Sadhana Warty Hall’s commitment as both a teacher and practitioner of leadership reflects a deep dedication to justice and empowerment, both locally and globally. She has applied her experience in management and strategic thinking to community development at institutions ranging in location from New Hampshire and Vermont to Tuvalu, Armenia, and Bhutan.
As the current Deputy Director of the Rockefeller Center for Public Policy at Dartmouth College, she manages overall operations. She conceptualized the curricula of high-impact co-curricular leadership and mentoring programs and now oversees them. In recognition of her work, Sadhana received Dartmouth College’s Sheila Culbert Distinguished Employee Service Award, the Australia Government’s Endeavor Executive Leadership Award to adapt and implement leadership curricula for Australian Indigenous communities, and acceptance into the Fulbright Specialist Program.
Over the past few years, over 25 students in the Center’s leadership programs, who have also participated in other organizations throughout Dartmouth, have gone on to receive awards including the Rhodes, Truman, Fulbright, Knight Hennessey, Schwarzman, and Pickering scholarships. She is the co-author of Teaching Leadership: Bridging Theory and Practice (2018) and her second book, Leadership Blueprints: Adopt, Adapt, and Adjust was published in July 2021.
She earned an M.A. in history from the University of Rajasthan, India, and completed an M.P.H. in public health from the University of North Carolina.
Resource Mentioned in This Episode/Book by Gama Perruci
Quotes From This Episode
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
Connect with Scott Allen
Sadhana Warty Hall’s commitment as both a teacher and practitioner of leadership reflects a deep dedication to justice and empowerment, both locally and globally. She has applied her experience in management and strategic thinking to community development at institutions ranging in location from New Hampshire and Vermont to Tuvalu, Armenia, and Bhutan.
As the current Deputy Director of the Rockefeller Center for Public Policy at Dartmouth College, she manages overall operations. She conceptualized the curricula of high-impact co-curricular leadership and mentoring programs and now oversees them. In recognition of her work, Sadhana received Dartmouth College’s Sheila Culbert Distinguished Employee Service Award, the Australia Government’s Endeavor Executive Leadership Award to adapt and implement leadership curricula for Australian Indigenous communities, and acceptance into the Fulbright Specialist Program.
Over the past few years, over 25 students in the Center’s leadership programs, who have also participated in other organizations throughout Dartmouth, have gone on to receive awards including the Rhodes, Truman, Fulbright, Knight Hennessey, Schwarzman, and Pickering scholarships. She is the co-author of Teaching Leadership: Bridging Theory and Practice (2018) and her second book, Leadership Blueprints: Adopt, Adapt, and Adjust was published in July 2021.
She earned an M.A. in history from the University of Rajasthan, India, and completed an M.P.H. in public health from the University of North Carolina.
Resource Mentioned in This Episode/Book by Gama Perruci
Quotes From This Episode
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
Connect with Scott Allen
Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate
Scott Allen 0:01
Hello everybody and welcome to Phronesis. Today I am with Sadhana Warty Hall. Her commitment as a teacher and a practitioner of leadership reflects a deep dedication to justice and empowerment locally and globally. She's applied her experience in management and strategic thinking to community development institutions ranging and location from New Hampshire and Vermont, to Tuvalu, Armenia, and Bhutan. As the current deputy director of the Rockefeller Center for Public Policy at Dartmouth College, she manages overall operations. She conceptualized the curricula of high-impact co-curricular leadership and mentoring programs and now oversees them. In recognition of her work. Sedna received Dartmouth College's Sheila Kolbert Distinguished Employee Service Award, the Australian Government's Endeavor Executive Leadership Award to adapt and implement leadership curricula for Australian Indigenous communities, and acceptance into the Fulbright Specialist Program. Over the past few years, over 25 students in the center's Leadership Program have participated in other organizations throughout Dartmouth. And they've gone on to receive awards including the Rhodes Truman, Fulbright Knight Hennessy, Schwartzman, and Pickering scholarships, that's a good track record. She is co-author of teaching leadership bridging theory and practice in that was 2018. And congratulations, July 2021. Every one of you can check the show notes right now and click on Amazon links to purchase leadership blueprints, adopt, adapt and adjust. Today, I am excited to have a conversation with you Sadhana. And we are going to, I think, start by honoring a mutual friend of ours, you had been engaged as a co-author of yours and passed away this summer Gama Perruci. Welcome to the podcast. And maybe we start there, could we get some reflections on your co-author. And of course, the two of you worked on the guiding principles for the International Leadership Association. And just such a shining star isn't he?
