Dr. David Rosch - I Have a Fear...

Dr. David Rosch is Director and Associate Professor of Leadership Studies at University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. Dr. Rosch is an expert in the study and practice of developing student leaders. We discuss practical tips for people interested in developing their knowledge, skills, and abilities. We also explore considerations for leadership educators and program architects.

Quotes From This Episode

• “I fear that we're not doing anything that matters.” 
• “It’s not my ability to create great curriculum, it’s about my ability to create connections with the people that are a part of my curriculum that’s really going to make a difference.”
• We need “better mental models and mental representations of leadership.”
• “We need to create communities in stronger ways for these learners to be able to stay in engaged in a process of learning, to stay agile, in their context after the program...after the formal intervention.” 

Resources

• We discussed the following in this episode: Lego Masters, Somm, Revisionist History with Malcolm Gladwell, & Neal Stephenson: Anathem.
• Learn more about David's work by visiting the Journal of Leadership Education - David Rosch, Google Scholar - David Rosch, or Illinois Leader Lab. 

Transcript

spk_0:   0:04
bonuses. Practical wisdom Scott Allen

spk_1:   0:14
Hello, I am Scott Allen. And thanks to my daughter, Kate, for developing the intro to the practical wisdom for Leaders Podcast, where we offer a smart, fast paced discussion in all things leadership. My guests help us explore timely topics and incorporate practical tips to help you make a difference in how you lead and live. If you haven't done so, please click. Subscribe. So you automatically seamlessly stay in the know when we publish new episodes. Likewise, please provide me with feedback. What do you like? What do you dislike and what else would you like to know? And now today's show. So today I am really, really excited to have joining me. Dave Rush from the University of Illinois and he's an incredible guy. And so, Dave, I don't even know that I shared this with you. But I'm gonna do it. So get ready. Sure. You know when when I think of you three words come to mind. And so I was reflecting about this on my run today and so laugh because I always think of you is I think of laughter when I think of you. Prolific, you are a madman when it comes writing and producing, which I Let's see, that was the left right there. You're prolific and curiosity. I mean, you you are just so curious about the world and specifically this topic. And so I think a great place to start would just be Tell us a little bit about you and kind of your path getting here today.

spk_0:   1:47
Sure, sure. Well, thanks. Thanks for the intro, Scott. Those air generate words are I will definitely accept them. There was Ah, Those are compliments. Yes, Yes. For early. All your guests. My name's Dave Rush. I'm a faculty member at the University of Illinois. I teach leadership classes. I run a leadership research lab there. How I got to the show, huh? Let's see. Encapsulate that. So, So many. So many potential answers. What? What? Well, all right, so I'll start here. Uh, I have always that you talked about curiosity, right? Yeah. Yeah, I have. I have always been interested in how people learn to become better leaders. Leadership. It's a hard job. It's a hard thing. There are so many. We have so many more negative examples that we have positive examples in my background has a administratively been in higher ed. I've worked on in colleges and universities for over two decades now and in my professional career, almost all of those years programming putting on experiences for college students, both undergrads and an older graduate students to help them become better leaders. And what I do now in my job is not just do that, but I also my research lab is focused on what are the types of things that lead people to become more effective in those programs. What what has to happen in them that that's going to make it a little bit more efficient. Ah, in terms of cheaper, quicker like what's what's most efficient and what's best in terms of helping people become better leaders. So you and I have a cross paths, I think professionally now for a number of years, and I'm excited to be on your podcast.

spk_1:   3:24
Oh, thank you so much. So tell it. No, I'm so excited to jump into this with you because obviously we've we've talk to conferences. We've had a lot of conversations, but, you know, tell us a little bit about what you're exploring right now. What What are some things that you're learning that you're passionate about, that keep you really cranking these articles out? Because, like I said, you are prolific. And so I think I just asked you, like, five

spk_0:   3:51
questions. So I'm going to start here. Gonna start here. What are you

spk_1:   3:57
working on now? That's just kind of fascinating to you.

