Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.
Scott Allen 0:00
Okay, everybody, welcome to the Phronesis podcast. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world. Today, I have a friend Brian Fishel, and he has recently retired from KeyBank. I'm going to tell you a little bit about him. Three-plus decades leading CEO and C-suite succession and transitions. Coach and developer of Enterprise Leaders and High Potentials. Strategic advisor to CEOs, C-suite teams, and Board of Directors. Deep expert in designing and delivering leadership programming. And a practitioner and transformational leader. Brian has a storied career, you will learn more about that in his bio which I will place in the show notes. But he has worked at a number of organizations. He has been with Bank of America, Coca-Cola, Pizza Hut, where he started his career. And he is a graduate of Miami University in Ohio, back in the day. And today, our topic is really going to focus on High Potentials. How does a person who's kind of looking up at their career, who's standing at the precipice of where they would like to go, and how does that individual navigate their career? What are some things that they should have on their radar? And so Brian, before we jump into that conversation today, what else should people know about you before we begin?
Brian Fishel 1:23
First of all, thanks for having me today. I really appreciate this and the opportunity to share what I've experienced throughout my career, personally, as well as what I've learned through those experiences. And that's one thing I want people to take away. Life is a constant journey of learning and an application of that learning, and a nice virtuous cycle from there. What do you want to know from me? I am a constant student. I'm continuously learning. I like to read a lot, mostly magazines, news, online, so forth. I’m a family man. I'm a sports fanatic, as you know, Scott. I'm a fitness enthusiast. And I really do get a passion for developing people and helping them achieve their potential. Everybody has the potential, it’s the ability to draw it out of one where I think I have excelled in my career. But more importantly, I've watched others benefit and excel by their own doing of achieving their potential.
Scott Allen 2:20
Well, I am excited because I think you are going to provide a little bit of a roadmap for individuals today, considerations based on your decades of experience looking at talent. You've served as a chief talent officer; this is something that you have studied and that you know. So, I want to begin with just how often a company’s high potential. As you're sitting in those meetings with C-suite executives, how are they thinking about who are those high potentials in the organization?
Brian Fishel 2:55
So, I have been fortunate to sit through probably hundreds of meetings among leadership, senior leadership, and executive leadership at a variety of companies and industries. And, as they talk about talent, whether they're telling their people what they're asking, and talking about, and describing talent in those meetings or not, there really are a few broad categories of questions they're asking. The first and foremost is, does this person have a track record of high-end performance over time and in different situations? And that's critical. If you're not performing at a high level, chances are you're not going to be recognized or given the chance to deliver on the potential that each of us has. So, as they look at people, and they talk about talent, and they calibrate people to people, they're asking questions around performance like, “How has this person performed in their current role over the last 12 to 18 months?” “How has this person performed in previous roles or in challenges in the past?” “How has this person performed under different situations and with different people?” And finally, “When they are put in different situations, does this person succeed? And if they succeed, are they doing it faster and better than their peers?” That's where the calibration comes in. So, first and foremost, are you a proven performer? Do you have a track record of performance? The second thing they're asking and challenging and looking for is whether this individual has the capacity, both mentally and physically, to be stretched, develop, pushed, and grow in their role or into new roles. So, questions like how has this person handled more responsibility in broader authority when given to them, whether that's a new role or just an assignment? How has this person handled and dealt with complexities, challenging issues, or new problems? Has this person demonstrated the ability to get a lot done in a multitask, or do one thing and do it really well? And then, when that's done, they can move on? Leaders want individuals to whom they can give a multiplicity of issues, topics, and problems.
Scott Allen 5:26
We've got an individual here who has a track record of success. They have performed in their current role, in past roles, with different situations and different people. So, there's that track record there of performance, and then they have the mental and physical capacity to be stretched into new roles. And I love those three questions that you just shared: has the person demonstrated the ability to get a lot done well, kind of all at once? Talk about that.
Brian Fishel 5:56
So, as I was kind of outlining a minute ago, or suggesting, individuals who are high potentials, or as leaders assess people's potential, they're looking for people who can multitask, work at different altitudes in a variety of topics, they're not a one-trick pony. They don't always solve every problem through the same lens. And they have the ability to take work off of their boss and give that boss, their boss, the capacity to take on more work themselves. That's a critical component of high potential, is the ability to take on work, to manage their own time and capacity to get that work done well, but doing it while they're doing other work. Does that make sense to you, Scott?
