Dr. Tom Bateman is a professor emeritus with the University of Virginia’s McIntire School of Commerce. Tom’s academic field is organizational behavior, including topics like leadership, motivation, decision making, job stress, and teamwork. Tom was the founder and long-time director of UVA’s multi-disciplinary leadership minor open to students of all majors.
Tom’s career-long research interests center around proactive behavior (including leadership) by employees at all levels. Being proactive means much more than just starting a task sooner rather than later; it means thinking about the future and acting strategically to change current trajectories to avoid future problems and create better futures. With that definition in mind, he has been writing about psychology and leadership in the domain of climate change and sustainability.
Now semi-retired and living in Maine, Tom still gives talks, revises his management textbooks, and writes for Psychology Today, Greenbiz, and The Conversation. And he remains a devoted fan of his hometown Cleveland sports teams.
Connecting with Tom
A Quote From Tom's Writing
Resources Mentioned In This Episode
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
Dr. Tom Bateman is a professor emeritus with the University of Virginia’s McIntire School of Commerce. Tom’s academic field is organizational behavior, including topics like leadership, motivation, decision making, job stress, and teamwork. Tom was the founder and long-time director of UVA’s multi-disciplinary leadership minor open to students of all majors.
Tom’s career-long research interests center around proactive behavior (including leadership) by employees at all levels. Being proactive means much more than just starting a task sooner rather than later; it means thinking about the future and acting strategically to change current trajectories to avoid future problems and create better futures. With that definition in mind, he has been writing about psychology and leadership in the domain of climate change and sustainability.
Now semi-retired and living in Maine, Tom still gives talks, revises his management textbooks, and writes for Psychology Today, Greenbiz, and The Conversation. And he remains a devoted fan of his hometown Cleveland sports teams.
Connecting with Tom
A Quote From Tom's Writing
Resources Mentioned In This Episode
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate
Scott Allen 0:00
Okay, everyone. Good morning. Good evening. Good afternoon. Welcome to the fro nieces Podcast. Today. I have Dr. Tom Bateman and he is Professor Emeritus with the University of Virginia's McIntire School of Commerce. Tom's academic field is organizational behavior. And he's explored topics like leadership, motivation, decision-making job, stress, teamwork. He was the founder and longtime director of UVA, his multidisciplinary leadership minor, which was open to all students across all majors. Now, his career-long research interests center around proactive behavior, including leadership is really interested in proactive behavior of employees at all levels. And being proactive means much more than just starting a task sooner rather than later. It means thinking about the future and acting strategically to change current trajectories to avoid future problems and create better futures. That sounds like an important thing, Tom, for leaders.
Tom Bateman 1:00
I do believe it is. The more I work on it, the more important it seems, the more I see the real world.
Scott Allen 1:09
So, you know, we're gonna focus on some of that definition today. And I'm excited to really engage in that conversation. What do we need to fill? What gaps do we need to fill in about you, Tom? What else do we need to share with listeners before we jump into a conversation?
Tom Bateman 1:25
Oh, just real quickly. I did grow up in the Midwest and went to school in the Midwest. After that, though, it's been it was decades in the southeast...Virginia and North Carolina. And then not long ago, I sort of retired from at least from full-time teaching. And we moved to Chicago for a couple of years started a restaurant in Chicago. Really, there's our son went to culinary school. Yeah. And I, and he and his fiancee, now wife are managing the restaurant. It's been tough with COVID, as you can imagine, yes. It's getting great reviews. It's been really fun. And now just a few months ago, moved to Maine.
Scott Allen 2:02
Tell us about the restaurant real quick. What can you share?
Tom Bateman 2:05
Well, thank you. It's international street foods kind of upscale. I mean, it's not trucks. It's a sit-down restaurant. And it is International Street foods. There's a travel theme and an international theme. And the name of it is gadabout, which is an old word that means a person who travels from place to place seeking pleasure, ah, in Chicago, a neighborhood called Anderson. So thanks for asking,
Scott Allen 2:33
You know, one of my favorite artists, recording artists, is Edie Brickell. And she was in a band called The Gassabouts. So you should play some Gaddabouts and I'm very that'd be very meta.
Tom Bateman 2:48
I didn't think I would be mad. I did not know that. But your older listeners might remember. Or you're more Oh, mature listeners might remember a TV personality called gadabout Gatos, he was a fisherman. Yeah. Back in the days of black and white TV.
Scott Allen 3:06
I don't you know, I think I was on the tail end of that, or it was a little ahead of my time. The only thing in black and white Tom that I remember (I was born in 72). I just remember watching flipper and the Addams Family.
Tom Bateman 3:21
That may be the saddest story I've ever heard.
Scott Allen 3:27
Well, congratulations. So you, the restaurant survived COVID, which is saying a lot. I mean, that's been a very, very difficult year 18 months to open a restaurant period, but then be to make it through COVID. What leadership lessons did you pick up? Just even in that experience? Let's go there first because you're a leadership professor? Is everyone looking at you like Okay, your leadership guy?!
Tom Bateman 3:54
The best lesson for me was knowing the importance of delegation to someone who knows more than I do. And that's my son and his now-wife. So I just mostly get to enjoy being there and enjoying the food and the company. But credit for surviving COVID to my son and his wife and a great staff. People want to work for them. Wow. And we're not even now we're not having staffing problems like so many restaurants have had. And that's a really, to their credit. Also, credit to honestly the governor of Illinois and Mayor of Chicago for being careful in their policies. Yeah.
Scott Allen 4:35
Well, let's talk proactivity because this is your area of expertise that you've studied for years. And it's not an area that I've spent a lot of time on. So I'm excited to have this conversation and learn a little bit more about this space. Let's start with some baseline concepts. What do listeners need to know about proactivity? What might be even some misconceptions be when it comes to this topic?
Tom Bateman 4:58
Oh, that's a perfect place to start. Start, there's I think there's a lot worth knowing. But it does start with a major misconception. It's sort of a cliche to say I should have been more proactive. He, she, we, they should have been more proactive. And that usually means I wish I'd started sooner, rather than wait until the last couple of days, and now I'm cramming it in and maybe doing a lousy job. It is far more than that. And to put it another way, it's it is not just the opposite of procrastination. It involves a lot of what I really think is profound advantages. It includes both thinking about the future and doing something on behalf of the future. In some ways that the farther into the future, you think the more all else equal, the more proactive you're being, and it targets creating better futures, then what would happen if you did not behave proactively not procrastinating as an example, but it's almost a trivial example. They use comments, common sense to everybody. But it means doing something to change whatever trajectory you're currently on, or your team is on or your company is on, to try to minimize future problems and maximize future options and opportunities
Scott Allen 6:22
as you are speaking, and again, that if this is way too simplistic, just, by all means, say, Scott, you know, you're way off base here, but as you were speaking, I thought of the I think it's been attributed to Eisenhower as well. But Covey's quadrant, time management quadrant, the quadrant two, which is can I lead myself sometimes, to really, truly focus on that quadrant to that not urgent stuff, but important stuff. And if I spend my time here, it's going to help me be in a better place down the road in the future? Is it is that in the ballpark?
Tom Bateman 6:59
I'll make fun of that comment after we're done. Nobody else is listening. No, no, it is perfectly relevant. In fact, I'm really interested that you thought of that. It's true. Do most people know that I suppose a lot of people do. But it's one of all your tasks, you've got a million tasks that you have to do accomplish work on sooner rather than later. But you can classify every task as being either urgent or not urgent and important or not important. And ideally, Covey would say you want to spend as much time as you can, in that quadrant, working on important things when they're not yet urgent, so you can do a quality job. So I think that's really honestly, more seriously a really good thought. And may I add that I thought of Covey in an additional way, which is, so the book was what mid 87 habits of effective people. And the very first habit is to be proactive, and he calls it the underpinning of all the subsequent habits, wow, oh, is profoundly important in that sense, without meaning to sound critical. He said some really important things in that first chapter. But it only scratched the surface of what we've come to learn about productivity because usually, he talked primarily about how you interpret situations and think through them before you decide what to do. But it was mostly about a perceptual-cognitive thing and didn't really highlight the action, including the long-term action, and the need to keep adjusting strategies over time to reach longer-term goals. So it was good. It certainly made the point that productivity is much more than just that cliche, but it just was a start to thinking more deeply about the topic.
Scott Allen 8:47
So it's envisioning a better future, and then acting on and behaviorally putting that into practice ahead of time.
Tom Bateman 8:58
Exactly. I think that's not a small point. A lot of people are thinkers, but not doers. Yep. And a lot of people are the opposites. And a lot of people are neither. But productivity requires both it is strategic. So it requires genuine thought. Yeah. And it includes taking not only taking that first step but keeping after things and adjusting over time until the mission is accomplished.
Scott Allen 9:27
Okay. And I like that adjusting over time. Even if we go back to your son's restaurant, as you're, as you're observing. And as you're watching, I'm sure there have been 1000s of adjustments as they're getting the feedback loops as they're coming back. They're adjusting to what the data is telling them. Would that be accurate?
Tom Bateman 9:46
Totally accurate. And that's a point at which I might add without being critical because there are reasons for this, but the huge majority of behavioral research is very short term, and it's hard orientation. I mean, you can't bring in subjects to the laboratory and keep them for long periods of time. Yeah. Or if you try to do survey studies over years of time you lose your subjects. I mean, and you need to publish. So there's every reason just like everything else in life, there's every reason to behave based on short-term pressures. Yeah. But it neglects the longer-term considerations, fluting thinking through all the consequences of what we do and don't do. Not much psychology has focused on this longer-term territory.
Scott Allen 10:32
So take us down. So we have kind of some baseline knowledge of what proactivity is, what are some other elements that people need to be aware of when it comes to this topic?
Tom Bateman 10:43
Well, I will say I started calling productivity a class of behavior different from most behaviors. Most behavior is short-term focused rather than long-term focus. Okay, much behavior is done pretty unthinkingly? Yes, rather than thoughtfully and strategically. I'm gonna call
Scott Allen 11:04
I'm gonna call this episode "unthinkingly!"
Tom Bateman 11:09
I don't know if that's a gerund or an adjective or what?
Scott Allen 11:13
I love the word though.
Tom Bateman 11:14
Okay. Okay. But I agree with you
Scott Allen 11:17
like a lot of the day, we're on autopilot, it's automaticity. It's not necessarily thought through intentional behavior. I see that a lot in a lot of my activities around developing leaders, where we can literally finish discussing a topic, move into activity. And the defaults take back over.
Tom Bateman 11:37
Right. Yes, yes. Great comment. And to continue with your question about how is it different, so much of what we do is just staying on a current path or sticking with the status quo. Yep. Or trying to stay out of trouble, not taking risks, etc, etc, productivity involves leaving the current path, challenging the status quo, taking some risks. And by the way, productivity also is attempt it does create change, unlike most behaviors, and one thing that implies is other people are going to resist it, at least some other people are going to resist the changes you're trying to implement. It's harder that way. It's harder than most behaviors.
Scott Allen 12:18
I've never thought of that. Okay, so proactivity requires you as an individual to change your behavior because you're in pursuit of this, this better future, a very simple example might be working out. If I want to be proactive about my health, and I'm thinking long term. What is it that I, well, that's going to require me to change my behaviors, if I want to be proactive about saving for the future, I want to have a place in Maine, when I retire, then I have to change my behavior, I have to literally make some sacrifices now in some way potentially, to live into? I'd never thought of it that way. But it makes perfect sense.
Tom Bateman 13:01
And by the way, saving for retirement is a great example of a long, perfect example of long-term behaviors. It's also the domain in which nudges have become popular to create the initial choice for an employee, for instance, making decisions about how much can you contribute to a retirement plan? Yeah, the initial choice options can nudge a person towards committing to automatic deposits every month, or whatever. So the nudges can, at a single choice point can create the path down a different path. Yeah, that will pay off greatly down the road. The extra challenge, though, is all those domains in which you make choices all the time. And so many of those choice points include temptations to not exercise or do not contribute to your retirement plan. nudges are cool. But there's this whole new long-term domain that we got to learn more about to keep people going in the right direction.
Scott Allen 14:03
Not only do I maybe have to change my behavior, but I might have to convince others who may not be happy with some of those decision choices. Right?
Tom Bateman 14:12
Big point. Absolutely. Right. Imagine you don't like something about, well, your a person's workplace opera person doesn't like something about the way his or her workplace operates. You bring it up to the boss, the boss doesn't want to do anything about it and have a conversation, or do you keep trying? Yeah, what if the boss is maybe the boss is indifferent? Or maybe the boss thinks it's a horrible idea? Or maybe the boss takes it personally, or the higher-ups take things personally? I mean, what if there's something important in fact that the phrase now the elephant in the room? Yeah, that people are afraid to talk about but should talk about major change as a targeted ProAction is highly difficult, often highly risky thing. And by the way, the bigger the challenge, the greater the chance of failure. And part of the risk is, is the defeat the experience of defeat.
Scott Allen 15:06
You know, Robert Keegan might call it competing commitments, I have a lot of competing commitments that are working against maybe that thing I, I want to stay safe. I want to maintain control. I want to all of these different competing commitments that that proactivity is kind of up against, and I want to reward myself.
Tom Bateman 15:29
Safety is a great point. And so it's maintaining control. Yeah, when you venture into the proactive territory, there, there's much more uncertainty, and feel a feeling of less control.
Scott Allen 15:42
I'd never thought of this. So proactive territory, even that phrasing is really, really cool. Inherently, you're giving things up, you're taking risks there, you're losing certainty, in some ways, the known/knowns, regardless of whether or not those are positive or not, at least, you know, and that's so interesting.
Tom Bateman 16:03
I actually thought you were saying you were taking us back to the Norwegian gnomes. That's not quite what you said.
Scott Allen 16:11
That would have been a hard turn!
Tom Bateman 16:13
You're a bridge builder.
Scott Allen 16:23
I never thought of the risk and the loss and the potential social challenges that come I might have to lose social capital. If I bring this up?
Tom Bateman 16:33
What if your cohort of friends are all excited about a certain activity that you've done with them? Do you decide it's unethical or somewhat ethical or terribly unethical? And you want to say something about it? Are you gonna go against that? And you're right about the social risk? Yes, he will. I think of it. Can I mention something else about your earlier question about what's worth knowing about this? When we first started studying productivity, it took on a reputation of being something of a personality trait, okay, that some people are more proactive than others. Okay. And we said a few things to that effect. In the original article, I want to highlight very loudly and clearly that that's a little bit defeatist and self-defeatist. It's like so many other things that are seen as personality traits, you're not stuck with whatever your natural tendency is, hmm. If you're an introvert, you can behave like an extrovert sometimes, yeah. And vice versa for extroverts, if you're an ES, TJ, that doesn't mean you're stuck in that cell of the Myers Briggs. Yeah. In fact, Myers Briggs, people want you to explore other territories, they don't want you to stay in that single box of their four by four matrix. Yeah, so it's the same with proactivity. I'm personally I'm not terribly inclined to be proactive. But there are times when it's important, and I'm positive. I'm more corrective now that I've really thought a lot about this stuff than I used to be inherent without thinking strategically about it. Yeah. I would tell I would say that your listeners about any personality trait. Yeah. Don't feel that you can't be a leader because you are X. Yes. On a personality scale. Yes. That's, that's an area for growth and change if you put your mind to it,
Scott Allen 18:33
when you've used the word strategic several times, which I also never would have acquainted with this word proactivity or ProAction. But strategic. So that implies some types of some type of intentionality. I thought through the options, I'm looking at the different paths we could take, and I'm strategic and what I'm choosing
Tom Bateman 18:57
Correct and you might, in some of your listeners might like the idea that it starts with what Kahneman would call systems to deliberative thinking nice, rather than more automatic, unthinking systems.
Scott Allen 19:14
There's that word again. What are some research findings? It could be yours or it could be others that you found kind of interesting about this space?
Tom Bateman 19:25
Good question. Thank you. It seems logical to start with the very first empirical study we did. And by the way, I've always been in business schools organizational behavior, is it taught in management departments? So our first context for studying productivity was the workplace, okay. And we created the first questionnaire to try to study to try to measure productivity. And the first one was, I think, 17 items, it asked questions about if I see a problem, I'm likely to tackle it. Okay. I'm more likely than other people to act on it. I excel at spotting opportunities, and I see them faster or more clearly than most people do. If I run into obstacles, I don't give up, I work to overcome them or work around them, I keep after them. Since that first study, a number of people in my field have done studies of productivity. And now just focusing on the workplace, the types of things that it's that the original scale or a version of it has been related to empirically include people's performance on the job. evaluations from their bosses. Oh, by the way, there's a qualifier there, some bosses don't want productivity, some do. But on net, especially if you manage the risks, that net of productivity tends to be positive on net, it's been related to faster promotions and higher promotions on net, it's been related to higher salaries, various measures of subjective career success, career satisfaction, etc. Proactive people are more likely to actively deal with job stress rather than passively hope will get through this. They take actions on their stress teams can be proactive to positive effect. I really think leadership in the form of trying to create constructive change, change leadership is inherently a proactive, yeah, endeavor, by the way, entrepreneurs, starting a new company is proactive. Oh, yeah, but not many people really do that. And the list goes on, at this time that mentioned now, as you said at the outset, and thank you for that. I at some point, I came to realize that a domain and maybe the domain most lacking in adequate proactivity is sustainability and climate change. Okay. Okay. So many decisions have been made over so many decades that have been driven by short-term reasoning and payoffs or avoiding costs, and we need more long-term, future-focused action. And that inherently is proactive. Yeah. And that's the domain of real interest to me now, talk about
Scott Allen 22:11
that. What do you see, I just saw a post from Greta Thornburg, I think it came across Twitter, he may have been last night the coal production is going to go up 22% In the US this year, or some something to that effect, that we can't seem to, on a large scale, a agree but then be live into some of these decisions that will benefit us down the road.
Tom Bateman 22:35
Yeah. And for God bless her and the other young people and the others who are swept up in the need and talking about this and doing things about climate change. Climate Action, in the lack of climate actions, fits perfectly. They fit perfectly with all the things we've just said more generally. Yeah, people behave accordingly. Short term, not long term. They think ahead a little bit, but not very much. Yeah, they avoid costs. Now, they go for rewards now to be an early adopter, so to speak, of the need to talk in a company about the need for climate action. And greater sustainability is often to go against the grain of the bosses, and maybe your maybe a person is literally alone and is thrilled to find the first the other person in the company who agrees about this being important. So it's all the same things operating there. I, what strikes me to add work being worth adding is there's so much binary thinking either-or thinking yes, people either for the longest time, and some things are cheap, by the way, there's a lot of good news going on these days. There really is. Yeah. But you mentioned that cold statistic, there's a lot of statistics indicating we're not nearly on track to hit the 2050 goals that are set globally and internationally. And we certainly need more. Part of the problem has been I either believe in climate change, right? Don't Yeah. Or I either agree with taking action, or I don't, it's not up to me, it's up to them to do something about it. The United States has been a bigger contributor than most countries, but they have to do their equal share to us. And when in fact, there need to be all kinds of gradations and qualifiers and real fairness is not everybody doing the same thing? Yeah, by the way, a lot of people are all about mitigation. But I'm not going to bother with adaptation. I'll devote myself to this. But of course, both are needed. And that list goes on. Here's another one. The need for individual actions versus a need for systemic actions. Hmm. It's a systems thing, not a personal thing. Well, we really need system change, but we wouldn't do very well if there wasn't system change, but every individual did more. But a lot of those individuals see it as unfair and rather than fair, they're giving
Scott Allen 25:01
up. Again, even at that individual level, maybe it's just convenience, maybe price, to make that individual decision to be proactive in being individually responsible about climate change, let's just take that I have to make some decisions about what I buy, what products I support, they may cost more, I might have to inconvenience myself by purchasing a composting system and actually engaging in that. So it's interesting because you're right, it goes back to, I may lose something, I may have to give something up, I might have to risk a way of being or putting myself out there. If I voiced this within my family, hey, I think we should start recycling, ah, you tree hugger, blah, blah, blah, well, all of a sudden, I might face something like that. Right?
Tom Bateman 25:56
Absolutely. Everything you just said is, is it that same framework of reasons why people don't behave with long term interests adequately in mind, by the way, as you were saying those accurate things, I'd start to back to the example about short term versus long term payoffs for end costs. You know, there's a lot of you'll know this and a lot of your listeners will know there. So plenty of research says that monetary financial incentives and other rewards can change behavior, but they tend to change behavior in the short run, not the long run, climate action and sustainability is the rest of our lifetime, kind of a challenge. Yeah, extrinsic, manipulating extrinsic rewards, is not going to create the long-term sustained effort we need. Yeah, we're going to have to learn how to change climate action into a more intrinsic, rewarding pastime or pursuit. There's a lot to be learned in that arena.
Scott Allen 26:54
But it's really interesting, Tom because you said earlier and this really, I had a boss one time say, Stop doing so much, you're going to make us look bad. Yeah. Right. And so to your point, at times, you're going to come across people, organizations, institutions, governments, where it's not in their best interest, they don't want you to be proactive, they're gonna do everything they can to squelch that. They don't want it. Right. And that's just another fractal from, you know, a relationship of two to sometimes a nation-state.
Tom Bateman 27:30
Yeah, good comment, another fractal that prompts me to say, they add a couple more things on your point. One is, again, you in many of your listeners will know the concept of self-efficacy. Yeah, people ceiling, unable to make a difference holds back climate action, I'm just one person, it's well worth highlighting that efficacy can grow. I don't know fractally is the right word. But the more the exponent really exponentially the right word, by turning individual action into collective action, power, and numbers regarding climate action, for sure. Whatever a person's personal interest in climate action might be taken, find others with the same entrance and magnify their potential impact, by the way, that pertains to working at your place of work and finding like-minded co-workers to start initiatives in companies and another the other sectors and if organizations, more organizations banded together and sectorally, including cross-culturally, the power of would magnify and get in, get out the voting thing is another example. Yeah, Major, crucial example.
Scott Allen 28:39
I'm going to put some links to resources in the show notes. as we wind down this conversation, are there any resources that you want listeners to be aware of? When it comes to this topic of productivity?
Tom Bateman 28:54
There is a very good and useful book, especially focused on the workplace, called proactivity. In organizations call and Making Things Happen at Work, and it's night 2017, Sharon Parker, and Uta Bindl are the editors. I'll mention, really, productivity has not reached much of an audience yet. Oh, there's not a lot. But that one is square on the topic out. You mentioned that I write for Psychology Today. And I've got a number of pieces in there. By the way, the name of the blog is getting proactive. Good. So so that fits your question. Well, yeah, well, I think of it on the topic of climate action and climate change and what you were saying about the entrenched interests and it's a sociological and behavioral challenge more than it is a scientific and engineering challenge. Yeah. And Michael Mann an esteemed climate scientist has a new book out called The New Climate War. And he is he's a technical deep, classic scientist, empiricist. He knows it to an infinite level. But this book is about the social and political challenge of the entrenched interests, the social conflict of climate action. He could be a behavioral scientist and a sociologist. If you put your mind to it, not just the climate scientist, I really recommend that book for place play, think about places to act. And now one more, there's a project drawdown, look, look that up on online, they've got a brand new document out about all the many, many possibilities in the workplace. If you want to go to work, find like-minded colleagues, and start initiatives in the workplace, check out project drawdown
Scott Allen 30:44
Great. Well, in your neck of the woods, I have a former student, and she's at a large energy company, from your neck of the woods. And she was here in Cleveland working for them. And she started all of their initiatives around sustainability. She just really made a difference and initiatives blossomed within this organization. And by no means is a perfect, but it's a great example of one person with a passion, making a difference, that now is an organizational priority in a very, very different way than it was a few years ago. Spectacular right..
Tom Bateman 31:27
And by the way, that's a great example of not needing an extrinsic incentive. So much as intrinsic, we'll use the word passion. But another angle on that from like, the literature perspective is intrinsic reasons to do these things. Yes.
Scott Allen 31:44
Yep. Real quick, Tom, what have you been reading, watching or listening to or streaming that's caught your eye just in a general sense, it doesn't have to have anything to do with what we've been discussing.
Tom Bateman 31:56
I mentioned Mike Mann's kook. Adam Grant is a great organizational behavior person, a recent book of his called Think again, yes, I would recommend that to about close-mindedness and the need to rethink once you have an opinion, it's okay to rethink and maybe come up with a different opinion. Yes. I'm about to read. I just bought Uncharted: How to Navigate the Future by Margaret Heffernan. I've yet to read it but navigating the future in uncharted territory. That's a big challenge and part of effective proactivity. Yeah, so I look forward to reading that. Oh, and I guess one more I mentioned is just today, I read an article, Jane Goodall has a new book out. Oh, and I'm not sure the name of it. But in the article, I saw that she has a podcast called Hopecast, okay. And she says, You know, I'm talking, I've been talking about productivities. That is talking about changing one's behavior. And changing one's way of thinking to become more future-minded, and to be both a thinker and a doer. She gets really down Jane Goodall does about, obviously, species extinction, but also like the pandemics and in climate change, generally. And she just, she's just really discouraged, like, so many of us are, none of these huge things are making enough of a difference in the way humans act. She says people have to change from within. And I do think a person can help another person change but the within part of it is essential, especially for the long term, her podcast called Hope cast, as I said, hope she knows this hope is not enough, though. Hope can easily lead to passivity. Yeah, the next round of politicians will do what needs to be done. He doesn't mean that as a passive thing, I'm sure but it requires both the right perspective and strategic action,
Scott Allen 33:51
that mindset of having hope, and we haven't discovered it yet. But then also that action component is so critical.
Tom Bateman 34:00
And by the way, there's I've not seen literature research on this, but I'll bet you anything that to take to get more immersed in climate action, can go a long way toward helping what they call eco-anxiety, to be to do something about it. Rather than just fret about it can be very stress relieving and not telling people who are burned out to work harder by telling people who aren't contributing what they could be that to do that could be really helpful from an anxiety and stress and defeatist standpoint.
Scott Allen 34:39
Well, Tom, I am so thankful that we've had this conversation, you've opened my mind to a whole new realm, literally about a word that I had not thought of deeply. And I'm so thankful for that because like so many things, it's this whole world, and there's so much that's going on in that world. And it's just a fun conversation because to your point, I mean, we've used words like long-term future risk loss. I mean, there's so much in this world of that word. So cool.
Tom Bateman 35:16
Nice comments. I've really appreciated your comments and questions. He can I just thought of something that could bring closure. I started off by saying that not procrastinating is, is almost a cliche and trivial compared to the profundity of productivity. But it's not trivial when it comes to procrastinating on climate action. How's that for 360? closure?
Scott Allen 35:40
I like it. We will continue the conversation, sir.
Tom Bateman 35:43
Thank you so much really fun and please visit the Mid Coast Botanical Gardens. It's one of the top attractions in Maine. I promise I'll go,
Scott Allen 35:53
Oh, you will not be disappointed. It's a beautiful place. And the next time I'm in Maine, we'll get together for a pint and catch up.
Tom Bateman 36:02
I will give that serious consideration.
Scott Allen 36:06
I was trying to be proactive and...
Tom Bateman 36:09
All right, I commit. I commit right now.
Scott Allen 36:13
Okay, be well sir.
Tom Bateman 36:15
Thank you. Thank you. You too. Thanks so much.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai