Jon Wergin has been Professor of Education Studies at Antioch University’s Graduate School of Leadership & Change since 2003, following a 30-year career at Virginia Commonwealth University, where he won awards for both teaching (1996) and scholarship (1998).
He was the founding director of the Forum on Faculty Roles and Rewards in the American Association for Higher Education in 1992, and continued an active association with AAHE until 2004, focusing his scholarship on leadership and change in higher education. He is the author or co-author of 18 books and monographs, 13 book chapters, and 64 scholarly papers, and has given invited addresses to more than 100 colleges, universities, and professional organizations on such topics as faculty development, evaluation research, professional education, curriculum development in higher education, evaluation and change in higher education, and department chair development.
His most recent book is Deep Learning in a Disorienting World. After nearly 20 years with Antioch, Jon moved to semi-retirement status in July 2020.
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Jon Wergin has been Professor of Education Studies at Antioch University’s Graduate School of Leadership & Change since 2003, following a 30-year career at Virginia Commonwealth University, where he won awards for both teaching (1996) and scholarship (1998).
He was the founding director of the Forum on Faculty Roles and Rewards in the American Association for Higher Education in 1992, and continued an active association with AAHE until 2004, focusing his scholarship on leadership and change in higher education. He is the author or co-author of 18 books and monographs, 13 book chapters, and 64 scholarly papers, and has given invited addresses to more than 100 colleges, universities, and professional organizations on such topics as faculty development, evaluation research, professional education, curriculum development in higher education, evaluation and change in higher education, and department chair development.
His most recent book is Deep Learning in a Disorienting World. After nearly 20 years with Antioch, Jon moved to semi-retirement status in July 2020.
Quotes I Enjoyed From This Episode
Resource Mentioned in This Episode
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
Connect with Scott Allen
Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate
Scott Allen 0:00
Okay, good morning. Good evening. Good afternoon. Thank you so much for joining us. This is for nieces. And today we have a returning guest. His bio is going to be in the show notes. So we're not going to spend a lot of time on that today. But he is at Antioch University. He is a professor. He was my dissertation chair. He's an incredible guy. He's a cyclist. He's a father. He's a husband. And he's an incredible thinker. And it's Jon Wergin. And so Jon, thank you so much for joining me again, for a really fun conversation about your book, deep learning.
Jon Wergin 0:33
Well, thank you, Scott, I have to I have to admit that when you give me a chance to be on your show, again, I'm going well, Scott must have gone through his entire Rolodex. And now he's starting over again. But it's a pleasure to be on again, thanks for asking.
Scott Allen 0:52
Oh, thank you so much. Well, Jon, I was admitting to you before we started, that, I'd received the book when we talked the first time, but I had not gone through it, you know, so we had a nice conversation about the book and about the work, I now have had time to really digest this work. And it's really timely for me, I'm working on an article right now with a colleague, Dave Ross, who's at the University of Illinois. And I think our working title right now is from mission statements to mission-critical. And that's really a challenge on a lot of the marketing techniques that our universities institutions are using with the word leadership. But are they really truly serious about developing leaders? And it's mission-critical right now? Because we need people who are as Robert Keegan would say, who are working at different levels of complexity, as they take on these incredibly difficult challenging positions of leadership. And so in our programs, are we talking Are we focused on helping people develop as Torbert and Eigel and Kuhnert would say vertically? I don't know that Keegan would use that language, but he would say, you know, developing through the stages, and are we also providing some of that knowledge around effective leadership? So I'm reading this book. And Jon, this is gonna sound so weird, but I was proud, like holy buckets. I even sent you an email, I think that had a passage and I wrote "BAM!" because this piece of Ernest Boyer is smiling in his grave, this piece of integrative scholarship is just incredible. You are weaving so many scholars, so many thinkers into this one beautiful piece of work. And so when I say proud I That's my dissertation chair. That's Jon Wergin! Go, man! So I don't know if you feel that celebrity when you walk around Virginia right now, but you should.
Jon Wergin 2:50
Well, thanks. That's it's a lovely compliment coming from a person who was among the best, most widely read people in the leadership field. I appreciate it.
Scott Allen 3:03
Like, Well, Jon, you just do such a beautiful job. And for listeners who have not explored the book, of course, it'll be in the show notes. But you do a beautiful job of helping the reader understand, to the best of our knowledge right now. How we create environments for people to engage in deep learning. And as you know, when you type in deep learning on Amazon, we get a lot of artificial intelligence type sparks in yours is there with the person standing looking at all of you know, whatever they're looking at in that powerful image? disorienting space, maybe that they're in such a beautiful job of integrating Heifetz, and Kegan and Torbert and Dewey, and Csikszentmihalyi. And you just have all of these scholars Mezirow of Brookfield that you've brought into this one space that I think all offer us clues. And then you're saying welcome Peter Vaill looks at it this way, and Senge looks at it this way. And so based on these pieces of work, we can probably assume X. Would you talk just for a little bit about your process of even designing that text? Because it's beautiful.
Jon Wergin 4:11
Oh, well, thanks. As I may have mentioned, the first time we talked, I had become really concerned about the nature of public discourse in this country, and this was in 2018. people engaging in what I call drive-by learning that is just cherry-picking information that happened to agree with their particular point of view, and then becoming further reinforced every time they see, you know, confirm it, they engage in confirmation bias, you know, and I thought there's a lot of hand wringing about this. And I'm thinking to myself, you know, I've, I've, I've been around the field of adult learning a long time. I think there is a way to think through how to deal with With this mess, and so I started doing all of this, all of this research and pulling together ideas from John Dewey, of course, who was my idol, all the way through to the most recent thinkers, Keegan, in particular, but also Torbert and leadership, scholars and so forth. And looking at this through the eyes of an educational psychologist, which I am, how can we take what we know about adult learning and how to enhance it, that could be in the service of helping people understand why it is so difficult to cross this chasm that we seem to have, in terms of particular worldviews. And so that's how it started. And I spent about three months just sort of pulling together these resources together, developing some preliminary ideas. Yeah. And, and then just went for it,
Scott Allen 5:58
you know, on page 52, because you do a really nice job of also what I really loved, I'd never thought of it this way, Jon, kind of what we're up against, so to speak, they do a beautiful job of helping the reader understand, look, these are some of the things the very beginning you kind of hooked me, okay, these are some of the things we're up against the confirmation bias, or my side bias, and some of the other factors that we're really going to have to confront, and we're going to have to navigate if we're gonna create this environment for deep learning, right? Yeah. And you're in the front part of the book, you do a really nice job. I was joking with you, before we started that, you know, it's bullet two on page 52. In the integrating principles section, I'm acting like a Star Trek fan a little too geeky, right? Remember that bullet, right. But you said, I'd love to go through a couple of these bullets and just get some commentary out from you. Because I think there's incredible wisdom in some of these statements. So deep learning requires a certain level of consciousness that routinely pays attention to feelings, especially feelings of disorientation. Those who learn deeply have learned to follow that disorientation. So this is a version of metacognition, right? Yes. But I'm looking at that feeling as something to spark curiosity into explore. And of course, you bring Kahneman into this Thinking Fast and Slow. Am I accurate in saying that, maybe, then that's an opportunity for a type two, and maybe you would define type two?
Jon Wergin 7:34
That's exactly that's exactly right. And thanks for bringing up Kahneman, because that's what kind of sparked my thinking on Thinking Fast and Slow. You know, his notion that our default option is to grab on to whatever occurs to us in the moment to do, and in this case, it's if we're feeling disoriented. The intuitive response is, I got to get rid of this disorientation. It's uncomfortable. Yes. So if you're feeling like you're at the edge of your comfort zone, what you'd want to do, using the Thinking Fast and Slow terminology, again, just pull back to the center, pull back to a place that's comfortable. homeostasis, right? That's exactly when in fact, what we've learned throughout the past 100 years is that people learn most deeply when they don't when they sit with disorientation and ask themselves, what is this about? Why is this Why is theirs? Is there this disturbance in the homeostasis as you said, yeah, do
Scott Allen 8:36
I am I why am I triggered? Yeah. Why am I triggered?
