About Lauren Bullock and Dan Jenkins
Quotes from This Episode
Robert F. Kennedy Quote Eluded to by Scott
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
The No-Hitter Dan Witnessed (I think)
About Lauren Bullock and Dan Jenkins
Quotes from This Episode
Robert F. Kennedy Quote Eluded to by Scott
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
The No-Hitter Dan Witnessed (I think)
Today, I have Dan Jenkins and Lauren Bullock on the podcast. And this is gonna be a fun conversation because you all had me on as a guest, a few weeks back, and we had a great time and a really fun conversation. And today I said, all of the that'll be edited today. I said to each of you, I would love to know what you've been learning based on all of the podcasts that you've been doing. So for those of you listening, there's links in the show notes to the work that Dan and Lauren have been doing. And they have a great, great podcast series. And so today, that's what we're going to focus on. So maybe the two of you could do me a favor and just introduce yourself to the audience a little bit, and then we'll get into what are your learnings because you all have been on an adventure.
Lauren Bullock :Sure. So I'll get started. My name is Lauren Bullock and I work as an assistant professor of instruction at Temple University and I am a graduate student getting my doctorate in leadership and change management at Antioch University and I love podcasting. This is actually my second podcast. So I did the Leadership Nest in my prior job as the director of leadership at Temple. And then when Dan offered the leadership educator, I said yes, excitedly. And instantly I don't even think I had to think about it. It's like, Yeah, when do we get started? And so, yeah, I've been in the field unofficially since 2012. But I've always worked in higher education and I work at a large public institution and I've always worked at large public research universities. I've worked at Florida State and Texas. So been at Temple for 12 years and just really excited to be here today.
Scott Allen :And Lauren, you are excited about MLB.
Lauren Bullock :I am I'm wearing my New York Yankees shirt. I'll give you a quick story. So the women in my family are huge baseball fan. So my grandmother was a Mets fan and my cousin older cousin, she was in her 90s when she died a few years ago, but she used to call in sick on the first day of Mets the Mets season, and she would pretend as if her coworkers didn't know she was this huge Mets fan and it Was this their opening day she pretended to be sick I can say that she's she's dead and she's since retired but um, I can say this now I don't call in sick but I do usually wear some Yankees gear and have been known to get it get Yankees gear for my husband for Valentine's Day. So I'm very excited about today.
Scott Allen :Well, they are Nemesis here in Cleveland, Ohio. And then our other Nemesis is where Dan's neck of the woods here the Boston Red Sox. So, Dan, would you introduce yourself real quickly?
Dan Jenkins :Glad to! So I'm Dan Jenkins. I'm chairman and Associate Professor of Leadership and Organizational Studies in beautiful Portland at the University of Southern Maine. been there since I'm going on my eighth year before that I was at the University of South Florida, working on my doctorate and curriculum and instruction with a focus on higher education, administration and working full time there, both as a professional academic advisor and also as an adjunct faculty member coordinating the leadership studies minor and was also teaching political science at the Hillsborough Community College. They're in the Tampa Bay area actually right across the street from where the Bucs play. And so oftentimes we would have to stay with the sports theme. Sometimes on Sundays, right around game time, I would say I need to get into my adjunct office, which was a much cheaper parking spot, then pretty much anywhere else. And so, but before that actually did, did bartend and do some beverage management at the stadium there for several years until I until I started working on my PhD and just didn't have the extra time on the weekends. So in any case,
Scott Allen :Well, and we've we've known each other for Dan, the two of us have known each other for almost a decade.
Dan Jenkins :That's right. That's right.Yeah, I've definitely reached out to you just over a decade ago.
Scott Allen :Yes, yes. And we've written a little bit together. And so I'm excited to hear about what you all are learning. And so, maybe that's where we start. What observations do you have based on the conversations you've been having? What do you think what stands out?
Dan Jenkins :I think that what stands out the most is just how much we have had to change and adapt as podcasters to everything else that's changing around us. You know, we, when when I reached out to Lauren, she shared and so you know, exuberantly said, "yes." And we jumped into this, this project. And if we go back to our, you know, first podcast of "Starting with Why" I think we still are following you know, that vision of we wanted to create a place in a virtual space in a podcast where we could share resources in order to develop and increase the capacity of leadership educators to do this work, whether they're in curricular, co-curricular spaces, mostly in higher education, but also outside of those contexts. And we didn't think that there would be this, you know, major disruption. And so we've responded, I think, in kind, both with some of our own processing of what's going on and how we're, you know, we're working through some of these challenges, but also adapting really quickly to, you know, having you on as a guest to talk about some of the ways that you've been adapting your virtual environments and Zoom meetings, and things of that nature to teach but also to, you know, different guests to find out like, "you had to change a conference at the drop of a hat. How'd you do that and make it a virtual conference, you had to start teaching online, you had to start, you know, doing this or that or changing your entire co-curricular leadership program, you know, in a week's time, and how did you make decisions," and so we had set out to have a very different, quote, unquote, second season than what we actually ended up doing. And we're going to wrap that up next week with our last episode in that group. And then we're looking forward to you know, to the fall into probably late summer as as we're starting to interview some folks and it what we had planned, I think, as I heard season originally is not going to be what we ended up with, we're really trying to reach out to folks that are experts in different layers and levels and fields of leadership development within higher education to share with our listeners, like "how do you do this? How do you do that? How do you work with you know, DEI questions, how do you work with with athletics," and there's just so many great ideas that Lauren has has come up with and that I've come up with, that were that we've translated into into guests, and we're just we're super excited about who we're going to have on over the next few few months.