Sadhana Hall 2:19
He is wonderful. And I love it, Scott that you're talking about Gama in the present tense, because I feel he lives with us and lives through the students, the faculty, the alumni, that are really influenced by his thoughts the way he was. And the way he is, in our minds, got to tell you were the driving force in encouraging me to write and push me, beyond my comfort zone. And he wanted me to share my thoughts and contributions with others. As you know, he passed away recently, with a courageous, double, long illness. And God knows he was so elegant and optimistic and such a role model in this process, I can only hope that I also behave the same at the time. So I do want to recognize his contribution as the other co-chair of the IRA task force for the general principles that focused on academic, curricular, and co-curricular programs.
Scott Allen 3:27
We were joking a little bit before we started recording because I served on the IRA board with Gama. And it was always so amazing to watch him in action because we'd be embroiled in this conversation for 20 or 25 minutes. And then he would very elegantly wrap everything up in a bow, say it eloquently. And everyone would just kind of nod and say yes, that's the way we're going to move forward. All at once is it if we had been, you know, under his spell, right?
Sadhana Hall 3:58
very true. And everything was so understated, no, and it's a profound personal and professional loss to me because I feel like I've lost a brother, a friend, a colleague, and someone who really pushes you to do your best in the most understated way possible. Yes. So I'm grateful that part of my journey also included someone like Gama.
Scott Allen 4:23
tell the story of the two of you co-authoring your first book together, you shot this
Sadhana Hall 4:31
Okay, so, Gama used to come very often to Dartmouth he was teaching in two of our co-curricular programs, the Rockefeller Global Leadership Program and also the management and leadership development program. So through the course of all this, he got to interact with the students he got to understand who I was, understood what the programming was. So one day he came to me with a proposition and idea he said Santa I'd love for you to co-author this book with me. You're a practitioner, you're a, you're at heart, I've seen you develop all these amazing programs. I love for you to go on to this book. And I immediately said no. And he smiled went upstairs, then he came down. After a little while, he said, I was thinking, Oh, my God. Oh, so he said, "You know, I have heard you say, and tell the students to walk through walk? Why aren't you walking the walk? When we have talked so many times, that your ideas, your contributions, and your programs must be shared with other people? I didn't have an answer for that." And so there it was.
Scott Allen 5:59
You pulled out your laptop and started writing, didn't you?
Sadhana Hall 6:03
And it was a great journey. And through that journey, I got to know him, his wife, his family, and the same. That's why I say it's very personal for me. Also, apart from the fact that professionally, we've lost an amazing, amazing individual.
Scott Allen 6:24
Well, you know, I was speaking with one of his former students, and who lives in Northeast Ohio. And we had an opportunity to connect because I knew he had graduated from Marietta. And it was just so wonderful to connect with someone who knew him in that way, as an educator, because I'd never really spoken with one of his students, and the words that he had for Gama, just I hope students say that about me someday. I mean, it's just, it was so beautiful, to hear him talk about his experience. And I think that's everything that all of us can hope for.
Sadhana Hall 7:04
Right? We can just hope for it. And we can prefer it, and we can work on it and become it. Yes, because I do not subscribe to the notion that you should fake it till you make it, you should work on it until you become it!
Scott Allen 7:22
I like it work on it till you become
Sadhana Hall 7:24
the comments. And I tell my students this all the time because you know, they come and sometimes students will stare at me, and they'll just simply say, suddenly, you just got to fake it till you make it. You've got to work on it till you become
Scott Allen 7:40
we're gonna learn. That's great. So talk a little bit about the process, because I've also had some conversations, Denny Roberts, Dave rush, Dan Jenkins, some of the folks who worked on the IRA guiding principles with the two of you because the two of you led that committee and very, very important work. So would you talk a little bit about that process, and maybe even just highlight a couple of things that stood out for you that you're proud of?