Jon Wergin 8:39
You know, it's, it's, it's what Maslow called a disorienting dilemma. But in my book, what I tried to do is maintain that we aren't necessarily always driven to learn deeply by being thrown off by a disorienting dilemma. Yes, we feel disoriented in many ways, in many small ways throughout the day, that really doesn't rise to the level of disorienting dilemma that forces us to think differently. There are all of these other small disorientations that with some mindfulness, we can pull out of our unconscious, turn it into something tangible. And that's what I mean by following. Don't dismiss it. But say, your body is telling you something figured help to get it to listen to your body, see what is going on. Follow that disorientation. Reflect on what might have caused it. And then consider whether this might require a different way of thinking. Yeah, about a situation. It's, putting yourself in that state of what I call constructive disorientation. Which I think to me is the central idea of the book, frankly, it's how do you find that sweet spot between comfort and anxiety? Yes, right. that place where you are just uncomfortable enough to be motivated to examine this and reflect on it, but not so uncomfortable that your tendency is to want to pull back escape and go to a more comfortable place. It can be a very narrow band. Yes. But what I think is, is crucial to deep learning. Bullet One,
Scott Allen 10:26
Section 3.3 integrates principles on page 52. Say this. For listeners, he's looking at his book.
Jon Wergin 10:37
We were was joking at the beginning before we began the podcast, I'm sure you've memorized these principles, and I'm going what principles?!
Scott Allen 10:50
But you phrase this beautifully, and it kind of gets to...because I went directly to bullet two, but you say deep learning is not bound by time or circumstance. Deep learning is instead of disposition. Yeah, driven by a sort of an I love this humble curiosity, that there's always more to know. And that the result of that knowledge will make for a more satisfying and efficacious life. Yeah, that humble curiosity?
Jon Wergin 11:16
Yeah, exactly. It's, it's what Peter Vaill wrote about years ago when he talked about always approaching problems as a beginner. Yes, that's what I was trying to get here. Not like you're an expert, who has all the answers, and you're going to apply your expertise because you have what it takes to solve the problem. Sometimes that's true, of course. But when you're dealing with issues of great complexity, you know, in which, you know, adaptive learning and Heifetz terms is what is required. The way to do that is to approach us through a humble curiosity, which basically means I don't have the answers here. But I'm going to become vulnerable enough to admit that I don't have the answers that I get into the curious about what might help.
Scott Allen 12:09
It seems to me that that might be one of the greatest defenses against the probably dozens and dozens and dozens of cognitive biases that are working on us. That's right. Is that accurate?
Jon Wergin 12:22
That is totally accurate. There is one way in which I take issue with a Nobel Laureate.
Scott Allen 12:31
You told him I should send him a memo and let them know.
Jon Wergin 12:37
Yeah, I know, I'm afraid to the near the end of his book, Thinking Fast and Slow. Kahneman wrote about his being a pessimist and how he does not think that there is a way to keep these cognitive biases from hampering our ability to exist in the world. Wow, interesting. Now, I disagree. Now, I do agree that we will always have these kinds of cognitive biases with us, that's how we've evolved as a species, I get that but to say that we're that good or to infer, print or imply rather, that we are then forever victims of those biases is I think, unduly pessimistic, what I because what I tried to argue in the book is that there are in fact, ways to, to deal with them through critical reflection and mindfulness and this notion of, of constantly reflecting on your worldview, in a way that will, you know, help you recognize how to live in a world as complex as this is,
Scott Allen 13:49
you go on to say, in a really nice way, deep learning occurs as a result of opposing forces or dialects. Always intention, how someone lives with acknowledges and manages these tensions will determine in large measure how he or she develops the capacity to live effectively in the world. Yeah, talk about that. Well, I live effectively, Jon helped me out here.
Jon Wergin 14:16
I spent a whole chapter in the book, as you know, talking about dialectical thinking. And then you know, and I think it's important to make a distinction here between a sort of a Marxist view of a dialectic, which is opposing arguments that will eventually lead to a synthesis. My wife is a dialectical thinker in that respect. So virtually every time I bring up an idea or an opinion, she immediately takes the opposite point of view, which was led to some really interesting conversations I might add. But that's not the sort of dialectical thinking I was talking about. I was talking about more of an East Asian view of dialectics which is to develop the capacity to hold contradictory ideas in the same space. And if there is one thing that I think is the single most important quality for people to try to develop these days, is that notion of acknowledging the complexity and feeling as comfortable as you can withholding these contradictory ideas in the same space. You know, it's the, it's the example of a father who is working on a very important project for his company. And his daughter, let's say, has a big soccer game coming up that night, he is pulled by contradictory impulses, he wants to get the project. And he wants to see his daughter in the soccer game. But he can't do both, at least on the surface. And so instead of being buffeted back and forth, choosing one while feeling bad about not doing the other, there's a way of thinking through this complexity that would help come to some kind of space where there is a synthesis of both needs. Yeah, in a way that some are the both of them are at least partially.
Scott Allen 16:19
Well, it reminds me, and let me know if I'm off base here. But even as you were speaking, I was thinking of Robert Kegan and Lisa Lahey's Immunity to Change you know, I want this in column one. I also want these things over here in column three right centers, I will put a link to a book and a video about Kegan and Lahey's Immunity to Change. But there are these contrary, contradictory in some cases, desires, one is a want to go forward. One is holding, holding strong, some of these things that have served me in certain situations, but may actually hold me back. Right, is that this?
Jon Wergin 16:55
Yeah, it's what they call competing commitments. And what is so insightful about this is that these competing commitments are often unconscious, you're aware that you have them. And so the process is one of bringing these to the surface so that you can deal with them. That's part of a whole mindfulness ethos, right? It's, it's instant, instead of being subjected to these competing commitments, you pull them out, you'll look at them as objects to deal with them.
Scott Allen 17:27
Yes. We go on to becoming one who learns deeply is not just a solitary process, deep learning happens through interaction with others, with enough confidence in oneself that others perspectives are valued as tools to one's own development in our original episode, I called it has to be with others. And I know that you feel strongly that this can't just be something that's happening in our head. It has to be with others. But I think there has to be care to how that setting is set up. Would you agree?
Jon Wergin 18:00
Absolutely. Yeah. Talk a little bit about that. It's about trust, I think, Scott, before you are able to engage in a conversation that we hope will lead to an examination of one's worldviews, as being in ways that are informed by the presence of others, where you understand other people's own worldviews, there has to be, you know, enough trust to create just enough vulnerability, to let yourself be heard, step out to the edge, and not worry about getting clobbered by the other person for expressing that view. Yes, I think the pathway to that is to develop empathy and engage in deep listening, and that that so I, you can't have a useful dialogue that might lead to deep learning on both sides. Until there is this spirit of mutual empathy for the other person, doesn't mean you agree with them, doesn't even mean that you will like them, or sympathize with them. But you sort of getting where they're coming from. Yes. And once the other person realizes that they are engaging in this process of trying to understand where you're coming from, then that's the basis for a conversation that can potentially lead to deep learning,
Scott Allen 19:30
incredibly difficult to do, incredibly difficult to do. Well, I think of some conversations I've been involved in where maybe the topic was diversity, equity, and inclusion. And you begin with this room of individuals. Let's the instance I'm thinking about there are maybe 70 people in the room, and some individuals are tired of the conversation because they are just tired and they're frustrated. Other individuals, it's the first time they've been in a space to have this Conversation, other folks are coming off with a tone that's like, "Oh, you don't get it." Other people are then shutting down. Other people are then getting agitated. And it's just this really, really interesting, difficult space to manage and to facilitate. Because if you're really going to get to some meaningful conversation, that takes some master facilitation,
Jon Wergin 20:24
It does. Absolutely. It's someone who is able to maintain among people a, by term, a feeling of constructive disorientation that they're in a space that isn't comfortable for them. But they have the sense that that is going to get better. And that gap gets it's incredibly difficult. And it is so easy, especially on topics of diversity, equity, and inclusion, to be judgmental, to, you know, for people who feel like, well, "I'm woke and you're not." Or from the other side, people who find those pushing for progress on some of these issues as being supercilious and moralistic and so forth. Folks don't like to feel judged. I mean, that's obvious. So but so, so again, that's why it's so important to work to get people into a space where they begin to practice empathic listening first. Yeah, and creating those
Scott Allen 21:33
conditions. But that being with others, I think you caught you talking a little bit about some of the most constructive learning spaces are when those groups are diverse on a number of different dimensions, right?
Jon Wergin 21:47
Yes, absolutely. I mean, what's the point of, you know, talking to people who mostly share your worldview, where you're, you're in a bubble? You know, it's, you might
Scott Allen 21:59
You're just in an analog chat room, right?
Jon Wergin 22:03
You, in fact, you're having a really good time. reinforcing each other?
Scott Allen 22:09
Yes, yes.
Jon Wergin 22:11
I've been there. I've done that. But yeah, you've got to have, you've got to have this diversity, and not just in the obvious ways, right, not just in terms of political diversity or ethnic diversity, but in ways where people are able to draw upon their own life experience, as it has framed and helped frame their worldview, they, you know, they can tell stories about that experience. People can relate to stories, you can empathize with stories. And once you're able to do that, the stories can be incredibly powerful means of stimulating a deep learning kind of experience, because the more you are able to not just engage with, but in some ways identify with another person's story.
Scott Allen 23:02
Yeah. And empathize with the previous point.
Jon Wergin 23:05
Yeah, then it's much more likely, not necessarily that you're going to adopt that person's point of view. That's not the idea. But it's going to create enough disorientation in your own view to make you wonder about what parts of that might need to be reflected upon.
Scott Allen 23:23
Well, I know and I love towards the end of the book, and this is not I'm not, I'm moving off of the bullets, we're gonna come back to the bullets, but I'm moving off of them. But you very beautifully talk about how the arts can help open up some of those spaces. Oh, yeah. And storytelling is maybe a version of the arts, but that it can be a conduit for people, to open themselves, to become vulnerable, and to identify with another story, right?
Jon Wergin 23:51
What's wonderful about the arts, Scott, is that you are not you can feel vulnerable, but you don't appear at all. Yes, you can excuse an experience, art, even very provocative art, in your own way. And if you allow yourself to follow the disorientation that may be caused by that artwork, whether it's a statue, or a Banksy poster, or a play or whatever, even a novel, if you allow yourself to not just experience the disorientation which is often what people do with art just for the sake of feeling a bit disoriented or you're all of a sudden you're in somebody else's world to use that as a way to, to say well, what is that? What is that feeling I'm having about? Yes. Why am I a little rattled? By seeing this painting or viewing the statue? What is that about? And what can I learn from what that but What sort of emotions are have been stimulated by that?
Scott Allen 25:04
It's interesting, Jon, even as you are speaking, I'm thinking back to my time at Antioch and in the program. And this is what 2000 to 2003. And I apologize, I don't necessarily remember what every one of your lectures was about, or what Dr. Holloway's lectures were about or Al's or even Peter Vaill's. But some vivid memories for me, one of them was when we as a cohort visited the Museum of Tolerance in LA. Oh, right. Yeah. And that that was incredibly impactful. I hadn't had an experience like that before. I hadn't visited a museum of that nature before. I hadn't. I hadn't lived that. And all of a sudden having that experience, but then coming back and actually processing that with the group to your point, you know, that that whole, it has to be with others. I'm the kid there with kind of eyes wide open. I didn't know that was a thing. Of course, I'd heard of the Holocaust and some of those atrocities, but I'd never been immersed in it in that way. Yes. Incredibly powerful.
Jon Wergin 26:12
Yeah, that's a beautiful example of what I was talking about. Yeah. You know, you could go to a museum-like that and come away from it going Well, wasn't that awful? No. I wasn't there. I had nothing to do with it, those poor people, and then that's as far as it goes, yeah. Or you could do what you did, which is acknowledge how that really disoriented you. And how then thankfully, you had the space to debrief all of this with other people so that you could better understand what that meant. Yeah.
Scott Allen 26:51
And in a very diverse group of people, whether that was, you know, at the time, I'm 25, or whatever, and I'm there with individuals who had a lot more life experience, and in a number of different ways, right?
