Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott Allen

Dr. Chellie Spiller - Spheres Not Squares

August 29, 2021 Scott J. Allen Season 1 Episode 84
Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott Allen
Dr. Chellie Spiller - Spheres Not Squares
Show Notes Transcript

Dr. Chellie Spiller, (hapū Matawhaiti Iwitea, Ngāti Kahungunu ki Wairoa), is based in Auckland and is a professor at the University of Waikato Management School.

Chellie is a passionate and committed advocate for Māori Business development. Her vision is to create relational wellbeing and wealth across spiritual, environmental, social, cultural, and economic dimensions, creating transformation in people, enabling them to claim their rightful place in the world, and embodying their sense of self.

Chellie’s leadership qualities are nourished by her academic achievements. Chellie was a Fulbright Senior Scholar at the Harvard Kennedy School and the University of Arizona. She is a recipient of a Research Excellence Award, Dame Mira Szászy Māori Alumni Award, and National Māori Academic Excellence Award. She is passionate about teaching on the postgraduate diploma in business administration (Māori development) where she specializes in management and governance.

Quotes From This Episode

  • "I adamantly believe we cannot shoehorn indigenous leadership theory into Western theories. The best that Western theories can do is illuminate some aspect of indigenous leadership, because indigenous leadership is a whole belief system, a whole philosophy/ontology - it’s a way of life."
  • "The invitation of indigenous holistic thinking is to enter a spherical world that’s more rounded, where we show up as whole people. And I guess it is that world of both/and. It’s more interwoven, relational - about the group relationships, group harmony, and group accomplishments, and process orientation."
  • "It comes back to our deep sense of belonging. Belonging, not only to our families, our friends, our communities, but belonging to a place and belonging to the world and to the planet as well. So it really deepens this idea of what it means to belong."
  • "So we make the difference between sphere intelligence and square intelligence -  square intelligence being cells and spreadsheets - that rational logic that can really dictate our path. Instead of stepping back and pausing, and just having that time to reflect and look around and tap into the wisdom within us as well."

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

Poem - The Mystery by Amergin

I am the wind that breathes upon the sea
I am the wave of the ocean
I am the murmur of the billows
I am the ox of the seven combats
I am the vulture upon the rocks
I am a beam of the sun
I am the fairest of plants
I am a wild boar in valour
I am a salmon in the water
I am a lake in the plain
I am a word of science
I am the point of the lance of battle
I am the God who created in the head the fire
Who is it who throws light into the meeting on the mountain?
Who announces the ages of the moon?
Who teaches the place where couches the sun? (If not I?)

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

  • The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals with a keen interest in the study, practice, and teaching of leadership. 

Connect with Scott Allen

Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate. 

Scott Allen  0:01  
Good day, everybody. Welcome to phronesis. Today I'm honored to have Dr. Chellie spiller and she is a professor at the University of Waikato, his management school, and Associate Dean Maori. She has a passion for leadership, Maori and indigenous business and governance, wisdom, diversity, inclusion and belonging, and sustainable business. She is a committed advocate for Maori leadership management, governance, and business development. And her latest book, has practical wisdom in the title and that's in the title of my podcast Chellie! So I'm excited. It's Practical Wisdom Leadership and Culture, Indigenous Asian and Middle Eastern Perspectives. Now, I'm really looking forward to this conversation what what would you like to share with listeners about you Before we begin, and then we can start our topic for the day?

Chellie Spiller  1:00  
Thank you. Well, first of all, I'd really like to start with a Maori greeting to all the listeners [Chellie's Maori Greeting]. What that means is warm greetings, everyone from the Pacific. And I'm acknowledging all the manner or the dignity or the authority, or the languages and the people of the four winds that have gathered here to listen to this podcast, Scott.

Scott Allen  1:34  
Oh, well, thank you. Thank you. Well and tell listeners about you. What should we know? That wasn't in the little brief bio that I read?

Chellie Spiller  1:44  
Well, I am a professor of leadership at the University of Waikato in Hamilton, New Zealand, I have what you would describe as bi-cultural heritage. So on my mother's side, I'm indigenous Maori. So I come from a long line of very staunch, Maori warrior women. And on the other side, I come from British heritage through my father. So I guess it's very much shaped and informed my work and leadership, and that passion and the advocacy that you mentioned. And particularly, I really had to navigate those worldviews as they've often collided and the household end and myself. And I guess my work has been one of incoming to a deeper understanding of cultures, worldviews, and how we can move forward from that place. So it's working at the interface, we would call it.