Lauren Bullock :Oh, yeah,definitely very excited.
Scott Allen :Yeah. Well, and so adaptability, right?
Dan Jenkins :That's right.
Scott Allen :You guys had a very powerful episode I listened to after the incident with George Floyd, you've explored a number of very, very important topics, and and adapted on the fly.
Lauren Bullock :Well, I think what helps us is our approach isn't always from the "we know everything about leadership." But it's like we know these things. And we're curious about what other people have to say. And I think our podcast, and this was our strategic message from the beginning about really continuing those conversations, we've been able to expand the space in which we have those conversations, as well as extend the access to other people who might not know. Like, I know that I'm interacting with people who might not have heard about some of the associations that we talked about, like our second season, it was a big deal that we talked to everybody in ILEC. And we said, you know, here are the things that make these spaces really unique. And here's how based on what your values, what your approaches, how they can help transform your career. And so I think a lot of it is just being very strategic with our message from the beginning about what we wanted to do being very adaptable, like, you know, there's probably two seasons worth of material in just season two. But also, you know, that kind of helped us stay the course and really make decisions about who we were going to reach out to, and why and what we were going to learn. But I definitely think what what I love the most is we've now expanded the number of people who are believing almost that their leadership educators because we're reaching an entirely new group.
Scott Allen :Oh, that's awesome. Well, and really quickly define ILEC for the audience, and also, what what have you learned from those different conversations with folks in those different organizations?
Dan Jenkins :Sure yah. So the ILEC it's an acronym for the Inter Association Leadership Education Collaborative, so that was ideated by a group of leadership educators, both in curricular and co curricular spaces around I want to say 2012 or 2013. And the idea there which was lovely by Craig Slack, who longtime leadership educator I think 30 years in the field we actually had him on as a guest to talk about his work there, University of Maryland, as well as directing the National Clearinghouse for Leadership Programs and the member associations for basically any higher education focused professional association that had leadership educators have some of their members, there are some like the Association of leadership educators where every single member is you know, it's not just a clever name, is a leadership educator. Then there are some like NASPA, which is a large Student Affairs focus professional association, where some of the individuals, you know, actually a pretty large chunk, maybe you know, 40 or 50% do identify in that space, whether they work with Greek life or student activities, but there are also faculty and individuals that work in higher education spaces that are not leadership educators and so also student unions professional association, not soon activities, professional associations. I'm ACPA, I'm going to I'm going to leave one out of the International leadership Association. And so it was just great to talk to those two individuals and all those associates and let them give him a place to share some of the great resources and and other professional development types of opportunities that they have for leadership educators.
Scott Allen :Well and what have you learned? What What stands out to you? Geez, that's such a tough question, right? Because this is just like a walking learning experience. Right? So on the one hand, you know what I've really appreciated and I don't know if it's learned, but I think it's more affirmed, but it's true the leadership community is really connected. So the Kevin Bacon six degrees of separation thing is like one and a half in leadership. I'm like, for example, like Scott, you and I may end up having the same dissertation committee chair and it may be 15 ish years. I mean, I don't want to date anybody but it may be yeah, and the way I'm going it may be another decade before I finished - not putting that in there, but - but but through our podcast, we were connected in this space. And I just feel like one of the things that's really affirming about the podcast is it feels like a community it feels like a lead like a leadership family of folks and I don't say that this disingenuinely but it's it's we're able to laugh or With the talk, we're able to share our knowledge, ask questions incite people to be more curious in this space. And this podcast is, I don't think I learned it, but I think I affirmed it. Yeah, I did go back and do a lot of reading after we talked to different people. And I learned a lot about the history of some of the associations. And and I guess, I'll say this, and I think it was the ILA episode with Shelly. And she just shared how you could tell her values were so transparent, because she just shared how much she cared for leadership educators and she wanted her to do the best job she wanted. She wanted leadership educators to do their best job and she felt like very committed to being a part of that process. And it was so motivating because we teach leadership so our expectations and standards, the people that are watching us like are higher, and we have to practice what we preach. There's like little wiggle room. And it was just affirming to in these conversations, see how people are doing that work. being vulnerable a little bit but really trying to earnestly do that work to help make our world better. It sounds so cheesy, "after school special" but It's who I am. Well, you, you, you talked about learning. I mean, that's, that's a theme that for me has just really been a thread whether it's purchasing Jon Wergin's book after I spoke with him, or Kathy Allen after I spoke with her Ron Riggio sent me an article after we spoke and Susan Murphy sent me in, which then really served as a foundation for my conversation with Susan Murphy. Barbara Kellerman wanted me to read before we spoken, so I did and, and, of course, after my conversation with Julie Owen, and I learned, I have a lot to learn in this space. So that's, that's been humbling. I mean, you exist in a profession for a number of years, and you think you have a command, and there are so many nooks and crannies, if you aren't, if you aren't on top of it, you get behind and I think and I think that's a learning for me, for sure is there's so much, there's so many different perspectives and so much learning that can occur through this medium as it as an impetus, right?