Jon Wergin 27:04
Well, I would, I would guess, I mean, up to the fact that you had remembered that moment, after all of these years. Yeah, I would suggest that was a deep learning moment for you.
Scott Allen 27:14
Yeah. Oh, for sure.
Jon Wergin 27:17
You know, wouldn't it be? Wouldn't it be wonderful if we had more of those kinds of moments, where people can get exposed to and provoked by something that Dan might not have otherwise sought? Out? And use that as a trigger for self-reflection, especially reflection with others who've had a similar experimence?
Scott Allen 27:45
Yes. Okay, second to the last bullet, sir. Okay. Let me see which one was a deep learner who accepts the reality that making meaning out of chaos is only temporary and that the turbulence is ongoing and inevitable. A deep learner finds forming and reforming meaning perspectives to be a creative challenge, and thus intrinsically rewarding. Yeah. Talk about that. Is it the, there's enjoyment in the process of having my worldview of having my assumptions, kind of challenged and being exposed to new ways of thinking or being is that the spirit of this, Jon?
Jon Wergin 28:28
That's the spirit of it. John Dewey wrote about how learning is in people is always about this tension between our innate curiosity to know about the world on the one hand, and our need for safety. On the other
Scott Allen 28:45
Goes back to that keygen, which I'm going to put in the Keegan Aigle podcast episode I was telling you about before this, we want to live and thrive and grow. But we also want to not die and stay safe. Right?
Jon Wergin 28:57
That's right. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And so that's what it's about. It's, you know, developing this sort of deep learning disposition, if you will, where you recognize that, in many ways, as we have learned to be in society, our innate curiosity about the world is not well served. Hmm. Right. Yeah. I mean, but look at it. Look at what happens with little kids. They're curious about everything. And they thrive on learning about the world simply because they want to know, yeah, they want to experience and they want to get out there. After a while the safety issues start kicking in, you know, now in terms of conforming to the school curricula, to do all of the things that you need to learn to become an adult. You know what Keegan refers to a stage three right now. And it could lead to too, that that sense of innate curiosity being suppressed? Yeah. And so part of what I was trying to say there was a deep learning mindset that gives us permission to continually be curious about the world, and to find intrinsic satisfaction. And I think that's one element of wisdom as a matter of fact, right, which is like, it's acknowledging that you never have stuff figured out that all you have is sort of temporary understandings that will be inevitably replaced by other temporary understandings. Hopefully, it just goes on forever, hopefully. And that's okay. Yeah, actually, yeah.
Scott Allen 30:47
That's, that's the work. That's the process. That's the process. Yeah, exactly.
Jon Wergin 30:51
And, you know, and I think, level five and Keegan's terms is very hard to describe. And I'm not sure he or anybody else does a particularly good job of it. You know, it's the sense of transcendence. Well, what the heck is that?
Scott Allen 31:11
I think you just hear that didn't happen.
Jon Wergin 31:15
that was a good note. You just
Scott Allen 31:18
You levitate a little bit off the ground. And you
Jon Wergin 31:24
Yes, exactly. But I think it was a simple way to look at it is what I was just talking about, you know, it's like a, okay, understanding that the world is incredibly complex and chaotic. And we're never going to figure it out completely. But it's, it's, it's all about, you know, holding these contradictions. It's about developing temporary understandings. It's about having the agility to move from one point of view to another, gracefully, and all, and this is where from Nice, this comes in Scott.
Scott Allen 31:58
Ah, see, okay, okay. Yeah,
Jon Wergin 32:01
because I, I've always thought of phronesis, as, you know, a knowledge of when to use a particular knowledge base that you have, because you have several that are all based upon different ways of knowing. And I think somebody who was really good at phronesis is someone who is wise enough to choose the combination of knowing that they have, to the surface of a particular situation. I think that's what wisdom is all about. And I think that's what, in some ways, level-five person and Kegan's terms, practices as well...
