Julie Owen, Ph.D., is an Associate Professor of Leadership Studies at the School of Integrative Studies, George Mason University, where she coordinates the leadership studies major and minor and is affiliate faculty with the Higher Education Program and Women and Gender Studies. Owen authored more than 30 publications, including serving as co-editor of the Handbook for Student Leadership Development, and editor of Innovative Learning for Leadership Development (New Directions for Student Leadership Series No.1).
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Julie Owen, Ph.D., is an Associate Professor of Leadership Studies at the School of Integrative Studies, George Mason University, where she coordinates the leadership studies major and minor and is affiliate faculty with the Higher Education Program and Women and Gender Studies. Owen authored more than 30 publications, including serving as co-editor of the Handbook for Student Leadership Development, and editor of Innovative Learning for Leadership Development (New Directions for Student Leadership Series No.1).
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Owen Related Resources Mentioned in this Episode
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Phronesis: Practical wisdom with Scott Allen.
Scott Allen :Hello, I am Scott Allen and thanks to my daughter Kate for developing the intro to the practical wisdom for leaders Podcast, where we offer a smart, fast paced discussion and all things leadership. My guests help us explore timely topics and incorporate practical tips to help you make a difference in how you lead and live. If you haven't done so, please click subscribe so you automatically seamlessly stay in the know when we publish new episodes. Likewise, please provide me with feedback. What do you like? What do you dislike and what else would you like to know? And now, today's show. My guest today is Julie Owen. Dr. Julie Owen, she is an associate professor of Leadership Studies. She's at the School of Integrative Studies at George Mason University. So welcome, Julie, thank you for being with us.
Julie Owen :Thank you for having me. How exciting?
Scott Allen :Yes, yes. You know, when I start these podcasts, I always, at least for the guests that I know and so far I've known everybody, I, I come up with three words that I think of, when I think of that individual. And I was thinking about your three words, but then I decided, you know what? It's eight words, because you have you have the coolest title of any book that, I swear this is the coolest title of any book I have come across. in a long time, maybe since Marshall Goldsmith's, What Got You Here Won't Get You There. And I think that might be 2015 or something like that. Right? So Julie's new book is titled, We Are the Leaders We've Been Waiting For. I cannot wait to jump in and learn from you in our time together today. So before we do that, though, tell us a little bit about you and how you've gotten into this space of leadership education.
Unknown Speaker :Fantastic. Well, as you mentioned, I'm a faculty member at George Mason University in Virginia, where I coordinate our leadership minor and concentration or major. I've been in the field for a long time, Scott, like, I don't want to put ages on you and I, but it feeling like, one way to get wisdom is you stick around for a long time and talk to a lot of smart people, right? So I teach courses on leadership and social justice. And I teach a cool class called Research is Resistance about how we teach people do research for social change, and kind of interrogate the whole publication enterprise. Yeah, so that's what I've been doing these days, and sometimes I do some consulting and in my free time, I like to read and travel. I'm supposed to be in Corfu. Today, I supposed to be in Greece and Croatia these weeks.
Scott Allen :Oh, wow.
Julie Owen :Not that you're not better than Corfu, but I wish I was there!
Scott Allen :That's too bad. I'm sorry to hear that well, and I also, so when I think of you we were going to see Edie Brickell potentially in San Diego a few years ago. And you know what she she posted on Instagram. I don't know if you saw this, but she posted on Instagram that you could write her, and for our listeners, this is a musician Edie Brickell & The New Bohemians was the band probably back in the 90s is late 80s, early 90s is when they hit and they but they just had a new album come out in the last year or so. And it was awesome. So check it out. But she I think, for about a year and a half, she would write a song a day. And then when everyone went into shelter in place, she posted on Instagram, she said, write me a topic and we'll write a song for you. So she actually wrote a song for our family, which was so cool.
Julie Owen :I kind of want to ask you to sing it, Scott.
Scott Allen :It's really, really cool. And so go on her Instagram page and tell her you want a song and she'll write you a song. It's really great. Cool. It's really
Julie Owen :honestly, when you sent me that link and you said, Edie, I did not put together it was Edie Brickell. So I thought you're talking about some random. Amazing, but I was like, Oh my god, I'm so much more motivated right now. I'm such a fan of hers and she's collaborates with my favorite person Steve Martin on musical theater and some other things. So I'm just a fan of her work
Scott Allen :Anyway. Yes, yes, yes. Well, let's jump into the to the topic of the day. So We Are The Leaders We've Been Waiting For. And again, like I said, I love the title. So, tell tell us about, tell us about the book. Tell us about the origins of it and and what you're trying to achieve with the book. And then let's maybe jump into a couple couple chapters.
Unknown Speaker :Sure. Well, I want to be clear, I didn't make up those powerful words, right? Those are great words "we are leaders we're waiting for." What's really interesting, is it took me a long time and a lot of sleuthing to track down actually the source of that quote. So, you probably remember Obama used some version of that in his campaign, people credited to Grace Lee Boggs. But I think the actual nexus of the phrase "we are leaders been waiting for" is June Jordan, who's an African American poet. In the 60s, she wrote this beautiful poem called almost like a call to arms and that phrases in there, so I co opted that and actually have fascinating conversations with people about whether it was okay for this white lady to use that phrase, or whether, was that, but every time I talked to people, they had a similar reaction to use her work, and the students were like, "no, this is no one's gonna buy a book called women's leadership development. We want something catchier" and they all, the students were what spoke, and the students said it has to be called this so I, give them credit for that title. I do think it, so I just finished teaching my last women in leadership class this week, and, it was so nice to go to repeat the book mantra back to them, my closing words to them where "you are the women, we've been with for." And so I love that it caused people to see themselves in leadership. So I find it powerful. I'm glad you do too.
Scott Allen :But that is wonderful. So talk about the origin of the book. What? Tell us that story a little bit?
Julie Owen :Absolutely. So I've been teaching classes on gender and leadership for 10-15 years. And I was using Eagly and Carli's, Through the Labyrinth. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that book from 2007. And Kellerman and Rhode's, Women & Leadership, both excellent, like empirically grounded books. But first of all, they they don't have new editions, so it's starting to be around 15 years, right and started to give you a long time ago, and then also those books focused primarily on women's achievement in corporate America. And my students were not down with that, I had a few, maybe one or two students who want to aspire to C-Suite positions and be CEO, CFO, but most of them are more interested in, you know, being their own social innovator, entrepreneur or getting into policy and politics, social activism, and so this narrow definition of what constitutes women's success was not working for them. Also those books weren't intersectional at all, right? Which is written before intersectionality became sort of a really important thing. But the fact that identities were missing from all the stories they were telling, when the students I teach are completely from all over the world and have a very diverse kinds of experience. So to teach leadership, especially around gender and leadership without taking race and religion, other kinds of things into account seemed narrow. Then none of them were developmental, they were sort of like, here are all the structural problems, "good luck, everybody." You know, where I really felt like we need to, you and I know, as people who work with college age populations is that we need to sort of bring them along with us. So what could students actually do to enhance their leadership? So that's sort of my nexus. Yeah,
Scott Allen :I love it. I love it. And I'm excited to get to that to that conversation about what we can do as leadership educators. So this first chapter, "A Critical Moment for Women in Leadership." So tell me about that a little, I will love to learn a little bit more.
Julie Owen :Well, first of all, this is almost impossible to write. Right? So I wanted to write everything about the history of feminism, and Gender Studies, and everything about all of leadership theory and combine it all into one powerful...So, it definitely felt sometimes that it was a inch deep, and a mile wide. But I was trying to weave in all these things. You had to start with today, right with Me Too all the things sort of happening, especially for women on campus who experienced multiple kinds of oppressions. And so I didn't want to sort of brush over that. But I also don't want to assume people identified as feminists at all, or even had a positive reaction to that term. So really found myself looking at social and historical context for women, and then also, guess what? Leadership is also socially constructed. So how do we also have to look at the social historical context for Leadership Studies and sort of look at how those things intersect? I do think we're at a critical moment.
Scott Allen :Tell me a story that would encapsulate maybe chapter one.
Julie Owen :Well of you're okay. I want to read you a couple This scenario is I opened the book with.
Scott Allen :Please
Julie Owen :These might give you a sense of what I'm talking about. So here's just a couple to bring people into this narrative. I'm going to see if you see yourself in these, or students you work with, or even your your kids, or family members. "You're the only woman on a team working on a group project and class teacher suggests someone in your group take notes, everybody turns to you and hands you the pen." The number of times I've put in the secretary role. Now I choose to refrain that because I think there's power in holding the pen. So, but the number of times people face that, "you make you make a worthwhile comment in a group meeting and everyone ignores your contribution. Five minutes later, a man makes a similar comment, and everybody remarks on how clever and fantastic his idea is." So women are silence especially young women in leadership roles are silenced all the time for just kind of how they show up. This also can be internal stuff, Scott so like, "your friends encourage you to run for an office, position opposite position student government, but you declined because you don't want people to think you're bossy."
Scott Allen :Wow.
Julie Owen :Right? So you're you are bitchy. And some people conflate that a lot of times. So students do that. And then all these come from students. This one next one, I hope I can say this on your podcast.
Scott Allen :Sure.
Julie Owen :"You disagree with a colleague at work? And after you voiced your objection, someone says, 'Are you having your period?''
Scott Allen :Wow.
Julie Owen :I know which I, yeah, apparently this happens a lot. People have been sort of using both biological sex and you know, biological functions to sort of denigrate them. So I kept hearing this from students. This next one, students have told me all the time that they were pulled aside by teachers and say, "your outfit distracts the boys in the class," even if they're within completely within the dress code. So like, what kind of shaming does that do to someone? or what does that messages that are inherent in that sort of story? So, and then, you know, because so many folks these days are gender fluid or non binary "You go to use the bathroom and someone questions your right to be there."
Scott Allen :Wow.
Julie Owen :So these are just kind of narratives. So to me, these I think answer your question about how, what is the critical moment for women in leadership? Actually, I would like to say people in leadership.
Scott Allen :Yeah.
Julie Owen :And so are we going to continue to have this nonsense like instead of sort of, some of those are overtly sexist acts, but we also have things called benevolent sexism where people think they're being helpful, but they're maybe putting you in your place a little bit so
Scott Allen :Hmm. Well, as a white male, it's a it's a reality that I am blind to a lot of other lived realities. I know that much. There's a lot of lived realities and experiences that I just I, I haven't had. And, it's interesting when my wife and I will have conversations because she will be out there in the community and certain things will happen, and it always amazes me, I'm kind of floored at some of what she experiences. And it makes me think of my daughters who are 10. And, how do we raise it...It was beautiful. I said this on another podcast recently, Julie, but it was, it was when I was talking with Susan Murphy and we were talking about leadership development across the lifespan. So we were literally talking, you know, from 2,3,4 years old to retirement and older. We were having a conversation about, even in grade school, how people begin to construct the notion of what leadership is, and what are the possibilities. And so I was saying the other day, my daughter had done an end of the year project, it was a diorama of her as the president of United States with her three issues that she was going to promote. And, and I just had a I had an insight that, I don't know when I was growing up in the 70s, if that would have been the place that a young woman or even a parent would have gone, and so we're very much trying to raise our children, whether it's our son or our daughters that they can live into whoever and whatever they want to be, and they can rise to whatever ranks they want to rise and...but it's a fascinating conversation, because how often are those two young women, my daughters, and all young women, for that matter...barraged and hit with reminders, or they're hit with norms, or they're hit with sometimes subconsciously...I can't even think of the word I'm looking for Julie. There's they're living in a reality that reminds them that they are not the stereotypical archetype. Does hat makes sense?
Julie Owen :Yeah, I would even just use the word patriarchy. I mean, I we're living in a you know where the dominant norm is still genderized toward males...I don't want to like ah...
Scott Allen :No! you made me struggle for that. I just was a case in point for my original statement a little bit ago!
Julie Owen :Well, you're absolutely right. So I one of the chapters for me that I actually didn't have a lot of knowledge about, I should have probably talked to Susan Murphy, but, what was the "how did we get here?" Right? Like how does gender socialization shaped women's leadership? And oh my gosh, the research on girls is so fascinating there is. First of all, there's not a lot out there. And there's a very big scale study that I could find was from the Girl Scouts of America. And they're exploring young women, young girls and boys about their aspirations for leadership and definitely found that it was sort of equal, or women saw themselves or girl saw themselves as aspiring to leadership until puberty. And then this thing called the Ophelia Complex, I don't know if you've heard of this
Scott Allen :I haven't
Julie Owen :Named after Ophelia. It's this idea that women start to face almost like a chilly climate and they keep calling women girls, these are adolescent girls, but where they used to be sort of rewarded or feel confident about expressing themselves all of a sudden, they start to pull back they start to censor what they your aspirations even, so I love that your daughter made that diorama. Would she make it three years from now? That's the, that's that you're heading into the scary waters, where how you support her and how she deals with the societal pressures around her becomes so so important because it's when women start to opt out from leadership. And then there's also things that reinforce that like chilly classroom environments where teachers call and boys, and a whole bunch of stuff like that. And if you haven't read Rosalind Wiseman has written it. She wrote books that were adapted by Tina Fey into being the movie Mean Girls
Scott Allen :Okay.
Julie Owen :So it's her book is called Gueen Bees and Wannabes. She describes the treacherous waters for adolescent girls. So if you've seen anybody seen Mean Girls and the listeners who see me girls, they get the idea right that girl cliques can be so powerful And harmful, and what Wiseman's research actually found, is that the more vulnerable a girl is to that pressure to peer pressure, the more likely they are, the more they like conform or seek to belong to those kinds of groups. They're more vulnerable later in life to sexual violence, there's all these negative outcomes that you actually can see in adolescence about if your child starts to give away parts of themselves to be in the cool club. What that means about obedience later on, and their vulnerability, to all kinds of negative harmful things in the world. So, it's so it's just I want to like reframe all our programs that go earlier into the schools, right? We need to be working in these elementary, middle schools about teaching leadership..it can be for anyone.
Scott Allen :Yes. I mean, that was one of the main takeaways I had with my conversation with Susan is that...because I've always at least I've had this, it was it was unconscious, I wasn't aware of it, kind of a block, that it (leadership education) occurs, when people can start to get it or understand it or understand a problem solving model and then implement it? Well, there's a lot of work before that about just how even people are framing the concept. What is their mindset towards the topic? Based on what you've studied? How do I help my girls, how to my wife and I help our girls navigate those treacherous waters that they're about to enter? How do you think about that topic? What are some, some things that come to mind for you?
Julie Owen :Well, one of the things that was so careful in the book is to not raise questions without strategies, right? So again, I wanted this to be really applicable. There are people who've written really powerful ideas. What is it like surround them with powerful women's powerful girls stories?
Scott Allen :Nice.
Julie Owen :So we look at I read a little bit about Disney and all the Disney messages about gender and leadership, right? So are you Ariel, and you like, give up your legs for the ? Yman of your dreamses? Or like give up your whole, your whole community I guess she takes on the leg. But so there's a lot of negative messages on some of those movies and Disney is starting to become. Finally they're hiring more women and now you're seeing more feminist messages in things like Frozen, you know where the true love is their sisters or so I think it's been fun to sort of see that we surround themselves and then there's been a movement called BanBossy, #banbossy
Scott Allen :Okay
Julie Owen :And instead of telling girls, they're being bossy, what if we reframe that as the nexus of leadership, right? And sort of honoring that. In order to promote girls not to each other. There are some social media movements where you uplift peers. So like, say three great, great things about what happened to your friend.
Scott Allen :Yep.
Julie Owen :Versus all of the negative, "this person to do that"...some of it is like students are actually reaching for something to talk about. So if you can teach them how to talk about positive things as much as it is fun to be dishy and talk about gossip You can actually reinforce positive things. So here's like there's a couple of lists use social media for good. Okay? Um, yes share, #share222, to to encourage girls to share out another's achievements, at least two social media outlets with the goal of replacing you know, selfies and sexualized content with positive affirmations of friendship and support. Teaching them about using your body language and not to shrink themselves in the face of manspreading. Teaching them it's okay to take up space and to own their space, which should not normalize giving and seeking help, how do they identify sources of support? Again, girls who fear reaching out are less likely to get the resources they need when facing crises or challenges. So just, I'm sure you have such an open, warm, loving relationship with your children and so you can't underestimate the value of just being there for them. Emphasizing mastery instead of performance, like you learned a lot, you didn't win. But boy, your soccer playing is so much better. Right?
Scott Allen :Sure.
Julie Owen :So not tying success into sort of results. Do you find that with your girls?
Scott Allen :Yeah, yeah. So the work of Carol Dweck had a large impact, at least on how we're framing parenting. And so I actually try and with them, I just had an article published in the Journal of Management education. So I was very excited about this, I had been rejected by the journal in the past, and an article totally died. When I first put this in, it was rejected. And it was about a two year process, right? And so, for instance, kind of reframing failure for them and modeling that, "Hey, Dad even fails, but I'm shooting big and I'm trying and you know, what, that's a part of growing and that's a part of, of kind of knowing that you're out there and you're trying things" and so, but the growth mindset, kind of are you in the game and are you giving it your best, that's what we're asking for. And so. it's it's really Really interesting, though, because I think you're exactly right. We're at this, we're at this point where YouTube videos and all these other things are starting to kind of take over and their own impressions of what is cool, admirable, is being shaped and kind of being released from some of our control. And so how do we, you know, set up environments where, whether it's what they're reading or what they're experiencing...so for instance, my wife, this was a brilliant idea...she and about six other mothers...this is probably two years ago, started a book club. And the goal is that this book club stays intact through high school. So these are all young girls they started at eight years old, and they read a book, and then they get together monthly, and they talk about the book and so that's another outlet where...some of the books that are being chosen are representative of strong young women or, or stories that have great meaning. And because each child picks a book that has meaning for them, and that's what everyone else reads. But it really is an interesting, very relevant for me at this moment, topic just because I want to be supportive, I want to be helpful and raising confident, strong, young women who believe in themselves and believe that they can in their heart, rise to whatever levels they want to rise to. It's a fascinating topic. It just is.
Julie Owen :I love that and what a great example. And kudos to you and your partner for doing that I just to think about having them be actually in community with other girls around something positive, as you said, where the focus isn't necessarily a screen or "who did what to whom," so I can see all the ways that would get work to like create a shared sense of community. and to build trust, and learn how to communicate even about hard things. Whole bunch of positive outcomes out of that. So kudos, s great
Scott Allen :Well, and another thing that and this is Jessica, my wife, this isn't me, but she's brilliant when it comes to some of these, but the girls also have developed a wonderful literacy around emotions, so they can pretty readily name how they're feeling. And my wife is again, brilliant at helping them understand what they're experiencing, why they're feeling the way they're feeling....obviously, the last couple months have been a shift. And so it's, it's amazing. It really is.
Julie Owen :Well, we haven't talked about what girls go to college, but I didn't know and I don't know why I was limited this data, but women suffer from anxiety disorders in college almost twice as much as men.
Scott Allen :Really?
Julie Owen :So I just thought, yes, I have no idea because that has not been my experience, but who I've seen suffering from different kind of mood disorders, but it's maybe like it's between a third and a half, but it's there. There are our men with It's pretty amazing how many women are suffering from those kinds of things. And I think what you're giving them that defense to be able to articulate name their moods, not be of shame in their emotions to be able to work that out how powerful
Scott Allen :trying and again, I have a wonderful leader. I am. I'm just the first follower trying to be supportive. So with the time we have left, Julie, what I would love to do is explore two specific conversations. If I'm a young woman, and I want to develop my leadership skills, what are some things I should focus on? And, if I'm a leadership educator, what should I be focused on when it comes to this topic, women in leadership? Again, I'm a I'm a white male leadership educator, oftentimes, and this happened to me last fall. It was amazing. Julie, it was beautiful. A young woman walked up to me after class had had a panel discussion. There were four white men in the panel. I didn't Realize that I had just put something into motion where they were just for white men from an accounting firm on the panel. And she looked at me and I'm thankful that she, that she took the initiative to say this, but she said, "you know, moving forward, if we could have some representation of women, I would love it. Because this felt like another event where we just prop up people that don't look like me." And how beautiful because I was completely blind to the fact that that's what had been done.
Julie Owen :I applaud you for creating an environment of trust where someone felt like they could say that to you, because we're often, if someone is really depending on the community, thecreating the climate they're creating, they just walked away, and they started discounting their whole course, or they discount the messages they're getting because you weren't taking their identities into account, but the fact that she felt comfortable kind of telling you that speaks to the climate of the classroom and who you are as a person and your learning centeredness. So, best days are when students give you critical feedback. Even though you want to run away just to sort of lean into it, Brene Brown I'm sure you've read Brene Brown. She writes a lot about like, "What am I supposed to be learning here?" So when you have the fight or flight about feedback to like, sort of stay in it and say, "Okay, what messages can I receive from this?" so fantastic, what a great story.
Scott Allen :But it's symbolic of what do leadership educators need to be aware of? And as they're designing or as they're serving as architects of programming? What do they need to have on their radar? And so let's start with let's start with "I'm an individual, I want to develop my leadership" and let's focus on on young women or women in this in this conversation. What do they need to focus on based on your expertise and wisdom? What are a couple suggestions you have?
Julie Owen :Well, one is and this actually comes from the multi institutional study of leadership, the MSL scholarship, which is a empirical research study of college students, by John Dugan, and many other collaborators, but anaway is that we keep finding that women are scoring higher on capacity for socially responsible leadership, which in some ways in itself is gender, right? If you're looking at social change model, collaboration, common purpose, we might think of those as stereotypically feminine sort of traits. So it's not surprising, at least it was it wasn't to me, that women were scoring higher on their capacity for socially responsible leadership. The kicker was, we came to look at their efficacy, their belief that they were capable of leadership, guess who was scoring lower on that, right? So women were scoring lower on their belief that they could do it. And so how do we help girls and women align their confidence and their capacity?
Scott Allen :Yes
Julie Owen :Because I, this is definitely true in my institution, which is almost open access we have so students coming in from all over, they have so much talent and skill, but they don't believe they can use it, so they're not gonna, right? So we prevent enactment of leadership. They're not enacting it, if they don't believe that they can, even if they have all the capacity in the world. So first of all, we got to connect those two things. So doing good Bandura, efficacy building if you're a nerd out there and like your Social Learning Theory, right? But, you know, we need to build people's ethical leadership. And there are all kinds of ways to do that. And some of them are, you know, Bandura has fancy terms like inactive mastery, but that means just what you're talking about, like with your article, trying and not being afraid of failing, it means having mentors and role models to do this work. So there's a whole bunch of things to do for that, but that's the most important thing. And then we need to interrupt these unhealthy cycles for women. We didn't get to talk about this yet, but one of the things I think that surprised me in the book is this idea of effortless perfection.
Scott Allen :Okay.
Julie Owen :Again, I think this is media driven. But that girls, especially in women feel like they have to be perfect all the time. But that it doesn't take any effort. So they have look perfect, get perfect grades, be the leader and everything, but not show and you struggle with that. And, it's coupled to me it becomes insidious, right. It's bad enough to have to feel like being everyone's perfect because no one's perfect. But that is coupled with something called imposter syndrome, which is the worry that you're gonna be found out. So you see this vicious cycle, right? Of like, "I need to be perfect. Oh my God, I'm not perfect."
Scott Allen :Yes,
Julie Owen :someone's going to find me out, this is where that anxieties... so I try to tell my students you know, "comparison is the thief of joy." I don't know who said that, who right that but, stop doing that! And and sort of no one is perfect this language my nephew introduced me to this terrible language of the "tryhards" Do you know this language Scott?
Scott Allen :I don't.
Julie Owen :You're such a "try hard." It's a bad thing like people who showed they studied or who it's almost kind of similar to "extra," "your extra" like "what? that sounds wonderful! something extra that seems great!" or like, "oh, that's so nice. They're trying hard!" and he's like, "no, no, no, you're not getting it." You know, he's been educating me that I misinterpreting...hese are supposed to be slurs, ways to denigrate people, and I'm like, gosh, we got to nip that in the bud. Right? That's unhealthy language to critique people who are as "try hards." Anyway, I'm sure millennials out there laughing at me. So those are a couple things I think women can do.
Scott Allen :I love it. I love it. And how about if I'm a leadership educator, if I'm a program architect I'm putting, putting together regardless of age, what are some things I should have on my radar?
Julie Owen :Well, this is this idea of I don't know if you've heard of the language of "precarious pedestal," of leadership. And so, this is this idea that most of the research has been done in the past and even how we practice leadership is we sort of look at how women lead differently than men. So all of our research, all of our programs are framed in these like comparative and binary ways. And feminine leaders are like caring collaborative, and male leaders are like assertive lone wolves, which again, doesn't describe you got it all right, like you're the most collaborative, caring person I know. So this is messed up. We have to stop doing that we have to stop having these compartive kind of binary approaches to leadership because it makes for a precarious pedastal. So if I'm a woman that leaves more agentic assertive ways. all of asudden am I not leader because I don't fit women's ways of leading? Or if you're a caring, collaborative, male leader Scott, does that mean you're less of a leader because you don't fit the lone wolf archetype, right?
Scott Allen :Yes.
Julie Owen :So that's reinforcing like this how essentialist and heteronormative ways of being. So we've got our like re-language, all of that. So I encourage leadership educators to do that. I draw a lot of Paige Haber-Curran and Dan Tillapaugh had a wonderful New Direction in Student Leadership on gender that I stole so much from so shout out to them - Thank you Paige and Dan. But they include Heather Shea & Kris Renn's work, they talked about moving from feminine to feminist leadership. And that's what we're talking about, like, stop talking about feminine ways of leading and start looking at feminist leadership where you actually kind of, own your story and like how you acknowledge power and leadership. So there's some really good readings I think. So anyway, so I just feminine feminist leadership, I think that's an important distinction to me, and to make sure our programs aren't setting up gender differences to be on precarious pedestals... because, I don't have you at my campus, we're also i'm finding more and more students identify as gender fluid or gender non-binary. So a little struggle I had in this is like, is this book even dated itself? Is it even too late to write a book about women leadership? Should I be writing more broadly about gender and leadership, especially I know a lot of women's centers are now become more inclusive around who that space is for. So I had a little moment of like, is this whole concept of women's leadership outdated and then I had to re...students told me "no, we still need this because all these issues we've talked about for the last hour" or so
Scott Allen :Sure, sure. It may not be on the cutting edge, but it's a bridge. Talk more about the distinction from in you just said it. Would you talk a little bit more about feminine versus feminist leadership. Is that was that the distinction that you said?
Julie Owen :That's it. So again, and this is the work of Heather Shea & Kris Renn, but so this idea of to their sweet interconnected tools of feminist leadership, we're talking about feminine leadership. We sort of are looking at what women do better than men or it's always comparative. And we put people on these pedestals of your great women's leader. It's just like Serena, if you like tennis at all, like, "You're such a good...are you the best women's play in the world?" She's like,"I'm the best player Darn it." So all these places, and thank god Ab Murray, and if you're a fan, but he likes re-language too. And so there's more more places instead of looking at, are you the best women's leader? You know, are you...let's get rid of all that and talk about who's good at leadership, right? He's good at tennis. Instead of having to genderize it all the time. So getting rid of that outcall that like feminine kind of approach is binary comparative approach and move into feminist leadership. And they have sort of three elements of feminist leadership, one is using and subverting power structures. So basically, how do we counteract feelings of powerlessness that many women face and work to balance power? Second, is complicating difference, which means don't let people get away with these dualistic notions of gender, you know man, woman. And then also I add end dualistic notions of leadership leader/follower, right? I like to teach my classes and say, we're going to have we're going to teach "Welcome to Leadership 101, were not going to use the word 'leader' at all this semester. And every time you do, I'm going to buzz you." Like, let's talk about what happens without embodying in a person!
Scott Allen :What word do you use if you're not using leader and follower, are you using collaborators?
Julie Owen :Yeah, let's talk about let's see, we have talked about leadership and the drivers of leadership, without talking about...making it person centered, though, it's really hard to do actually, if you get into it,
Scott Allen :Yes.