Scott Allen 6:49
Yeah, that's perfect. That's perfect. Okay. So, you said there were a few more dimensions of what it means to be identified as a high potential, what else?
Brian Fishel 6:58
Yeah. So two more; one is, or the third one would be, the individual wants to and has the desire, willingness, drive, and energy to do more things and to take on new tasks and new issues. So, they have the energy, the willingness, and the desire to do more. So, the questions are asked in those calibration and talent meetings, has this person in the past shown initiative? Are they proactive? Do they do more than what's asked of them? Has this person shown an aptitude and desire to lead both work and people, whether they report to them or not?
Scott Allen 7:40
So, let's pause there real quick with work and people. So, it's not just about getting everything done, it's about task and individual, social, emotional intelligence, and working with others as well. Correct?
Brian Fishel 7:53
Absolutely. And we're going to talk a little bit about that whole social-emotional intelligence, EQ, whatever you want to call it in a little bit. But absolutely. So, the last question is willingness to do more category: has this person come to you, their boss, or their manager seeking out new opportunities? Do they volunteer for different assignments, or do they say no? Managers and leaders want people who say yes, and who have the energy, the enthusiasm, and the proaction to come to you and say, “Hey, I see this opportunity. I'm connecting a few dots here with this work, and this other work I'm working on, I think we could do it better and in different ways. I'd like to take that on.” That's the sign of somebody who wants to do more.
Scott Allen 8:43
Okay. So, you got to raise your hand. And when tapped, say yes.
Brian Fishel 8:47
Absolutely. I tell people that work ethic matters, back to this whole work on a lot of work at the same time, and do it really well simultaneously. So, work ethic matters, but also the ability to be proactive and say yes to opportunities. Those are signs of people who want to get better and desire the opportunity to prove themselves. The last element is whether the person is a learner. Are they learning agile? Do they have the disposition for continuous improvement? Do they aspire to get better and learn new skills? So, the questions leaders are asking as they're assessing talent in this category; how has this person learned from errors and mistakes? Do they learn from those errors and mistakes, or do they repeat the same mistakes over and over again? Obviously, leaders want, and managers want, people who learn from mistakes. We're all going to make errors; we're all going to fail at one time or another in our careers. But how you get back on that bicycle after you've fallen is really what differentiates. Does this person engage on a broad set of issues, not just within their functional area of expertise? And then, lastly, good learners, people are active learners, the question is has this person shown improvement? But more importantly, what they're asking is whether this person understands not just what they're delivering but how and why they're delivering it this way. And I think that's a really important fact. And we'll talk about that here shortly in a little more. Understanding and doing what is important, but why and how is even more important.
Scott Allen 10:37
Okay. So, we've got a proven track record of performance in different situations. We have an individual who has the mental and physical capacity to be stretched. They have the energy desire, and willingness to do more. And new things to take on new challenges. And they're a learner, and they learn from their mistakes. But they're also, in some ways, I'm hearing you say, broadening their expertise. If they have a background in, let's say, human resources, do they truly have the financial acumen as well? Or do they have some operations experience? Do they have a broad range of experiences or an interest in learning a broad range of organizational functions? Is that accurate?
Brian Fishel 11:21
That is absolutely accurate. So, there is room for people to be high pros, we call it, highly professional. So, deep experts, but then can they broaden that expertise to also include topics outside their narrow or functional area of experience? And the way people get that is to have a variety of experiences to wrap up their career. So, for example, in my career, yes, while I've been mostly focused on HR and human resources throughout the majority of my career, I've been fortunate to have global positions and domestic positions. I've been able to work on business issues and topics, not just HR topics. I've had financial accountability, large budgets, all those are different experiences in different situations. And, obviously, I've worked for a variety of different industries, which all makes me a more well-rounded individual. And as I think about new problems and new situations, I have a bigger variety and pool of experience from which to pull. That only helps people achieve more of their potential, in my opinion.
Scott Allen 12:36
Awesome. Okay.