Dan Jenkins :Yeah, it's good. I think, I think what I learned, so there was little bit of affirmation, I think to, you know, to echo what Lauren said, I think it was definitely reaffirming. Thinking back to our, the so the first episode we ever did last December was one called who are leadership educators, I shared some of the research I've done a study of 13 leadership educators from around the country back in 2014. And one of the major findings from that that study was not only that leadership, educators really see themselves in somewhat of a "helping field," but how much they emphasize the development of others, whether it be adult development, human development, leadership, development, obviously, so many different forms of development. And that was paid forward in the way that they approached every single interview that we've had not every single one of our podcast has had a guest but every guest that we've had on has been so generous with their time, you could tell in the stories that they shared in the way that they approached being a guest, how much they were invested in developing others whether it be bringing them into the association, giving them resources, giving other people opportunities whether it be students or young professionals or what have you, and it just echoes and resonates through the stories that that we've been able to facilitate. I would say to that we've been affirmed that what Lauren and I are doing is beneficial and helpful and actually making an impact and a positive impact to to the field you know, folks have said, "wow, thank you for doing this." I can't say how many times which we don't expect our guests to say is not only like thanks for having me on as a guest you know, humbled or what have you, "but thanks for doing this thanks for creating this this forum for this because we really don't have as many professional resources and development resources for leadership educators as we feel that we should," and so and that's our that's our you know, drop in the in the bucket or splash in the pond or whatever you want to call it. We hope that we hope that others you know, follow suit and, and I love your podcasts that you've been able to put together although slightly different angle but these are needed, particularly for our field and for you for the professionals, and for leadership educators trying to get better at doing this work and certainly, how things are adapting so quickly with with our move to, you know, to virtual and technology enhanced spaces. Totally, When I don't think I don't think it's a drop in the bucket. I think it's your ripple. I'm going to post the RFK quote in the show notes, but I think I think you're making a ripple. I'm comfortable with that. I'm comfortable with that.
Scott Allen :What else what else is standing out for you?
Lauren Bullock :I'll say this really quickly. I feel like I wish I sometimes wish the conversations Dan and I had during planning we're recorded because we have some really, they're good and funny. We always start out with kind of what's going on in the house. And there's there's this like personal side to this, like "How are the kids? How's the wife? How are you doing? Are you stir crazy in this global pandemic? How are you doing with civil unrest?" So there's this personal side of it, and it just, um, but but I think, Dan and I've had some really conversation good, really good conversations and generated questions and ideas that we want to ask other people, and we feel like you know if we as leadership educators in our professions are asking these questions than we know there are other people out there. And oftentimes, it's like, what kind of Who do you know that? Okay, let's do a Google search. And let's see what we can find. And so it's just this added level of learning. And I think it all ties in with the thought that you know, the more you learn the gorilla, the more you realize you have so much more to learn. And I think that that's been one of the bigger things for this because I mean, cuz it's a lot of work. I mean, oh, yeah. 30 minutes, 40 minutes show. And there's probably like, Dan, how many I mean, we meet regularly without recording
Dan Jenkins :Right.
Lauren Bullock :And then behind the scenes, like, I know, we're sending each other emails all the time and just doing so much work. And I love it, and it's great, but it's a lot of work to get to get to this space. So I just anybody that's trying to start, just take something, don't do it during a dissertation, take some things children away, whatever you got to do, but just know that you know, it's more than just kind of sitting down and just talking about what's up what you know, but to do a really good genuine podcasts, there's just a lot of work that goes into it.