Julie Owen :And this this actually leads to this funny moment in the book where one of the chapters like de-gendering leadership, we have to stop this binary nonsense. We need to talk about leadership of a non-gendered experience, and Trisha Teig who's at the University of Denver, I had this amazing group of women called critical friends, yeah, well, they met as I was writing the book, and they were telling me about the part behind me and making it better and more inclusive and more intersectional. So I relied on the brilliance of emerging young scholars who already thought you'd have a lot of so much wisdom, but often not honored that wisdom. She's like, "Julie, I think you're talking about regenerating leadership." So I couldn't come to terms...she was like "we live in our bodies, we can't disconnect the leader from the process. We can't connect that disconnect the gender with the person." So this is getting way too philosophical for Phronesis which is apparently about action. But so I didn't I didn't answer the question. So in the chapter I write about, is it degendering or regenedering? And I raise it for using the book to do their own exploration?
Scott Allen :Wow
Julie Owen :That's how we roll.
Scott Allen :How about one more, How about one more for program architects? And then we're, we're gonna close it down here in a little bit. I have three lightning round questions for you.
Julie Owen :Oh, good. Okay.
Scott Allen :But maybe one more for program architects...considerations.
Julie Owen :I would say word choice matters. Marketing matters. You know, I used to teach a class called, at Maryland, University of Maryland called Advanced Leader Development. And again, the people who felt confident taking that class tended to be white men who are in positions already. So it's like, "Who am I developing here?" You know, they were great, but we had amazing courses, but there was many communities and identities who were not having the confidence to sort of show up to Advance Leader Development. Then we changed it to "change making" or I can't remember, but it was something more inclusive. And all of a sudden, it was amazing how changing one word on any of our programs and classes shifted, who showed up and who felt comfortable coming. So I mean, I feel like this whole women leadership, I've been having great success teaching courses about leadership and having people who actually would never take a feminism class or Women & Gender Studies class show up.
Scott Allen :Yes.
Julie Owen :And so it's almost subversive and they're, and they're like, "I don't think this is gonna be about this stuff." And then they were like, "I think I'm a feminist" by the end, which is not necessarily, I mean, it's a subtle goal of mine, it's not in the syllabus, it's no my goal. But it's amazing how we're able to teach, we're attracting, I'm attracting populations who wouldn't show up at sort of a feminist program by using women in a leadership.
Scott Allen :Yeah. Hmm.
Julie Owen :So what do you call it what you call it matters.
Scott Allen :I love the notion of words matter. And I'm, at least as I've had conversations with different individuals on the podcast, I think of there's a gentleman I don't know if you know, Ed O'Malley, he's at the Kansas Leadership Center, and they have done a very nice job of how they craft their language. And it's really, it's had an impact on me, and then it resurfaces here in our conversation about how language matters and who we attract. And I'm looking forward to reflecting on that because I know I have some work to do in that space for sure.
Julie Owen :And we all do and again, like I said, being open to students telling us where they feel included or not seen is really, important.
Scott Allen :Yeah, yep. Well, Julie, so I have three questions for you. And and the first one is, what are you streaming right now? What are you watching? And it could be something that's reminding you of leadership or kind of aligns with the conversation we've just had. Or it could be, you know, Tiger King, who knows, which is an example of bad leadership through and through, but what have you been watching lately?
Julie Owen :Well, yeah, definitely. I guess a couple things align have been. My students have been really into the show Unorthodox, which is about a woman leaving, Orthodox Judaism and all sort of the feminist journey. So that's a Netflix streaming now, so I've been watching that...I'm not done with it, so don't spoil the ending. But more I'm more interested in I don't know, I love Snowpiercer, the 2013 Joon Ho film, I don't know if you've read the book or seen the movie, but now there's a series on it, Daveed Diggs, from Hamilton. Just premiered. So you got to check out Snowpiercer. It's a post apocalyptic, like the world is under global warming is so bad that we tried to put see the atmosphere with ice we created another ice age and the only way to stay alive is to be on this train whick kinda keeps moving around the globe to prevent freezing of all the poor people in the back of it the struggle to the front where are the rich people are in the train, where all the good stuff, anyway, it's it's great...Snowpiercer check it out you would like it
Scott Allen :Okay, awesome...and what what are some of your favorite podcasts that you've been listening to? And I know, you mentioned you haven't been listening to them lately in the last couple months but are there podcasts that stand out for you that listeners might be interested in?
Julie Owen :Well again? I Yes. Since, I'm not commuting, I'm not, and I have a very narrow, like I because i think and talk so much about leadership. I don't do a lot of heavy watching in my listening about, although I need to do more of the Phroneis and NASPA has a great leadership podcast, right? I need to be listening to more leadership podcasts. I like the Nerdist you know, really nerdy stuff. Have you listened to Nerdist? But it's awesome. And Wendy,
Scott Allen :I haven't
Julie Owen :Wendy Wagner introduced me to Pop Culture Happy Hour, which has become a great addiction, where they talk about Schitt's Creek and Survivor. And you know, Brene Brown, I don't know, I don't I have a very eclectic, uninformed, probably podcast, what do you like to listen to? What are your favorite podcasts besides your own? Of course...
Scott Allen :besides, "I really only listen to Phronesis!" actually, that's kind of true, because the editing and such...but you know, there's one there's, there's a company in California called Ark Invest. And they are all about technologies enabling disruption. And so this is it's called For Your Innovation. And it's a it's a podcast that that talks about cutting edge technologies that are being introduced or shifting how we exist. So for instance, there might be an episode on micro mobility, you know, a little bird scooters and such and they look at the economics behind those and the technology behind that. So that or maybe even how I built this is something that I I've been spending some time listening to I need to jump into the podcasts that Dan Jenkins, I need to I need to jump into that podcast as well. Yeah, not not too much other than that, especially like you said, now that I'm not in the car. I'll listen to Joe Rogan sometimes when he has on a world class scientist. I don't listen to, and he's a he's an interesting character...
Julie Owen :Yeah, he is.
Scott Allen :But we feel when he has on some some folks that are like David Sinclair from Harvard, or Lex Friedman from MIT, I tend to listen to those as well. So and, and I like his interview style for them, because he makes them, he makes Neil deGrasse Tyson or Brian Greene, explain, you know, physics in a simplistic manner. And I love that because I need that. And how about reading?
Julie Owen :Yeah, I'm a big I'm a big fiction reader. So I probably read 52 books a year, is my goals. Oh, yeah. Um, I think it's because I have no kids...I'm able to do that probably. But I'm the best book I've read recently is Barbara Kingsolver. I don't know if you read the The Poisonwood Bible or know her works amazing and her nonfiction is good too. She writes about local agriculture, Animal, Vegetable, Miracle, great, but her latest one is called Unsheltered. And it's so good and it's a story about a family facing housing insecurity in modern world and they're in the house and it flashes back to the 1800s and like what insecurity look like then, and how we feel like we are progressing, and solving problems but really these problems are ubiquitous and sort of always existed, so, but it's written in a really juicy like good ways you know, you made it on the treadmill if you wanted to. So it's such such a good book. So anyway, I have a book club about that tomorrow night1
Scott Allen :Well, and so, how can people find your work how can we learn more about you Julie?
Julie Owen :I'm I'm terrible with I do not have my own website or any of I know Scott shaking his head he can't see but but about sort of stuff. The promotion of my stuff I'm listed under it's https://integrative.gmu.edu/people/jowen4. So you can find sort of my bio and information and contact information. I'm @julie_gmu on Twitter. And for the book I've got great news for your listeners. You can get the book at styluspub.com. And if you use the code SPR30 you get 30% off. So, till June 30. Styluspub.com the book is - We are the Leaders We Have Been Waiting For: Women and Leadership Development in College. There's also a facilitation guide that includes modules for doing exercises on each of the chapters. It's also sold as a separate companion.
Scott Allen :Great, well, Julie, you have helped us think differently about leadership. You've helped expand our knowledge and for that I am so thankful, we really appreciate you taking the time today. I hope you have an incredible Summer It's May when we're recording this so we're looking towards summer. I know you're not in Europe right now and abroad. But, I hope I hope you have a wonderful summer nonetheless.
Julie Owen :Thank you so much, Scott. Always a pleasure to talk to you I always find myself thinking in new ways so I appreicate it. An opportunity for sure!
Scott Allen :Take care
Julie Owen :You too.
Scott Allen :I have listened to our conversation probably two or three times at this point. And you know what, I have one primary reflection. And and that is that I have a lot of learning to do. So yesterday, I went to Amazon and purchased Julie's book. And, I hope all of you do as well because this is a critical topic. And I think it's an opportunity. I know it's an opportunity for me. And I imagine some of you who listen today also see learning in this space as an opportunity. I think we owe it to our students as educators, and I think we owe it to ourselves as we learn and grow. So please, if you would go ahead to the website that's in the show notes, and purchase Julie's book as well. I think we will all be better for it. You have been listening to the practical wisdom for leaders podcast. If you liked what you heard, please share it with others and let them know what we're up to. And one last quick reminder to click Subscribe so you know when we publish new episodes, and of course, we'd love to hear your feedback. You can stay in touch with me by visiting www.scottjallen.net or any number of social media platforms be well be safe and make a difference wherever you are on this beautiful planet. And now, here's Kate's twin sister Emily, with the outro.
Emily Allen :You have been listening to Phronesis: Practical Wisdom With Scott Allen