Sadhana Hall 8:11
So I'm, I'm actually really proud of many things. Really. I think that this was a really incredible journey for me, understood, the reason why I was Gama asked me to co-chair with him because he was not feeling too great. But at the same time, I think we were supported by such an amazing group of 19 others. We mentioned, some of them, you know, Danny Dan Rosch. So many of them, you know, what was interesting was that they were from different parts of the world, we were 20 of us, a great 12 A US base, but from many different nationalities, too, and maybe our nationalities. But then there was someone from New Zealand, Mexico, Egypt, South Africa, Japan, Canada, and the UK. So this is one of the reasons I'm actually really proud because not only did they bring upon the Think about all how their thoughts matter within their own cultural context, they also, I think, very respectfully, challenging of each other's views to come to a common understanding that about the process. And, you know, I think that there are many things I couldn't remember, but I will just some basic things that I really recall. I think all of us in there were lifelong learners, and we believed in continuous quality improvement. So in that sense, this concept paper is a living document, and we really hope that it continues to evolve over time and reflect theories and practices that are being developed in this field that you and I so love, and we believed Gama and I really believed a good idea becomes a great idea with the input of many because it brings together many different perspectives. The process really was actually an example of that. And there were times, you know, I like to talk about the highs, there were times when many people were busy and but other people pitched in? Was the process always perfect? No, but when you look at the end result was really great. I do believe that having a systematic process that gives voice to different opinions is key. And when we lead or follow in our different various endeavors, and I think we must build on the good intentions of others, really, and keep evolving our thoughts and ideas continue. So there are many, many other things because they were fun, so much fun to work with. And I really loved that part as well. And we were cross timezones Scott, that was mind-blowing!
Scott Allen 10:57
You just covered almost all of the time zones, it sounds like
Sadhana Hall 11:00
you tried to work, work on it. And you know, later on, I just want to, I always like to recognize everyone. But maybe at the end, I will just give tribute to each one, almost with the roll call. We have the time.
Scott Allen 11:12
Of course, of course! We can do that, for sure. I love how you framed that. It's a living, breathing document. It's a work in progress we and Danny Roberts had, as he kind of talked about his experience on the committee, he spoke so highly of that process of the opportunity to bring multiple perspectives from all over the world. And, and that he really did also, I mean, he shared it similar sentiments that it's a, it's a work in progress. It's a living document that all of us are continuously learning and developing and growing and seeing the world through new lenses. And I love the spirit of that. And then I love the spirit of fun. Right? You had a good time!
Sadhana Hall 12:02
We really had a good time. And I think that you know, I just recognize us also how respectfully people disagree. That was lovely. Because, you know, it makes me think about this. Let's disagree. Let's agree. We disagree. Let's not be disagreeable?
Scott Allen 12:18
Yes. Well, it reminds me of Gama, because at times he would shut me down. But I didn't even know I'd been shut down. I'd have to, I'd have to think for a moment now to say, Oh, well, he just disagreed with me. But I feel great.
Sadhana Hall 12:37
It is a very rare quality of leadership and management. We really should do it. Exactly. Oh, hard. We should practice so hard. And especially now troubled times. Really? Let's disagree. Let's agree to disagree. But let's not be disagreeable. And it's, it's problematic when I see. And I'm really, really passionate about this in our leadership programs. So we have actual sessions on difficult conversations and how you practice? Yes. Using elegant words, you know, words matter.
Scott Allen 13:19
Yes.
Sadhana Hall 13:20
How do you make other people save face? Yes. And how you really, truly come to a deeper understanding of where the other person is coming from.
Scott Allen 13:29
Exactly. Exactly. He was brilliant at that work. And I, I can only imagine, because I've I spent the summer working on a curriculum. And there was a team of us working on this curriculum, and especially passionate leadership educators who have their own perspectives and their lenses, coalescing, all of that was your own leadership challenge. I imagine.