Dan Jenkins :Yeah, I think we were wise early on, and certainly, you know, learning you having the podcast experience that you did, I went in knowing that, "hey there, we're gonna have to set out, you know, a couple hours a week minimum, just to keep this thing going. Whether we record or have guests at these particular times, or just like you said to check in" and those hours, those two hours fly by, yes. And it's so fun to just talk to this person, or we could talk to that person. Or we could ask Scott or we could have Julie Owen on or, you know, so we, you know, we've been in some of the same space as Scott with with some of our guests and but at the same time, there's just so I mean, if you saw the Google Doc that I'm looking at it now it's about 30 pages long, you know, the one that Lauren and I share, and it's just like, we'll never, there's not enough hours in our lives, to be able to interview all the different guests that and all and to cover all the different topics that that we have which which I think just speaks to like, like what Lauren said, if we're thinking about this, other people are thinking about this too. And and that affirmation of what some of the guests have shared with us. It's like yeah, like more of that, I wish we could talk more. And sometimes we have to cut people out for like, "we can't let the podcast go like two hours"
Scott Allen :Yes. Well, and so are you guys noticing the two of you noticing any gaps based on the conversations you've had? So for instance, I lik, what are some opportunities there that exists? Maybe some paths forward that we aren't seeing right now?
Lauren Bullock :I think the biggest gap and this is one of the recent conversations Dan, and I've had it's centers around the the intersection with the diversity, equity, inclusion and leadership theories. In general, like the DEI workers, the folks that I engage with know critical race theory and in the diversity theories, leadership folks I work with most of them know the leadership theories, but we're finding these pockets of folks that are talking about leadership and social justice together and how its integrated in the same fashion that leadership is integrated into business or integrated into communication. I think right now it's a beautiful thing to on unearth, especially considering that most of the young people that we're working with now that are traditional 18 to 23, 24, college age, they understand and get the diversity work they get they know you're supposed to be diverse, their friends have always been diverse. And we as leaders now have to kind of backtrack and educate ourselves. Because we're not prepared. We're not where they are. Just period. Like I when I talk about diversity in my class, I teach a class called leading groups in team building. And there's one session where we hyper focus on what diversity truly means in groups and teams. And my students inevitably start out with, "Oh, yeah, we get it, we get it. We're just waiting on our leaders to get it." And so for me, I really kind of struggle with that, like, where I lie and say, I'm 25, but I may or may not be near 40-45. And so it's my people, that kind of have to get out of the way of these young people sometimes. And so it we're unearthing and having those discussions and trying...we're not there. We haven't figured it out, but it's One of those things that like we know if we're thinking about it, and our news is thinking about it, we know other people are thinking about it, and they want to in the same way we do justice to, you know, the Leadership Challenge. They want to do the same justice and feel comfortable and talking about it. And so I think that's definitely one thing that I've seen emerge, trying to think anything else. Dan, you got anything? Yeah, you got something.
Dan Jenkins :Of course, I do, we can do the show without Scott, right?
Scott Allen :I'm not even here anymore. You guys just are talking.
Dan Jenkins :So to piggyback off of what you were sharing about, you know, diversity, equity and inclusion. This also came up yesterday I was part of the International leadership association is hosting what's called free online critical conversations. The topic is "how can leadership educators respond to our changing world" and it's a group of 10 facilitators that I'm a part of called leadership education Academy. We had actually planned to do this very intensive three and a half day experience for the for the fourth time. It's a banana I'm experienced, but that got postponed just like many other things, due to due to COVID. And one of the things that that came up several times during some of the group small group breakouts that we have, we had about 90 people attend on the first one yesterday. And it was about, "I need activities, and I need to build my capacity to have these conversations around diversity, equity and inclusion. Where do I go for this information?" Who, and there are some experts, for sure, but there are not a lot of experts, and oftentimes, and we wrote about this, and I didn't write about it, but Kerry Priest and I edited a recent New Directions for student leadership journal about this and one of the chapters was about leadership educators and social justice educators, because oftentimes, it falls on the lap on the responsibility of leadership educators like, "Hey, y'all teach leadership like you know how to deal with diversity and equity and inclusion, how to teach it and how to have these really difficult conversations about everything that's going on right now. Like you guys got this right?" And some of us have some experience, but no, we don't Got this and some of these conversations yesterday and that Lauren and I have had and some of the guests that we've had too is like, "hey, this stuff is hard, and we're struggling too." And it's not only struggling with, you know, di issues, but also the pandemic and crises, like, while there are some experts that have talked about crisis and leadership and in higher education, and you know, the ILA did a webinar with Ralph Gigliotti, who wrote a great book on crises in higher education, I think was published, like just the right time, like there are not hundreds of experts on on these areas. However, you know, we've been kind of tasked with, "Hey, y'all know how to deal with this right? crisis is just one of the things we teach," you know, it's just a big it's just one service we offer you got it.