Scott Allen  2:39  
Chellie, would you talk a little bit about that? And talk a little bit about some of those interfaces that you've had to, in some cases, maybe reconcile maybe they haven't been reconciled? But what are some of those interfaces?

Chellie Spiller  2:53  
Well, as it were, from the Maori side from these that I really, I guess, part that I've really known and because my British grandparents never made it to New Zealand, and my Irish grandfather passed away before I got to know him. So I've been very deeply steeped in the Maori worldview. And that, for me, is a worldview that's built on relationships. It's very warm, it's very culturally grounded. And it's very different from the wider western Pacific. So how that shows up in my own life as I really wanted to go out and see the world as is most Kiwis do, we really, really want to care about our way our overseas experience and going out and I haven't my first experience was as an AFS, on American Field Service in Thailand, for one year and that really opened up in perspectives to me and I eventually made my way back to New Zealand after spending some 15 years in Australia did a master's in international relations, a Ph.D. in business. And then I went to Harvard, and that was a really, that was a turning point for me Scott because, at Harvard, I met the people who are working on the Native American Indian, that was Harvard project on Native American Economic Development, and then I really got to see what was happening,  the incredible things that were taking place. And I brought that knowledge back and into my work.

Scott Allen  4:29  
We'll talk about your work because it's extensive. It's prolific. So what are some themes that have emerged from that work that you would love to share with listeners? What, what should we know about that stream of research?

Chellie Spiller  4:43  
All right, well, I'm very focused on wellbeing economies. So in New Zealand, our Treasury our reserve bank is committed to a well-being economy so around the idea that GDP is such an insufficient way of measuring the health of an economy. And that aligns really beautifully with Maori ideas around a well-being economy, which has been a steadfast view of how indigenous peoples view, prosperity. And that really means it taps into the idea that I think one of the key things that travel across indigenous cultures is this idea of sacred kinship with all of creation that we forget. For example, in the Maori worldview, we have a word called Whakapapa, which means genealogy. And we trace our genealogy, right back to a single point of origin or a coalescence point, as it were, where we are, we see ourselves as literally related to all of creation to rocks, trees, you know, sentiency and everything. And when you're moving from that, what I would call a root ontology. It really changes the way that we look at our role as stewards in this world.

Scott Allen  6:04  
Yes, it totally reframes it.

Chellie Spiller  6:08  
it totally reframes it. So where is say perhaps the Western culture is needing to rehabilitate, in some way because of the Cartesian Split, industrialization, globalization, in spite of the incredible disruptions of colonization on really indigenous peoples, they've retained this continuity of belief through the cultural transmissions through ceremony ritual that's been passed from one generation to the next. So there's this continuity of being in the world in which we are custodians of the planet. And that really changes the way leadership is active governance is carried out. And I'm really, really excited by what happens. In spite of all the disruptions that go on, we see people in all kinds of situations, taking into consideration the well-being of the environment, the well-being of communities, these spiritual well-being is really important, as well as economic growth and development. And sometimes they have to make conscious compromises. But they do that consciously. It's not rampant, unfettered growth.

Scott Allen  7:22  
The whole notion of a custodian, again, just reframes our time, our work, our purpose, reverses, I think what, at times we can default into, which is consumer, I take, and I consume, and it's not that consumer mindset of a custodian. Again, it just broadens the perspective.

Chellie Spiller  7:50  
It definitely broadens it, and it very much is an intergenerational view, as well. So it isn't just about, you know, the new generation, or us and our comfort, and our lifestyle. Of course, we all weren't comfortable ourselves. But from an indigenous point of view, you'll see these communities planning some 500 years out, you know, so they have these intergenerational plans because it's really important that his ancestors of tomorrow, that we're handing over assets, and I use that word in terms of the land, the environment, community, the social fabric, everything is handed over in a better shape than when we received it. So our task, as leaders, as people in governance, or whatever we're doing our task is to make sure the next generation is better than us. And we look to the past generations for guidance, because the kinds of values they have been passed down through the generations are values that teach us has been intimacy with the world has been a really good relationship with the world. So it's not just like a stilted retreat to the past. This is a living, dynamic adaptive system, what I call a consciously adaptive system.

