Episode six features a relevant and timely conversation with Dr. Susan Komives, Professor Emerita at the University of Maryland. We had a wonderful discussion about a wide range of topics within the domain of leadership education. For those interested in developing their knowledge, skills, and abilities, Susan explores several insights. For those tasked with developing leaders, Susan shares her wisdom and reminds us that our ultimate goal is to prepare men and women to create community any place they may go...
Quotes from This Episode
Resources/Links to Discussion Topics:
Episode six features a relevant and timely conversation with Dr. Susan Komives, Professor Emerita at the University of Maryland. We had a wonderful discussion about a wide range of topics within the domain of leadership education. For those interested in developing their knowledge, skills, and abilities, Susan explores several insights. For those tasked with developing leaders, Susan shares her wisdom and reminds us that our ultimate goal is to prepare men and women to create community any place they may go...
Quotes from This Episode
Resources/Links to Discussion Topics:
Phronesis. Practical wisdom with Scott Allen.
Scott Allen :Hello, I am Scott Allen and thanks to my daughter Kate for developing the intro to the practical wisdom for leaders Podcast, where we offer a smart, fast paced discussion and all things leadership. My guests help us explore timely topics and incorporate practical tips to help you make a difference in how you lead and live. If you haven't done so, please click subscribe so you automatically seamlessly stay in the know when we publish new episodes. Likewise, please provide me with feedback. What do you like? What do you dislike and what else would you like to know? And now today's show. My guest today is Susan Komives. She is Professor Emeritus from the University of Maryland and Susan does not know I'm going to do this and I warned her just literally 30 seconds ago, but probably, oh gosh, it might be eight years ago now she received an award from the Association of leadership educators. And we asked men and women to share some words some thoughts about Susan. And so, this is just going to give you a snapshot of how she is thought of by the community of leadership educators. So from Laura Osteen, we heard "compassionate scholarly mom with high expectations." Jackie Bruce said Susan equals leader, mentor, guide and trailblazer. Marcy Shankman said authentic, bold caring, teaches, loves and inspires. Barry Boyd said greatest contributor to student leadership, education and yours truly, I said a warm heart, A beautiful mind. So Susan, welcome! And thank you for being with us today.
Susan Komives :Well, I'm surprised, and I'd like to know her. She sounds great! That was a lovely moment and to have just, it's amazing what people could say that meant so much with just four words, isn't it, though, isn't it though?
Scott Allen :Well, you I would love to hear briefly, your story of getting into your area of expertise, leadership education. So could you take listeners through that journey in just a few minutes?
Susan Komives :Sure, I'd be glad to and in just a few minutes, it would be getting interested in leadership and leadership development. Even as an undergrad I was a math major at Florida State but what I love doing was student government and being a Resident Assistant, being in a sorority and being on the President's Advisory Board and decided then to go into Student Affairs work and higher education. So I realized there was a whole field of study there and went to grad school there at Florida State didn't even know that I should look at other programs. I was a first generation student, and therefore didn't know that when I got into one of the top ones in the country that I should have been really scared about that instead of expecting, but that my eyes just opened up to what higher education does in our country, what Student Affairs does to promote the worth and dignity of each student and help everyone develop to their fullest into their capacity. And that so resonated with philosophies that I held about myself and my peers and what became my own students and my own colleagues. So that led to a career for 18 years in student affairs practice. So I was in several positions of both large and small colleges, University of Tennessee Denison, Stevens College, University of Tampa, and was Vice President for Student Affairs at two of those in those 18 years, and then followed a passion to go into grad faculty work and join the faculty in 1987. At the University of Maryland. Along the way, I had been active in national associations, I became president of two of those. But the the message was in while in practice, I started doing leadership courses, I started intentionally doing leadership development work with our students as well as our staff. And then when I got to Maryland, one of my several research areas was leadership. It then became the only one. So early and quickly became, in my 25 years at the University of Maryland, the primary area to advance so we started in 1990, the National Clearinghouse for leadership programs, we started the national leadership symposium leadership educator Institute, I started forming research teams on topics that we needed more scholarship on that resulted in things like the leadership identity development model. John Dugan was one of our doctoral students and John and I started the Multi Institutional Study of leadership based on the Social Change Model, which I had been on in the 90s. And so we just had a marvelous Camelot experience with bringing together remarkable leadership educators and people who wanted to do leadership work for college students in the collegiate setting. And of course, it also means just young adult leadership development and, and people leadership development because college students don't just happen to be people, they are people who happen to be college students. So we did got to do a whole lot of terrific work, I think contributing to that development. And I say we on purpose, both from a philosophy that I have about leadership, but also, it took all of us doing this together with different areas of expertise to make such an impact. So it's been a marvelous career. I retired in 2012. And even into this eighth year of retirement, I'm doing some contributions with the New Directions for Leadership series, which is a quarterly monograph type publication that's available through Wiley online.