Brian Fishel 12:37
So, to summarize of this section, as leadership reviews talent on whatever cycle and looks for who should we stretch, give new assignments, give a new experience to put on a new project or promote, they're really asking which individual is the most capable of taking on more responsibility, broader authority or leadership accountability? Who will have a larger and more strategic impact? Who am I betting on? Who do I have the most confidence in at this moment? Do they have the runway to go up the organizational ladder? Do they have the versatility, as we just talked about, to do and succeed in more areas, whether it's different products, different regions, different businesses, just think diversity in general, and variety. Will they succeed? So, versatility and runway, and capability, those are really what they're asking about and assessing in people's talent.
Scott Allen 13:36
I think, at times, there may be individuals who don't want to raise their hand, who don't want a global role or a position that's abroad, and who don't want to take on more in an organization. They want 100% work-life balance, if that's integration, whatever terminology we want to use. I think that's an option. That's, for sure, a path forward for individuals. The trade-off may be that they will not likely be tapped as one of these high potentials who is going to be on that faster track to a senior-level role. And I think, for me, if that's an intentional decision, then that's an intentional decision that is a personal choice. But for those individuals who want to be tapped and move in that direction, you've given a beautiful roadmap of some of those core elements that need to be present.
Brian Fishel 14:34
I think that's incredibly well said, Scott. So long as you are performing, and delivering, and succeeding in what is given to you, and you're meeting the objectives of your job and the responsibilities you're tasked with, there's room for those individuals in all companies, in my opinion. As you said, those individuals may not be tapped as often or as frequently, but I have a saying that kind of goes both ways in this discussion, which is once a high potential, not always a high potential. Once a top performer, not always a top performer, you have an individual who has to prove themselves year in, year out and take advantage of opportunities. And if you kind of hold back the reins of the willingness to do things outside of your comfort level, for whatever reason, yet you're still performing, that's great. You could get back into that track later on, and vice versa. Just because you have a high potential this year… Sometimes, people get capped out in their career or temporarily because of whatever reasons, and that's okay too.
Scott Allen 15:40
Yes. Okay. So, from an individual differences or individual attributes components of kind of these individuals, what differentiates high potentials from others? What are the attributes of these individuals that really stand out for you?
Brian Fishel 15:55
I think, first and foremost, there's a lot, but if I summarize…
Scott Allen 15:59
Give us a few.
Brian Fishel 16:00
Number one, they have to be critical thinkers. What do I mean by that? These are individuals or individuals who differentiate themselves as high potentials can make connections others don't see. They have a rigor and agility about them, so when they're looking at issues, they're looking at them very holistically. They connect dots of information and observations and then ask the questions: what if or what could be that others don't see or don't ask around? And then, lastly, I just say, and we've talked about this multiple times already, it's a theme you're going to hear probably till the end of this podcast, which is they're voracious learners. These people are differentiating themselves because they're curious. They're inquisitive. They're investigative. They ask the question, “Why?” And maybe not accept the answer the first time. They might ask, “Well, why not?” Or “Why, again?” To further understand and get beneath the surface of issues. So, again, they're critical thinkers that connect dots, they observe, they ask those questions, what if? What could be? why? Why not? And they're highly curious.
Scott Allen 17:13
So, I think, as I'm listening to you, it's some fresh connections and seeing around corners. Some of these things are looked at in ways that others are not. And bringing that critical thinking to the table.
Brian Fishel 17:30
And bring it in an applicable way, not just a theoretical research method. So, you're doing some reading on some trends in another industry, how might those trends come forward here? So, for example, for many years early in my career, I worked at companies where there was a large unionized labor force. And if you look at the United States today, unionization and labor movement are increasing in their impact and influence. And for many, many, many years, banking has never had to deal with that, like some of these manufacturing companies I've worked with or some products companies. I didn't say, “Well, let's just ignore it.” It's, “Okay. What's our plan if? Why might people choose to unionize? What can we provide in terms of employee experience, engagement, etc, today that may minimize that and, by the way, make the whole company better as a result?”
Scott Allen 18:27
Okay. Critical thinkers.