Scott Allen  9:02  
What are some of the Chellie, were some of the interfaces, similarities between conceptions of leadership and maybe, you know, the western kind of notion of what a leader is, and some of the indigenous perspectives on the topic of leadership? Are there similarities in some cases, and then maybe what are some of the, I mean, we've talked about potentially some of the differences, a wider perspective, it's not simply the bottom line, it's long term and intergenerational, it's not next quarter.

Chellie Spiller  9:39  
Of course, you'll see many, you know, Western businesses with that mindset as well. We know the suit economy and sustainable business where they are looking for much longer-term views intergenerationally themselves, they're looking to create multi-dimensional wellbeing, not simply chasing a profit. There's some connectedness I guess around, you know when you look at stakeholder theory, but the difference perhaps being that indigenous communities have stakeholders in perpetuity. So there's no free entry and exit of stakeholders. So that's one kind of difference. I guess in terms of leadership theory, we might say that relational, distributed leadership, there is a reason it's there with indigenous approaches to leadership. But I adamantly believe we cannot shoo one indigenous leadership theory into Western theories, the base that Western theories can do is illuminate some aspect of indigenous leadership, because indigenous leadership is a whole belief system, a whole philosophy ontology. And it's a way of life. So it can't really be fragmented and understood through the lens of Western theory. So we tried to use wisdom theory around leadership just to illuminate aspects of what's going on in the indigenous world. What are some of the other tensions in it? Sometimes the differences aren't massive, they're just a question of emphasis. But in our classes with Maori and other Indigenous students, we really help them navigate those tensions at that interface in between, because, they're not living in silos, they have to navigate different worldviews. Sometimes it's easier to be either or not both/and. So the real challenge is how do we move forward and the complexities the nuance, the ambiguities, the tensions of it, that interface and make wise decisions?

Scott Allen  11:42  
How do you think about that moving forward? through those tensions? In your experience, what has been the best approach in navigating those?

Chellie Spiller  11:57  
Sometimes it's out-and-out activism.

Scott Allen  12:00  
Okay. Okay.

Chellie Spiller  12:01  
I think, you know, I mean, one thing about...I really, the courage and resilience in that have kept indigenous ways of being livelihoods/outlooks going, it's just the seeds of we will not be crushed, and despite, huge adversities, your savings communities, you know, staying steadfast. But to do that, they really have had to step up and speak out and really take action. So in America, we've got the Indian Collective. Over here, kind of an international case study was when the Whanganui River was given legal personhood. Now that has happened through indigenous leadership from one generation to the next, battling in the courtrooms to ensure that the river was seen as a living entity and indivisible living entity that no one can own and that the local Maori, custodians and they have a deep relationship with the river. So all of these things come about because of this dialogue as a part of it, Scott, but it's it really has required resistance and activism as well, you know, and we wrote a paper that was published in human relations last year, we call it paradigm warriors. We go right back to the roots of Maori in this case, is paradigm warriors who know who really stepped forward and are prepared to overturn the status quo and service of a better world and a better life. And it takes courage. And it takes humility. And it takes intergenerational belief.

Scott Allen  13:43  
Well, yes, I mean, I'm sure sometimes it takes legal action. In some cases, it takes activism. And I mean, it's probably across the board as to how we facilitate change and how we, how we facilitate change. I mean, it's incredibly difficult to work.

Chellie Spiller  14:02  
Standing Rock Sioux is another great example of, you know, people coalescing around there, you know, the Dakota pipeline and wanting to keep communities safe, but also the environment protected. And it was just such a gathering of indigenous people and allies from all walks of life coming together to support and Standing Rock Sioux and their endeavor.

Scott Allen  14:26  
Well, I think I watched a documentary over the weekend, which was called LFG. And I can't say what that stands for, because there's a swear word in there. But it's about the US women's soccer team that really to advance their notion of equal pay, had to sue us soccer because they weren't stepping up and they weren't doing what was right and providing equal pay for equal work. So yes, I mean, there are so many different levers from which to kind of choice as far as how to facilitate change, but you're right activism and the danger and the struggle and the persistence, even in this one simple documentary, or walked in, I watched another documentary over the weekend, about the civil rights movement in the United States. There's fear, there's, there's violence, there's so much embedded in shifting the culture and doing what's right, unfortunately, right?

