Dr. Karen Giliam is Agency Chief Learning Officer & Organization Development Lead, NASA. In addition to her work at NASA, Dr. Gilliam has served as a faculty instructor, business owner, published author, and elected politician. She is also the grandmother of 12 and great grandmother of two. We explore a number of topics including self-knowledge, hope, empathy, storytelling, voice, and choice.
Quotes from This Episode
Resources Mentioned in this Episode
Other Resources Mentioned in this Episode
Quotes Referenced by Dr. Gilliam
Dr. Karen Giliam is Agency Chief Learning Officer & Organization Development Lead, NASA. In addition to her work at NASA, Dr. Gilliam has served as a faculty instructor, business owner, published author, and elected politician. She is also the grandmother of 12 and great grandmother of two. We explore a number of topics including self-knowledge, hope, empathy, storytelling, voice, and choice.
Quotes from This Episode
Resources Mentioned in this Episode
Other Resources Mentioned in this Episode
Quotes Referenced by Dr. Gilliam
Phronesis - Practical Wisdom with Scott Allen.
Scott Allen :Hello, I am Scott Allen and thanks to my daughter Kate for developing the intro to the practical wisdom for leaders Podcast, where we offer a smart, fast paced discussion and all things leadership. My guests help us explore timely topics and incorporate practical tips to help you make a difference in how you lead and live. If you haven't done so, please click subscribe so you automatically seamlessly stay in the know when we publish new episodes. Likewise, please provide me with feedback. What do you like? What do you dislike and what else would you like to know? And now today's show Okay, my guest today is Karen Gilliam Agency Chief Learning Officer and Organization Development lead at NASA and Karen and I have known each other for...gosh, Karen, it might almost be 18 years. 17 years. It's been some time at this point. And I am really excited for this conversation today. And I really, really appreciate you being here. Would you do me a favor and share with our guests a little bit about you?
Dr. Karen Gilliam :A little bit about me? Well, I am the Agency Chief Learning Officer for NASA. And in that role, I'm responsible for the development and execution of the agency's training and development strategy, along with the agency's OD, organization development capability, managing those priorities and resource distribution for allocation of specialists to meet the needs of the agency's priorities. I've been doing this work for well over 25 years. And over the course of my career, I've served in various roles from that of a adjunct faculty instructor, business owner, published author, and elected politician. On a personal note, I am a grandmother of 12 and great grandmother of two!
Scott Allen :Wow, I did not realize great grandmother, congratulations.
Dr. Karen Gilliam :Thank you.
Scott Allen :Well, and so I have been kind of on this adventure of starting this podcast. And so, you know, I've had some really, really wonderful conversations I spoke with David Rosch, who we titled that episode, I Have a Fear you know, he's he's kind of concerned that maybe some of the leader development efforts and and programming that we've put into motion isn't having the results that we would hope it would. Had a really fascinating conversation with Kathy Allen and she's looking at systems, and systems thinking - she's brilliant and nature, and she's looking to nature for clues on how we can be doing better. And Jon Wergin of course, as you know, we had this really fun conversation about deep learning. And he has a new book out. And really the focus was, he had a quote in there that it has to be with others because that's where some of the learning occurs where we can empathize with the perspectives and the lived experience of other people. And of course Ed O'Malley, we talked about adaptive leadership and adaptive challenges. And certainly, the space that we're in right now, whether that's COVID-19, or some of the events surrounding events with George Floyd and such, these are adaptive challenges that our country has to work through. And Susan Komives said something beautiful - she said our ultimate purpose as leadership educators is creating community, any place that our learners go that are we developing them to be able to create community. And so I've had these really, really fun and interesting conversations. And, you know, I really am interested in knowing what's on your mind. What are you thinking about? How are you thinking about leadership, education, leadership development? It's been a very challenging 2020 so far... What's top of mind for you?
Dr. Karen Gilliam :Well, that's a very profound question, Scott in a number of ways, and the first, some of the first thoughts that come to mind for me is one, "you can't give what you don't have." So when I think about leadership, development, the connection with others, I think about the question, "well, who were you?" you know, "who are you to deliver a particular message?" "Who are you as a leader?" And those are very important questions that if you're in a leadership role or you're aspiring to lead for a particular initiative or a cause, "what work have you done on yourself?" You know, we've all heard the sayings that, "leadership is an inside out job," that "leadership development is self development." But I can recall many years ago, early in my formal education, we read "the unexamined life is not worth living." But what occurs to me is that we haven't taught people how to examine their life, how to examine who they are, we go through exercises on identifying values, but how does that play out in your life? I know for me, one of the things that I find is critically important is that whole notion notion of voice.
Scott Allen :Hmm.
Dr. Karen Gilliam :And what are you giving your voice to? Or for? On behalf of? And what does that mean to you? And how does that further your values? How does that honor your values? So the whole question of self knowledge and self awareness, self awareness being first, the first step, because if you aren't aware of your behaviors of your thinking, I mean, how often do we even stop to think about our own thinking?
Scott Allen :The metacognition, right?
Dr. Karen Gilliam :Yes, yes, absolutely. I did a presentation about a week ago now for NASA supervisors. And the title of it was Who's In the Driver's Seat? Identifying and Reducing Unconscious Bias. And I wanted to look at unconscious bias or use that as a lens to look at teleworking and teleworkers, you know where there's a lot of conversation going on in all organizations about how to come back, who's coming back? What are the work schedules going to look like now? And as a supervisor, I have to manage all of that. A lot of our decisions, well most of our decisions, are made from that logical critical thinking mind, the conscious mind. But how much of what's going on in the unconscious mind is influencing those decisions is influencing how we jump to conclusions, how we make assumptions, and there's a quote that I found. It's a pretty, it's a deeply reflective statement that's made by a cardiologist and she says, "Develop a capacity to shine a light on yourself. The more we observe ourselves, the more we are aware of how the lens we see through affects our behavior toward other people."
Scott Allen :Hmm? And my conversation with Jon Wergin, Karen. You know, it aligns beautifully with what you just said that probably the most powerful learning moments occur when we are with others. And we have an opportunity to work to better understand their lived experiences, but then also explore some of those assumptions and those perceptions that we might bring into the conversation that may cloud our ability to do so. Does that make sense?
Dr. Karen Gilliam :Absolutely makes sense. And unless we pause, and assess, we're totally unaware of how much influence that plays into the decisions we make the actions that we take. They're automatic, and as with anything, when we don't have all the information, we fill in the blanks.
Scott Allen :Oh, yeah.
Dr. Karen Gilliam :And we don't question that. The accuracy of what we're filling in
Scott Allen :Yeah, or other or other entities fill in the blanks for us, right? And so this notion of empathy and empathy, specifically now, in our current context, would you talk a little bit about that?
Dr. Karen Gilliam :Well, Scott, I'm going to go back to the individual. That is where I'm really focused on right now. And when you say the word empathy, the immediate next word, or words, that come into mind, for me is self compassion. And how compassionate are we with ourselves? What are we doing with the emotions that we feel? I was in a conversation with someone earlier this week, and she shared a book with me which I'm eager to read that's entitled, The Unopened Gift. And it's all about emotions. Because emotions are information.
Scott Allen :Yes.
Dr. Karen Gilliam :And when We're in the midst of all the change that we're experiencing in our world, the highs and the lows. I'll tell you as a NASA employee, I felt such tremendous pride at the successful launch of Crew Dragon.
Scott Allen :Yes
Dr. Karen Gilliam :It was amazing. I was sitting on the edge of my seat, both on Wednesday and Saturday, by the way. And I'm just so proud of being a part of an organization that provides that behind the scenes support for these amazing, amazing astronauts who do the work that they do. At the same time. I'm on this emotional journey as the rest of us are with COVID-19. And all that it implies, and how it has impacted our lives. Then to add complexity to that picture, we have the senseless killing of an unarmed man and as a black woman, wife, mother, grandmother, great grandmother, cousin, I have a relentless worry that when, in particular my male relatives, leave home as to whether they'll be able to return unharmed. So these are all of the emotions that I'm dealing with, and all of the emotions that many others are dealing with. And if you're in a leadership role, what are you doing? What are you thinking? How are you responding? How are you showing compassion for yourself, as well as for others?