Scott Allen :Well, so for those listening, many of you are familiar with Susan's work. And some of you are becoming familiar with Susan's work, but she really is a pioneer. And in her wake at the University of Maryland, were just any number of really wonderful thinkers and wonderful scholars on the topic of leadership. And, so I'm so excited for this conversation. We were going back and forth before we got to today, and and you had given me a list of topics that we could cover, which was wonderful, and I wrote you back and I said, I want the totality of your wisdom. And, that's what I'm excited to mine today is the totality of of Susan's wisdom. And so, I think today we're going to focus our time, really on leadership educators or program architects and leadership learners? And so, how about if we start with leadership learners, if you were, let's say you meet a young man or a young woman, or really anyone, to your point a human, and they say I want to get better at leadership, what are maybe four pieces of wisdom that you would share with them? What is it that you know, in your heart? Or maybe because of the research, that they should focus on?
Susan Komives :That's a that's a wonderful question and harder than one might think to try and answer. But the way you just framed it then is different than seeing it written in writing, you know, in an email saying this is what I'm going to ask you. The way you just said it triggered the counselor in me. And for many years, of course, doing counseling with students and anything with students when you're one-to-one is a counseling kind of session. But it triggered in me that I would first want to get to know them better. And the key question I've probably learned to ask that guides and shapes anything I might say to that student is, "Tell me what you used to think leadership was and what do you think it is now?" And that question becomes an indicator of where their own developmental journey might be, where they may be in their perception of what leadership is, at least as their philosophies might have framed it. And from that we can build on how can they deepen and broaden that and maybe how can I nudge them toward what I think might be more complex thinking if it doesn't happen to be where they are. So if a student says, "Well, I used to think leadership was being playground leader now I think it's when I'm in charge of a group and I'm up front, I've got to make sure everybody participates and we get something done," that in our leadership, identity development research, that says a lot to me about what they can hear right now, and how I might have to work with to nudge them to some broader thinking,
Scott Allen :Well, and I love that personalization, I have never thought of it that way that I, first I would want to get to know them better - build a relationship. But then, I would also want to better understand where they are in their own conception of what leadership is. That's just beautiful, Susan.
Susan Komives :I don't think I would have thought to say that 20 years ago, even though 20 years ago in my 50s, I've done a whole lot of leadership work, but the leadership identity development kind of process in our research showed that to be a developmental process really helped me come to the realization that first of all, we need to find out some approximation of where that student might be. And then secondly, that it because it's developmental, where might we want to then take that so I'm glad that that was a kind of a new thought for you too. I would then go on to, and I think probably Anybody that you asked that question of would have to say that you've got to know yourself. So asking the the student a question or person a question of, "what did you used to think leadership was? And what do you think it is now?," opens the door to say, what are your strengths and weaknesses? And what are your motivations for wanting to learn more about leadership? And what's your passion? What are you committed to? Is there a cause that you're working on? Or is it just wanting to be involved in wanting to be more effective in everything you do? So once you start shaping why the person wants to get involved more with leadership development for themselves, you have a route to go, I would want that knowing yourself thing to come out with for anybody, whatever philosophy of leadership they embrace, I would want them to come out of that with saying I'm a person of character that I, I strive to be and I see myself as ethical and honest and trustworthy, trustful, that those are important values to me if I can get them to a place to talk about ethics and, and honesty and trust, that's a core in any philosophy of leadership that anyone might be talking with you about Scott, we all maybe have slightly different philosophies, but those are core principles.
Scott Allen :So I have not heard that before either, but I love it. So you're gonna start with getting to know them better understanding where they see the concept of leadership and their own understanding and perspectives on the topic, but then also going straight to the character discussion in the values discussion and as a foundation from which then we work.