spk_0:   4:00
Sure, sure. Let's see. Well, I'll make a tentative stab at getting at that. Maybe some overview. Ah, for all of the things that you threw out, and I'll get into some specifics right after that. So I have I have a fear. Ah, in my research and in the in and what's going on we, as it relates to the leadership development of people in college in my fear, is that we're not doing anything that matters. Okay, is it is s o. I believe. I firmly believe there is a non zero chance that all we're doing in higher ed is separating the people who believe that they're already leaders from the people who do not believe that they're already leaders by conferring on them the official experience of a leadership development program that confirms their that that confirms their their thoughts for those folks and confirms their thoughts for the other folks. Oh, yeah, yeah, and And I say that like you're asking me what's really interesting Now what I've gotten involved in over the just the past couple years of my research is I see the need for long itude inal assessment of data we wanted. We want to use data driven processes in our curriculum development and in the way that we we intentionally plan on our time and these developmental experiences and in the longitudinal research them doing It's it's beginning to show me that were, it's it's equivocal in terms of the results that were getting in that I think there are large swaths of students that months after they go through this, this experience that they say at the moment is transformational months later, their their statistics, at least the the data that they're showing us about how they believe that they can lead their their confidence and leading their motivation to engage in the hard work of leadership. It's little different for a large group of thes students than it was from before they entered the program in the first place, so So that's it's a fear that keeps me up at night. We spend $50 billion on this leadership development enterprise. Uh, in our data, I think the the more rigorously you collect it, the less it shows that we're having transformation as a field itself field itself. So I don't want to say that all of our work is wasted. I'm just saying that the that's the fear that I have. And I'm trying to collect data and do research to see how how deep that rabbit hole goes and in what can we learn about best practices?

spk_1:   6:21
What do you think it is? I mean, what's behind some of the statement you just made? Because I agree with you. That's that's a That's a scary thought. I came across a quote once. It was from an anonymous executive at a large Fortune 500 corporation, and it went something like this. I used it in the paper, but it said, I'm pretty sure we're losing about 50 cents on each dollar. We're investing in training. I just can't tell which 50 cents. Right?

spk_0:   6:47
Right, right, right on.

spk_1:   6:49
And so talk to me. I mean, what are some of your hunches. Obviously, you might not have data tobacco all of this up, but But what do you think? Ing? And we've had some of these conversations and and it's It's a fun, fun conversation because we have a shared objective in designing programming that actually makes a difference. Shocking, Right,

spk_0:   7:07
Right, right, right, Yeah. So? Well, I I'll start out by saying that practicing leadership is hard. It's hard. It's not like you can pull out a recipe book like I like. I'm doing so often now that I'm living at home all the time with my kids, sure making things. There's a recipe for lead, their best practices. But so much of that is adaptive. And when we're talking about adaptive behavior, we're really talking about meaning making. Can people make meaning of what's going on and then act accordingly, right? Let you and I have discussed in the past expertise, right? And one of the things that we know about expertise is that people who are considered experts can quickly diagnosis situation and come up with, um, effective means of solution and then enact that solution effectively. Yes, so leaders need to do that in whatever context there that that they're in, they need to do that in real time. And then the problem. To the extent that say the extent that it's a problem in our programs is that our programs are fake, they're they're structured necessarily, writes Stuart. Our students either physically go to an experience or they virtually go to an experience or they read a book or they have some type of experience that takes them out of their context. And I think that the challenge that we have is leadership educators as developers and trainers is to help them make meaning off what we're giving them in their own context, in their own in their own spaces, so that they could make those diagnoses in real time. So you're asking what's effective, what works, What what's that 50 cents? That makes it That's the good 50 cents. Yeah, I think it's the curriculum that helps them build a bridge from what we want. The knowledge, the capacity, the skill sets that we want to give them. That helps them apply that in their unique context. In a one on one situation,

spk_1:   8:53
when it's so different than training, really so many different other areas. I mean, even even a physician has a finite set of variables that they're navigating. And right now, across the globe, leaders are navigating variable that they never would have predicted with with a pandemic, so to speak, right? Just it and I was I was reflecting this morning on my run. I was thinking about habits of mind. I don't if you've ever really kind of thought about this day of what? What are some habits of mind that we could produce and learners that would help them be successful kind of across contexts? Is that even something you've thought about reflected on? Because I keep coming back to We can't train for every situation, you know? Ah, pilot can at least go sit in a simulator and run through a number of potential situations. Probably not all of them. But we can't so out of those habits of mind that we can develop that will help people be successful in just an infant number of possibilities.

spk_0:   9:59
Yeah, it's it's a good question. And I wish I had a great answer for your Scott. Is that that's it? That's it. Also, it's not just a great question. I think it's It's a highly relevant question, and it may even be the relevant question about how we how we do a better job of leadership education. But the word that I was thinking about as you were describing a Z you were just talking and you're talking about having survived that. The word that came to my mind was agility, and you're talking about going on a run. I'm not. Not necessarily talking about the Julia required did not trip and fall down on your face, but but more met mental agility in to some extent. Really, I think I'm talking about psychological agility right

spk_1:   10:34
and

spk_0:   10:35
being able to create connections like about what's what's similar. What, what what about this thing over here is similar to this other thing that's in my mind right now. So, like in the context of of, ah, leadership training situation, if we just talked about, let's say, emotionally intelligent leadership, right and we have these contexts way have the concepts right, the different areas of emotional, intelligent leadership. Those are awesome concepts. Presumably, I'm going through a training experience that provides some examples. Some context of how that might look in that situation, Jill lady, Mental agility, psychological agility. And the way I'm trying to describe it is is the ability to have a learner be ableto recognize that in the training experience, But then at the same time, keeping in mind what their own, their own unique context is to be able to say, Oh, OK, so if if I need to be X here, what does why Look like using and integrating that concept to me? That's Ah, that's ah, a bit of a mental agility that we don't often frame it like that and leadership education. But that's really what we're talking about.

spk_1:   11:40
Yeah, yeah, well in. And what else do you think is behind that? 50 cents that we were talking about? That zero. What? What else is going on? If you were to make some assumptions, why aren't our programs having the impact that they potentially could? What do you think?

spk_0:   11:56
Yeah, yeah, when it's one of the things that I've done recently with. This whole pandemic is I've ah, just started to subscribe to the Economist. Okay, So that that publication

spk_1:   12:06
and you're going to go down that road. But I love

spk_0:   12:08
it s so so the the idea behind I never have before because I always thought is about money, right? And I've never been particularly interested in in macro economics or micro economics economics, and I'm learning. It's really just the distribution of scarce resource is in effective and efficient ways, right? And a lot of their articles air about those types of things re. How do you distribute Resource is so why I'm headed down this pathway, right? Like what? But what we're talking about is what are the effective use of resources and leadership education? We're really talking about being ableto help. We need to be able to create communities and stronger ways for these learners to be able to stay engaged in a process of learning to stay agile, right in turning their and their sense of lease on their in their own context after the program, after the formal intervention. After the push of that curriculum happens, we need we developers because I think that is our responsibility to be able to create structured support for these learners to be able to go and and and continue to learn outside of the formality of the program. So, for example, I know you and I have talked a little bit about this is is the importance of coaching and mentorship for these learners. So, like I'm I'm thinking about that. Back when I was 25 I just graduated for a master's degree and in Higher Education Administration. I was a new leadership educator. I thought I knew everything over two decades. I realized how much how much, actually more stupid that I really am. And I say that in the context of I Look back and think I wish I had a more direct ex coaching experience where someone more experienced may someone wiser than me at that point. Time to help point to some of the guide posts of my development so that I could have made deeper meaning of Yes. And And I'm not necessarily thinking that saying that I didn't like I wasn't completely naive. I mean, I had my own experiences. I think it's humans. We all we all learn and grow and develop. But I think the coaching experience as an example is one way that I think we need to be exploring Mawr. If we're really gonna be changing people's minds and increasing people's capacity to lead more effectively.

spk_1:   14:14
Yeah, well, and and we have mental representations of what an ideal leader looks like again in so many of these different realms of training. Let's say I wanted to create a world class chef. I at least have 40 50 different models of what world class can look like, right? Yeah, and and I think I think some of that exists in the lower around leadership. But that's a fascinating that's it's a fascinating gap that we can't show. The men and women were training. Well, here's the ideal. Here's what I deal. Or here's what great great leadership at this level looks like or can look like. Or at least here's one flavor of it. Can you think of anything out there that would, if you were to show someone who had never led? Look, here's the ideal student leader that that what she's doing in this moment right here is awesome. Can you even think of something you would show? Ah, group of students.

spk_0:   15:13
Well, you know, it's interesting the way I interpret what you're talking, because I think you and I are totally on the same page. We need better mental models and better representation of leadership. But the problem that I think that we have probably I actually think we have is we have too many and we're not able to differentiate them.

spk_1:   15:32
Okay? Like I'm saying,

spk_0:   15:34
Yeah. So, like, uh, we have all these books about that are written by many people that we've already heard of. Another contacts, right? There was a famous people that have written books I would encapsulate. The vast majority of those books are as their message is. Look at me, do what I do. And if you do that, you will be more successful in your own life. And we have. We have podcasts. We have webinars, We have seminars. We have conferences. We have workshops. We have retreats. Many of them designed to say, Here are the ways that you need to lead. The problem, though, is I think we don't differentiate or systemic ties those representations in a way that helps our own in our our own mental model. But stick them in the right spots. So, like I hear about, like everything, I'm filtering everything that I'm learning these days to the filter of the pandemic. Right?

spk_1:   16:23
I love it. I love

spk_0:   16:24
you. So there's this underlying conversation that I think a lot of people are having right now about our national leaders are political leaders are health leaders, are international leaders are local leaders about how to do leadership in this time of pandemic? What? One of the hopes that I have and I'm not I don't actually have data on whether this is gonna happen, but I still have a hope. Is that as we're talking about these mental mental models and mental representations, can we do a better job? Given the opportunities that this adapt, active pandemic experience has has given us, we do a better job of systemic ties ing the types of leaders that that we can represent in our own contacts that to be able to practice that better, attaching no value Teoh people's effectiveness. But can we learn about Dr Fauci in the way that he leads and why that leads him to be successful in this situation? And then how that goes about helping any learner become better as a leader in their own contacts? Can we learn from I don't know, Andrew Cuomo and the as the governor of New York and not that these are paragons and idealistic situation people that never screw up cause they're screwing up every day shop. But but can we use these more? Can we use them or intentionally as learning experiences like I'm thinking about World War two, a za comparison right? Like another globally adaptive time. There are so many different books and things that were written about Churchill that were written about Wilson that were written about Roosevelt that were written about me Pick. Pick your people, sure, but they're they're often the same. It's the same problem that I was talking about before. There's no bridge to say given this situation. Here are some takeaways that you can make in your own context. World War two is a very different context than running a nonprofit. Adapting to a global pandemic is very different than advising a student organization, but there are similarities right there, clearly differences. But there are also similarities to

spk_1:   18:23
yes, well, it's been interesting because I am in Ohio and our governor, Mike DeWine, has gotten even the attention of the BBC. He and our leader of the Ohio Department of Health, Amy Act in Dr Amy Act in. They have from both sides of the aisle been getting a lot of praise for their approach to the situation. And for many, at least in Ohio, they've become a symbol of steady fact based. Stay ahead of the curve. Flatten the curve. And it was interesting because the other day, Dave I was talking about emotionally intelligent leadership with my students, and we're talking about three capacities in particular, so coaching others inspiring others and an empathy. So I I asked the students to just go look at the tweets of DeWine and acting, and it's fascinating how they map on to some of these different dimensions. And of course, we could map it onto any number of dimensions or different theories of leadership. But But it was this nice example for the students. They could say, Oh, wow, she's That's what she's doing right here. And they're blending a number of different styles in a very, very beautiful way. They're saying they're coaching and making it very simple. Is that what we need to dio? They're empathizing and doing the best they can to help address the needs and then Dr Act in Specifically, or Mike DeWine specifically will go into kind of an inspirational place off. When we get beyond this, I'm gonna be so proud of what we have accomplished together. So it's been this interesting. So I love what you're saying and how you're thinking. Because it's been this really interesting. In fact, I have a little article for LinkedIn that Marcie Shankman and I are working on right now about this, and it's been a nice It's been a nice case study of at least some of what we've written about in some people. Whether it's intentional or not, I don't know, but they're modeling it in a very, very nice way.

spk_0:   20:22
Totally. Yeah, One of ah, all of these in the pandemic is just a great example. All all of these these singular situations provide such awesome case studies for really exemplifying in a really durable concrete way, with works, right? Like we're talking about success stories, right in a in the some extent, with what doesn't work too right? Like we have now some pretty clear examples of some in behind site mistakes, right? I think the danger to the extent that it is dangerous. I grew up in New York And on September 11th 2001 I was I was living in New York. Big Deal that day, and I remember as a leadership studies guy, right? How much was dedicated to analyzing Rudy Giuliani's responses as exactly has the mayor of New York on how much praise that he he had So much so that I mean it catapulted him into, ah, presidential election cycle? Not not too much, not too much after that. What people often forget about Giuliani is that he had a mojito approval rating in New York City in the single digits. Before that, he had at that point time he'd already been elected out. Bloomberg with was already elected in. He was the mayoral act at that time.

spk_1:   21:33
I don't remember that.

spk_0:   21:34
Yeah, yeah, because he was so one because Giuliani was so unpopular. And I'm intentionally trying to contrast y and right in the way we talk about because I think we rightly do talk about all of the proactive, strong leadership decisions he's making and Giuliani as being relatively similar in these situations in that these air, these are relatively unique circumstances and and that's that goes back to some of the things that I'm talking about before about that leadership is hard and we have these. We have these teaching points. We have these cases. We have examples. We have curriculum, the sort of highlight what we want people to do in their own unique context. But that I think that also it just goes, should to show how hard it is to help people make meaning in their own specific circumstances. Like Well, like we see Giuliani now. He's talking about very differently in the political world now, when he was 20 years ago, because his context has changed. Yeah, but But some might argue that his behaviors had Yeah, it's just that they look a lot different in a different context. Uh, and I think it just highlights how difficult it is to teach people have had the lead in are constantly changing society

spk_1:   22:40
well, and I wonder it would be fascinating to do some research and maybe maybe we will explore this, who knows? But it would be interesting to know if, for instance, DeWine has tapped into a way of being that has just been him, regardless of context,

spk_0:   22:57
totally yet

spk_1:   22:58
lower, or if this moment has called him to be a certain way, and behind the scenes that might be something different. And we see just of public face of this of the gentleman. And maybe it's very, very different behind the scenes, right? But it would be interesting if there's some core principles that have helped guide him through this. And even when times air okay, that guide him through his decision making because they're on display right now and again across the Isles. He's getting a fair amount of praise, and and it's like I said, provided a nice example for some of the concepts that we're discussing in class. So I have to do one more time. Where else is the 50 cents? What else do you think is going on?

spk_0:   23:44
Yeah, the your 50 cents. Meaning like, What's the worthwhile 50 cents that we're spending?

spk_1:   23:49
CSO. So what else do? What else do you think we're missing the boat? Potentially.

spk_0:   23:55
So I talked about coaching right and ministering and being able to make it. All of it is in service of meaning, making right. So some of the other ideas and some of the other thoughts that I have the there in the same service of meaning making Can we help individual learners make meaning of their new X new new capacity, new knowledge to then translate to their own unique contacts? Another idea that I think is I'm I don't have a whole lot of hard data on, but you and I might be writing about it in the future suit communities of practice around around leadership education. So, like I'm thinking about So I'm University of Illinois. I'm in the College of Aces, which is agricultural, consumer and environmental sciences College. So I I hang out with the animal sciences faculty. The natural resource is faculty the the folks that are learning how to grow corn better, you know, which, which is an interesting place for me to be as a leadership educator, but But the I bring that up because the it's a land grant school. So I mean established by the state of Illinois, the help educated populace to to be ready for whatever comes next, right? And we've been

spk_1:   24:58
doing

spk_0:   24:59
that in every state in the union for the past 150 years. Agricultural colleges at land grant schools have for more than two decades now has they've done, ah year long leadership development program for faculty to learn how to become administrative leaders in these at colleges to to be able Teoh, make it active decisions, lead their people well, be ready for changing circumstances because faculty, that's like the anti leadership job in a lot

spk_1:   25:25
of different

spk_0:   25:26
ways. The faculty, especially at research schools and you and you know this to have the ability to kind of burrow into their own space and not have to worry about the outside world is much leading in that world. Looks very different than it is just simply being in that world. I bring that up to say I I was part of this this year long leadership training and development program for rising faculty leaders in these agricultural colleges couple years ago. And one of the things that struck me that is different than most of my other experiences was the tremendous amount of effort that they put and to trying to keep people connected throughout, and then even after the year is over, with the idea being that everybody's context is different. But if I can call my new colleague and friend who has the same curricular experiences I have had and say, Hey, what do you think about this? What do you think I should do in this situation? We can have that we have the common curricular experience to be able to help me as the learner make meaning of my experience in my own unique context. Given that common curriculum. So it's a community of practice, right way stay connected. I think that's another avenue that high red leadership programs have not been very good at. I prop private organizations, corporate organizations, business organizations that have intact populations that don't changes much. Ah, it's high red environments. Do a better job of that that then then we do in higher ed. But I think we need to get. Everybody needs to get better at that, especially the these college educators like me.

spk_1:   26:49
But and I did some work with the Cleveland Clinic and and they when we did some research on this and actually interviewed that, actually they were the program architects of a similar experience. But it was for clinic physicians, administrators and caregivers. And consistently the feedback about why this is such a powerful experience wasn't that we learned you know, the change curve, right? It was the relationships I've built and the connections that I have across this institution now, and the common shared experience that we we had with one another and that camaraderie, right? So I think what you're saying resonates for me at least.

spk_0:   27:30
Yeah, like the leadership experience. I've you as one of the best in the country for higher at his leader shape. And I know you know a little bit about leader shape.

spk_1:   27:37
We

spk_0:   27:38
also it does similar things. It provides a transformative learning experience that combines curriculum and an emotional connection to the community of learners at in real time and then still goes about trying to keep people connected afterwards. Even though students might come from all over the place, they're put in small groups with coaches. And those coaches are often campus based, so that that the relationships are can remain intact afterwards to allow people to continue to go back and learn and grow as the remembering the emotional experiences there, remembering the curriculum all again and service of making meaning in their own unique contexts.

spk_1:   28:12
Yeah, well, you know, Dave were a little bit close on time here, So I'm gonna I'm gonna shift gears. But I really appreciate the conversation about why it is that that were struggling to make a difference. And I think that's a that's a puzzle. That is a beautiful puzzle. Yeah, obviously each one of us are are in this gig because we want to make that make a difference. And we want people to be better prepared to lead others, whether it's formally or informally and to your point. It's hard. It's incredibly difficult. So in this, in this two decades of experience that you've had, what what wisdom can you share with the audience? What? What are you thinking about right now? What do you know, quote unquote or what do you think? You know when it comes this topic of developing leaders?

spk_0:   29:02
Sure, Yeah. Maybe the main point in all of this is that you cannot separate the curriculum from the person, not theirs. There's no way that leadership trainers, the leadership, educators, developers, the secret is not in the curriculum. I actually think that we're beginning to find some consensus around what it is that we're trying to teach, right, like especially new people, the leadership they here all the time, and they begin to repeat. We have 1000 definitions of leadership, right? Like what? You're definition. I actually hate that question almost as much as I hate the question. Was Hitler a good leader? I hate that question, too, but the idea behind that is that it's not the curriculum. That's the secret. It's not the curriculum that we need to make changes to its the way that we make connections to the people, right? Like it's all in service of making meaning on. If we flipped right, let's pretend the situation where you're you're the developer and I'm just on the learner that the student in this situation, your ability to help me make connections to the curriculum is the key in all of this. And that means more than read my book digest. My slides memorized my concepts. It's more than that. It's about being able to help connect with me and help me understand how I need to go about doing that. I mean that that's a pretty self centered way of doing it. But from a leader, from from a learner perspective, it has to be self centric. That's the That's the idea. So what do I know over over a couple decades of doing this? Yeah, it's It's not my ability toe create the best curriculum. It's my ability to be able to create connections with the people that are a part of my curriculum. That's really gonna make a difference

spk_1:   30:34
and talk about creating those connections.

spk_0:   30:37
How do I go about doing that?

spk_1:   30:38
Yeah, talk about that

spk_0:   30:40
It. So I'm thinking about the context of what we're talking about right now. If you're the teacher and I'm the letter, what we're doing right now, you're you're providing some awesome ideas to think about, and you're as many that you're saying is many things that end in question marks as in in periods. And I I think his developers, we need to do the same thing. It's the times that I have sometimes struggled with us. An educator. It's one of struggle with my own confidence, and I sit in front of whoever my learners are, and I focus on one my teaching. What am I getting out? What are the what are the structure of my power point slides and my being as eloquent as I can? It's a cleaning this thing. And I think those things are important, but they're not nearly as important as asking your group of 10 people in the learning space. So we just talked about this. What does it mean for you? What would you do in this situation and then and then walking through a little discomfort of the people who are like, Should I talk? Is he actually asking me? Is he really expecting me toe to say something? But then creating that space in that environment of a community of practice? Let's we're all in this together. Let's figure out how to do it. That's how leadership education happens. It doesn't happen in ah ah, you need direction.

spk_1:   31:46
Mm. I love it. I love it. Any other thoughts come to mind?

spk_0:   31:51
Yeah, A zit relates to some of the other things that we're talking about context, free curriculum with context, rich discussions. So, like, as we're talking about using an example that we already mentioned right? Like if if you're talking about inspiration and how emotionally intelligent leaders work to inspire people right, that that's a context free concept, right? When is that not gonna be matter? When is that not gonna matter, right? Like in today's society that matters almost everywhere, right? But then we explain it. But then, in the discussion in this community of practice in this coaching relationship, they need to be context rich. So we're talking about DeWine, right? How does how does inspiring people look when you're the governor of Ohio and in the midst of a global pandemic? Awesome, rich, colorful example. Now let's also talk about it in your own contact. So let's say I'm talking to a junior who is the incoming president of their sorority. How does inspiring people look like in that situation? Given what we know from the given what we know about the concept and given what we know about the context of the wine, how is that gonna look similar in your situation and leading your shorty? And how is that gonna look different? What do you need to dio to be successful in that circumstance? That that's that's the transformation in the learning experience.

spk_1:   33:04
When I think of that, that's a missing piece for a lot of. I love what you're saying because I think it's missing from a lot of our developmental opportunities, is saying, How does this concept apply to you now? Right? I taught I taught a leadership course in a high school once, and I actually used the same curriculum as my graduate course. I just simply switch to the context because many of them were athletes. So they were in student groups. So they thought about their families. And in the in that context, that's where a lot of the connections were made versus your internship and athletics in the fraternity or Greek life at the collegiate level. Same content. Works with middle managers. Totally right.

spk_0:   33:49
Ovary, You're you're reminding me. At Illinois we've created a like a couple that we call them Intro classes. These air in the bay, the basics of leadership. We have one for grad students, and we have one for freshman. Yes, it's the same e.

spk_1:   34:05
I won't tell anyone, Dave. No,

spk_0:   34:07
but the the super interesting thing happened is when we went to the courses in Curriculum Committee on campus. And there they're literally they have these two Cilla by right next to each other. Like, how are you giving graduate credit for the same class? And it was We're not We're not prepared to have those conversations, right? Like that's Ah, I wasn't prepared for how difficult that was, and they weren't prepared. The hearer that how I was trying to explain what those differences are. The concepts are not They're not rocket science, right? I I I use this example with students a lot. Like I I have, ah, easier time literally teaching leadership to rocket science students because we have we have aerospace engineers at the University of Illinois, then two people in the student government. Because when you go in the aeronautics engineer, aerospace engineer classes, they come the ready, the right notes, they're ready to learn. They know they don't know. Yes, right. Where is the student government folks? And I'm not trying to stereotype too far, but they're like, I got this. I'm already elected, right? Right. So

spk_1:   35:07
I'm there.

spk_0:   35:08
But but the same concepts, the same concepts are relevant in those situations, and they're they're not. They're not super deep. It's the context of how they get practiced. That's the complexity.

spk_1:   35:18
Yeah, and helping people remember that while they're leading or while they're practicing. So, Sam, president of S u PB the student union programming board helping them remember that. Oh, this is an opportunity where I could be inspiring. Oh, this is an opportunity where I should probably empathize up. You know what? I should probably coach the younger members so that they have an awareness of and build the bench strength right of exact follow.

spk_0:   35:45
Exactly. And that's expertise, right? That's being able to in real time, make a good decision. That's likely to be effective.

spk_1:   35:52
Yeah. Yeah. Love it. Love it. Okay, Dave, we're gonna close out with the what I call the speed round these air. Just a couple questions for you. I don't think what did these were coming, either. You. What

spk_0:   36:06
do you

spk_1:   36:06
streaming right now? Is there anything that you have been watching that that you want listeners to be aware of? Or maybe it's a show that makes you think about leadership. Oh, are a series of shows. The last thing I watched was the Tiger King. So that's a great bad leadership. Maybe Right.

spk_0:   36:21
We could,

spk_1:   36:22
you know, lay that on to Barbara Kellerman's bad leadership.

spk_0:   36:25
You're right. Right? Right. It s so, uh, lightning round. Right? So it so quickly. I don't watch very much TV. Actually, the but the ones

spk_1:   36:33
writing papers.

spk_0:   36:36
What? The one show I've been watching with my kids, Right? Cause we're home all time. Lego Masters, the Lego Master show that's hosted by Bill Arnett, Right? Like Lego Batman, Right? And it is

spk_1:   36:46
They build

spk_0:   36:47
things. Yes, the whole It's an elimination show, right? It's like any type of reality show where people get shocked at the end there in pairs, Right? So you see these relationships in real time happen. It's great for leadership. I mean, it's awesome for if you're a 10 year old. But if somebody like me Lego Master is is that it's the thing,

spk_1:   37:02
I'm gonna check that out and you know so along those that you just made me think of. Have you ever watched some eso? Mm, no. Okay, so watch some and then think about leadership education. OK, it's fascinating. It's I believe it's on Netflix. I think there's three different versions of it now. You know there's some 12 and three watch thes air. These airmen and women training to achieve a certain certification is ah, someone some money, eh? Which is increasing.

spk_0:   37:31
Yeah, OK,

spk_1:   37:32
it's fascinating to take a look. Check

spk_0:   37:35
it out. Yes. You were describing it. I was like, I didn't even know what some was, but yeah, yeah, I got it. All right.

spk_1:   37:40
Spelled s O M. M is the That is the the film. So any favorite podcasts that you're listening to

spk_0:   37:47
simply of the shows? I don't I don't do a whole lot of podcast.

spk_1:   37:51
The one that's kind of guests on them. I

spk_0:   37:53
think this one, right that will be

spk_1:   37:56
a guest on podcast really was

spk_0:   37:59
Genisys. It's the only one that I dio. It really fills every home, the one the only one that I even have significant experience in. And I like it. I just think of a lot of time for his revisionist history.

spk_1:   38:11
No, no, no, it's

spk_0:   38:12
yes. He takes an unexamined historical element and spends a lot of time talking about it and to make I think some really interesting connections to the way the world works.

spk_1:   38:24
Nice, Nice revisionist history. History. Okay, great best book you've read lately. It could be this in the last few years. Or maybe you listen to it, but something that just stood out to you as oh wow, this is really changing. And shifting? How? I think

spk_0:   38:41
so. Ah, Global pandemic, right? About half the world's population is at home. I've started re reading some Neal Stephenson fiction. So Neal Stephenson, fiction fiction author. I

spk_1:   38:53
don't know him.

spk_0:   38:54
Yeah, he's read about 10 books. Each of the books are like, I know how well you can see on the camera. Sick? Yeah, yeah. So he's you would You would describe him as a science fiction writer, but there's not a whole lot of science fiction and what he writes about, but he it's a science e type of ah type of fiction. The particular book I'm reading right now is called an FM. Okay? And it what really does it for me is that there's a lot of philosophy of consciousness in it. Oh, what does it mean to be conscious? And how do we actually we're talking about now? How do we actually make meaning about our experiences to learn from them?

spk_1:   39:28
Wow. Well, speaking of that, this is the last question the lightning round. So what are you working on right now? From a personal development personal growth perspective. As leadership educators, we are constantly working to model all of this So So what is your edge right now? What are you working on?

spk_0:   39:46
Good question. Little s o. Slightly depressing story. I have feel bad that this might be the last one. Uh, so I'm, ah, this this semester, I think I mentioned, um, I'm on a sabbatical. I'm writing, interestingly enough, a book on leadership research methods. I was supposed to be spending much of that semester in Italy

spk_1:   40:03
and then

spk_0:   40:04
has not happened for obvious reasons. And the thing that I was working on for a long time, I took Italian lessons I wanted to be. So I take students every other year to Italy to study Ah, leadership. And I wanted to increase my Italian lessons. I got so depressed, actually stopped. But I will. I will. My commitment to myself is to re up that once. Ah, global transportation happens again so that when I take students again, I will be that much more competent and being able to speak the native language in the area where I'm talking about all the great things that we can study related to leadership.

spk_1:   40:37
Oh, that is awesome. I love it. I love it. So where can people find your work. Where can we point folks to review or see some of the work that you've done? And now I'll actually post some of these in the show notes. So how can people find you?

spk_0:   40:55
That's awesome. Thanks for doing that. It's a great question, Scott. I'm not nearly as good as Aziz ur at being able to create packages for people who are not geeky faculty like myself. So literally. The first thing that I thought of it were you asked his Google scholar. You go to Google Scholars, right? Thank you. My name. Okay,

spk_1:   41:15
that's what I will do

spk_0:   41:16
that you'll be able to read some, some really stuffy academic writing about all the research things and I'm finding. So as I'm thinking a little bit deeper, though, this is the way leadership really happens. There are a few other leadership faculty on my team here at the University of Illinois was very shortly. We will be banding together to create a shared website that talks about all the different things that we're learning. That will be the Illinois leader lab dot What is it dot net? Okay, so if you literally Google that within a week it probably won't be up, but by the summer Illinois leader lab dot net will be, ah, website that has all of my research and some of the things that doing encapsulate herbal format. You wouldn't have to read a 20 page academic paper to go through some of that stuff, but that's what I'm working on.

spk_1:   42:02
Awesome. Awesome. Well, and good luck with the book. How much further do you have?

spk_0:   42:08
Yes, so I feel like a

spk_1:   42:09
venture man.

spk_0:   42:10
Well, I feel like so if if I could in the wall behind me, there would be like one of those big thermometers with the rising Mercury. As I get closer and closer to the end of the book, I'm about 80% of the way through a rough draft, and they never it added, delusional. The polishing and citations and proof reading and all that. Ah, but you have making progress.

spk_1:   42:29
Good, good. Well, you know, I started off with three words. Laugh. We've left prolific, prolific. You have prolific my friend, and I think you've displayed your curiosity in a very, very beautiful way. And I Dave, I just can't thank you enough for being here with us. today.

spk_0:   42:47
Well, I'm glad to be here. Thank you for having me and for their continued interactions.

spk_1:   42:51
So after each episode, I like to take some time and just reflect, and I've done that for a couple days now, and the conversation with Dave was just a lot of fun. But what's the practical wisdom that we can glean from this conversation? So if you're an aspiring leader, a couple things come to mind. How does everything you're learning apply to you and your experiences? And number two, the notion of psychological agility? Are you making connections, creating connections across multiple contexts in real time and then practicing, making those connections and reflecting on how the concepts that you're learning apply at your job? We're in your family and, third, who's your coach? It's wonderful that you've had a number of wonderful learning experiences, but who is that common denominator? Who's that individual? That is a thread through all of your learning. Who is that person that's there with you to help you develop and grow? Now, if you're a leadership educator, a program architect, a couple of really important things come to mind as well. So Dave said something That was kind of worrisome, he said. I fear that we're not doing anything that matters. So my question for you is, how do you know that what you're doing matters? Are you measuring? And are you performing longitudinal research on your programming? And does your programming help participants make meaning of what's being learned in their own context? Are you helping them make those connections? And what

spk_0:   44:31
are the

spk_1:   44:32
effective use of resource is and leadership education? Dave said that we need to create communities in stronger ways for learners to be able to stay engaged in the process of learning to stay agile in their context after the program after the formal intervention. This was a common theme throughout our conversation. So structured support for learners to continue the learning outside of the formal learning experience is critical. And now here's my big question that I'm gonna continue to ponder don't have an answer here, but I think it's a fascinating puzzle. What are the habits of mind that we need to develop that could help learners succeed across contexts? Regardless, is that meta cognition or their ability to think about their thinking? Is that just a habit of reflection. What are those habits of mind that could help develop others? You have been listening to the practical wisdom for leaders podcast. If you liked what you heard, please share it with others and let him know it were up to and one last quick reminder to click. Subscribe. So you know when we publish new episodes. And, of course, we'd love to hear your feedback. You can stay in touch with me by visiting www dot scott j allen dot net or any number of social media platforms. Be well, be safe and make a difference wherever you are on this beautiful planet. And now here's Cates, twin sister Emily with the Outro.

spk_0:   46:12
Even the same two from nieces. Practical Wisdom with Scott Allen.