Scott Allen :Well and are you modeling that reflective space that you mentioned that you are in that that space that...I don't know that any one person if we go back to Ron Heifetz, his work at Harvard, this is an adaptive challenge and no one person has the answer, but we we can identify some questions and run some experiments and and see if it moves the needle. But, certainly a piece of all of that is the reflection and the trying to make sense of what's swirling around us. And to your point, there's so much swirling around us. And to your point also, some some incredible highs, the the launch was wonderful. I mean, how awesome was that? And then, of course, that's juxtiposed with the horrible events of the last week, week and a half, two weeks and events that had preceded that for years and years. So as leadership educators, I agree, I think we have to do that work ourselves. We have to stay in that continual (because it's not just a you know, one time thing), it's a continual way of being that we are reflecting and we are paying attention to our own emotions, thinking about our thinking and, I think it was (Bernard) Bass said, you know "is your own shop in order" so to speak. But I had a great conversation with Susan Murphy about leadership development across the lifespan and then Ron Riggio, and he was really he was he was saying that he thinks that followers and researching and studying followers - why do followers follow tyrannical individuals? What can we do to better build the capacity of followers? To as Ira Chaleff would say, "stand up for, and to our leaders." And so you stand up for them if they're on the right track, and if our leaders are not on the right track, how do we build capacity in followers to stand up to, those leaders? So as an educator, how do you think about that? How do you think about the role of followers, and our need to it can't just be all focused on leader development How do we build the capacity of others? And that something I don't have an answer to, I'm just I, and I know I'm springing that on you. Because that too, it's an adaptive challenge. But, how would you think about that question?
Dr. Karen Gilliam :You know, when immediately comes to mind, for me is a lot of the work that Brene Brown does. Now, I had the pleasure of actually being at Johnson Space Center, when Brene Brown came to visit NASA and gave a brief talk, very impactful, to not only those that were physically there in that auditorium, but it was broadcast wide throughout all of NASA. One of the things that she talks about is courageous leadership, and, and I quote her in saying, "you can have comfort, or you can be courageous. You can't have both." And so it really means that you're stepping out of a comfort zone...
Scott Allen :Which is scary for a lot of people...it is
Dr. Karen Gilliam :Which is so scary. And I'm thinking about, you know, life as we're experiencing it today. And truly, we are all out of our comfort zone.
Scott Allen :Hmm.
Dr. Karen Gilliam :We're in the midst of a storm. And the question is, how will we come out of the storm? We won't be the same person, when we entered the storm, we will be very different on the other side. And will that difference look like?
Scott Allen :Hmm.
Dr. Karen Gilliam :I mean, we can look at that in a very simplistic way when we talk about what has become so important, so meaningful that you're missing in your life right now? I'm a hugger. And I have to tell you, I miss being able to greet people and just wrap my arms around them. I miss hugging my grandchildren, and I'm thinking, when will that come back? When will that return?
Scott Allen :Yeah, I watched my children, often right now, feeling sad that they can't hug their grandparents. It's terrible. And there's also learning in some of that, you know, I think it's challenged my wife and I, I want to do a podcast Karen on on leading families, because you, you are our we are all leading in our own families. And so it's this interesting juxtaposition. How do we honor how that our children are feeling, and acknowledging some of the struggles, whether it's they can't be with their friends, or whether it's some of what we've given up, and had to do to stay safe? How do we, and how do we frame this experience, so that there's learning? So that there's reflection? And, how do we develop their mindset to approach this with, there's loss, but now and this is something that we've started saying to our kids quite a bit - "You're going to create your day. Uou are going to create your day. And we'll help bye What do you want this day to be?" And that's kind of a mindset. It really is. But it's a very challenging time to continue to influence our children to, to frame this experience in that way. And so it's very much been a leadership opportunity for my wife and I to influence them to on one hand, not stuff away or not acknowledge some of what they're experiencing, but then take that and move forward. And I'm sure you're seeing the same thing in your family.
Dr. Karen Gilliam :Absolutely. Absolutely. And as you were talking, it reminded me of choice.
Scott Allen :Hmm.
Dr. Karen Gilliam :And earlier, when I spoke about Brene Brown, I misquoted her, I left out an important word in that quote, and it it ties into what we're talking about right now. Because what she said is, "you can choose courage, or you can choose comfort, but you cannot have both."
Scott Allen :Hmm.
Dr. Karen Gilliam :"You can choose courage or you can choose comfort, but you cannot have both." And that's where we are that that is the cross road. What do you choose to do? What do you choose to do with the emotions that you're feeling? What do you choose to do to honor your values? What do you choose to do to be that voice on behalf of connecting others on leading in a way that honors your values?
Scott Allen :Well, and this is one of those times where being incredibly clear on our values of what is right what is wrong, what, what for us, we hold true, and then acting on those, but I love that quote, it's beautiful quote. What else is on your mind right now? What else are you thinking about? Or what else are you reflecting on Karen?