Susan Komives :Yes, although it might not be straight to it as a leadership educator, there are some stages or steps, probably in the experience, and then the conversation and discussion where you then get to reflecting on what values does that show about you, what's important to you, and why did you act that way, what examples can you give me of another time you acted that way because you thought it was the right thing to do. And out of that, you process the meaning making, that it's honesty is important, and ethics are important, and to be a person of character to me is very, very important. Now, if someone, "What if someone didn't say that?"...I want to get ahead at all cost be the richest person I know. And I don't care how many bloody bodies are along the wayside? You know, I would that would be a very different conversation.
Scott Allen :Yes, that would be that would be. So what else? What else are you thinking about when it comes to someone who's interested in learning about leadership? Where do they start?
Susan Komives :Well, I think another starting question is, can you identify your philosophies and beliefs about leadership? What do you think leadership is, and what if it was a philosophy you're practicing, "what is that philosophy about?" So someone saying that it's the person in charge of the room, but really He needs to handle that well and effectively and get things done, or is it someone saying it's a process of all of us together and I need to be good in that process, I may be in charge, or I may be a member, but I'm responsible still for helping that organization get something done. Those are two very different philosophies. One being more of a leader centric entity kind of approach, and the other being leadership is a process, and leadership is a phenomena among members of a group. And then you build the skills depending on where the person's philosophy may be. I certainly have developed at this point in life, of philosophy that yes, there's both I mean, you you bring yourself to a leadership context. And so you've got to keep being the best person you can be, whatever, what will you may have, but seeing leadership as a process among people who are interdependent on each other, shares that responsibility then and it makes you feel accountable to the community of people that are together, and not just wait for the leader to tell you what to do, and then push back or go along with that you have a responsibility to shape it in the philosophy, I would hope.
Scott Allen :Well, so it's and it's not a it's not a solo sport, so to speak. It's not about just me. It's about we and about the people who are mobilizing to achieve whatever the cause might be.
Susan Komives :That's right, except. That's exactly right, except I would say if the person, this hypothetical person you and I have created that we're talking about, if that person is at what stage that in their leadership development that I think most are to say, I think it's "when I'm responsible for a group and I'm in charge and I have the title of director or chair or supervisor then then I should do certain things." I would want them to practice those things that are inclusive, and engaging, and respectful, and collaborative and I would still work with them on..."Okay, so when you're in charge of a group, what's important to you about it The members feel, and how you're going to get them motivated?" And you know, and if you meet that person where they are, you can get them to see better ways of being. And it becomes a transition for them and their development to seeing leadership differently. But at that point, they're still seeing it as I'm learning to be better in what I have to do. Eventually, you can make meaning with them and say, and "do you see that leadership might be something else too?"
Scott Allen :Brilliant, brilliant. And what else comes to mind? What else would take us a little bit further down the road now.
Susan Komives :Well, I probably signaled it by say using the word "inclusive." I think that anyone that wants to expand their abilities to be effective as a leader, or work well with others, needs to know how to be inclusive -needs to be able to observe...let's take a group setting which is where leadership typically happens, but it needs to look around and say who hasn't spoken yet? Is there somebody that I could bring into the conversation? Is there some perspective that's not being shared? Even even if there's not, for example, a person of color in the room, shouldn't we be examining diverse perspectives on this topic because it applies to more people than just the four of us who are sitting here. So let's look at it from diverse perspectives, and see if we would come up with a different decision. Being inclusive means looking and saying what's blocking or keeping someone from participating? Who has clearly something to offer. So it is blocking, meaning they don't have enough information yet on this committee they've just joined, is blocking, they're the youngest member of the group and they think they should just shut up and because the messages in the organization are, get the lay of the land before you say anything, because you don't want to walk into any landmines. And maybe the group needs to say, you know, the smartest person here is the newest who joined us because they can see us more clearly than we probably can clearly see ourselves. So what are you observing that you wonder why this organization does things like it does when you've come from another environment, you can then ask us questions that get us to re-examine what we're doing. But that's inviting somebody into the conversation that otherwise you just might sit there thinking, "Oh, good, they're being quiet like they should, because they're new. One shouldn't say anything yet." So I think being inclusive means of ideas, of people, of people because of their diversity, and they may be oppressed, or there may not be welcoming environments that they're experiencing in the organization. But anybody in a leader role and anybody in a leadership context should look at making it an inclusive environment.