Scott Allen 32:41
there's, and I still need to I have gone through and recorded my notes for half the book of everything I oftentimes, my process for some reason is I go through a highlight a bunch of stuff, and then I go back through, and I actually type in or I've been you dictating certain passages into a Word document and helps me solidify some of these things. I still don't I haven't gotten to this, because I know I need to do this. I need to better understand because your last bullet gets to reflectivity. Yeah, so I'm struggling right now with the difference between reflectivity, critical reflection, mindfulness, these all feel like close cousins. Or maybe you can talk a little bit about I'm not gonna ask you to define each one of them, but maybe talk about some of those, those nuances, because it seems like those would be embedded in some of what you just said.
Jon Wergin 33:38
Okay. Let me, let me see if I can. I mean, critically reflect.
Scott Allen 33:47
I'm mindful.
Jon Wergin 33:51
Yeah, I think let me try to do it this way. I think reflexivity...of course, it to me is a disposition. Okay. That incorporates both mindfulness and critical reflection. Mindfulness will help one critically reflect on whatever disorientation you're feeling about the situation.
Scott Allen 34:19
In the moment type thing, Jon?
Jon Wergin 34:21
In the moment...Yes. And reflexivity is the is learning to engage in mindfulness and critical reflection at the right times. Okay. That makes sense.
Scott Allen 34:35
It does. So, reflexivity would be part mindfulness, part critical reflection, mindfulness, maybe some of that inaction, and I'm mindful of how I'm behaving or how I'm acting or how I'm intervening. There's, there's a presence there. critical reflection, maybe that post mortem on how did that go? What? And really not kind of again, it's almost like a type two thinking from an economist's perspective of really examining what occurred, not just throwing it away.
Jon Wergin 35:12
That's exactly right. And it's good to remember that, that that mindfulness is based upon emotion. Okay, critical reflection is based upon cognition. So a sense of disorientation is a completely emotional kind of physical experience. It is alerting you to something that you may want to pay attention to. Yeah. And that's where the critical reflection comes in or thinking slow and cons terms, rather than, as we were saying earlier, just dismissing the disorientation and slotting it away like a fly, say, oh, you know, that's bothering me go away. Yeah, there are times when you don't want it to go. And so it's cultivating that sort of reflexivity mindset that I think is part of this whole deep learning process.
Scott Allen 36:02
You know, I think, for listeners, I want you to know that we're only on page 50. And there
Jon Wergin 36:13
We have many more episodes!
Scott Allen 36:17
I'll be reaching back out, I'll say, "I read it again!" But you know, there's, it goes to 176 pages. So there's a whole, there's a whole just really, really nice deep learning mindset. Visual, that's a model. And that that really highlights a number of the different ingredients. If you're a leadership educator, if you are interested in helping facilitate leadership learning, if you are interested in creating spaces that maximize an individual's ability to learn, you know, this is I think of it almost Jon, and this is gonna sound really weird, but it's almost like it's a cookbook. There's a recipe in here, that I think are some of the major ingredients. Because again, I don't say it's everything, because we're always continually learning. I'm sure there are other things that maybe aren't here. But this is such a beautiful, it's just I see it as a recipe. I really do.
Jon Wergin 37:14
That was kind of in the back of my mind. I'm thinking back to the work that you and I did some years ago when we wrote this article together on how adult learning theory should inform Leadership Theory. Yep. Because it hadn't, very much at the time. And look what's happened in the last 15 years? Yes, you, you know, I wouldn't say that today, with, you know, the connection between learning and leadership, as I think getting stronger all the time. And so one of the things that I really hoped just put book would do, even though it's not a leadership book, is to provide a framework where people who if you know, if you think about leadership in its simplest terms, which is influencing others to move in a particular direction, well, you have to know a lot about how adults learn and how they don't learn, right? In order to get that job done. You know, that was one of the audience's I hope, would be interested in the book.
Scott Allen 38:17
Well, Jon, like last time, I just want to close out by asking you, if there's anything that's been on your radar recently, that's caught your attention. I remember sitting in having, I think we were having breakfast, it may have been in Canada, at an IRA and you were telling me about Thinking Fast and Slow that you were kind of really immersed in that work, and it was some of your thinking, any other things that have come on your radar that you want listeners to know about?