Dr. Karen Gilliam :Well, the other thought that I've really been just reflecting on has to do with hope. And I'm reminded of my doctoral journey and how it all began for me. There's a woman, a wonderful woman Her name is Joan Southgate, and Joan Southgate was over 70 years old when she decided to walk the 519 miles of the Underground Railroad. And she served as a story. She's hurt her story served as a catalyst for me yearning to understand what is the linkage between storytelling and leadership because so many people heard her story along the way, and decided that they wanted to help her, whether that is walking along with her on some leg of the journey, supporting her financially. In one example, which really struck me, a group of travelers, they traveled together in their recreational vehicles, they heard her story and decided to be her modern day safe houses as she walked the last miles of her journey. And I wondered what was it is it the storyteller? Is it the storytelling experience? Was it the story itself? What caused people to move to action? And my findings suggest that as long as the story holds one of the four universal dimensions of life - living, loving learning, or leaving a legacy that provides the connective glue, and you know, how often have we all heard the same story? And we've walked away with very different meanings? That's because we're only taking from the story what we need. That's what we connect with. So the question, the question that comes to mind for me as a leader, what is your story, and who are you to tell the story, and why should we care?
Scott Allen :Hmm, say more about that?
Dr. Karen Gilliam :When I think about, and I'll use john Southgate because she's just my exemplar for this, when I look at Joan and describe her and align that with storytelling and her leadership, first of all, and we all heard this saying "people don't care how much you know until they know that you care." We know that that is absolutely true for Joan. She she is very authentic, honest, genuine about her mission and her calling that she's responding to. She has the knowledge in terms of serious focused study around the Underground Railroad, but she also has self knowledge. She knows who she is, the beauty of who she is, the blemishes that she also embraces, so we get a very holistic picture of her. When she tells her story, she risks her own vulnerability, so she's believable. So there's so much about her that really speaks to the Individual. I can see through her and experience through her how much she cares.
Scott Allen :Hmm.
Dr. Karen Gilliam :And that makes me want to know more about her story. And for so many people, that became her followers, they wanted to do more, they wanted to do something, if the only thing I could do is to share her story and spread her message, that's an action that I choose to take.
Scott Allen :Yes.
Dr. Karen Gilliam :If I have the financial means in order to support her journey, I can choose to provide that support. If I own an RV, and I can afford, I have the time, I have the finances, I can go with her on the last leg of her journey and support her in that way. So we can choose and it doesn't matter what your contribution may be. No one should ever think that it's too little because it could be enormously supportive to the receiver.
Scott Allen :Well, and you had mentioned Hope you had mentioned hope. And that story is a beautiful example of just even her action. I think it also provides people with hope. And as as educators, I think part of our role, is to at least help people explore the notion of hope for themselves. And I think part of the challenge that we're experiencing now you have 39 million people out of work. We have some of the horrible injustices that are occurring in the system. We have biological challenges. We have digital challenges and a digital tsunami moving towards us with disruptive technologies. Economic disruption. And my sense, is that whether they know it or not, there's large factions of people right now, who don't feel like there's hope they don't see a path forward. I think that some of the work. How do we restore that sense of hope or that sense of possibilities? Whether I'm in in Lordstown, Ohio, or Detroit, Michigan? How do we restore that sense of hope and facilitate that for not only individuals but also for communities?
Dr. Karen Gilliam :My thoughts on that Scott is it goes to my faith which is foundational to who I am. There are so many questions of life for which I don't have the answers. You don't have the answers. And we turn, I turn to a higher power to help guide me through these times. And I believe that this is where our religious community, our faith community, you know, wherever you are, in terms of a belief of something greater than yourself, a greater power, that this is certainly a time for us to turn to that and to have the conversations that are uncomfortable. But their conversations that matter. You know, the Joan Southgate story talks about a time in our history where the freedom seekers held on to hope. And that hope was felt by a diverse community, the freedom seekers, the railroad conductors, you know, we we crossed race, we crossed social status, economic status, and people were coming together, coming together because they knew and they had hope for a better life. As the living dimension there was learning, even even something as and I'm, I'm simply saying it, but it's so important, but the learning from one another...We certainly You know the saying, "walk in someone else's shoes." We can't necessarily walk their shoes. But this goes back to earlier you mentioned empathy. Where is that empathy? Where does it reside with in us to have for others? And loving, the beloved community. And as far as leaving a legacy...this is a nice way to kind of round off this conversation. What do you want to leave this earth knowing that you contributed? What do you want to what do you want to know with without any doubt where you've made positive contributions? And if it's for a single person, that's huge, if it's for a group in a community, wow.
Scott Allen :And I think I think we as educators have an opportunity, beautiful opportunity to reflect on those words and help chart a path for ourselves which in turn creates opportunities for others. And that mindset expands that mindset of hope, that mindset of, of even the singular goal of having an objective of making a difference whether that's for an individual, or whether that's for a community. And I think you're right. I think that's a wonderful place for us to kind of land the plane for today.
Dr. Karen Gilliam :So, I would like to offer, I would like to offer a couple of questions here to, to end our conversation today, Scott, please. And it starts with, "what can I do, continue to do, or start doing that keeps me on that inward journey of being all that I can be? Doing all that I was meant to do? And then, "how can I apply that learning in my work?"
Scott Allen :Two beautiful questions. You know, oftentimes I'll end this podcast by asking individuals what they're reading what they're watching what they're listening to. And you've mentioned a couple, a couple pieces throughout our conversation today. What would you suggest...the two questions you just gave us were beautiful and and i think that's that's our, our work, so to speak...is there anything that you would also suggest that we read, or we watch, or we listened to, that's resonated for you as we continue to reflect?
Dr. Karen Gilliam :So the first name that I'll mention is anything written by Brene Brown.
Scott Allen :Hmm
Dr. Karen Gilliam :I absolutely love her work. And the next author I will mention, and oh my goodness, as I'm saying, author (Daniel) Kimble, I believe it's the last name, but his book I just got a copy of it "Unshakable Influence: Mastering the Inner Game of Leadership." I've read through some of it and I think it's a worthwhile read.
Scott Allen :Great. Anything else come to mind? And you know for me, Karen, your book, your book comes to mind!
Dr. Karen Gilliam :Yes, Scott. Thank you! You know, I will tell you that recently, a friend of mine posted on Facebook, a response to the recent traged. The very first couple of sentences in the posting said, I would like to thank my dear friend, Dr. Karen Gilliam for her book, "Finding Your Voice in a World that Needs It." And I thought, boy, what a reminder to me that I need to walk my own talk.
Scott Allen :Mmmm.
Dr. Karen Gilliam :And yes, you know, finding your voice is a lifelong journey. You know, you don't wake up one morning and say, "Oh, I found my voice! I have arrived!" Yeah, we will continually run into those definable moments where we have an opportunity to choose. So finding your voice is a journey that we all take in realizing the importance of being who you are. Because that is, that is, the one and only gift that you have to offer to the world.
Scott Allen :And I think that's a wonderful place for us to close out for today. Karen, as always, just a wonderful experience, and an opportunity to reflect with you to hear where your head is, what you're thinking about, and I can't thank you enough for taking the time to be with us today. I imagine you have 1000 things on your to do list. And for you to give your time like this and share your thoughts and wisdom with our listeners, I just, I say thank you.
Dr. Karen Gilliam :Well, thank you, Scott. I certainly appreciate the invitation and always enjoy to have a conversation, a conversation that matters.
Scott Allen :As always, I really enjoyed my time with Dr. Gilliam and we had some interesting conversations she said that you know what? "Leadership development is about shining a light on yourself." So she also noticed that leadership development is an "inside out job," and she said that leadership development is all about self development. And we discussed this notion of reflection as a way of being. Are we continuously in a reflective state and examining self as we work to develop and grow. She also mentioned a quote by Brene Brown, which actually was the impetus for this episode's title, "we can choose courage, or we can choose comfort, but we can have both, not at the same time." Dr. Gilliam and I spoke about some of the challenges that we as a country face and I think for each one of us a reflection on the question of are we going to choose courage or comfort is an important one, it's a critical one. I often begin my podcasts by telling the guests my three words for them. And I didn't do that this time, I wanted to see what really emerged from our conversation. And when I think of Dr. Gilliam three words that come to mind for me, our storytelling and I know our listeners, really, that shined through in everything that she spoke about, and her story of Joan Southgate. It's incredibly powerful, and I would really encourage you to look at the show notes and click on some of those resources. And Dr. Gilliam's book, I also chose the word empathy. I think our world needs more empathizing, we may not understand others, but can we work to understand others? And then I think a core activity for each one of us is to think about how we can provide others with hope, purpose, because I think that as Dr. Gilliam said, is the conversation that matters. As always thanks for listening in and be well. You have been listening to The practical wisdom for leaders podcast. If you liked what you heard, please share it with others and let them know what we're up to. And one last quick reminder to click Subscribe so you know when we publish new episodes, and of course, we'd love to hear your feedback. You can stay in touch with me by visiting www.scottjallen.net or any number of social media platforms. Be well be safe and make a difference wherever you are on this beautiful planet. And now, here's Kate's twin sister Emily, with the outro.
Emily Allen :You've been listening to Phronesis: Practical Wisdom with Scott Allen.