Scott Allen :Similar similar observations on my part, again, I go back to my conversation with Julie Owen and I left that conversation just flat footed. And if it's if it's conversations about diversity, equity and inclusion, I'm also flat footed. I'm in the in the mode of those spaces of just trying to learn, learn a lot. And and that's, that's the space I'm in right now. But I love what you're saying because I don't necessarily feel prepared to facilitate those conversations facilitate that dialogue. It's those are situations where I don't want to make a mistake. But I also, it's it's critical, It's important. So I'm learning. I'm learning a lot, but I couldn't agree with you more, Lauren, that that's that that's a space. You know, I think of the work of John Dugan, have you all spoken with John?
Lauren Bullock :Not yet. I would love to have john and the MSL work in the leadership theory book that he put out a few years ago.Write that down... It seems to me that that's one of the closest Dan Would you agree that that's that his work is some of the closest that starts getting to the critical theory...
Dan Jenkins :I'd say and, and and Julie Owen's book after that, you know, focusing specifically on like women and gender issues and some of the race issues is as well yeah, there's there's really not much out there. I know that there's a, and I swear it's not going to come to me, there's there's a book something effective, like "a short book about critical theory," or something like that. And the author's name isn't coming to me. But that is something that we have brought into a lot of the leadership educator workshops. In fact, that leadership education Academy, one of our lead facilitators, Ryan Satterwhite, who runs the Leadership Center at UNLV, he brought in critical theory as kind of like a short, like one off activity a couple times ago when we offer this and that got such a great response. He's like, "well, what if we made this like an even bigger part of the experience, because leadership educators are really hungry for thinking about things in these ways and challenging assumptions and really finding ways to apply their critical thinking because they want their students to do the same thing," particularly with our current political situation, and all the different challenges that we're facing as a society.
Lauren Bullock :I think I have two things to think about. The first thing I think about is as we're thinking about books, there's a really great book that I'm reading called, "Conversations in Black." It's by a reporter journalist named Ed Gordon. And in the book, he asked some really great questions around leadership in the black community. So for example, there's an entire chapter on former President Barack Obama and you know, ask the question, like, why is he great for black people. And so they have a bunch of thought leaders in the community that are educated as well as experienced in the community, and they have them respond, and he has a full book with a bunch of different topics. And even as a parent, like identify as black, even as a black person, there was so much that I needed to learn. And I think the second part to this and Dan and I have this conversation a lot, especially when we think about white men in the conversation of diversity. And like, we need everybody at the table. And we all need to kind of have similar plates. And, but I also feel like there's this overwhelming narrative that we don't need any white men at the table - "Y'all have talked forever sit down and shut up." And I just to me, in my experience, it feels like that's not what we really need. We don't need one person dominating, but we need everyome to feel like they can get you know, from my mom loves food. So I always use food metaphors. Everybody can grab from, you know, the buffet table, right? And everybody can eat from this table. And so I feel like it's this mixture of efficacy, confidence, and vulnerability that you have to approach this work with. And also, sometimes it's acknowledging your own ignorance like I in the diversity conversation, when I start the the conversation in my class, I say, you know, I don't know a lot about the trans community. It doesn't mean I'm like a hater. I love my LGBT+, friends specifically, though, I just don't have a lot of knowledge in within that community. And I tell them, like if I make a mistake, charge it to my heart, but also pull me aside and just let me know, because sometimes I just don't even know and i think in those spaces when you allow people to, a channel for feedback, that's not social media, like people. People go to social media because they don't have a channel like dialogic theory. They go to social media, because they don't have a channel to go directly to that organization or directly to that person. So I say, look, I offend, you know, my bad. It's not intentional. But in that space, I am just ignorant. And I've had people come up and say, well, you said "x" and you should have said why. And we had some good discussion around it. It's okay. Well, I believe "x" because of this, and, you know, but I also feel like you can't just like you can wouldn't fear stepping into a leadership role and like an organization, we can't, we can no longer afford to fear stepping into that conversation. We need everybody at the table. I'll step off my soapbox and get back to celebrate Major League Baseball today.
Scott Allen :This is gonna sound off base when I start the comment, but then I'm going to I'm going to bring it back back around. And if I don't just say, "stay on target." One observation I've had after all of these conversations, it was such a joy to listen to Susan Komives talk about her knowledge, it was such a joy to speak with Ron Riggio and hear him talk about transformational leadership. It was such a joy to speak with Kathy Allen about nature and systems and her, and it made me it makes me wish We had some formal forum where I would love to listen to Julie Owen and talk on her area of expertise for three hours. I don't have that outlet right now. I don't have that outlet of hearing Bruce Avolio speak about Transformational Leadership, or people who knew Jim Burns. Well, speaking about his work, there's a major gap. And there's an opportunity there too. I mean, Dan, you know this for years we've been, we've been going to ILA and if Ron Heifetz speaks everyone, "ah!!!" and you know, everyone goes and listens. But that's kind of your one shot, there isn't a forum for us to to connect with experts in any number of these different topics. Right? And, I think that's a gap. I think that's an opportunity because I've learned so much from hearing people John Wergin speak about adult learning and adult development. And what's most important in that work, I'm just sitting at his feet learning and taking it in. I agree with you both on topics that are areas of opportunity, but then how do we help even our leadership educators become better versed on teaching some of this content? Regardless of what the content is? I think there's an opportunity there.
Lauren Bullock :I agree.
Dan Jenkins :Yeah. Well it's interesting, Scott, we were debriefing this that conversation yesterday that we had with the the Leadership Education Academy team that ran those zoom conversations with the ILA. And one of the things that came apparent very quickly, as participants were asking for some of these resources was we're thinking about the academic conference cycle that we're all a part of in, you know, higher education. So a conference that happened even a couple weeks ago, those proposals were submitted in like January, February, maybe at the latest, could be the first week of March for a conference that's going to happen in November this year. All that stuff was due in like February, so none of the sessions and there might be some outliers are going to actually address some of the issues and challenges that we're facing right now. It won't be just because of this cycle in the system that we live in. There's not this forum. And so I think things like what what you're doing, what we're doing, what this critical conversations here, as you're doing, there is this form in this opportunity. And one of the things I know you and I talked about this, when we had you on about having guest speakers come in to Zoom, because yeah, now you have access to people where they might have said, "Oh, I'm too busy, or I don't know, but like," now everybody's using zoom, like, reach out to those guests that your dream guests and and i think yes, and what else can we be doing? Or is it having a live podcast? is it doing some type of like, you know, live live videocast of, of having some of these folks on because why do we wait to those two or three conferences that we have each year to have these conversations? We shouldn't, we shouldn't.
Scott Allen :I literally Dan had this thought the other day. My graduate course in leadership in the fall, I have modules, right? So there's a module on stressors and there's a module and leadership and followership styles. And there's every every week is a different module. So I was thinking about Julie's work because I've been reading her book and I would thought I should invite her to host this module. And it could be a faction of students who choose that module that week, but I was also thinking about a DEI topic with it could also be a module, where I may not be the expert, but I can facilitate the learning. Yes, just because Julie, isn't that John Carroll in some ways, COVID, the pandemic. has opened up some opportunities that maybe if we're thinking differently, because ultimately, we need a library. We need a library of people hearing you talked in about instructional strategies. We need a library Lauren, of what you just said about entering the space in some difficult conversations. We need a library that's helped that someone could. And then we need a library of just listening to Barbara Kellerman speak for like 10 hours she would have or have Ron Riggio for eight or 10 hours, because that creates a body of knowledge. And not to say that that, you know, there's only a few voices that can have these conversations, but that that baseline doesn't exist. I want to hear Bruce Avolio talk about leader development. And David Day, I want to hear them talk about that topic. I want to hear Susan Komives does talk about LID, I wanted to talk about it was funny when we were when we were organizing what she would talk about, she listed seven things, you know, we can talk about all these, you know, and so, I think there's so much opportunity there and I love how you're thinking, you know, it comes back to those conferences, the business model of those conferences, is "accept as many proposals as possible and invite, and then people come" in many cases And I think that takes away from potentially having a track where we are learning from hearing from Ken Blanchard on Situational Leadership. So it's a fun it's a fun thought experiment, because I think you're right. I don't think we have to wait till these two times a year to begin building. Let's do it you all let's enter another thing to our plates and start building Leadership Foundations Library.
Lauren Bullock :MMMM. So I am in strengthsfinder I am futuristic strategic and command. So I feel like you're like yeah, what Yeah, and I've got about 75 ideas I've got the people that we the I've got questions, so, but I got a video camera off is it like the old school one that used to go on your shoulder with the VHS VHS?
Scott Allen :Yeah, I'll go to their homes and just kind of put it on my shoulder and we'll videotape them talking.
Lauren Bullock :I dug out my son asked me Mom, can you get me the DJ thing? He's eight. And I was like, "what are you talking about" and he was referring to a record player and, and then. And then I was like, "well, there's one in the basement, interestingly enough," and he's like," what does it look like?" And I'm like, ah, like,
Dan Jenkins :let's go to the museum, right?
Lauren Bullock :Look, I'm with getting our VHS tapes out and, and recording folks. But I think you're really onto something. And I think this is something I've struggled with as the newcomer out of the trio in terms of jumping into this leadership space, because I'd worked in student activities, and I'd done leadership on a very surface level. And then I jumped into this director role, which I loved. And part of my job was administrative, like I knew how temple systems work, like I knew how to get people paid. Then the other half of my job is like really enacting our mission to teach students how to live and lead with integrity and meaning. And I was thinking about, like, what were those first books like The Handbook of Student Leadership Development was there? Yeah. But then beyond that, I didn't know and I couldn't find it innately. Kind of I wish there was like a leadership one on one site where I could go to and it's like, oh, you're taking department here, you're going to go to a grad program for leadership, here. You just want to know about leadership, like the history of leadership here. Yeah. And so I'm with it. I'm definitely with the exploratory part of that project.
Dan Jenkins :Yeah. And to it certainly is, gosh, it's come up so many times this, you know, been being part of like conference organizing teams, where we discuss what what if we had, you know, like an unconference track where people submitted their ideas and then facilitated You know, this or that, you know, at the drop of a hat from a logistics standpoint, you know, there's so many folks that are, you know, the those that are going to corral or have some control issues that are like, "but what if like this, like radical leadership educator comes in and starts, you know, doing this or that or smoke and mirrors or what have you or worse" and it's, it becomes like, you're attached to like, as you said, Scott, the business model, you know, you're attached to the brand of this profession association of that professional association, like how do you keep like tabs on something like that, that would be so just like emergent and like, you know, constructivist and but that's kind of what we need. And maybe it just takes someone or a group of folks that are, you know, we're all not affiliated with any particular leadership educators... trying to get together and come to our zoom meeting. And here's we're going to do Yeah, and I like that.
Scott Allen :And Ira Chaleff talks about followership and right and and Shana Fabiano talks about how she's thinking about followership, and we invite Robert Kelly, you know, to kind of discuss his seminal article, and we let Julie and John debate each other on critical theory and leadership. It would be awesome.
Lauren Bullock :I think so. The only thing I'll say is, I wonder like, who are the newer voices? Like, you know, what I mean, like, you know, we talk a lot about some of the folks that have, you know, set a wonderful path and we respect that. So, for example, I was working with a group SEALS, Society of Emerging Leaders for African Students. And, you know, they were naming their leaders and all of them were dead, and I'm like, oh, who's leading y'all now? Now like, you know what I mean? So I always think that question when we have this conversation, we're getting these thought leaders, and they're like, who are the young people? 25 like me? Who are the young people in the space that are that are starting to think and having these thoughts. Second part, though, is when people talk about kind of like we've always done it this way. I was thinking, what does your leadership research tell you, you should be telling your students to do, and all our leadership research talks about embracing change, really connecting with the people that were leading, you know, so if you're saying we need to stick with this, there's got to be some strong justification as to why that's needed in this place. I think that's something I learned from Mindful Leadership and Immunity to Change. those resources are great resources in terms of really breaking down that resistance to why folks are remaining the same as well. There's a book called temporary radicals. That's great. And it when people seek to change, they seek to change like at the top not realizing their personal power. So you can change like your office or you know, whatever your lous of control and then expand out, which is a really good book. So,
Scott Allen :Yeah, awesome. Well, you all we need to wind down here a little bit. So how should we close out today? Sometimes I talk I asked folks what they're watching, or what what they're reading. We could talk about the best concert we've ever attended. We could discuss our favorite leadership quote, that's an option.
Dan Jenkins :No, I don't think so Scott. The best sporting event we've ever attended?