Sadhana Hall 13:57
Truly, it was a, it was a challenge in a different sort of way of challenge in a joyful way. Because you knew that maybe Scott disagrees with Person X. And it was so easy for me, Scott, to literally say, let's come back and look at this. So what was I think I learned a lot about really bringing people together. And how do you do it across time zones? Yes, no, because sometimes someone wasn't able to come in, and I needed to make sure that that voice was being heard, and therefore I would reach out to them. So I think that there was that, and I think massively well-organized process, at least to the extent we could, of course, we made mistakes along the way, but because corrected and I think that's because one of the qualities of leadership is to acknowledge it and be humble. And then start figuring out how you're going to course-correct quickly.
Scott Allen 15:05
Let's use that as a transition to your book. So July 2021, it's not even a month old. We have leadership blueprints, adopt, adapt and adjust. So would you give us and I'll put, I'll put a link in the show notes to both the IRA guiding principles, but then also your two books, and maybe share with us some of the highlights of that work. What are you proud of? What, what? What really stands out for you? Or would you like listeners to know about that work?
Sadhana Hall 15:38
Well, thank you so much. So. So it really goes back to my history of why I started working in higher ed in the first place. So I had a career in international work because of personal circumstances. And very quickly, I learned the importance of humility, and the importance of empathy. My circumstances were such that I had been offered many jobs. But I took the dark position because people were very kind to me. And I'm when I needed it most. My mother had just died. And I was in India. And all they could say to me was, don't worry, you can come back when you're ready. Well, and it completely sued my really sad, sad state, appoint us. And so I decided, Well, this sounds like fun. And I had other offers, but those people who offered those positions to me, he literally said this to me, Scott, When can you come? And I was like, I am not ready yet. And so that's how my journey in hybrid started. Well, I thought I was going to be dead for two years. That was in 2004. So that was in 2004. And I got to see Andrew Sandvik, who was the former director of the Rockefeller Center, the Nelson A. Rockefeller Center actually really gave me the opportunity along with Fritz Corrigan and Glenda Corrigan, where we had the resources to build a compliment of leadership programs, one idea led to another one understanding of gap led to another development. And all of a sudden, we had a continuum of leadership programs. So fast forward teaching leadership, bridging theory practice, we talked about to Scott basic principles Gama and I then started this process like...what's your next plan? And, you know, I speak from a place of really difficult circumstances where every time something difficult has happened in my life, great things have happened. So I had a friend who also was extremely ill. And to humor her, I used to be telling her about the programs all the time. And I used to always say, Katie, I'm going to write about them, Katie, I'm going to write about them. And that the one day, she just said, Turn your talk into action.
Scott Allen 18:30
I think I have the title for this episode.
Sadhana Hall 18:32
Leadership is turning talk into action. And so I tried to really do like a quick sprint to finish the book in time for Katie to see and hold. And the same thing with Gama because he wrote the foreword of the book. Really? Yes, he wrote the foreword for the book, you know. And I really wanted both of them to see this book. And both of them now are looking at it and they're smiling at their handiwork. They're thinking, wow, this is good.
Scott Allen 19:05
Well, tell us about some of the highlights of the book.
Sadhana Hall 19:08
So you know, many leadership programs are offered by the Nelson A. Rockefeller Center, the one that the book really is focusing on our core leadership programs for different target ages and developmental stages. Okay, programs for first-year students, we have programs for second-year, third-year, and final-year students, and then we have a final-year program just for seniors. One of them has a very different kind of flavor to it. So the first-year program really focuses on values, attitudes, behaviors, preparation for the workplace, the second year, third year and fourth-year program, which is called the Management Leadership Development Program focuses much more on this basic idea that management is doing things right. Leadership is doing the right thing. It looks at technical competencies and prepares students to go into internships and reflect. Awesome. And then the third program is the Rockefeller Global Leadership Program because you know, we are working in an interconnected world, it's really important for us to focus on intercultural competencies that we need, yes, become really, really fluent in working in other cultures, and really bring out the best in others. It's really important, I think, for me, and, and that really, is an absolute passion of mine, because of my international work.
Scott Allen 20:42
Well and I imagine as juniors, or third-year students at this point, this is probably roughly around the time when some of them are traveling abroad, is that accurate?