Chellie Spiller  15:30  
We had a special issue in Leadership that came out earlier this year, and it was on race and leadership. And then one of those papers, we explored the idea of silence as well, all the different forms of silence around these really tricky topics. They're tough topics to talk about sometimes. And because they're so difficult and fraught people can feel uncomfortable very quickly. And so they, they keep silent about it not because, you know, they're filled with loathing or hate, but they just, it's just too uncomfortable to talk about, they don't feel safe, they're worried about saying the wrong thing. So it really encourages people to, you know, to become allies, to learn more, to connect to watch those documentaries. And you know, to be willing to be opened up and go on a journey of discovery to learn more about indigenous leadership, in particular race and leadership. And in their journey of discovery, it may not be comfortable. And it may require some kind of fragmenting. I love that word discover, because to discover means to dis-cover, to break up to fragment in some way. But as Lena Cohen said, you know, that's how the light gets in. And that's how we get a new perspective is by being willing to get uncomfortable to learn and break up and open up our worldview.

Scott Allen  16:51  
So what are some other? I love how you framed it? I'm kind of going back a little bit in our conversation. But I loved how you framed that, you know, you can't even really separate leadership, from the whole, would you talk a little bit more about the whole? What are some ways of being in the whole? Does that make sense? My question?

Chellie Spiller  17:13  
I think so! You know Maori relational approaches to holism. And the way I use this word, sphere intelligence, see it intelligence includes anteriority, our spiritual well being our relationships with the world, with all of creation, and we try to really look at it all elements of a situation so it's kind of you know, is sort of taking creative intelligence out intuition and reading the signs and the environment and people as well as our rational logic, of course, but we're not getting stuck in those corridors, rational logic, you know, straight-jacketed having to make decisions based on what spreadsheets tell us or, you know, just a very limited aspect of our intelligence. So we...I make the difference between sphere intelligence and in square intelligence, square intelligence being no before cells and spreadsheets, that rationalist that logic that can really dictate our path, instead of stepping back pausing, and just having that time to reflect and look around and tap into the wisdom within us as well. So I think, you know, we can get really caught up sometimes in leadership roles in this square world. And the invitation of indigenous holistic thinking is to enter a spherical world that's more rounded, where we show up as whole people. And I guess it is that world of both/and. It's more interwoven, relational, about the group relationships, group harmony, group harmony, and group accomplishments, process orientation. In a case, if you contrast that too sometimes the western worldview, and I don't like generalizing, because it sounds because so many people, colleagues, especially, you know, in the leadership space, you know, they're not entirely individualistic, but if we were just remotes about the Western world has really uplifted the idea of that individual, the self. And, you know, the analysis of parts and reductionism, personal achievement, can be quite linear sometimes, you know, this is "this is where we're going to go" and the "goal conquering/deadline orientation. So I think there are some of them, the ways in which we try and navigate or I call it this word in ambicultural, which is taking the strengths of all and you know, really trying to be ambidextrous, and in the way that we want to move in the world and use the strengths of all cultures to make really wise decisions and Rivers of the future ecology and communities.

Scott Allen  20:05  
beautifully said, You answered. Beautifully said, would you talk a little bit about...New Zealand obviously receives a lot of pres across the world in recent months, over the last 18 months because of how, how it reacted to COVID-19. And, you know, as a leadership scholar, and again, you have these multi, these many interfaces in different communities and different perspectives, whether that's higher education. How did you experience that from? From a leadership standpoint? Did you feel that it was a leadership win for Jacinda Ardern? Or did you feel that it was how did you experience it? I mean, what was your lived experience of that? 16-18 months? And I'm sure we're still obviously, we're still immersed in it on some level. 

Chellie Spiller  20:58  
Yes, it's still unfolding. And of course, our borders are, you know, quite shut. And I mean, a relatively small portion of the population has been vaccinated, I think, 500,000 as we speak. Well, I do feel that my sense of Jacinda's leadership was really appropriate and relevant. Right right from the beginning, she was decisive. She also really made it clear that this was a collective and diverse use term like "team of five million." You know, it was very distributed in the sense that everyone felt like everyone's taking personal responsibility. And if they weren't, they were quickly outed, where they use this language of a team of five million came through too, you know, to be kind to each other was very much a word that Jacinda was using last year to be kind to be safe. So I think that was a notable record right throughout the New Zealand population, standing beside who was Dr. Ashley Bloomfield, so Fauci's counterpart is in New Zealand. And they did a survey on his leadership style and 78% of respondents said that his style was very humble, clear, unambiguous. And so feel to that he embodied a really important style of leadership around maybe that's his scientific, you know, his medical training. He was very had strong composure, and this humble respect, I think, Kiwis really appreciate that. And we also saw Maori leaders, some of them stepped up, and they put up roadblocks to stop people from entering different regions. And that was, you know, controversial because some things "you can't breach my rights by putting up a roadblock." But they did. And I think this comes back to this idea of courage again, and I, you know, they was doing that to protect vulnerable populations inside these territories, not just Maori. But all people because in some of these regions, you know, the health is poorer than others so, innovators took decisive action to so I think there are so many examples of leadership across the country, one small invoke that collectively, it felt like a very safe place to be.

