Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.
Scott Allen 0:00
Okay, everybody, welcome to the Phronesis podcast. Thank you so much for checking in. Today, I have Angelica Larios. And, she is a business and project manager with more than 20 years of experience in implementing software projects related to business intelligence, planning, and consolidation of financial solutions based on software applications to support the business decision process. She is the founder and CEO of Alacontec, an IT company founded in Latin America. She has held several professional positions in private and public organizations such as the health ministry in Mexico as IT director, and as a business manager for several firms in Mexico. She holds a master's degree in Business Administration and a bachelor's degree in Computer Science from National University of Mexico in addition to her studies in Project Management, and her Project Management Professional certification, which have helped her to consolidate her career, and have a better understanding on what business and project needs nowadays. She was the first female president of the PMI, Mexico chapter, that's the Project Management Institute. And, she has her doctorate in Strategic Leadership from Regent University. And currently serves on the Ethics Member Advisory group that supports the PMI global operations. And, she has held a number of other global volunteer positions. She is the author of several published articles related to leadership and project management, including outlets like PM World Journal. Angelica has been elected as a member of the Board of Directors for the International Leadership Association, and she's the author of The Female Transformational Leadership A Pygmalion Effect. Wow. Okay. Now, what else do people need to know about you? We are speaking; you're in Mexico City, I'm in Cleveland, Ohio, we're in North America. But what else do people need to know about you, Angelica?
Angelica Larios 1:53
Thank you, Scott. Well, I'm a very active and tranquil person. I cannot stay quiet, and still, so I really like to be involved in several activities, as you can tell. I'm currently part of research members that started from ILA. So, we are researching women and social entrepreneurship. We already published an article, Woman Social Entrepreneurs, a concept on model based on collaborative and authentic leadership styles, in the Journal of Entrepreneurship And Organizations. That was the result of a colloquium that ILA made a couple of years ago. I believe my team and I weren't the only survivors of that research. So, we finally published this year, and I'm very, very proud of that. So, I'm trying to balance myself between my entrepreneurship activity because, as you mentioned in your introduction, I am the CEO and owner of a consulting company, where I mainly run projects in Mexico and some other countries in Central America. And, on the other hand, I volunteer, as you mentioned, for PMI and ILA being a member of the board. And, in my free time, I like to write, read, and research. Very funny.
Scott Allen 3:12
(Laughs) That’s great. Okay. I'm excited because I don't even know that the words ‘Pygmalion effect’ have been used on this podcast yet. But it's a fascinating topic and I think that's where we're going to take the conversation today. So, maybe bring listeners into what is the Pygmalion effect. And what's your area of passion therein? I'm excited to hear this.
Angelica Larios 3:34
Thank you. Thank you. Well, yes, I'm glad to hear that is kind of new in your podcast. It’s a very passionate aspect, I believe it’s more related to psychological field, however. And your audience might know that leadership is based on a lot of interdisciplinary fields. So, the Pygmalion effect is known as the influence a person can exert on others based on the image that has of that person. So, the beliefs about that person can affect the performance of the second person. Let’s say that's the definition. Where does the Pygmalion effect come from? From Greek mythology. There was a king of Cyprus who found difficulties falling in love with the ideal woman because he couldn't find the perfect person. And he used to have a sculptor whose name was Pygmalion. So, he decided to make a sculptor perfectly lady beautiful, has everything, all the characteristics he needed, named Galatea. So, when the king saw this statue, he fell in love immediately and he started to wish truly in his heart that this statue become real, become a real woman. So, the myth says that when you totally believe in something, it becomes real. So, this is the origin of these aspects; another familiar example that probably the audience will relate to is the story of a book very famous by George Bernard Shaw. It’s a similar story about Eliza Doolittle, who is a lady who becomes an upper-class lady graced to sponsorship and believes that there's a Professor in her, so she becomes a fabulous lady. So, I'm talking about this in my book, as you mentioned, because, according to my experience, and probably, this is very subjective, if you want, but I've seen a lot of people in Mexico, in Latin countries where I have a lot of interaction, sometimes in the USA as well, that women don't believe in themself enough to achieve more or apply for other positions, other responsibilities. And I am relating these aspects to the book The Transformational Leadership because I’ve read I have researched that transformational leadership is natural to women. We, by nature, transform others. So, if we believe in others, and we believe in ourselves enough, we can accomplish more. So, this is what I'm talking about in my book.
