, you know. So part of what that last section is around, it's around the future and getting better and really making a contribution. But I want to go back for a second to something you said because I think this ties into the concept of the future as well because you did something in exercise this morning that Jessica helped you with which is just said, you know, I'm kind of made a mistake. Do you know what I mean? And I think that's a big part of the future is having that level of introspection that says, You know what, number one, I'm not perfect. I should expect that I'm going to make mistakes. I'll do my best not to but I should expect to. And then the question is what do we do? You know, I had a conversation with one of my kids the other day, my daughter was having a hard time at work and she thought she made a mistake. And I said, you know, it's not usually the mistake. It's about how you respond to the mistake. There's a story two stories about Dale Carnegie one. You know, there's a man named Harold Hamm, who's a friend of Dale Carnegie's, and they're meeting each other in a hotel in San Francisco. This is back like in the 40s. So Harry is walking into the lobby and he sees Dale Carnegie sitting in the lobby in one of these big chairs, his legs crossed. He's reading the book. And here he gets close to him. He sees that both of Dale Carnegie is reading is How to Win Friends and Influence People. And Harry says, Dale, why are you reading How to Win Friends and Influence People? Dale said it, I need to read this more than anybody wrote it. And he talked about that, in fact, she kept a file like a Manila file, which I have in my office in Melville, New York, it's damn full things I've done, okay, he would, he would do the kind of introspection that you did, he would think about an interaction he had with someone it might be in a library in a restaurant, or whatever the case might be. And he would write down what he did. And then you know, what he would have done differently. So he was constantly thinking about that continuous improvement, constantly having that humility, which says, you know, what I this is, this is the process for me my entire life. And I think that goes to the Future Part. And that goes to what you were saying with Jessica and your kids?

Scott Allen  26:12  
Well, again, it's that 24/7 365 simulation to test and develop my emotional intelligence and, and again, leadership, I mean, I think I need to do a podcast at some point with someone about leading family, because there's such a missed opportunity if there isn't some level of intentionality around even what you just I mean, as a parent, right, as a parent, you want your children to be aware of their thoughts. You want your children to surround themselves with incredible people and friends who will build them up. And you want your children to think about their future. I mean, those are, those are timeless, they transfer to so many different domains. And I think oftentimes people don't think of family as an opportunity to practice leadership. What's the vision? What are we headed towards? What do we want to accomplish as a little mini team here, I often reflect about that, and not enough is really, I think, at least that I've seen written on that topic because we all have a practice field.

Joe Hart  27:15  
You know, this, this gets you back to where we started the conversation about emotional intelligence and the opportunity within the family, I find that it is far harder for me to apply Dale Carnegie principles in my house than it is. So Dale Carnegie's principle number one is don't criticize, condemn or complain. That's much easier for me to apply when I'm dealing with someone at work. When I walk into my 17-year-old daughter's room, there's stuff all over the floor that I've said 100 times. It's harder, and it is a laboratory for strengthening our emotional intelligence muscles,

Scott Allen  27:54  
Joe, I'd kind of like to begin to wind down with what have you been reading lately? lately? What have you been consuming, listening to what's caught your attention in recent months? And it could have something to do with what we've just discussed? Maybe not. But what's been on your radar that's kind of transformed your thinking,

Joe Hart  28:13  
you know, there's an author, first of all, I am constantly reading I like in fact, sometimes I will give myself a by either a book or I have an audible Robin, electronic Kindle book. And sometimes they'll have all three, run, and I'll listen to a book. If I really liked the book, then I'll get it on Kindle and the audible and Kindle sync. And if I really like it, I'm going to buy the hardcover. So we'll send my shuffling the vector. But one author I've been reading lately, who I really like is Cal Newport who wrote a couple of different books. One is called Digital minimalism. And the other one is called deep work. The reason I was attracted to this author, I think, I bought digital minimalism first cash, you know, I was just really thinking about my digital footprint, so to speak, and the amount of time I was spending on different devices or screens or whatnot. I mean, I look at my kids, I'm like, Gosh, I wish they were spending less time on screens now look at myself. So you know, I've very consciously over some period of time, tried to I try spent very little time on my phone feel like it's unintentional time. I'll grab my phone, I'll look at something go to social media go to look at an article and it's just in. And this is what Newports talking about, both with deep work. And with digital minimalism, is the idea that we need time for solitude, we need time for personal reflection, we should and frankly, a competitive advantage for all of us can be the ability to think deeply but knowledge workers you know, you can spend all day on email going back and forth and email and processing stuff. And the question is, alright, am I really doing the most important stuff so he challenges people about where they're spending their time, encourages people to make tough decisions about technology and other things so that they can spend time where it matters more likely. on relationships time with our family and our kids and or others people in the community people in our office, so it aligns pretty well with Dale Carnegie. But it's very practical in terms of just saying, You know what? I mean, I told you that this weekend, I'm taking a few days out to go off-site to work on my book, because I need a quiet time to write I know, you said you do the same thing. But what are the other things that I would need to focus on at work that requires time? Maybe not to go off-site but I got it, can I put my phone on Do Not Disturb? Can I turn you know, the Send Receive thing off of my outlook? You know, can I create a block of two hours or something where nothing's gonna interrupt me and I find that fun is productive. It's fulfilling. It's not going from fidget to fidget or thing to thing. So that's one author I've been reading, and I really like.