Scott Allen  23:17  
or Brad, Brad Jackson, he kind of described it, as, you know, people rowing in the same direction. And of course, there were some people who were not. But if you have enough rowing in the same direction, then, you know, and we had a wonderful conversation about "place." I mean, he's so focused on some of that work around the place. And I've even heard some of that and, and how you've spoken today, that place is critical, and it's important and it's essential to be cognizant of. I loved and I'd never thought of a river. Explain that. Again. It was a river that was given rights. It was a river that was seen as an individual. I love that.

Chellie Spiller  24:03  
Yeah, it was given legal personhood. So it's got equal rights akin to a person. It's a phenomenal precedent. And yes, it's seen as an indivisible and living whole. It's about 290 kilometers long. It's its own journey has been a troubled one as well as a river. You know, it's been partitioned off, it's been sold its head, the gravel extraction, chemicals pouring into/been polluted. It's lifeforce, what we call the Modi, the life force of that river, and it was treated very cruelly. And so for this river itself to be set free from the dominion of industrialization, as well as you know, we're not just looking at it in terms of people's right to be custodians of that river. We're looking at it in terms of that river's right, to be well, and I think it's um, you know, it's a courtroom battle that's been happening since the 1800s. But one generation of Maori leaders, after the next, took out that Baton and carried on the fight, so that the river, you know, could return to wellness again, and it's Modi return

Scott Allen  25:23  
That's an incredible story has that been written about? Has that story been told?

Chellie Spiller  25:28  
It has been told, and from what I understand, India, and Bangladesh have now started endowing with those with legal rights, with legal personhood, as well. And, you know, imagine if it was amplified all around the world and our waterways, you know, report to well-being again so that they know they could be the living entities that they are in this comes back to nurture/place that we really care about our place. And we care about not just the tangible aspects of it, that the intangible spiritual well-being the lifeforce of our places that we live in. And it really changes the relationship. You know, it's not just, it's not just a stakeholder. It's this idea of co-evolution that humans and place are co-evolving together and symbiotic relation,

Scott Allen  26:21  
yes. And if humans have that broader perspective of what that means, that can be incredibly powerful. And unfortunately...

Chellie Spiller  26:31  
it comes back to our deep sense of belonging to belonging, not only to our families, our friends, our communities, but belonging to a place and belonging to the world to the planet, as well. So it really deepens this idea of what it means to belong. And then some recent research, I've been looking at Rovelli's work on quantum physics and he talks about relational quantum. And the idea that nothing exists outside of the relationship. That's kind of an indigenous way of looking at it we self actualize, in a relationship probably would have caught I mean, in a way, you know, these conversations that people like Rovelli are having around relational quantum is really interesting because it's sort of like a form of a root ontology. I would call it that indigenous peoples, they know that interconnectedness, interdependency, this relational aspect, and when you've got science saying, nothing exists outside of the relationship.

Scott Allen  27:39  
there you go. Well, you said recently, what else have you been thinking about recently or writing about recently? What's been on your, on your radar?