Scott Allen 6:30
Well, okay. So, there's a lot there, which is great. So, the Pygmalion effect is, if I believe that you believe in me, that you think that I can accomplish great things, that if you see good in me, then I am more likely to believe that in myself. Is that a simplistic summary of the Pygmalion effect?
Angelica Larios 6:52
Correct. That will improve your self-esteem. And, of course, you will believe and then be sure that you can accomplish whatever you want, your goals. You can see it, as a very familiar example, as we are today celebrating the International Women's Day, everybody can relate to very simple examples: Their family, their mother. When you used to be a kid, your mother would tell you, “I believe in you. Keep on going. You will achieve. You will get great things in life.” Unfortunately, the opposite is also true in this Pygmalion effect, and I recall that you and I've had a conversation about this before. The opposite also gets into the mainframe because when I don't believe in others, my attitudes change toward them. So, if I don't believe in a friend, co-worker, or employee and start telling negative things, or I start expecting negative things from them, they will start doubting themselves. Having this hesitation of doing these things. So, it works both ways. So, it is also when you believe in others and believe enough, and you send a positive message and this person starts achieving. It's a cycle. It's a beautiful cycle.
Scott Allen 8:11
Yes. And so, let's go a little bit deeper on women and the Pygmalion effect. I think you said something pretty powerful a few moments ago, but can we go there, if you would? How do you think about this with, specifically, women in organizational life or women in leadership?
Angelica Larios 8:31
Correct. Well, as I mentioned, I believe women naturally have transformational leadership, and this is why we have to develop that leadership. And we have to take the steps necessary to have more responsibility to search for other opportunities, but also to have the support that all women will need from each other. And in my research, and also in my book, I include 15 cases because I'm a very practical person, I like to think about real people, right?
Scott Allen 9:06
Yes.
Angelica Larios 9:07
So, I interviewed 15 people for flesh and blood, and we can all relate to them. And then a very important message is there, for example, it’s included there the first CEO in Nisa, about a woman in Nisa, this lady was a Mexican. She was the first one who held a position like that. And she relates in her story someone invited her to be part of a bar; she didn't even know what a [Inaudible 9:40] was. But then she said, “Yes, you know what? Yes, I can.” So she has this type of thinking that if somebody else can, I do, and I will. And she believed that she could achieve more and more, and she started doing it, and she was very successful. So the thing is, I believe women are very capable as well as men. We are equal in terms of capacities, abilities, you name it. The thing is that we need to start doing the things that things that’s necessary, believe in ourselves, and support each other. So, we need to create programs that are incorporated into organizations. It's not only the policy that we have to accomplish X number of women and men but also the opportunity to break the glass ceiling and support women at the top. And also, instead of responsibility for women that have achieved the highest level, let's say in an organization, in whatever, to open the path for other women to come.
Scott Allen 10:44
Yes. As I understand it, its high expectations lead to improved performance. And especially if I'm modeling having achieved, and now I am kind of placing those high expectations in the belief that others can meet those expectations. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I also think of this, at least, a cousin of this concept: am I acknowledging when people have met those higher expectations? It's more likely that they're going to work at that level again, especially if I'm acknowledging it. Even in my daughter, for instance, if I am saying to her, “Wow, I'm so proud of you for working hard, like we discussed. I see it, you're doing it,” she's more likely to engage in that behavior moving forward, than not.
Angelica Larios 11:33
Yeah, that's right. You get it. You totally get it. And this is also true, it's also been proved the Pygmalion effect in academia, in scholars, and also students and professors. Where the professor has a high level of expectation of any student, it’s more likely that this student will achieve more than when the professor has low expectations for a student, and the student will not improve and doesn't see it. So, that’s what happens with your daughter. That happens in the schools. That happens in academia. It also happens in real life, in corporate, and in business. So, we have to give ourselves the chance to make things happen.
Scott Allen 12:14
Tell me a couple of more case studies that stood out for you based on your research. What were some other stories that you'd like to highlight or listeners might be interested in? What else comes to mind?
Angelica Larios 12:27
As I mentioned, I included different types of women's personalities. Some of them are known very well in the United States, some of them are known in Latin America, and some of them are not known enough. So, for example, I included my brother Santos. He is the CEO of Oracle, Mexico. Oracle is a big company/technological company.