Scott Allen :I would love to talk a little bit more about that. So So for instance, this concept for me, I graduated college in 1995. I don't know that this was a concept that ever even entered a dialogue that I was in at the time I was an undergraduate. Now of course, this conversation has has evolved in recent years. Over the last couple decades and of course for multiple decades, but I'm a white guy from the suburbs of Minneapolis. And it just hadn't been something I'd ever had to confront. So how do you help me? Better empathize? How do you help me better understand? What are some ways you've or techniques you've seen to help people? Because I believe in in part, there's some skill. It's a mindset, but it's also there's some skill in this activity. Would you agree?
Susan Komives :Oh, absolutely. When you introduced our session today. You said you also are going to ask me questions about being a leadership educator or someone who designs, and plans leadership experiences. And I very much think that one of those that I think you're signaling now is scaffolding building competencies and skills. So if we expect someone to have "social perspective taking" abilities and see things from someone one else's point of view, if we expect them to, if we see a good really competent workers, one who can reframe a concept or an issue from others perspectives, so could take an economic view on it, a social view, a cultural view, a, an educational view, health systems view. If someone can take different perspectives, they've learned how to do that. So what are the foundational skills and being able to do that? Well, one of those are listening skills. So how do we in leadership coursework really spend time, on when we're talking about communications, on effective and eloquent listening? How do you listen, Langston Hughes has a character named Jessie Simple in one of his books, and Jessie simple says "we need to learn to listen eloquently." So how do we listen so eloquently, that we reflect back even greater meaning than the person might have been aware they were transmitting, you know, but you put it together in a way that they go, "exactly. That's beautiful. That's what I was trying to say." So listening eloquently and Senge another's get into it by you know first listened to understand and to be understood that kind of thing. But it goes back to that as a basic principle so listening becomes a foundational skill for lots of things conflict resolution, perspective taking, etc. And there would be other scaffolded skills that if you practice them intentionally and there'll be ways to do that their activities one can do where you would assign people roles in the group and you are to play a character who is from a context like you're the economist in the group, or someone is the community youth activist organizer. When they play for more role you're helping them you're enabling them to practice what might be the perspectives from and legitimate points of view people bring from that position?
Scott Allen :Well, let's let's make that switch switch because we're almost we're almost halfway through our time. Oh, amazingly. Yes, yes, it's it's almost been 20 minutes. So let's make the switch or the shift over to the leadership educator, or program architect. I loved the verbiage you used of scaffolding. And so could we go down that road for a little bit more? What? What are some other foundational topics or content for you as you think about developing or designing some type of learning experience? I love how you honed in on listening. And so are there others that come to mind for you that need to be present before we can move on to additional layers or additional levels of knowledge or content.
Susan Komives :Well, that's certainly a good one. I should have created a list or reviewed some of that material one we've also mentioned, which is understanding self proceeds understanding others, so if you can't articulate your own, let me read let me state that positively. Until you can articulate your own values, motivations, you might not be as competent at understanding the values and peeling away the layers of behavior to get at the meaning of values for someone else. If you start with yourself and say, I do the following action, because I believe in this, how can you connect your actions in your belief and then another person acts this way, might it be because they believe in what you know, so there'll be ways to transfer that self to others concept. But there are lots of ways to break down the complexity of capacities, decision, you know anything about things leaders, and people involved in leadership, bring in a group setting, decision making, and lots of skills like that, that what's foundational to being effective in decision making? Well identifying alternatives looking at points of view, you know, they'd be, they'd be capacities one could break down in a scaffolding way and start with some of those to build to using them, then in better decision-making Corey Seemiller and her colleagues latest research was around which capacities are higher level or more complex, which ones are more simple. And then if you bundle these so that you're, you're introducing the simpler ones to build intentionally toward a more complex one, it would be that kind of scaffolding.
Scott Allen :I was not aware that Corey was doing some of that work. But that's wonderful. Because I think that provides the roadmap for us to begin building a coherent curriculum that to use your language scaffolds in a really beautiful way. I was speaking with K. Anders Ericsson, who's an expert on expertise, and how people in any domain develop expertise. And that was one of his tenants that, that we have a clearly designed program that scaffolds or that builds Upon skill over skill over skill over skill until we get to some very complex, nuanced content. And I don't know that program architects always have that in mind.
Susan Komives :David Day has done some work in this area too on leader development, different from leadership development,
Scott Allen :Say more.
Susan Komives :Well, some of it relates to the things we were talking about not just what an individual needs to learn to do, but also what then a group needs to learn to do better leadership. shared leadership, facilitated leadership, in the group setting. So there's the individual component, but there is the group component. And we do we don't do as much intentional work, I think around group development, or indeed at a systems level, community development, beyond that. So what are the skills involved in looking at the group dynamics of a functional or a toxic group and figuring out what's happening and what could be more effective. All those are more complex skills than doing it just for yourself.
Scott Allen :What else? What else comes to mind for you as you're thinking about helping a leadership educator or program architect design, an experience that's meaningful?
Susan Komives :Yeah. Well, I'll go back to what I was just signaling through that answer, which is, I think any leadership educator or architect of curriculum and experiences, as you were describing, need to be doing a multi-level analysis and multi-level designing multi-level experiences. It's kind of like me, me in a group, my group in an organization or a community. and what needs to happen at all those levels for us to be more effective individually and working? How can I be better in the group setting when I'm not the leader when I am the leader in terms of positional leader, but how can I be better in a community setting when I'm a member of multiple groups and could help network those or form coalition's among those, so "the PTA I'm in and in my church group really should be working together on this problem not separately." But even within them, that multi-unit analysis the community can develop to communities can be better at working together. Higher education is a good example of that many of us work in the higher ed system. And yet we have silos of faculty, student affairs, advancement, budget, finance, IT...and some of the silos don't work together at all. And we need to find ways in the students' subcultures the same way. So multi-level work, I think is critical, and that moves the person from just seeing "me alone as the leader" to seeing "me within a system and the elements of that system." The groups in the communities also need to be developed.
Scott Allen :How long might this take? When we think about time, because I'm seeing series and series of courses and of course there's there's undergraduate degrees that students can receive and there's graduate and PhDs in the topic of leadership, have you come across a curriculum in an academic institution that you think does what you just said in a really beautiful way? Have you come across that, Susan?
Susan Komives :I haven't examined curricula with that...that's a great question. So people who have like Matt Sowcik and some others who have looked at business curriculums or looked at curriculums, but the places like the University of San Diego and Antioch, and other places with doctoral studies in leadership, but most people aren't going to go get a doctorate in leadership. The average person with their bachelor's degree in some major, business or whatever it is, are going to be engaging in their careers and professions. So I think a lot of that has to be ongoing professional development work, we need to be delivering this and maybe Zoom coming into everybody's lives, because of this quarantine. People will become comfortable doing online courses or online professional development. I don't think that it's hard...once one decides to learn it, it's not hard to get that The idea of we all function in a system, I'm part of embedded organizations that are embedded in each other, and if you hold the philosophy of leadership that I'm responsible for the ones that matter to me, to make them effective, then you go into any of those with a bigger commitment to the community of that organization, to the processes they're using, you're willing to step up and do your part. And then you get the group maybe looking at how we can be more effective together, so you take that philosophy with you and enact it. I'm not sure. And yes, I think it can be taught, but I'm not sure that most people are going to go through the learning of it. I think the one entity in our country, and I agree with Kellerman on this hundred percent. I don't agree with her 100% on everything, but I agree with Kellerman, that the entity that's done the best job of intentional lifelong leadership development in our country is the military, and they've embedded a system of values, and practices that support values, they have ongoing developed that's scaffolded over all these layers. And I saw this when our son was in ROTC. So here Here he is now Lieutenant Colonel Jeffrey Komives this with his PhD from Minnesota, by the way in aerospace engineering. So this is our son, the rocket scientists. His ROTC experience was phenomenal, and how it took him from first year with certain skills that he learned up to junior year, where he had responsibility for a group, they had 360 feedback, he actually got given written feedback on how he was doing as an officer. And that has continued now for his 20 years or so that he's been in the military. And it's phenomenal to see the intentional development, the feedback mechanisms, the the training loops that they do to try to ensure that that occurs.