Chellie Spiller  27:50  
Following this consciousness, so I am consciousness and leadership, they had a special issue on you know, critical views of authentic leadership. And I wrote a short paper/thought piece for that, and really looked at this idea of indigenous I am consciousness. So moving from the authentic self, and kind of critiquing it from the level of when we look at "to thine own self be true," which came out of Shakespeare, self-centeredness, narcissism, and say "well, what does it mean from an indigenous perspective to conceive of the self?" and with this view of "I am" and that we trace, we understand ourselves in relationship to everything around us, including ancestral lines, including, you know, our Whakapapa, as I say, their genealogy. So I think to frame it from a Maori perspective, when we introduce ourselves to each other Scott, we, we say our Pepiha, so we...I would describe myself [Maori Introduction]. And there's a really short one, and they go on for much longer than it because basically saying, this is my sacred mountain. This is my sacred ocean. This is my sacred river. You will know me through these through this place, through the places that I belong to that I'm sharing with you right now. And this is, this is how we introduce ourselves to each other. We don't just go Hi, I'm Chellie. And I'm a professor at the University of Waikato and a title. Those are the last things we mentioned. I wouldn't even mention the title by the way. I've mentioned the title, it's not good. Now, what's important is these, you know, this way that I have emerged from the place and belong to a place and my kin kinship relations. So this idea of Whakapapa is not it's right across the indigenous world, but in this particular paper, I also look at the ancient Celtic poet, Amergin and he casts out this poem, and it's the most beautiful poem, which resonates with a Maori perspective, very much. We had a workshop in London some years ago. And we opened up with everybody exploring and sharing themselves in this way. And right from the beginning, people were crying, it was right on the head of an industrial estate. And in the heart of London, we had physicists, eretrians were people from all right, here's my background. And we just felt like we were in this bubble of time where people were sharing from this really deep place. And in some months after that workshop, I received an email from people saying that it was just so special for them and that they were tracing their lineage from often journeys across the world, really to the roots.

Scott Allen  30:59  
Or even when you introduce yourself, I got goosebumps. I mean, it's just so powerful. It's such a, it's a more holistic, well it's a sphere.

Chellie Spiller  31:08  
And it's just one of the most simple things, and yet the most profound, and in our whole, all kinds of workshops, and just taking that time to sit with each other in a circle. And hear the story of a person that the journey that the ancestors took, the wisdom that's been transmitted, the places that they belong to. And that just, you know, you just start seeing a person really differently. It's such a sacred thing to be doing, and to be giving it you know, all that year time, we had down from Chinese leaders one year, and I remember spending...we were planning this encounter between Maori leaders, Chinese leaders, and it was for a whole day, everyone was sitting in a circle, in a boardroom kind of seeking mode. And the whole day was taken up by introductions, and just getting to know each other, hearing each other's background stories. And that relationship building is very common across indigenous as well as many Asian societies and cultures, is taking the time to really establish trust and understand venues. So I'll show read out this poem, first invocation by the legendary poet Armigen, and it was spoken sometime between 400-700 BC when he first set foot upon Ireland is part of a Milesian fleet. So it's been called by some the first Irish poem [see show notes for poem]. And when I first read that poem, and I recognize this ancient way of expressing who we are in this world. And that sense of belonging and relationship and respect and mutuality coming through and, and how not. And then, of course, in the same paper, I look at an African view of this as well. In the end, you'll see across all these different cultures, this extraordinary way of invoking ourselves and consciousness. And I think it's really exciting. It's not the easiest route, I think it is, I say in the article, it requires leaders to go beyond the daily grind in the grooves of our self and hold a more expansive, feeling connected, vision for humanity. Because more than ever, we really need leaders who are willing to take out this bigger, larger, more holistic way of leading and truly commit to their own journey in that process.

Scott Allen  34:19  
There's just so much knowledge and wisdom. I published an episode on Plato and Aristotle and, and Machiavelli, three or four weeks ago, and it was a really fun conversation because that's one it's a source of knowledge, right? But I think we are missing out on an incredible wealth of perspectives and important voices that are critical to our future, and mindsets and ways of thinking. Again, the notion of the sphere. It's expansive, it's holistic. It's not one-dimensional. And I think sometimes in the West, our thinking can be very one-dimensional. What is the bottom line? "Well, they were a great leader because they produce shareholder value." And, okay, one dimension. But what is that doing to that river? To your point, I live in a community, Cleveland, Ohio, where our river was on fire - a few times! And that's what we were producing. I just really, really appreciate your perspective.