Sadhana Hall 20:52
Actually, so they're going to foreign study programs, are they coming back? So, it's also looking forward, and it's also reflecting back on your exhibit so that you can actually use reflection as very important to, and the final year is this for seniors, which is the Rockefeller Leadership Fellows Program. And that one is so reflective, all these programs have a basis and a foundation, become self-aware, learn how to work within teams understand how this plays within organizations to achieve societal good.
Scott Allen 21:27
I love where you start with the values and who am I as an individual because I don't know that that's if we can build that habit of mine, that way of being to be reflective, and I love how you said, Look, reflection is a core piece of all of this, that if we can build that habit of mind, of continuous reflection, continuous learning, and just a way of being of looking within Does that make sense?
Sadhana Hall 21:56
Right, and you know, it's also along the way learning how to learn. So because I strongly believe and you know, one of the friends one of my friends was saying, see nowadays be an all of us know, this nowadays, we just, if you don't know how to do a question, we just stop, I'm just going to Google, Google and then respond. What about the ability to work with others, the ability to really present yourself, your authentic self, and the ability to think about your organization and how you're going to contribute to its mission. All these things really have to become a way of being Yes. And you have to work on it till you become it. Well, and
Scott Allen 22:43
You're providing that blueprint, you're providing that practice field for students. Now, are they in this for all four years? Every one of the students?
Sadhana Hall 22:53
Excellent question. So, so the first-year Fellows Program is selected. Okay. That's complicated, actually, the structure so we have a program that's available broadly for everyone on campus, and it's called Dartmouth leadership, attitudes, and behaviors. Then we go into the first-year Fellows Program, which is hugely competitive and we do a boot camp, selective few students, and they are placed with mentors who are Dartmouth alums in DC, nice. For the last couple of years, we've not been able to do it. And we've been doing this virtually the whole thing. Virtually. All my god, Scott. It's been awesome. Reads, really. So we have developed what I call a virtual muscle. Yes, virtual presence. I cannot tell you how many mentors have sent me messages saying, how are these first-year students? So attentive on Zoom? Neck rate, that wonderful? So one of the chapters in the book really describes that. That process,
Scott Allen 24:07
I love that I was literally having lunch with a colleague today is not a colleague that I work with, but just someone I very much respect. And I said to him because he had asked me how it was to go online. And I said, Look, I, I didn't know that it could be done. But I went in with a mindset of I want this to be the best class they've ever taken. And can we do that? And can we figure it out? And the students were giving me feedback, and I was asking for feedback. And I was learning quickly and learning rapidly and don't do this again, and do that again. But I love how you enthusiastically said it was awesome because it's different, but the same. But I am confident that moving forward this last year, year and a half has provided me with some tools for the arsenal, so to speak, that I didn't know existed that I hadn't practiced before and it's I think strengthened my own overall ability to approach curriculum, think creatively about how we convey and communicate information. So I just got excited when you said it was awesome.
Sadhana Hall 25:11
To see that fun on the way, you know, students really started relating to us, not only as facilitators of a process, and we did many, many complicated things like project management, you know, how do you network virtually? That's great. And how do you develop a program design? How do you write a letter to Senator all those things virtually, and then they didn't eat week fellowship with the, with the mentors, nice. The first year and management, a leadership development program follows basically the nice and the World Economic Forum report, okay, I do research based on those, and also what our colleagues are doing around the country. So we do periodic, you know, like a scan of what the programs are, and come to a sweet spot, and then use the code cycle of learning, basically, in a train of facilitators just becomes joyful in delivering content, which I just love. And so based on that, you know, the programs have would be called the eight pillars of planning, and I've outlined that, okay. You know, so many people have so many pillars, I also thought I'd add so many of my own.
Scott Allen 26:38
I'm gonna add eight more pillars.
Sadhana Hall 26:43
But it is kind of true. If you have you know, if you have rigorous programs, if they're structured if they have a community element, if they have a good assessment and assessment process, it is Participant empowerment, it does reflection. Notice I mentioned all the eight oh, settle off me. You have really strong programs.