Scott Allen :Well and tell us a couple stories even after his experience in ROTC. What did he share with you that resonated and caught your eye or caught your attention as far as what he was experiencing in the military because I agree with you, I think there's a very, well again, it's scaffolded in a very, very nice way. And then embedded in this whole experience is an opportunity for practice. There's a practice field, where we can engage in drills, and we can reflect ahead of time, or we could pre-flect, we could engage in activity, and then we could, you know, perform an after action review, and really talk through how everything went. Anything else stand out for you and his his experience that stands out for you is just incredibly wonderful developmental opportunities?
Susan Komives :Well, I, I'm sure, I don't know all of his experiences that I like that I do want. Do remind me to come back to after action review, though, I have a comment I wanted to make on that as my suggestions for educators. Let me actually share an experience he had when he was in ROTC. He even called me on this one. I believe it was his sophomore year he was to be responsible. Let me back up. They were starting As a marching band, or some type know, they're starting some kind of a marching drill team or something in his ROTC unit, and they knew from his resume from high school if he'd been a drum major of his high school marching band, so they figured Jeffrey would know how to make get a group of people learning how to do drill routines and do some of this marching. And Jeff also knew that he had learned it on his own because that was the first year that had the marching band, and that some of his freshman first year ROTC members had more experience and he did with that. So he formed a subcommittee of them to come up with teaching the unit to do those kinds of drills. And then he got a major award from the ROTC unit for using the talents and expertise of his own personnel to accomplish the goal with his support and with his guidance, but then he turned to those that did have expertise and supported them and doing that. So they recognized in him that that was a good thing that he did. Not that he didn't have the expertise, or not that he just didn't go ahead and do it. And I thought I thought that was a terrific example.
Scott Allen :Well, it is and the fact that they that they recognize that and rewarded that behavior is a great thing. I mean, it's wonderful, right? And you you wanted to go back to after action review. So what would you like to share there?
Susan Komives :That term that often is associated with the military, but I really do want to encourage certainly that everything we do small group work in our training activities, internship, service learning, all of that, obviously, we know needs reflection, everybody needs to reflect on that. But it's very different to just reflect and to reflect with the target outcome of leadership development or leadership practice. So I can I can talk to five students who just did service learning and say, let's tell me what you got out of that. "What were the biggest takeaways? What did you observe, that you'd like to reflect on?" and come up with a whole bunch of different things, but if I also said, what leadership did you see happening at the site we were in and what leadership would have made a difference in the outcome we were there working with them on which of your own leadership skills did you find really well used in the work that you did? And which ones do you wish you had? That's a very different focus targeted reflection, and then they get leadership out of it. So unless we target the reflection for the outcome goals we have in mind, we aren't going to accomplish them. There's a lot of research on learning outcomes in higher education. And one of the funny studies I saw was that something like I'll make this up, but in probably exaggerate to make the point, but something like 98% of college Provosts said, "Yes, we have learning outcomes, and they're published on our website," but they said only 8% of the students knew what they were something in them but they don't know what it is. You know, tell them, this is to the outcome we're going for because people who know what the outcome is that they're headed for are more likely to accomplish it. So make leadership and intentional outcome.
Scott Allen :Love it. I love it. One more. One more for program architects, anything else come to mind for you, Susan?
Susan Komives :Well, I think we have to teach both group development and community development. I do think people need to know there are stages of development, there are processes, a group has to be able to use well to be effective. And if you know those, you're more likely than to observe them when you see them. Or you're more likely to develop the diagnostic capacity to say, "my group isn't doing this well." You know, it's because people don't know each other. They don't know why people say are saying what they're saying, we really need to spend time talking about the values that brought us to this group or what we all hope to accomplish in this group. Or whatever, but the idea of if you can, if you can observe make meaning out of your observation, in a diagnostic way, you can then intervene as a person trying to make it better a leader, follower. in the group would develop. So group developed like people who know Tuckman's work Some of your, some of your listeners will, some won't. But Tuckman talks about a stage called "storming" in a group. And when you hit the storming stage, people who don't know it, they go, "Oh my god, the group's fallen apart!" Instead of saying, "Yeah, this is normal, that we should expect this is going to happen, we're now at a really important stage to decide what we want our goals to be, and to revisit our purpose." But if you know what's going to happen, you don't treat it as Oh, my God, chicken, little The sky is falling. You say, "this is just a stage folks. And we can figure this out, we can get through this. And we'll be better on the other side."