Scott Allen 12:51
Incredible.
Angelica Larios 12:52
Which company is a partner of them? Somebody [Inaudible 12:56] a woman who was born in Venezuela, but she developed a career in Mexico. So, she says things like that, the first thing is that you have to trust in yourself. We already discussed that. I trust that you can really handle the responsibility. That you can apply for a position, but many women wait to be seen. In her words, she says that diversity means that you are invited to a party, and inclusion means that you are invited to dance. I’m telling you to stop waiting to be invited to dance. Prepare for when the party is and not be 100% ready, do not wait to be completely prepared. Men jump in and take positions that are not 100% ready. Prepare, jump in, and raise your hand. Get ready for the role and get prepared on the stand when these opportunities are. When the chances are there, take them because you are preparing 100%. That is not your position; this is another. Nobody hires you in your [Inaudible 14:02]. So, I really liked this part because you're hearing the voice of somebody who has really achieved something big. She's the Oracle head in Mexico, Latin America. She has opened a program inside Oracle, at least in Mexico, for women to develop themselves and so on. And she said something very interesting because this is reality, this happens a lot in the field, you can see. Women see a position or job description and wonder about all the aspects they need to have. And they say, “Oh, no. I have only 90% of them. No, no, I have to wait until I'm full. Until I fulfill all that description.” Men are not like that. They say, “Oh, come on, I have 40. Yes, let's go.”
(Laughter)
Scott Allen 14:51
Yes.
Angelica Larios 14:53
When you are already fulfilling all that’s in the job description, you are not there. You've been down to the next step. And women are tied down by themselves or others to just be waiting for. It's not about; you need to be ready and go.
Scott Allen 15:10
Well, it's interesting as you speak… I was reminded of my son and our differences. And, again, this is a sweeping, sweeping generalization, listeners. I know that. It is funny, though, because I'll never forget my son. This was probably five years ago; we were at baseball. And he had had a very, very lackluster game, I think he had may be connected once, he made one play in the field. But then, he struck out three other times and had a few. It wasn't just one or two errors, but it was a few errors. And we're getting into the car, and I said, “So, how's your game?” And he said, “Awesome.”
(Laughter)
Scott Allen 15:40
“Well, I don't know that that was awesome, buddy, but I'm glad you believe.”
Angelica Larios 15:58
Yeah, right.
Scott Allen 16:01
I think that sticks with men sometimes throughout their lives.
Angelica Larios 16:06
Yes, I don't know if it's called to that aspect or not, but this is also true when you're, let's say, older and then go to the seat in the mirror and say, “Oh, boy,” for example, “Oh, look at my gray hair. I'm beautiful. Wow. Handsome. Let’s do it.” A woman is like, “Oh, my God, look at this hair!”
(Laughter)
Angelica Larios 16:30
“I see myself as horrible. Oh, the wrinkles. No, no, no.” So, certainly, I don't know where this is coming from. But somehow, women tend to criticize more and be more critical. We have to do the opposite.
Scott Allen 16:43
When I think, to your point, having those role models and having individuals communicate, not only role modeling, serving in some of those very, very elite positions on the global stage, but then also communicating and modeling for others that you too can achieve what you put your mind to. And having those role models and having those expectations for others and belief in others. Iit’s critical. It just is.
Angelica Larios 17:14
It is. Fortunately, I've seen other new generations coming to work environments. And thank God they have another chip; they are more open to experience. Now, young women generations are fighting for the same rights and positions, which I believe is good. It’s a good thing. So, I wrote this book for whoever wants, of course, to read it and find some value in there. But the highest mission I aspire to achieve is to inspire women, overall, those that are in the middle career in the middle ages, [Inaudible 17:58] to believe in themselves. That read the book and find examples as I'm telling you. A real person that made it. And if they made it, you can also make it whatever is your field, whatever it is that you're doing. You have to believe in yourself and take the necessary steps to achieve the goals that you are planning for yourself.
Scott Allen 18:22
Yes, yes. So, I'm going to switch gears slightly right now. You have this background in project management, and that's another area that we… I don't know if those words have ever been spoken on this podcast [Inaudible 18:37], I'm sure. So, what do you see as opportunities in project management and this topic of leadership in general? Is it something that is sorely needed in that space, the training around leadership and really successfully preparing people to serve, not only in these very, very technical roles of project management but then, “I'm leading a team, and am I doing that side of it effectively as well”? So, could you talk a little bit about that?
Angelica Larios 19:03
Sure. Thank you, Scott, for opening that opportunity also. Well, project management has been around us, I will say, forever because we run projects for everything and everywhere, but we don't realize that we are doing projects, and we don't realize that there's a proper way to run projects. So, according to PMI, what they say is the project manager equals a leader. This is quite interesting because, as a product manager in charge, you need to develop these leadership skills in order to coordinate people and resources, achieve goals, negotiate, communicate, motivate, and inspire because, otherwise, it won't be possible to achieve any objectives or any goals in this specific project. On the other hand, since I've been around for ILA for some years now, I've seen many interesting people focus on teaching, learning, and researching leadership, but I have no clue about what a project is. Do you know what? It’s necessary nowadays. For example, to run a research project, you need to have at least the basic project skills to schedule activities, have a deadline, have specific points to see, schedule a scope, and your time. And I don’t want to go very technical here, but the message here is project management is very needed when you want to do research, when you want to create training, when you want to publish a book, everything is needed. So, as for me, having both areas of expertise and both mindsets, I can see opportunities in both areas where project management is enriched by leadership because a project manager is a leader. And leaders are in need of project management skills in whatever they are doing. I am talking here only about academic researchers. But let's think about running that company and organization and institution, a nonprofit organization. Every single person who is the head of an organization has to have project management skills.
Scott Allen 21:35
Well, I couldn't agree more. And I think, as you were just speaking now, I was reminded, there's a quote, and it was a futurist who said this quote, It was Joel Barker who said this but he said that vision without action is merely a dream. Action without vision just passes the time. Action with vision changes the world. And it should have probably been vision with action changes the world, is how I probably should have just said that. But you get into these conversations sometimes of, “Well, are you a leader, or are you a manager?” Well, you are both, hopefully, because you can sell the vision of where we want to go, but an individual like Steve Jobs, given all of the foibles that he had, which is significant at times, had a vision that vision came to fruition often. And so, it's this unique individual that can really blend both the big thinking and the future orientation with now we are actually going to move towards that and achieve what it is we said we wanted to accomplish. So, this project management side of it, I think, to your point, is so incredibly important because you might be elected president based on your vision, but are people better off four years later? And the same could go for an organization or a nonprofit organization. Do you blend both of those skills really beautifully? And I just think it's so critical. So, I love that you bring that perspective to the table because I think, oftentimes in leadership, we don't talk about this other side enough. Does that make sense?
Angelica Larios 23:14
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. You're right. The Project Management Institute has put a lot of emphasis on searching for ways to offer the level of a project manager inside of each organization. Searching for having, for example, a Chief of Project Management position type of thing, because, as you mentioned, it’s critical. I would say that every organization runs based on projects. Your university, you have to rephrase the program for students, for example, you had to do it with a project. So, projects are essentially everywhere. And yes, now that you mentioned my position, let me tell you, I was the first woman in the local chapter, like 13 years ago, or something like that.
Scott Allen 24:03
You served as the first female.
Angelica Larios 24:07
I was, yes.
Scott Allen 24:08
President of the PMI chapter in Mexico, correct?
Angelica Larios 24:11
Yes. And it was very great for me to celebrate the 15th year of the chapter back then. Now, the chapter is around 26, 27, or something like that. And I'm very glad because they have a local women's community, and sometimes they invite me to talk or discuss something. And nowadays, after me, I opened the bridge for women presidents of the chapter, which was great. And up to date, all other chapters in Mexico, for example, [Inaudible 24:46], have women in the head position. So, I'm very proud, Scott, as we mentioned before, that we have to open the path for others to come. I'm very glad to see that other women are following the steps I just left there. It was not like I opened the path, and nobody came after me. I'm very glad because we have more women getting into president positions. And it was not easy. Nowadays, it’s not easy because, let's say there are discrimination, restrictions, ideas, biases of what a woman can do or cannot do, imagine 13 years ago. So, I have to apply my leadership skills, I did mention it, to negotiate with others, to communicate my vision of what I wanted to do back then, what I aspired to for project management at a local chapter to do in the following years. Well, also, it's important to see one of the resilience that you have to have as a leader. But the other one is understanding, and that's a key point here in our discussion: understanding that we are humans. And even when we are trying to achieve great things, we have our goals, and we want to make them, too; there's always room for improvement. And there's always something that you didn't do or just didn't do it correctly. So, sometimes, we are very hard on ourselves for that space. Also, in this transformational leadership, we have discussed that much, but I am based on two models. The model of Kouzes and Posner. You know that book?
Scott Allen 26:35
Yep. Leadership Challenge.
Angelica Larios 26:35
Yep. At the end of their model, the fifth step is celebrating with the heart. Celebration. Sometimes, we are so into corporate thinking and objectives number, whatever, that we forget that we are humans, and we forget this tender nature that women have of being caring, being collaborative, and celebrating. As I was saying, back then, of course, I would love to have achieved more, but I'm very glad to have achieved what I did. My steps are still there so other women can continue my original contribution. And that's why it's important. So we have to celebrate that we'll have a women's community in Mexico for PMI. We need more women in other spaces. We have to celebrate. We have to encourage them. And then, what we're talking about at the beginning, we believe in ourselves, I believe in other women can do it, I support them, and we continue growing.
Scott Allen 27:39
Yep. That's wonderful. That's wonderful. Well, as we begin to wind down our time today, is there anything else from the book or from the PMI space that you want to highlight that stands out for you?
Angelica Larios 27:54
That’s a good question. It's a very good question. Let me tell you something else about my book and the topic that we are discussing about women. When I was preparing the book, I was doing some research about the status of women in the work field, work and environment. So, I present some very interesting data graphics from the International Labor Organization, where we are still fighting for equity. And what I mean by equity is not only having the same numbers of employees for each gender but also, I'm talking about being paid equally and having equal opportunities. And sadly, as you can see, in many of the graphics I prepare, and I presented this book, is there’s still very discrepancies in the position of women. Women tend to occupy administrative roles and middle management roles, and still, from Mexico up to Argentina, in Latin America, we have, for the same work done, men get more pay than women. So, in the data for today, for women, I don't know when this podcast will be listening, but I truly believe that it's important they know that we are recording this today because it's a highlight. We need to commemorate the fighting for this woman in New York, where labor conditions were not good enough for them, and they had to start fighting years ago for similar rights. And we are still fighting for that position, although most of the countries can vote, now we achieved that right, but we are still fighting for pregnancy, or abortion, or other women's rights. And in the economic field, we're still fighting to be paid equally for the same job description as men. So, it's also interesting to see this type of graphics I'm including here, I'm talking also a little bit about enterpreneurship, which is another area where women try to find a place for them. Myself example, I decided to stop searching for jobs, and I started my own company. And with that, it has a lot of risk, as well as satisfaction. I have faced all types of situations related to what we are talking about here about women and men. Sometimes, my customers don’t like me because I am a woman. Sometimes I have to fight because you have no idea what kind of negative comments and words such as, “What are you doing here? You should be in the kitchen.” Like, “Oh, my God.” Yes. I also have another sad example because I was invited to participate in a negotiation with a company. After being in agreement to have a meeting, we received a call from the Secretary, and she said something like, “Excuse me, I have a question. Is there any woman coming for the meeting?” We said, “Yes, of course we are. Why?” “Because I have a problem here. And the problem is that the men in this company like to talk very rude and use bad words.” “What?” “Well, we really don't want to have any woman in the meeting.” Then I was like, “Really? No, sorry, because I am the head of the organization, and I’m a woman.” And the project manager was gonna be in charge of what you want to do as a project back then was a woman as well. So, after having some discussions internally, we decided that we shouldn't go for that business because it was against the values of my organization, which are having equal opportunities for women and men and not discriminating against anyone for their gender. So, imagine that. And I can tell you several examples. So, I'm talking about entrepreneurship here because, according to statistics, most women, at least in Mexico, initiate a small business because it's the only way they find to calibrate or to balance the personalized being as a mother, taking care of children, taking care of the family, and have some income. Unfortunately, as we are talking about leadership and project management skills, most of these women that started as small initiative and as entrepreneurs, they fail under two years because of the lack of these important skills that we are talking; project management and leadership. So, I invite your audience to… If we want to recap or resume, I will have to invite your audience, especially women, to believe in themselves and prepare themselves for other initiatives in whatever position they are now. Don't be one 100% ready. Don't wait to be invited there, go for it. If you want to be an entrepreneur, prepare yourself. You can do it, but it takes a lot of hard work. Once, for the woman who has already achieved and is in the highest position, help other women. Help others to come. Give opportunities for women and establish programs for women. It is also very important not to forget that work that is done by men and women. And my speech is not hate against men because I am very convinced that without you, we cannot do anything. So it's important to be in partnership with you guys because, sometimes, you guys support us and help us develop our careers and our family lives. So, that's what I'm gonna share, Scott.
Scott Allen 34:10
I love it. I love it. So, I always close out with a conversation about what you've been reading, or streaming, or listening to. What has caught your attention in recent times? It doesn't have to have anything to do with what we've just discussed, but is there a resource that you have found beneficial that listeners might be interested in? Something you've read, or something you've listened to, or something you've been streaming, or just an organization you want them to know about?
Angelica Larios 34:39
Well, as you've mentioned, I believe this is a high topic right now. Everybody's talking about artificial intelligence. This is something that comes up everywhere. Everybody is trying to live in a rush with this new technology. But we have to be very careful because as we actually [Inaudible 35:0] as an opportunity and opens windows, it also comes with the highest risk. And I'm not against technology, as I'm telling you. I've been working on technology for years. And, I think that we have benefitted ourselves in many aspects of technological applications on the internet; we are having this meeting, and this conversation is now based on technology. It’s a good thing, but we will have to be very careful to open artificial intelligence in our fields, not to be afraid of being replaced by it, but to use it in an intelligent way. So, we have to read more, be cautious, be aware that it’s here. How we are gonna make it to use them in our favor. And I'm talking here in our favor as entrepreneurs, leaders, researchers, academics, and so on because everyone is looking now in that direction. So, all the information I'm sharing here, probably, you are gonna… ChatGPT, tell me about it; you're gonna find that there. But humans are still needed. We still need this contact, this experience, and this conversation. How I'm gonna transmit my ideas to you if you're not listening to me? I don’t think artificial intelligence is gonna give you the experience I am sharing with you now or vice versa. So, this is the case I'm searching for, reading, and using.
Scott Allen 36:38
Learning about AI, learning about the future, and thinking about how that intersects with leadership is just absolutely fascinating. A listener, Gary Lloyd, suggested that I read the book The Coming Wave, which was just incredible. And so yes, we are going to hear more and more about artificial intelligence and how it's shifting the landscape, like a lot of other things, but oof, wow, yes. A lot of these disruptive technologies are Blockchain, artificial intelligence, and synthetic biology. It's just a fascinating future that we're moving into. Well, I am so thankful for your time today. I am thankful for the good work that you do in the world. And, Angelica, we’ll do it again.
Angelica Larios 37:26
(Laughs) Thank you. Thank you, Scott. I'm very, very glad to hear this. Thank you for your invitation and for accepting me. Thank you to your audience. Hopefully, you will find something interesting here. If you want to get in touch with me, can I say that?
Scott Allen 37:42
Yes. Oh, yeah, please.
Angelica Larios 37:43
You can find me on different social media. You can find my books on Amazon, Google Play Store, and Apple stores under my name, Angelica Larios. You can also visit my webpage, https://angelicalarios.com/ . Or send me an email at angelica.larios@gmail.com. I will be more than glad to hear what you're thinking about what we can discuss here. Women that are listening, what do you think is [Inaudible 38:12] what I'm saying? Do you see a difference in having an open space for other topics? And as we are almost finishing, Scott, let me tell you that I'm writing, I'm still researching, and I’m preparing something for this year, very soon, about leadership and followership. Well, I haven't told you, but as I have free time, I like to dance. So, I've been dancing Latin dance for the last year with my family, with my son and my husband. And it's been quite amazing and fun. It's been challenging because you have to coordinate many things, but you have no idea how much leadership has to do with dancing. A lot of it.
Scott Allen 38:59
So yes, I don't know if you've read Sharna Fabiano’s book ‘Lead and Follow,’ but she's tango, And it's this beautiful. I'll put all those links in the show notes so that listeners can know how to get in touch with you. Again, thank you so much; it's just been such a pleasure. And I look forward to seeing you in November in Chicago.
Angelica Larios 39:22
I hope so, too.
Scott Allen 39:25
Okay. Well, be well.
Angelica Larios 39:27
Thank you. Thank you, Scott. Until next time.
[End Of Recording]