Brian Fishel 18:30
Critical thinkers are critically number one. Secondly, they are change-driven. They can deal with change and ambiguity in-depth and very smoothly if you will. So, people who do not necessarily have high potential really struggle with change. They see the world as black and white and see problems as questions, answers, issues, and resolves. We all know that it's rarely the case of how things happen. So, people are change-driven and deal with change and ambiguity. They're constantly looking to improve things themselves, others, and the work around them. They like to tinker, experiment, test, innovate, while, at times, these are the people you go, how they really like to challenge the status quo. And by the way, challenging the status quo in a productive effective manner is really beneficial to push companies and teams and leaders decisions along the way. The second thing people who are change-driven are able to do is make decisions and actually take action when not all the facts or details are fully laid out and defined yet. They’re comfortable dealing in the gray. And actually, one of the learnings that I've had over the last five years, in particular in my role as Chief Human Resource Officer, but during the time we've faced over the last five years from COVID, to social injustice, to the financial crisis, and all the political issues in the world, is there are shades of gray. And when you think you've nailed all the shades of gray, there are more shades of gray, and that's okay. People who could deal with change, accept that gray, and try to understand what is the right solution for this moment and this shade of gray, if you will.
Scott Allen 20:24
Brian, I think we've just stumbled upon the title of your book.
Brian Fishel 20:27
Shades of Gray.
Scott Allen 20:29
More than 50 Shades of Gray.
Brian Fishel 20:35
That's good. The other thing is that change-driven people, or people who accept change around them, do two things. Number one, they bounce back and quickly learn from setbacks and failures. As I mentioned earlier, we're all going to fail in our careers. I have had failures, some small, some big ones, in my career, but I've learned from them all to not, hopefully, repeat the same mistakes in the future and then move forward. I don't get down on myself too long. And when I succeed, I also don't get too high and too excited. I just keep plowing ahead and finding ways to improve. That's being highly resilient, in my opinion. And then, also, people who are change-agile, change-driven, are able to have the courage to articulate and hold a point of view even when it's counter to the prevailing groupthink that may be going on and stand their ground when challenged in a productive way to help the entire conversation and that decision to move forward.
Scott Allen 21:36
So, you've mentioned this a couple of times now in a productive way. So would you talk a little bit about that, or are we going to get to that?
Brian Fishel 21:44
So, a productive way means creating productive dialogue and discussion. It's not my way or no other way. It's not me speaking over you. It's me sharing with you why my point of view is what it is either through data and facts, through experiences and examples, or just saying, “Here are my assumptions based on this multitude of data that I have in my hand, or what I've read about back to connecting dots,” and then allowing others to ask you questions for understanding. And, more importantly, allow them the room to share their point of view. And then, it's my job to ask them questions, to tease off of them their underlying assumptions of why they're saying what it is. That, to me, is productive discussion and how to have productive dialogue with peers, colleagues, teams, and leaders. You mentioned earlier the whole idea of high emotional intelligence. That's another characteristic that differentiates top-performing high potentials from others. They're able to handle tough situations and tough people's decisions very deftly. They're agile communicators; they relate to all levels and types of people. So, a lot of times, one of the questions I'll ask in a talent review is, is this person relatable? How do they communicate and interact with people who are lower on the rung of the ladder of hierarchy or higher or whatever? Communicate in a way that makes the complex simple that helps people relate to what's being designed, their ask of them, not just telling people what to do. They're politically adept. They’re able to handle critical stakeholder points of view and navigate organizational dynamics. And then, finally, and probably the one dearest to my heart, which is they're great at sizing up talent. They get a lot out of the people around them. They energize others and help others achieve their potential. That to me, those three things; highly emotional intelligence, experimenters, people that could deal with change and ambiguity, and are critical deep thinkers that connect dots, those are real differentiating points.
Scott Allen 24:06
Okay. And so, then, if I'm an individual who's kind of looking at my career, and I want to start charting a course, how can an individual increase their chance of being seen as a high potential in their company? I think we've probably touched on a few of them, and there are probably some clues, but just provide me with a roadmap here of what are some considerations if this is something that I want to endeavor to accomplish.