Scott Allen :So you just made me have...well, I just had a comment that I wanted to make to that. And this could be an incredibly obvious question, Susan, and maybe you're gonna think ill of me for not knowing this literature. But do you know of literature that scaffolds, explicitly scaffolds, what we need to do to build the team? So in the same way, we were discussing the importance of listening, so to speak, or the same way you said, Well, one of the first things I do is I go get to know the individual I get to know the person and I try to better understand how they're framing. Have you seen a very concrete description of how you scaffold group development or team development?
Susan Komives :That's an excellent question. And there are whole courses on Team development. One of the resources I would refer you to that immediately comes to mind is in it's like, 14th edition of the book, which lets you know how long it's been out there. Johnson & Johnson, two men, a father & son, I believe maybe they're brothers, but they have a book called Joining Together. And it is an easily read and used book on how people come together to form groups in teams that can be effective. Then there is a whole team's literature of course out there, but Johnson and Johnson and of course, a lot of what I would draw on from my background is the counseling group counseling literature. So when you get a group together like a therapy group, or a group that's exploring grief or whatever it may be? How do you get that group to develop trust to agree on what they're going to work on together to establish ground rules. And it's very, I think you've, you've really hit on something when I do a lot of consulting these days. One of the things I encourage people to do is in orientation courses, let's teach first year students how to do good group work. When your assigned a group project in a class and they just say, hear you in groups of seven go out and do this project. And nobody teaches them how you do group work. They either think groups are deadly, and worse than cafeteria food, or they think they're Camelot moments because "ours worked out wonderful." And so, we really need to teach group work to first year students so that we have successes in class assignments and not disasters or not left up to serendipity on whether they work or not. So your not alone in needing that information, but we need to make it more accessible. We need to do it and teach students how to do it early in college.
Scott Allen :Well, and it's a life skill, right? If we can build that at the collegiate level or even before then, but if we can build that skill at that point, I mean, that's, that's something that's never gonna go away. Whatever they choose to do and over the course of their career, building a team, and and knowing some of the foundational elements that need to be in place for us to now take the team to the next level, I think, to your point, yes. I mean, that's a life skill. Yes. Wonderful. Susan, we are close on time. Is there anything else that you had in your mind about advice that you'd share with a program architect?
Susan Komives :No, I think I would be repeating if I went back and said anything but I like the concept of community. So if I were to be emphasizing anything it would be to teach people how to create communities around them any place they may go, and in the community, people care about you, you know each other, there's no fear, there is trust operating, and if we can create a feeling of community in any organization that we're in, that we have a responsibility for each other, we care about each other, let's make this work together, then we will have successful groups. So think of it as community building within a group.
Scott Allen :Oh, that's beautiful. That's so well said. We always close out Susan with a little bit of a lightning round. And so I have three or four questions for you, that you can just answer quickly. So what are you streaming right now? Are you watching anything of note that makes you think of leadership or just something that you've been enjoying in general?
Susan Komives :Well, I'll be honest with you, because we're into like streaming heaven these days, aren't we? And we are streaming two of the most opposite shows...we take them in turns. One is The Wire, which we never watched all the time. We were in Baltimore and in the Baltimore area, and I can only take it for so long. But boy, the leadership lessons and the bad leadership that's happening and from the police as well as City Council's, and then into the community, and the drug dealers, just phenomenal and then I flip over to the Great English Baking Show, where it's a gentle culture where the music is nice, they support each other. If your cake drops on the floor, someone else is rushing over to help you pick it up. So we can all do well instead of me just win. So I'm watching The Wire and The Great English Baking Show.
Scott Allen :You were your preface that you preface that beautifully. That is two very different sides of the spectrum. Any podcast that you're listening to right now?
Susan Komives :I don't tend to listen to podcasts. I am listening to the student leadership programs knowledge community podcast with John Mark Day, partly because we just did one last Wednesday, Matt Sowcik and I edited the new directions for student leadership issue on how accurate disciplines approach leadership development. That issue just came out and we were we were the guests on that podcast but I have caught up and listened to several others, but on a regular basis I don't tend to do podcasts.