Jon Wergin 38:42
I don't suppose that includes the cookbooks I've been reading lately. That it does.
Scott Allen 38:48
I think your next book should be called cooking up some leadership as
Jon Wergin 38:55
Well, you were using the term, you know, the metaphor recipe. Yes. You know, I have, I have to admit that I'm because I'm semi-retired, sort of sliding into full retirement. I'm, in fact reading a lot of cookbooks, trying out different recipes, and engaging in a sort of humble curiosity about how I might modify this or modify that. And sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. I've got plenty of neighbors who are willing to try out my experiments. So
Scott Allen 39:30
at least with it with the unlike some of our other work, right, you get pretty immediate results as to how it worked, you know?
Jon Wergin 39:40
You know, the minute that comes out of the oven whether this is a keeper or not. I have to admit I'm kind of as far as other books are concerned. I'm at a place where I'll start a book and then stop and then say, No, I'm really interested in this anymore. I'm honestly looking for something that's going to hold my interest thing more than just 30 pages. You got any, any suggestions?
Scott Allen 40:07
I do. I have so many. Because people ask that question, everyone. And it's like being back in the Ph. D program where everyone's like, hey, you need to read Blair. You know, it's a never-ending list. But I'm listening. I'm listening right now to Caste. And that's very, very powerful.
Jon Wergin 40:26
Yes, I read it. Yes. Well, that's it. I read that book about a year ago, and it had a powerful impact. So thanks for bringing it up. I, because this is a this is an excellent example. Reading and being disoriented. You can...I bet you had the same experience though...
Scott Allen 40:42
I never thought about it like that before. I didn't know that was a thing...sending postcards of lynchings as a norm..through the US Postal Service. I, I...
Jon Wergin 40:57
And the notion that the situation we're facing, not just in the United States, but in many other places in the world, the structural disadvantage is as much due to caste as it is to race, if not more, so has sort of stuck with me. And I'm thinking, do I agree with that? I don't think I do...but boy, it sure made me re-examine some of the assumptions that I had about what is wrong and what has to be done about it.
Scott Allen 41:28
Yes. You know, I don't know if I've emailed you about this yet. But do you have Hulu? Yes. Okay. Have I told you about In and of Itself?
Scott Allen 41:28
Yes. You know, I don't know if I've emailed you about this yet. But do you have Hulu? Yes. Okay. Have I told you about In and of Itself?
Jon Wergin 41:36
Yes, you did.
Scott Allen 41:38
Did you watch it?
Jon Wergin 41:39
No, I haven't yet.
Scott Allen 41:40
Jon Wergin!!! It has a direct link to some of your work. It is a piece of art that has fundamentally kept me in a place of reflection. It is. It's a very, very interesting piece. And I, once you watch it, send me a note and let me know what you think. Because, and I've mentioned it a few times on the podcast, but I literally just watched it again the other night. And I see something new every time both in myself and kind of as a part of the story that he's sharing, and a series of stories. So in and of itself, in and of itself. Okay. Jon, thank you so much, sir.
Jon Wergin 42:22
You know, anytime. It's always so much fun to talk to you. If you know, you were saying, you know, you were feeling proud. At the beginning of the podcast, I I feel so proud about what you've been able to accomplish. Thank you. In the past, almost, Gosh, 20 years. Yes.
Scott Allen 42:42
Yes. And you know, this, this whole experience of having conversations with people from all over the world and the place that it keeps me in this humble curiosity. I edited a podcast this morning, Jon, about leadership on the comments, these eco-communities that I'd never heard of, I'd never heard of the communist system. And, okay, a new little nook and cranny of this conversation in the world. And so, it's been a lot of fun, and I just can't thank you enough for your time, sir. Thank you for your good work.
Jon Wergin 43:16
And thank you for doing these podcasts. I cannot believe it's almost 100
Scott Allen 43:20
Yes. Well, you're part of this suite of episodes, the last 595 through 100. It's kind of a big deal. You might have some people knocking for movie rights and it's just it's kind of a big thing. Take care, Jon, thank you so much.
Jon Wergin 43:40
Thank you, Scott. Be well
Transcribed by https://otter.ai