Scott Allen 27:08
I love it. I love it. Well, I'm going to put, as I said, I'm going to put the link into the show notes. And you know, Leadership Blueprint: Adopt, Adapt, Adjust. I love those three words. Those are powerful words, especially given some of our recent histories as a globe. Speaking of that, as I as we wind down our conversation for the day, I always ask guests what they're listening to, or streaming or reading, consuming, that's caught your eye in recent months.
Sadhana Hall 27:43
You know, I'm really troubled with everything that's going on around the world. I don't know where to stop. But I really am reflective about my place in this world. Now, I listen to a piece of news. And let's take, for example, what's happening in Afghanistan? Yes, I want to see what my place in it is. Do I need to be an empathetic individual? Do I need to understand the geopolitical situation really well? And as somebody who was born and brought up in India, do I need to stop worrying about what's happening in that whole region? Just one thing, right? And I'm on a base level, I really want to, I really want to be a nice person. That's my goal. And you know how hard it is to be nice, every day?
Scott Allen 28:34
It is! If we had the whole world practicing that we'd be a better place.
Sadhana Hall 28:40
Right? And so, I feel like if we model it as educators, and we model that energy is needed, because, you know, I know how many students are really so sad about the experience right now on campus. And so many people who have started their careers are so sad when they come in into a hybrid environment. My question is, is what it is my friends? Yes. Can we do something great for each other? And can we build a community that's virtual and in-person together?
Scott Allen 29:18
We need to adapt and adjust to make it happen.
Sadhana Hall 29:22
Yeah, and you know what, Scott, I have just used literally concepts in this book for the IT department at the department together leadership program. So indeed, I've been using it for K-12. I've been using it also for Public Health Association. So I really feel like there's something in it for everybody. They can adopt a captain adjusted as long as they believe, you know because you have to have a core set of beliefs. There will always be people to support. That's my belief.
Scott Allen 29:55
If we are individuals in the world, who are educating ourselves to better understand. And then if we are, as you mentioned, practicing kindness, and working to empathize, which was a key word that you use that brought you to Dartmouth, right? Yeah. And if we're modeling that for our students, but also with one another, I think that's an important first step, right? What can I do? Well, I can become educated, I can empathize. And I can model that behavior. That's so important.
Sadhana Hall 30:30
True. And Scott, you know, one more thing, all these things are great. But they will go nowhere. If you're not technically competent. I think that that has to be married with the field of endeavor, all of us think about leadership as a separate field. And I think that it's key that we support all other forms of endeavor. And you can really put the two together and make really excellent managers and leaders and people who are leaders and followers. There's controversy about leaders and followers. And seriously, sometimes you lead, follow or you get a thing.
Scott Allen 31:11
I like how you said that it doesn't matter if you're at the NIH, or if you are in a lab in Los Alamos, or if you are working on a farm in Iowa, regardless of your area of expertise and specialty, that knowledge of leadership and great leadership. Yeah, it's an incredible compliment, right?
Sadhana Hall 31:30
Absolutely. I really do want to also talk about the ILA experience to the task force experience, you know, round this experience out. So that discussion also has helped inform me about what my programs need to look like in the spirit of continuous quality improvement.
Scott Allen 31:50
I love it.
Sadhana Hall 31:51
I thank all the task force members who pushed that thinking ahead, as well.
Scott Allen 31:58
You had a wonderful list of individuals do you want to say their names real quick to close this out for the day?
Sadhana Hall 32:03
So to close out, I really want to thank my colleagues at the Nelson A. Rockefeller Center for Public Policy in the social sciences. I want to thank all the members of the guiding principles Task Force who just also pushed me to some new levels. So thank you, Gama. Thank you, Carla, Denny, Kerstin, Dan, Grant, Gayle, David, Brad, Prince, Adrian, Ahmed, Yvette, Kathy, Oliver, Miki, Brigitte, Joanne, Gareth, and my two program assistants. Lisa, you were awesome, too. And Robin, thank you.
Scott Allen 32:53
Okay. So incredible work. You can read their work because I'm going to have links to it in the show notes. So thank you so much for spending your time with me this Friday afternoon, Scott. I feel like I have a new friend. Thank you. So I agree. I agree. I love it. I absolutely love it. I look forward to our paths crossing again soon.
Sadhana Hall 33:16
Thank you. Thank you, you
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