Lauren Bullock :Oh, maybe good sports stories.. Yeah, that's, oh man. No, I've I've seen like hundreds of sporting events. I was telling Scott in the pre show. I have two degrees in sports management. So technically, I'm supposed to be an athletic director by now. I have missed the mark. I have two...Can I take two is that all right. Okay, so the first one is the first so I was in politics, sports information. The people who do Sports PR they update the website. So I worked as I started as a student worker in December of 2000. And my first game was Duke versus Temple at what was then like the Wacovia Center now, I don't even like I don't even know the bank name it is now it's gone through about three or four banks. But it was you know, Jay Williams and Shane Battier a guy and it was they ended up winning a national title that years that would that was like the first sporting event that I ever worked in my what I thought was going to be this lengthy athletics career. So that was probably my most memorable. And then the second one is a really funny story about running into Deion Sanders. So I'm a Florida State grad as is Dan, we bond over Florida State and I was in the office in our office space. Our copier was in a room across the hall. So I was at my desk and I'd printed something out. So naturally, I walked to the copier, and in walking across the hall, I saw this flash of a person look good. He was dressed really sharp and I was like, I'm pretty sure that I just thought Deion Sanders. So I walked back into my office. And my boss is like, "Oh yeah, he texts me and said he's gonna be here today." And I'm like, wait. Deion Sanders is like text. Wait, whoa, let's walk all this back. And but he at the time was the PR guy for Deion Sanders when he was at Florida State. So he's like, "Well, yeah, go tell him to come come over" and I'm like, "wait, hold up. I'm like lowly graduate intern, graduate student assistant, you want me to go ask Neon Deion, prime time to come to you. Like, are you?" I don't know. So I walk through the halls and I end up finding him. He's in our, the Seminoles video area. And I walk up to him and I'm like, "Hey, Mr. Sanders, like, you know, Rob Wilson, you know, said to come get you?" "Oh, yeah, that's my boy. Wait, take this picture with me. And then we'll go over there and we'll talk to him." Totally took a picture. You know, I've got this great picture with him. We walk over there and he's like, hey, but you know, and they're like old friends. But before we walk into the office, I walk in first and I'm like, eyes like deer in headlights, eyes wide likem cheesin, and my coworkers are looking at me like why are you making That face and then behind me is Deion Sanders. And it's and they're like, "oh, like we get your face" it's like Hey Mr. Sanders, you know and and then you know everybody connected and I was just like, you know, I can retire from sports and like, you know, I was that I thought was gonna be like the epitome of my sports career. So those are probably some good memories. I probably got 100 more.
Scott Allen :That's awesome.
Lauren Bullock :Yeah.
Dan Jenkins :Yeah, so I mean, I think that my I'm gonna have to as well and we'll be sure I want to maybe 30 seconds longer but freshman year I was in the marching, marching chiefs in the big marching band Florida State University and played played sousaphone. Play the tuba, hosting Florida, hosting the University of Florida that year was just, I never I mean, I've been watching them on TV since I was you know, a tween, but to actually be there. I think we were like ranked number one and number two, we ended up playing for the national championship that year. And just the energy and the excitement and just that I mean the whole thing We want to move but I mean it was just you know Bobby Bowden, Steve Spurrier, like 83,000 fans, it just it was, it was unreal. And so like being a student and a band member, and a fan like, all that coming together
Lauren Bullock :and beating the Gators always, always a good day!
Dan Jenkins :It's never unsweet. The other would have been first time I ever went to Fenway to see a Red Sox game, not a huge Red Sox fan. I don't hate them. It's just not a big, a big fan growing up in Tampa and following the Rays and being in the same, you know, division as them. And so first time ever, I'm going with my buddy, and he grew up grew up in Boston, he'd been to 100 Red Sox games, and second third inning, Red Sox are doing all right, playing the Orioles. And, you know, it's like fifth inning, sixth inning, same pitcher is still in. I turned to my buddy and there's three of us on my bed. I'm like, I'm like, hey, and he goes, don't you say a thing? And I was like, Okay, and then I started Oh, that's right. That's right. There's that there's that historical baseball. Okay, I got this You know, a couple mornings go by finally he throws the last pitch. No hitter place goes like insane like you'd never seen. And this would have been I want to say '03 maybe and just it was a guy's first start and his name is not coming to me which is gonna bug me forever. But his first major league star guy throws a no hitter at Fenway. And my buddy's like, "Man, I've been to 100 games you come to your first game at Fenway and the guy and you get to see a no hitter!" The chances of that are like you know, whatever they are one in probably several 10s of thousands that you're going to go see a no hitter live. So yeah, that's great.
Scott Allen :So I'll go with two as well. So I was a diver growing up. Imagine a young Scott Allen, who had a little bit of a mullet drove a station wagon and spent a large portion of the day in a speedo. Not the most, and it was it was a it was a sad picture. But I saw Greg Louganis dive and so that was incredible because he was just an awesome, beautiful diver and incredible. And then my only other story is it's a baseball story as well, but it's just loving seeing my children when we go to a couple spring training games and they'll go down and Frankie Lindor or Terry Francona or Jason Kipnis when he was at the Cleveland Indians would come over and sign their baseballs or their shirts and so much fun to watch them in awe and them have the joy that they had as they meet some of these people. So that's my favorite. I just I've loved watching that. And I think I might have well maybe I don't Yeah, I have one of the sign Terry Francona is behind me right now. And that's just so much fun because they have so much passionate about it. And you too, have passionate about this topic of leadership. How about that for a transition? And Lauren, you have a hard stop and Dan, I'm sure you have a whole bunch of other things that go and lead for the rest of the day...
Dan Jenkins :off to lead Scott. I'm off to you know what I'm gonna lead, but I'm gonna lead something
Scott Allen :you know, thank you. So much the two of you for being with me. It's been a lot of fun. I appreciate it.
Lauren Bullock :Man. This was great. Thanks so much. Yes, yes! Take care be well.