Chellie Spiller  35:21  
I'm not even I'm a big believer that we all have this DNA throbbing in our veins. And there, that's for many people that may be a "great returning," but I do see a huge longing around the world for things to be different. And out of that trap, I guess, and it to talk about leadership, you know, in terms of shareholder value, of course, the people that can be really successful in leadership when for a certain period of time, but what we often see is that when those leaders leave those organizations, everything can start to frame all of that. So from an indigenous perspective, there is not successful leadership, successful leadership is in the success is succession when you're making the next generation of leaders rather than oneself. And we're really taking care of our environment, our people, well being at all levels, that is successful leadership. So we do need to look at our measures of you know, what success looks like in that bottom line, which is still very dominant. And, and GDP is still very dominant. So you know, we hit it, I take my head off to New Zealand government for, you know, moving towards bringing the well-being economy and reframing....moving from pure "wealth," and in W-E-A-L-T-H to "Welth" which is an old English word for wellbeing, saying we are committed to the well being of our people in our environment.

Scott Allen  36:51  
Chellie what have you been listening to or streaming or reading? It may have something to do with what we've been discussing, it may have nothing to do with what we've been discussing. But what have you been consuming that's caught your eye as of late?

Chellie Spiller  37:07  
Carlo Ravalli's latest book came out just recently and I can't say I understand it. But it's all these bits that I feel I resonate with. But my reading is, is really quite wide. I look at my Kindle, and I can tell you exactly. I just read a fantastic book by Kazuo Ishiguro, and it's Klara in the Sun. And I really, really enjoyed it. And then moving on from that met to take the Matt Haig. So because at night time, you know, I...

Scott Allen  37:44  
My wife just finished that book, she loved it.

Chellie Spiller  37:47  
It really fitted so beautifully to the whole quantum thing to me.

Scott Allen  37:52  
But I've been reading Something Deeply Hidden by Sean Carroll, which is kind of the many-worlds theory, of quantum. And again, I don't understand half of it. But I too have a fascination. I wish I wish I wish I would have paid more attention. It happened when Pythagorean's Theorem was introduced for me. And numbers became letters and then all of a sudden the guy upstairs just shut down. And I wish that wouldn't have happened because I have so much love and appreciation for physics and quantum mechanics and I want to learn it. I want to I'm not there yet.

Chellie Spiller  38:29  
Yeah, I'm definitely not here. But I love this idea of ancient cosmologies. And I know, for me, that's where I'm what Carlo Ravelli and his book were called Helgoland. And I'll look at Sean's work, there's this idea of relationships. And when we look at the Dogon priests of Mali, the Babylonians, the ancient Egyptians, Maori is this kind of sense that there's a parent cosmology that's been laid down. And it's traveled through time alongside us and it hasn't been entirely ruptured or forgotten and so I'm really interested in some of these ancient notions like for Maori, we have this te Kore, which is a void. It's a void of potential from which all things emerge. So coming back to leadership, you know, we have - "From the void into the night and into the world of light." So the task for leadership is to release more light into the world in which we inhabit. But to do that, we're reaching into that void. And when you start to look at quantum and you've got unlimited, possibilities, emptiness voids, infinite possibilities, and wow - this is cool. I don't understand it all, but it's cool.

Scott Allen  39:51  
But you know what, that's how all of us continue to learn, grow, develop and stretch ourselves because I love being in conversations where I understand half of what It's being said, and then maybe next time I understand 55% I just kind of stick at it.

Chellie Spiller  40:08  
Scholarly inquiry, isn't it? It's, it's a little bit of curiosity and inquiry and being stretched. And I don't know about you, Scott. But you know, I think one of our occupational hazards is, you know, our brains just so busy, busy, busy. So I do read things that don't trigger my mind in the evening so much just more like kind of general and less active. And of course, getting out into the world and walking and letting nature be the healer, and the recalibrated is absolutely vital to my worldview.

Scott Allen  40:41  
So well said, well, Chellie, it's been so wonderful meeting you today. Thank you very, very much for joining me and, and helping me better understand your work. I can't wait to explore this topic. How can people learn more?

Chellie Spiller  40:56  
I guess I have a website (chelliespiller.com) so they could just check them out these people floating around on it, only to update on is a tech talk on Wayfinding leadership that I did. Wayfinding leadership draws on the experience of Polynesian navigators, the oceanic navigators journey without using any instruments, they read the signs and the world around them. And that's, that's very popular. You know, this, we did a book, I just have so many organizations wanting Wayfinding leadership both here, here in New Zealand, and also all around the world. I really love the fact that you can be in Cleveland, Ohio, and I can be here and we can do it feels very close and connected there really appreciate the conversation. And I really love the fact that we actually there's very emergent, and we didn't actually have a plan. So that has brought forward things that I feel the need. So thanks!

Transcribed by https://otter.ai