Scott Allen :Well and what are you reading right now as anything come across your desk that that you just can't put down?
Susan Komives :I'm going to stumble on this one because I just finished...I got into it and put it down and it just finished Becoming, Michelle Obama's book. Oh, I loved it all the way through and then didn't get into the last chapter or two. So I finished that...marvelous book.
Scott Allen :Hmm. Well, and and anything from an academic standpoint, any leadership books that that stand out for you that have come across your desk in recent years?
Susan Komives :Well, I just ordered Julie Owens' new book We are the Leaders We've Been Waiting For. And I listened to the webinar with Julie and some of her colleagues on that book. So I'm looking forward to that arriving.
Scott Allen :Is that not the best title of a book?
Susan Komives :Yeah, it's great.
Scott Allen :I just love that title. I am I'm looking forward to reading that one as well for sure. So I always ask our guests, is there something that from a personal growth standpoint you're working on right now? every one of us are our works in process, is there something that you're working on that you'd be willing to share?
Susan Komives :Well, it's interesting in a Maslow's Hierarchy way, I feel like I've done a whiplash up the pyramid and back down again. So after a wonderful career, I was so enriched and so blessed to have all the things happened. I did all the way up to these self actualization phases. I'm now back down to level one, not just because of the quarantine, but like I had to delay surgery for a cataract and for a bad hip. And so physically, I'm going into this aging process where I'm the youngest of the old people. I'm 74 last week, so I'm not, I know that I'm older, but I'm not old old. But the physical stuff is coming into hidden away that it hasn't until now. So how do I design a life, that's active but accommodates the physical limitations that may be happening.
Scott Allen :Hmm. Well, I'm happy birthday.
Susan Komives :Thank you.
Scott Allen :And you said that in a beautiful way you really did. Huh? And I love you use the word design, didn't you?
Susan Komives :Yeah,
Scott Allen :I love it. I love it
Susan Komives :I think you have to accept what's going to be there change the things that you can, etc. But James Baldwin has a great quote "Not everything that's face can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it's faced." The realist in me says you've got to face the things that you know you can't change. Do what you can about them...in this case ailments, but go ahead and face them and don't hide them and do something about it.
Scott Allen :Well, Susan, this is this has been just so much fun. I love I love your mindset. I love your outlook, I really appreciate you sharing your wisdom. I had given a whole bunch of quotes at the very beginning of our time together. And I'm going to just end with with Carrie Stevens. She said, "she is a legend in leadership." And you are, and I can't thank you enough for taking the time to be with us today, share your wisdom, and I know that each one of our listeners is going to get so much as they reflect on the conversation that we've had today.
Susan Komives :Thank you. Thanks.
Scott Allen :We'll be well take care. And we'll talk soon, Susan. Thank you.
Susan Komives :Thank you.
Scott Allen :My conversation with Susan Komives was just a lot of fun, and I'm left with a few things on my mind that I'll continue to reflect upon. So first, there's this whole notion of scaffolding. And so if we're going to design a curriculum, what are some of the lower level items I need to have as skills before I can take on something with greater need for skill. So for instance, listening maybe a skill if I'm trying to train a leader in negotiation. So that was something that really has stuck with me, as I've reflected on our time together. She also suggested that we need diverse perspectives, inviting others into the conversation, are we creating an inclusive environment. And if we're developing leaders, we have to have a multi level experience. So me, me and group, my group in the organization or my group in the community. And looking at this content from multiple levels. There's great value. Now, everything we do has to have a target outcome of leadership, and so as leadership and intentional outcome of all of our endeavors? And then she said something towards the end of our conversation which I'm going to reflect on for some time to come. She said that building leaders is really about creating community, any place they may go. As always, thanks for listening. Take care. Be well. You have been listening to the practical wisdom for leaders podcast. If you liked what you heard, please share it with others and let them know what we're up to. And one last quick reminder to click Subscribe so you know when we publish new episodes, and of course, we'd love to hear your feedback. You can stay in touch with me by visiting www.scottjallen.net or any number of social media platforms. Be well, be safe and make a difference wherever you are on this beautiful planet. And now, here's Kate's twin sister Emily, with the outro
Emily Allen :You've been listening to Phronesis: Practical Wisdom was Scott Allen