Scott Allen  30:48  
Yes. One thing that we intentionally, the parenting has just been a theme throughout this whole conversation. But I think and we have to model this, how do we make the technology a piece of the puzzle? Not the entire puzzle? And are we modeling that? Are we getting outside? Yeah, we have a digital life. And is that a piece but it's not all-consuming? I have a personal bias that 20 years from now, there'll be doing studies as they did with the tobacco companies, these and all of this has come out already just the addictive nature and the damage that it's doing to any number of people really of all ages, right. I know people who are in their 70s that are online too much all day. Being fed whatever it is they believe, and I know people who are in their teens and before teens that are online too much. And that that minimalism and that is it a piece of it? And am I aware? Am I aware of when it's too much or when it's actually impeding on me accomplishing what I want to anything else that comes up?

Joe Hart  31:55  
Well, I just want just to build on what you just said, I think part of the question is, is the technology serving us? And are we using it intentionally as opposed to just kind of reactively when you said, hey, 20 years from now, people are gonna look back and say, you know, this is like the back of cups. They're saying that now. And in fact, that's in digital minimalism, when he talks about is how many companies social media, and otherwise have developed products that are designed to kind of keep us hooked. Yeah, they're not necessarily bad. I mean, there are many good things about those approaches, it just is that we have to be able to be deliberate about how we're going to use them. I mean, as opposed to just reflexively watching, you know, my guilty habit would be to just flip through the video after video and the little movie clips and things like, so I've stopped doing that on YouTube or something like that. Do you mean? Yeah. Like on YouTube? Yeah. Like YouTube just accused them up, you know? Like on Facebook, see, because all of this stuff, they know what you like, and what you won't actually give you more of those kinds of things. You know, I just don't think I need to see any more. Steven Seagal video clips.

Scott Allen  33:01  
The algorithms like wow, this guy really likes karate.

Joe Hart  33:05  
It's kind of like, why, you know, so there's another book I read recently called Think like a monk by Jay Shetty, which I thought was a good book, it's about and I won't go into all of it, you know, a man who was, you know, London. And ultimately, he left and went to India to become a monk. And he talks about what he learned. And I think he's got a good perspective on life. So, you know, I think it's important to always and I frankly, I read a lot of either business books, I find myself not reading fiction, I read either something that can help me and maybe it's a shortcoming. I should read fiction, but I also read, you know, spiritual books and things like that. Things that will enrich my soul, things will enrich my mind, kind of where I focus,

Scott Allen  33:45  
I feel the same way. Sometimes I, my wife will tell cuz she loves fiction. And she'll be telling me about some of what she's reading. And I keep thinking I should at least explore that. But there's so much on this nonfiction side that I want to get to, particularly because of the question I just asked you. And week after week, people are saying, Oh, I love X or I love y. And digital minimalism. Right. I mean, that's a topic that just naturally would be interesting to me. So then I find myself gravitating that way. Well, Joe, so much respect, because I think the principles that you're working with are timeless. I think the transformation that you are a part of within your organization. It's just admirable. And I have so much respect because I think what you're doing is to your point, changing lives. It's an organization that is dedicated to helping people live better lives. And boy, I'm in because we all need that.

Joe Hart  34:46  
We need to get you into a Dale Carnegie course got we've got one near you.

Scott Allen  34:54  
Well, I will put that in the show notes so that people can access what the resources are. And is there anything else that you want listeners to be aware of from Dale Carnegie perspective,

Joe Hart  35:03  
I mean, you know, one thing if they certainly people can check out Dale carnegie.com. So much of what we do is is the corporate focus to get a lot of white papers to go to things like your focus is leadership. We've got white papers on leadership, blind spots on powerful cultures on creativity, and a whole range of other things. There are free resources that are there, get videos and other kinds of things that people can access. So we really try to be a resource for people and certainly if they want more, they can take Dale Carnegie course we've got a whole range of courses that are offered online in person, hybrid, that type of thing. So it's been a lot of fun talking with you, Scott, and I congratulate you on the success of your podcast. Yeah, I look forward to hearing more.

Scott Allen  35:43  
Thank you, sir. I appreciate it. Be well and happy 2022. Good luck writing this weekend.

Joe Hart  35:49  
Thank you. I appreciate that. Great weekend too.

Scott Allen  35:51  
Okay, be well, you too. Bye. Bye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai