Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott Allen

Reo Watanabe - The Evolving Self

December 10, 2021 Scott J. Allen Season 1 Episode 99
Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott Allen
Reo Watanabe - The Evolving Self
Show Notes Transcript

Reo is a leadership developer and researcher. His dream is to strengthen world peace by promoting leadership not only at an individual level but also at a systemic level. He teaches adaptive leadership using the case-in-point pedagogy in the U.S.A. and Japan. His research focus is on the intersection of leadership development and adult development. He is now pursuing a Ph.D. in Leadership Studies at the University of San Diego, the oldest doctoral program in leadership studies in the U.S.A. He is also a Researcher at Keio University, one of the premier universities in Japan. Reo is a certified scorer of Robert Kegan’s Subject-Object Interview and a trained facilitator of the Immunity to Change and the case-in-point pedagogy. 

Reo is one of the founding members of the International College of Liberal Arts (iCLA) in Japan. iCLA was established in Yamanashi in 2015 to educate future global leaders from Japan through an innovative liberal arts curriculum with a world-class Japan Studies Program.  

Before iCLA, he was Research Associate in the Weatherhead Center for International Affairs at Harvard University and conducted a comparative analysis of leadership development in the U.S.A. and Japan.

Reo has various leadership experiences as an entrepreneur. In 2001 he founded a digital marketing firm, Dentsu Razorfish (formerly called Digital Palette) in Tokyo and Osaka, and had served as Chief Executive Officer for nine years. During the period, he formed a capital alliance with Razorfish in the U.S.A. and served on the Razorfish global leadership team for three years. He also served on the Board of Directors of Cyber Communications, the largest internet media agency in Japan, and Fractalist China, a leading mobile marketing company in China.

Reo holds an M.P.A. in Leadership from Harvard Kennedy School, an M.B.A. in Marketing Management from the Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania, and a B.A. in Economics from Hitotsubashi University in Japan.

A Quote From This Episode

  • "In a sense, I was not mature enough to deal with the complexity of the challenge I faced as a leader."

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

  • The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals with a keen interest in the study, practice, and teaching of leadership. 

Connect with Scott Allen

Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate 

Scott Allen  0:00  
Good afternoon. Good morning. Good evening, wherever you are in the world. This is Scott Allen and welcome to Phronesis. And today I have we're going to be friends. We're going to be friends. We will I'm going to get into that in just a moment. I gotta tell you who he is first. So I have Reo Watanabe and Reo is originally from Japan. He has studied at Harvard. He has an MBA from Harvard and MBA from Wharton. He originally did his undergraduate in Japan, a degree in economics. He did his Ph.D. at the University of San Diego wonderful program at UCSD and he is teaching in San Diego. He's involved in a number of different initiatives. And he's a follower and passionate about the work of Bob Kegan. Ron Heifetz, Bill Torbert. And so as soon as I stumbled upon his website, and he's talking about leadership, and Robert Kegan and leadership and Bill Torbert, and as soon as I stumble upon his work, I said, I need to have a conversation with this gentleman. So Reo, tell us a little bit about you. And sir, thank you for being with us today.

Reo Wantanabe  1:07  
No, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, thank you, thank you for this opportunity. And I'm very honored to be here. Because, as I told you, I learned a lot from your articles. So I also believe that we share common research and practical interests, about leadership development from other developmental brands, which is also very important. And which actually, at the same time fair, I'm struggling with as a scholar. So how to how to elaborate the contribution of these theories for the world. But thank you, thank you for this opportunity. I'm very excited to be here.

Scott Allen  1:49  
Reo, how do you make the switch from economics to this passion for leadership? I think that is so wonderful because your mind is a very, very beautifully balanced place. You've got the soft skills of interacting with others and engaging others and mobilizing others and thinking about that work, but then that, that finance side of the brain and the economics side of the brain, what brought you to this topic is an area of interest for you.

Reo Wantanabe  2:19  
Yeah, thank you for asking you until recently, actually, until 10 years ago, until I attended Harvard Kennedy School to take a leadership course, I believe I was born to be a leader. And I have to be a leadership position, had been a leader because there are many reasons but I need to explore more deeply. So I don't know exactly what causes the conviction. But one of the reasons is that when I was a child, I moved around because of my father's business transport. Until I became nine years old. I moved transferred nine times and especially at the kindergarten, I transfer three times at kindergarten. Wow, that was a big challenge for me. Especially I really enjoyed kindergarten when I was a little boy, I was so excited to join kindergarten. And I enjoyed a lot that first kindergarten but when I transferred, I was bullied. Because it's not serious. Because it's I was ignored because I spoke a different language even different dialect, I had different stuff like this Nikki Disney stuff or something and that the town, they prefer anime character. So I was not cool. So I was neglected, I was I sensed I was bullied. And that was a kind of traumatic experience. In order to avoid being bullied, I need to take in church. I need to be in control. So I need to lead. I need to otherwise I have a risk to be bullied. So that's the kind of assumption that can be established at the south kindergarten, I couldn't go because I was afraid of being bullied. I think that was a big experience. Yeah, it traumatic experience, but it encourages me, to try to be a leader. And when I entered elementary school, I tried to be a leader. I try to be the kind of leader have had the naughty boys make a play date, as many as possible. And it worked. And I did across labs many times. And I did. I was a captain of the varsity sailing team at the college. So I ended up with the questions and maybe yeah, and getting back to your question and I went to business school, the late 90s to gain a kind of management skill to be a business leader. It was an inspiring experience for me because it was my first time studying in the US. And everything was new. It was the late 90s. So it was during Internet bubble economy, it was before even Google and Facebook

Scott Allen  5:16  
had would have been abuzz at that time, right. I mean, it must have been a fascinating time to be at Penn.

Reo Wantanabe  5:21  
Yeah, but we have the fool Amazon. And everyone, including myself, believes that the Internet to change everything. So we need to be an innovator of the change agent by using technology. So I wanted to be a leader in the field. So after MPa, I started, I founded and started an internet marketing agency to the candidate's leadership position, but my kind of sense of my focus is on kind of skills, technical skills. So I wanted to leverage the skills I learned at the business school. And I learned from our kind of leadership experience from childhood, I leveraged those skills to make my company successful. And it worked. And I survived during turbulence. And I observed a lot of kind of scandal, Enron scandal or going to 2000, I think, one or two. And in Japan, there are many big financial scandals as well, my competitors went to bankruptcy kind of within a couple of years. So it was a pretty turbulent period. But fortunately, I survived. Because I was, I wanted to be in charge as a leader of the company. That worked to some extent, but I didn't pay attention to social skills. My way of thinking was very technical, very strategic, in a sense, but technical. And as my company grew larger, and the number of stakeholders increased, it's getting more difficult to compromise, like expectations of different stakeholders. So I ended up kind of burning out. I but I couldn't say that because I want to be in church. So I want to stay in a leadership position. I couldn't come out when I ran the company for nine years. I burned out, I couldn't continue. So I need a break. So that was 10 years ago. And I decided to go to Kennedy School because studying in the US can give me a chance to move on. So I needed a sabbatical. But in the business, there's no such system. So I decided to take it by myself, and I went to Kennedy School, and at the Kennedy School, they have a lot of leadership courses. Yes, that's a year with

Scott Allen  7:51  
Barbara Kellerman. And Ron Heifetz and somebody again,

Reo Wantanabe  7:56  
yeah, you can keep going with that? Yeah. But I took all of their courses. But at the beginning, I was very skeptical, because I have been in a leadership position pretty much throughout my life. So what academic scholars could teach leadership? To me?

Scott Allen  8:18  
Well, in Reo, I imagine at this time, some of your implicit leadership theories were that a leader is strong in control, managing and driving forward, and strategic and focused on the bottom line. And at least what I'm hearing from you. That's probably what you walked into the Kennedy school with, is that that theory of leadership in your mind, is that accurate?

Reo Wantanabe  8:42  
In retrospect, yes, but I didn't know what leadership is. Yeah. For me, the kind of gaining a leadership position is not only a means but also an end. To some extent, that confusion caused me my kind of struggle and challenge, I think, as a leader, so I couldn't objectify what leadership is at the moment, but when I took especially the hyphens course, I was totally confused. It is a very famous course, it was one of the most popular courses, but still that there are several factions in the class, especially two factions. One actually three, the bomb faction is, is sort of confused a lot deeper. And another faction is those who hate completely hated Yes, the third faction is those who enjoy the experience, not only their own experience but also the group experience but all of us all the functions of all the factions are engaged. That's the point

Scott Allen  9:46  
yes, well and real. The episode after this one is a conversation I had yesterday. Ron Heifetz about Case in point so they're gonna hear some of your listeners will hear some of your stories right now. And my conversation with Ron was about an hour, where he's kind of unpacking some of his own thinking and his own processing about that work. So this is great. This is perfect.

Reo Wantanabe  10:10  
Yeah, this is great. Because I disagree. I, yeah, he's, of course, he's my teacher, I admire him, and I'm still processing. So that's why I decided to pursue an academic career, but at the same time, it is very difficult academically, academically, clarify his concept. I think it's it's Wow, this is great. So the point is that overall the factions, all of the students engaged. So I talked about I lifted a lot after every class, actually, my wife was tired of my talk was only about leadership, only about adaptivity, the only about my experience in the class. So and when I invite my friends at home, pretty much all the topic about his grace,

Scott Allen  10:59  
realized I did the seven days, there's an art and practice. Yes, yes. So I did that. And you're right. I mean, from whatever, whatever it was, when it started in the morning, 9 am. Sometimes we wouldn't be up until 2 am. Still, processing what happened in that room? These people were about to walk out, this person said this to this person, which I mean, you are so correct, that, regardless of where you stand on that spectrum, you are engaged and you are in, it was amazing because the FBI agent was just stalled, didn't know what to do. The president of the hospital didn't know how to intervene skillfully to help us move off of where we were. And it was just the dynamics was absolutely fascinating. So for you to have a course, that had to have been really engaging and engaging semester.

Reo Wantanabe  11:51  
Yeah, his concept is very simple. You start with leadership is not position, but activity. And the process, which easy, which is easy to say. But it's, it's eye-opening, it was eye-opening to me because I thought leadership is gaining start with at least to start with gaining a position. Right. But he No, it's not. Leadership is not coaching. Leadership is activity and

Scott Allen  12:22  
process, then you had to have been really, that had to have been a very big paradigm shift. Coming from where you were right.

Reo Wantanabe  12:29  
Yeah. Yeah. And he continued, you differentiate, you have to differentiate our leadership with authority, and from leaders without authority, what? So and also he continued adaptive challenges and technical issues, right. So that oh, all of my work was dealing with a technical issue. I didn't have a kind of paradigm about the adaptive challenge. So I focus on every time I faced a challenge, or I tried to deal with the challenge as a technical because I didn't have another option. Yes. Yeah. Because I, I need to be in charge. I need to be in control. So I need to offer. So yes. So that and, and getting back to the leading with authority and the leader leading without authority. This is also very eye-opening because dealing with also Ricky does not mean engagement. Yeah, because leadership does not position leadership, which also does not mean exercising authority. Yes. So that, because I believed, I believed I exercised their leadership. But in his context, I exercised authority. I didn't exercise leadership, because I didn't do this adaptive challenge. I only focused on technical aspects. So I didn't. I believe I had been a leader, but I didn't exercise leadership at all in his context. That's huge learning. But during the course, I didn't get it. I didn't get the point. I'm just totally confused because it's far off course, I know. I remember some statements. And those are kind of inspiring. Yeah. So I couldn't

Scott Allen  14:28  
internalize them. It was almost as if I think he has a term the zone of proximal development. It's almost as if it's a bridge too far for some that they walk in with this paradigm or these implicit leadership theories as to what it is and where He's taking your thinking. Yes, I think it takes a lot of critical reflection, a lot of processing, and some other experiences to continue, to work with some of those concepts. stops, because it is it's a shift for me.

Reo Wantanabe  15:08  
But the biggest takeaway from the course, at that moment, I was able to clarify my chatbot My challenge was for the company, because, oh, that was a developmental challenge.

Scott Allen  15:22  
So when you had to analyze your case, have you? Yes, yeah.

Reo Wantanabe  15:27  
Yeah, in a sense, I was in mature completely enough to deal with the complexity of the challenge I faced as a leader. That was a career, but I couldn't clearly internalize what each statement means. So after taking these two courses, and I asked him, I'm still confused. But I believe this is critically important. Confused, but curious. Yeah. In Japan, there is no formal leadership dedication, there is no such concept as adaptive leadership, even leadership development, because we, as long as I know that I confuse leadership with management. So it's pretty much synonymous in Japan. So we don't know about leadership is I didn't know at all. And we made many people don't know, but the leadership is from his context. So I want to promote this concept widely because this is critically important. And I'm from the business. So in the business period, there's no such kind of concept. That's adaptive leadership, because even at Harvard, how the business school does not teach adaptivity to shape Sunday school, so on. And I went to Wharton, why don't emphasize leadership education, but they don't teach other activities. I asked him and what's next, but I have to do it, and he recommended I take Kegan's course, too, because his surgery is maybe a kind of background theoretical background. Yes, his approach. So I took, I was fortunate to take his course because his course is not offered at the Kennedy School. Yes, he taught at the Graduate School of Education. I took this course. And not and after it, taking his course, I deepened my understanding about my failure, because Thailand is developmental surgery. Yes. And I was totally embedded in the facade Oda socialized mindset to comply with expectations. This is a kind of way

Scott Allen  17:38  
to this is stage three, right?

Reo Wantanabe  17:41  
So I was totally embedded in that spectrum, even if I have a kind of strong aspiration to be supported. But I didn't have a kind of clear mechanism to balance these two, as an expectation and my own purpose. I was totally confused by these two concepts. My challenge was a completely developmental challenge. So I think so. Yeah. So I was a mature,

Scott Allen  18:12  
would you agree with the assumption that someone working out of stage four, would be more effective as a leader than someone working out of stage two? What's your personal thinking on that question? How do you think about that?

Reo Wantanabe  18:26  
Are you interested in between stage two? And stage four?

Scott Allen  18:28  
Theoretically, could we say that someone in a position of authority, who's trying to exercise leadership, and you have an individual at stage two, or even stage three, would likely be less successful as a leader? Maybe not in the technical work, but as a leader of mobilizing others energizing and engaging others in the work that they would be less successful than someone working from stage four

Reo Wantanabe  18:54  
IPDPS smile says yes. Especially when we dealing with adaptive complex challenges. If I if we face a technical challenge, the technical challenge does not mean an easy challenge. Now, it could be very complicated. It could be very difficult. It could be very important, right? But those challenge does not necessarily require a high level of complexity and development. If we face the challenge, big challenge. We're important challenge we are currently facing, we need to be a more complex mindset, or we need to be the capable, objective mindset

Scott Allen  19:40  
thinking at greater levels of complexity to analyze what's swirling around us, right?

Reo Wantanabe  19:46  
Yes, we need to be aware of our own biases. assumption. So yeah, that's what I think. Yeah.

Scott Allen  19:54  
Well, because that's how I came across your website was you have this website about adult development and leader worship. And you've kind of explored the work of and I'll put that in the show notes so that people can access that. How do you think about that website? You highlight some of the work of Kegan. And then how did you get interested in Bill Torbert's work?

Reo Wantanabe  20:15  
Bill Torbert? Yeah, it's not natural because of the Eco site. And I'm still a technical person. So I want to make, I want to allow my aspirations, as a scholar, as a consultant, a business consultant is to make complex concepts easy, Torbert's framework is easier, kind of stereotypical, but it's easy. And I'm interested in his assessment approach, sentence completion approach, I'm a certified scorer of the subject-object interview, I believe deeply. So on I use subject, which I use the subject of duty interview for my research, as well to assess developmental stage, but it's very nuanced. I even use that interview for my coaching. And the consultation, especially I use the desert for feedback. Sometimes it's quite inspiring, works very well. But for some clients, they don't understand. So because it's very nuanced. It's very subtle. So even if I point out the subtle kind of shift or meaning-making mechanism of my client, they don't understand sometimes and some clients understand deeply. It's they said, life-changing. But Bill's  framework is more kind of stereotypical and easy to follow. And a global leadership profile, correct? Yes. And also Dimitris incentives Corporation test, which is easier to use for big sample research. Yeah. Research. So that's fine.

Scott Allen  21:55  
What is your own thinking on this topic of adult development? Have you stumbled upon any of your own insights that maybe Torbert or maybe Kegan haven't addressed or don't explore Heifetz doesn't explore I mean, even have you noticed cross-cultural differences in the work of Torbert or the work of Kegan or the work of Heifetz? Because like you said, in Japan, the concepts of leadership and management might be fused. They don't, they aren't separated at times and leadership education doesn't necessarily exist, there is what you said, or at least not to the degree as it does in the United States.

Reo Wantanabe  22:34  
That means corruption, Japan's collectivistic nation or culture, and the hierarchical, but collectivistic is better. It's not egalitarian, strong power distance. In that sense, it's unique because that influences leadership, a lot. leadership and followership a lot from the other developmental perspective, Japan has the advantage and disadvantage, because of Japan, Japan, after the war previous world and Japan, Japan, in terms of economic growth, Japan was so successful, the past 30 or 40 years, but the last 20 or 30 years the country has struggled with, with in terms of economic growth, but from the developmental lens, it's very clear, because we started from scratch after the war. So we share a common purpose common goal to get the rich to get richer. So it's easy because we didn't have anything, we could easily share the same purpose. So collectivistic culture worked very efficiently to achieve that goal, based upon the hierarchy, hierarchical kind of organization. So it worked. But once we reached a kind of one of the top, I think the country was complacent about accomplishment. So we lost a kind of purpose. But we don't have to be richer anymore. So that collectivist plants with claws, kind of common share the purpose. We struck groups, we lacked the kind of innovation to move on to the next phase. And that's one aspect. There are many others, but the aging operation is another aspect, but at the same time that hierarchical culture kind of influence emphasizes aging operation issue. I think they're kind of interrelated. interdigitated What else do you see about culture?

Scott Allen  24:34  
Well, let's say you're even starting to talk with colleagues because some of your peers in Japan are now running organizations or have for years, and as you talk with them about some of these concepts. Are they looking at you with wide eyes and confusion?

Reo Wantanabe  24:50  
I interpret other developmental surgery and adaptive religious concept in a way they could understand they can understand right because, as you mentioned, there's a cultural difference. So I cannot directly interpret, especially adult development or surgery, for example, other developmental surgery, consider it the socialist mindset. And we mean to be our therapist, also, which is nice. But that bio rate of value apart about the body because from the Japanese perspective, American people example American people are very independent, which is great. But at the same time, the flipside is a from the Japanese perspective, American people are very selfish because the independent

Scott Allen  25:36  
The notion of a "self-authoring" mind may be a little bit less, in some instances, clear as an objective.

Reo Wantanabe  25:45  
Yeah, it vibrates a little bit to some extent, common belief, or columbaria, Japan. But I think for Japanese, it's easier for Japanese to understand the port transforming mindset stage five, because it, it's, it's more kind of a cop, collectivism, it's more collectivistic, but much less hierarchical. So I use adaptivity. This framework, especially I focus on our authority relationship, because Japanese, especially Japanese, not only Japanese but especially Japanese, we need to deal with authority relationship, we need to be engineer authority relationship in order to move to transform your mindset. So that's, that's a challenge. But if I explained that way that people understand, if I focus on a socialized mind, you have to move up to self-authorship. It doesn't work because its bio rates come on the body. So in order to move up to transforming stage five, the mindset we need to deal with also, we need to be position, authority. That's the way I teach

Scott Allen  26:58  
in Japan. So REO as we close down, as we kind of wind our conversation down today. What have you been reading lately, or listening to, or streaming? What have you been consuming? That's caught your eye in recent times, and it could have to do with leadership, but maybe has nothing to do with leadership? What's something that's caught your attention?

Reo Wantanabe  27:18  
Yeah, that's, that's a great question to deflect on me to thank you for asking. I have to topic. Why is the I recently used quality BarryJohnson's Polarity Management? Yes, I think this is not so widely known? I don't know. But it's not.

Scott Allen  27:38  
It's not well known. In fact, I am having flashbacks as you hold that up. Because what is it from the night? Is it from the early 2000s? Maybe?

Reo Wantanabe  27:46  
Yeah, but he published the second book last year. So I frequently use this book. And protein management is a very simple framework. But I believe because we are thinking anymore, right? human thinking game or even adaptive leadership or adult development to deal with the subconscious, we are thinking animals. So we have, we cannot avoid using brain-mind. So I think polarity management gives us a framework to think differently, or think more complex because priority management is not about problem-solving. It's the framework encourages us to think about the overarching theme of the priority. So it's not program something. So I think it's great cognitive support for us to develop to the more complex stage. So I like this framework.

Scott Allen  28:48  
I will put that in the show notes, for sure. And the second book that you held up was called and I'll put that in the show notes for sure. For listeners, he has a lot of posted notes in that book. Yeah, a lot of ages bookmark. Yes.

Reo Wantanabe  29:06  
This is not introduced to Japan actually, yet. Whenever I use this framework, most of them are very impressed. So because it's easy to understand the complexity of the issue. So I like this. And another kind of topic news for me. Inspiring news was that William Shatner's Captain Kirk, yes. He went to outer space. I think, recently, two weeks ago, his comment after he ranted was inspired it his comment itself, it's not unique. Many astronauts, even Jeff Bezos mentioned pretty much a similar statement, but how they express how they demonstrate his transformation. He mentioned that this was the most inspiring experience in his life was something so he will not forget, I'm sure he will not forget, which means he will reflect on the experience throughout his life. So that's, that's a transformation. Yes. Right. So continuous deflection creates transformation. So I was inspired by his, the way he sets, and I was thrilled, completely. That's what we need. I want to go to outer space. But naturally, I can't but I hope my children want to go to outer space as soon as possible. And more children, many children want to go to outer space and other leading scholars or leadership coaches consultant. I want to realize a similar experience to clients to students. Not, of course, different way.

Scott Allen  30:55  
Yes. You could start a new company, Reo, that as a leadership program, because there's leadership, Penn had a program where they took people to Antarctica at Wharton, I believe that was a that was an experience that. So your leadership development experience can be taking people to space as a transformational experience.

Reo Wantanabe  31:20  
That's exciting.

Scott Allen  31:22  
I'll start that business with you if you'd like

Reo Wantanabe  31:25  
your entrepreneur to write.

Scott Allen  31:29  
I don't know that I've ever said this on the podcast, but anything has to do real. My wife and I went on a walk. It was on our anniversary. So it was October 19, and it's 5:15 am. And we walk out of our door, and Orion is right there. It's just beautiful Orion the constellation. And the Big Dipper is just over to the other side of the sky, just beautiful. And I looked up, I was wondering, Well, I wonder how far away the stars in Orion's belt are from one another. So I went on this little bit of a Google spiral. I couldn't find it. I couldn't find the answer I thought I was looking for because I ignorantly had assumed they were in a line. But one is I'm not going to get these numbers correctly. But let's say 700 light-years away. And another one is 1800 light-years away. And for listeners, that's 6 trillion miles or light year. So they're vastly far from one another. So anything having to do with and I collect meteorites, so I have meteorites that are 4.5 6 billion years old. So anything having to do with space or thinking on that scale? I absolutely. I love it's absolutely incredible to think that we are on a well, Spaceship Earth, it is cruising it. What is it 60,000 kilometers, an hour through space around the sun? So to see that. And there was a really wonderful show on Netflix for listeners. I'm not going to remember the name of it, but I'll put it in the show notes. But I believe Will Smith hosted this series, and it was about Planet Earth. But it was narrated by a number of different astronauts who to your point had had their perspectives shifted. They could look at Earth from that perspective. Right. Yeah. Subject object.

Reo Wantanabe  33:30  
Yeah, yeah. It's in psychology. It's, it's called on the overview effect. Ah, yeah. But I think it's a moonshot experience. Right. So that we need that experience to the project on our system or self, our civilization or planet. And that's necessary because we are, we are born to be global citizens. Right. So it's not a progressive liberal concept. We cannot live outside the space outside the planet at this moment, right. So we are born to be global citizens, but we are not ready for it. In a sense, but we have to because we are from that lens, many political agenda, important agenda, but could be reachable, but as a leadership consultant, for example, in this country, that the why the I, diversity, inclusion, those are very important, and I respect this country to challenge those complex challenge because, in Japan, we don't discuss those issue. Very shallow. It's not, for example, diversity means gender inequality. That's it. No racial issue we even though for example, leg, lesbian issue, so it's very difficult for us to come out as a Ha in Japan, equity, we emphasize equality rather than equity. So we don't discuss the kind of difference. I admire this country can us, or accounts, kind of the challenge about a complicated issue. But still, if, we recognize ourselves as global citizens, that issue will be gone. We don't have to. We don't have to care. We should not, we should care. But those issues should not be the issues if we really become global.

Scott Allen  35:36  
It's a fun conversation. Because, yes, I mean, will, will we as humans evolve to the point where we can be proactive in how we tackle some of these challenges that we face, that hold us back? That, and ultimately, for me, it's hold people back from being everything they have the potential to be in this world? And if we can at least provide that baseline for billions more people, so that they can live into whatever their purpose is to be here on Earth? What their life is supposed to mean? Can we provide that and we're not there yet? I'm going to have a growth mindset about that. I'm going to say we're not there yet. Real I'm so thankful for this conversation. I really, really appreciate it. And I look forward to more conversations. I look forward to meeting you in person and having a cup of coffee, or a beer, or a glass of wine in person. And we will continue the dialogue, sir.

Reo Wantanabe  36:43  
Yeah, thank you. This is inspiring to thank you for inviting me.

Scott Allen  36:47  
Okay, we'll be well. Thanks for your good work. If you would like to invest in the Reo, Scott, space exploration Leadership Development Initiative, please feel free to let us know. We'd love to hear from you. You know, it's just such a fun opportunity to meet someone with similar interests. I stumbled upon Reo by searching the internet. And I'd Googled, like I said, leadership development and adult development. And I came up with a site that he had created. You can find it in the show notes. But it was so much fun to speak with someone who's been through many of these programs that have changed his perspective changed his life, and now he's devoting his life to sharing this work with others. So Real, thank you so much for the work that you do. Thank you for a wonderful conversation. I look forward to exploring again with you. And for all of you listening. Next up, we've got Ron Heifetz episode 100. It's going to be a lot of fun. It was a great conversation, and I look forward to you having the chance to listen to it. As always, thanks for being along this journey be well

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