Brian Fishel 24:33
And you're right; a lot of what we've laid out is kind of foundational views that triangulate into what I'm going to share, but what I hopefully am going to share now is much more pragmatic in what can I go do immediately today, tomorrow, etc, to increase the likelihood of, not just being seen as high potential for my company, but more importantly, achieving my potential that every one of us has within us. So, the first and foremost is to always strive for excellence. We talk about having a track record of performance. Well, it starts with everything I produce, everything I deliver, everything I am accountable for; I'm doing it to the best of my abilities. And I'm looking to deliver A+ quality work on time, every time. There's an old military saying called ‘Completed Staff Work.’ All that really means is I'm able to deliver the work that was asked to me in a way that my superior, direct superior, will basically have the ability to prove quickly so that their higher-up is able to review that work and have confidence in the work. And all that really means is that when I'm delivering A-quality work and I'm striving for excellence in what I'm doing, I'm doing it thoroughly, thoughtfully, accurately, and with high quality. And that really does make a difference. In the end, it comes down to whether I have shown a real bias for strong execution. Can I get work done, get it done really well? And do I have the work ethic to get a lot done at the same time? And those are things we've talked about. So strive for that excellence and deliver A-quality work every time and on time. And if for some reason you're struggling, go ask for help.
Scott Allen 26:30
Well, I like that. Because I think, unfortunately, I don't know that it's too hard to differentiate yourself in this space sometimes. Because, I think, even just the very quick activity of, “Hey, would you read this before I submit it to my supervisor,” and having a thinking partner or someone that you trust their judgment, to just take a quick look, or running it through Grammarly. There are some simple habits of mind or just habits before we produce something that is no different than when we were in college. Have someone else read your work and get some feedback, and they will always find something. But if you're that individual who's delivering to me, and you're making my job easier because I don't have to think about the grammar, I don't have to think about the concept; you've made it easy for me, I want to promote you.
Brian Fishel 27:17
Absolutely. Whether it's promoting you or recognizing you publicly for that great work, it makes me, the manager, look better. It gives me the capacity to do more of what I want to do or take on more for myself, for the function, for the department, and for my team, because I know I have people underneath me who are always going to produce A-quality work on time, every time. And let's not kid ourselves: the idea of strong execution, delivering a high-quality product, and having a deep quality work ethic sounds easy, and not everybody has it. It really does differentiate from the moment you start working as early as in your career, whether you're delivering. When I was a kid, to date how old I am, delivering papers in the afternoon after school, making sure they're in the door and on time, and my monies collected, etc. To bring the CHR of a Key Bank. Making sure that what I had accountability for was delivered in a way that was productive and additive to the success of the company. So, strive for that excellence. Second, don't say no to opportunity. It sounds trite and easy. But when the proverbial knock on the door of opportunity comes, say yes with energy and enthusiasm. Again, it sounds so easy to say, but so many people don't do it. And I, as a leader, want people around me who have the energy and enthusiasm and say, “Yeah, I'll take that on. Let's figure it out. Let's dimensionalize it, and let's go after it.” And they do it with vigor and gusto, for lack of better words. But don't wait for that now. Be proactive. Seek out new opportunities and find ways to volunteer for projects, new work, or assignments. And even if it doesn't come with increased pay immediately, it will benefit you in the long run because, as I said earlier, the greater the variety of experiences I've had or others have, and there's tons of research on this from Center of Creative Leadership, who's probably wrote the book on this literally many, many years ago. The greater variety of experiences, the more likely one will succeed in different and new situations in the future. Again, an essential differentiator of high potential.
Scott Allen 29:33
Yes. Okay.
Brian Fishel 29:37
Be an energy adder, not an energy drainer. People want to work with people who are positive, and energetic, and optimistic. So attack your work, attack change head-on and with passion and energy. And be that resilient person in the face of change and adversity, who bounces back, learns from their mistakes, and moves forward.
Scott Allen 30:01
There's a composure there ‘when challenged.’
Brian Fishel 30:05
Absolutely. Well said. Absolutely. The other couple of items is a problem, not blame-focused. Too often, people want to point fingers and share the success but avoid the failure. We're all going to fail at times. Things go wrong naturally. It's how one recovers back to one point, to composure and resilience, resolves problems, and learns from failures. Again, these are things you could do today, if you haven't already, to increase your likelihood of tapping into that full potential each of us has, and that will be seen. And by being seen as someone with high potential, obviously, you'll be able to get new opportunities, maybe increase your chance of getting promoted, increase your chance of higher earning, etc. The last one that I’ll share with you, and I've learned this through my career, is to surround yourself, whether you're a manager of people or just working with others, surround yourself with and seek out diverse people who complement your weaknesses and blind spots, we all have them. So, why not surround yourself with people who are going to make you better or fill those gaps and who have experiences and capabilities you do not have? Not doing so is going to limit your opportunity, but also, not doing so is a sign of arrogance. We haven't even touched on arrogance. They want people who are confident, not arrogant.
Scott Allen 31:32
Okay. That could probably be a whole conversation.
Brian Fishel 31:36
There's quite a few things in this, hopefully, we unpack that will lead to a few things. So, in summary, unless you would like to summarize, I have two points to leave, which is when you put all this together, who has high potential? What do leaders look for in assessing people's potential? What differentiates people's high potential? More importantly, what practical things could I do immediately to increase the likelihood of tapping into my potential? How does that all play out in the end? So, early in people's careers, top talent or high-potential talent begin to emerge and differentiate themselves by, well, delivering results. First thing on the list that we've talked about. Willingness to take on new work and new challenges. Then, they collaborate and work well with their peers and colleagues to get things done, and they aren't competing for the limelight. That's early in a career. And then, those all kind of sustain as you advance in your career. But those in more senior executive levels excel by demonstrating things we've talked about critical thinking, intellectual bandwidth, or the mental and physical capacity to take on more work and think more strategically and be more future-oriented. They lead with a talent mindset and help make those around them better, and they're able to get people to follow them and mobilize to execute strategic priorities. So, that's kind of how it all comes together, in my opinion.
Scott Allen 33:20
I love it. Well, as people want to learn more, what are some resources you've stumbled upon that really stand out for you when it comes to this topic of high potential or navigating your career? Owning your career?
Brian Fishel 33:37
Yeah, there's a lot. Number one, personally, throughout my career, I've kept a journal of things that I've noticed and observed, the different experiences, the diversity of people I've interacted with, how I've related to them, how they related to me. And I keep this log that I've kept throughout my career to help shape me to be better to improve. But, more importantly, also, as I'm presented with new issues, new topics, new challenges, maybe I've been dealt that hand in the past or similarly, and how can I learn from that? And so I go back and bring that forward today. So that's kind of the personal practical side. I read a ton, as I mentioned earlier. First thing in the morning I do is read the Wall Street, the USA Today, I do the Apple news. I look and say, “What's out there, what's important?” I get a lot of information sent to me from a variety of research areas and companies to look at what they're studying and what their trends are and to bring that forward to my company. But then, there are some seminal books and articles that I've read over the years that really do make a difference. So,one would be ‘The Leadership Pipeline’ by Ram Charan and Stephen Drotter. He talks about that as you increase your career, as we talked about from starting out at a more junior level to the most senior ranks. How do you spend your time? How do you plan for what time frames? How do you lead people differently with an exceptional leadership pipeline? The second one is ‘The High Potential's Advantage’ by our good friend Jay Conger. It is a phenomenal book that covers a lot of what we talked about today on how to recognize and increase the likelihood in practical ways to be a high potential for a company and see it as a high potential. Then there's also an article that was written in the old Harvard Business Review that I want to say it's, hate to say it, Scott, I'm guessing it was in the 80s. But it's the Bible around it.
Scott Allen 35:39
Seminal. It's seminal, just say it's seminal.
Brian Fishel 35:43
Seminal, fair enough, Muscle-Build the Organization by the CEO of Pepsi, where I work at the time. part of Pepsi, and the CEO was Andrall Pearson. It talks about a lot of the elements. And so, what I've shared with you today, in my opinion, is a culmination, the combination and triangulation of these articles and many other books in the research of what I've seen, leaders assessing people and how people can tap into and achieve their potential. But I don't stop there, as you know, and I know you are probably one of the most well-read people I've ever met but think of non-traditional areas. So, one of the books I've recently read is called ‘The Tao of the Backup Catcher.’ As I said earlier, I'm a sports fanatic, a baseball fanatic. It's by Tim Brown and Eric Kratz, who is a backup catcher. And it really talks about how you lead from not necessarily the position of manager but how you lead your peers and your colleagues. And there's a reason why so many backup catchers, not necessarily superstar catchers, have become successful, highly successful managers in Major League Baseball because they're students and observers. They understand how people tick; they are highly emotionally intelligent and aware. They know how to prepare themselves for when their moment comes. But they also know how to support others. It's really a great book on leadership.
Scott Allen 37:13
Awesome. I have not heard of that, but I know that… If you think about it, the new manager of the Cleveland Guardians is a catcher. right?
Brian Fishel 37:23
Backup catcher. Lifelong backup catcher.
Scott Allen 37:26
Was he a backup catcher? Okay.
Brian Fishel 37:27
He had a couple of great years. It's a very good year, he is an all-star, but he's primarily a journeyman backup catcher who played in multiple teams. This [Inaudible 37:36] he played with the Guardians many years ago, of one of his, I think he played 15 years, I can't remember how many teams, but he wasn't just holding on to hold on, he added value to the organization, because of a lot of what we just described. He had what he lacked the physical tools of a superstar. But he had all the mental and physical attributes to help a team succeed. And know and play their role. And when needed, take on more. It's a lot of parallels if you will.
Scott Allen 38:07
Well, I know you're a Goggins fan as well, right?
Brian Fishel 38:11
Yeah. So, ‘Never finished,’ or ‘Can Hurt Me’ by David Goggins. You read him, many people I've come in contact read him. It's really the story of that mental and physical capacity and achieving true potential. Here's a guy that runs 100, 200, 300 mile marathons. And he did it while, in some cases, incredibly injured. And he finishes them strong. Anybody that can be a Navy Seal and a Greenbrae, among other things, is a unique individual.
Scott Allen 38:44
Brian, I will put all of that in the show notes. I'm so thankful for the conversation today. You bring a ton of wisdom. And for listeners, I think I just want to emphasize one thing. Being a high potential, I believe it's a choice. And if you want to be tapped as an individual, these are some considerations. These are some important clues about the conversations that are happening in the C-suite as they're thinking through, “Okay, who can we tap? How do we build our bench? What do we need to be considering? You've shared some incredible wisdom with us. Some people in organizational life may not want that. That's great. Make the choice intentional, and just potentially understand some of the trade-offs about what that means for your career. But thank you so much for the list you've given us and the wisdom you've shared, Brian. I very, very much appreciate it. I'm going to put all those resources in the show notes so that people can access those books that you mentioned, and those resources, the article from, like, 1976, the seminal…
Brian Fishel 39:47
Was it really 76?
Scott Allen 39:50
No, no, no. It wasn’t.
Brian Fishel 39:51
It was 80… You're going to tap me here. I want to say it's early 80s, though.
Scott Allen 39:56
But you know what? There's a document that I use from CCL that you mentioned from 1988. It's all about how to advance your career. And it's incredible. So you know what? Some of those ‘Who's Got the Monkey,’ some of those old HBR articles, are just absolutely wonderful and important reads.
Brian Fishel 40:18
I would just say, I obviously agree, but they're not the end all be all. So, there are newer topics and newer items to put in there. But the notion of having this pool of resources from which to pull so that I, or listeners here, create their own theory of the case, on this topic or other topics, is what mostly matters.
Scott Allen 40:44
Yep. Love it. Okay. Well, thank you so much, Brian. I really, really appreciate you sharing your wisdom today. We'll do it again.
Brian Fishel 40:50
Excellent. My pleasure. Anybody can always reach out to me; I assume, on your show notes, you’ll give them my contact information because one of my greatest pride and joys is how many people I've had the fortune to work with, manage, and lead, who I hope would say, “Boy, Brian really pushed me to tap into that potential.” And, in fact, when I look at so many individuals who worked with me earlier in my career, who are now Chief Human Resources or are running their own companies, who are taking on and having influence at huge strategic levels beyond me, I'm more than happy to provide that support.
Scott Allen 41:31
Well, thank you so much. Be well.
[End Of Recording]