Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott Allen

Roy Tuscany - Destroying Barriers

• Scott J. Allen • Season 1 • Episode 216

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Roy Tuscany is originally from Waterbury, VT, and after graduating from the University of Vermont with a Mechanical Engineering degree, he headed west to pursue the dream of being a professional free-skier. In 2006, Roy suffered a life-changing injury that left him paralyzed from the waist down and was the catalyst for the creation of High Fives. Roy turned the financial and community support of his recovery into a ‘pay-it-forward’ adventure with the creation of the High Fives Foundation. He was named the “Spirit Inspires” award from Disabled Sports USA in 2011 and once held the World Record for the most high fives in 24 hours. He lives in Reno, NV, with his partner Alana Nichols and son Gunnar. He enjoys finding fun in everything he does - biking, skiing, surfing, and everything outdoors.

A Quote From This Episode

  • "Post-traumatic growth is a rare phenomenon that individuals, after sustaining a life-changing injury, not only change to the way they physically move, but also their path of life."


Resources Mentioned in This Episode


About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

  • The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. Plan for ILA's 26th Global Conference in Chicago, IL - November 7-10, 2024.



About The Boler College of Business at John Carroll University

  • Boler offers four MBA programs – 1 Year Flexible, Hybrid, Online, and Professional. Each track offers flexible timelines and various class structure options (online, in-person, hybrid, asynchronous). Boler’s tech core and international study tour opportunities set these MBA programs apart. Rankings highlighted in the intro are taken from CEO Magazine.



About  Scott J. Allen



My Approach to Hosting

  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.

Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.

Scott Allen  0:00  

Okay everybody, welcome to the Phronesis podcast. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world today. I have Roy Tuscany, and he is originally from Waterbury, Vermont. And after graduating from UVM with a degree in mechanical engineering, Roy headed out west to pursue the dream of being a professional freeskier. In 2006, Roy suffered a life-changing injury that left him paralyzed from the waist down and was the catalyst to the creation of High Fives Foundation. Roy turned the financial and community support of his own recovery into a pay-it-forward adventure with the creation of High Fives Nonprofit Foundation. He was named the Spirit Inspires Award from Disabled Sports USA in 2011, and once held the world record for the most high fives in a 24-hour period. He lives in Reno, Nevada with his partner Alana Nichols, and son Gunner. And enjoys finding fun in everything he does; biking, skiing, surfing, and everything outdoors. We've got a couple of things we got to jump into right away. Did you spend a little bit of time at Nectar’s while you were at UVM, sir? 

 

Roy Tuscany  1:02  

Oh, man, what a great remembering there. Nectar’s, Yes, one of my favorite band is named by Strangers. It was an awesome jam band in the late 90s, early 2000. They did a lot of weeklies, we were hoping they were going to be the next Phish, Nectar wasn't there. Funny story, my aunt, actually her name is Debbie Sanders, It was always rumored that Nectar had a massive crush on her. She was a waitress there back in the day. So yes, yes and yes, is the answer to all. 

 

Scott Allen  1:29  

I've seen a Phish show or two in my day. So, I was in Burlington, and my family was kind of Going down for the night, and I said, “I'm gonna go on a walk,” and I just went over to Nectar’s and had a beer. No one was playing that night, but it was just nice to be there. Lovely part of the country. And then, I used to have this assignment, in my MBA course, where, literally, the students there, the 15% of their final grade, was achieving a Guinness World Record. So, the students had to find a world record, had to decide on which one they were going to do. And essentially, what it was was all these leadership concepts that we were discussing would just bubble up; the stressors, the need to influence others to participate. The students became a case study. But the first world record we ever got… Because every year they did it, they achieved it. And there's some pretty low-hanging fruit when it comes to world records, I can tell you some stories. But the first one they got was the most high fives in a minute. 

 

Roy Tuscany  2:23

No way.

 

Scott Allen  2:24

Yeah. That was a fascinating… They broke a record that had been accomplished in Japan. But just watching them go through this event, but it was the most number of high fives given in one minute. So, it was one person cruising through the room to try and get as many as possible. And, of course, we had folks from Deloitte there to certify it and stuff. But tell me your story about the Guinness World Record. You were literally just getting high fives for 24 hours?

 

Roy Tuscany  2:47  

Yeah. The wild thing about my story is I only held it for a short period of time. And originally, I did it as a way to try to help increase attendance to a ski show, and the ski show projected numbers. And, unfortunately, the numbers they projected I can tell you are not nearly the numbers they projected, which then led me on this absolute just carnage of a pursuit. I ended up going to Pac Bell stadium for a football game that ended up getting rained out. I ended up going to I think 50 plus bars. We had a counting box to hang clickers and video. And, lo and behold, I ended up breaking the record 9,225. The record before was 9,307, which was held at the time by a guy by the name of Josh Dueck, who’s actually one of my best buddies now. He's the first individual ever to do a backflip in a sit ski. And Josh and I have formed an awesome relationship. He's a member of our organization, everything. An Ambassador and an athlete. But it was ironic that it was used to pick off this ski show, which didn't end up happening at all near the numbers we needed, but then ended up using it as a really good promo for us. So, it's wild that you added that to your grading. I think it's so cool. That process is so wild, and it's always really exciting to hear just like every year when something gets broke. Because I think a lot of the records that were the traditional ones, that were in the original books, I think are kind of, like, they're more monumental. So, the ones now they're being broke are advantageous derivatives off of the bigger ones. Like what's the most high fives you can do in 24 hours while you know swimming across the Atlantic? Who knows what the next one will be, but I think that's the cool part. And it's cool. It's just such a great thing to claim, own and achieve. I have the record, and everything like that, and the big thing, so it's really cool. 

 

Scott Allen  4:48  

Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. Actually, I think there's a… So, I do a session with Toyota. And before I go on, there is a video taken inside the High Fives Foundation, I believe, and there's a Guinness World Record kind of sitting up against the desk. That's probably it.

 

Roy Tuscany  5:04  

Yeah. Oh, it's actually, it’s up on that wall right there to the left of me. (Laughs)

 

Scott Allen  5:12  

Well, okay, so let's talk about the High Fives Foundation. You are a founder. You are leading and really, really important organization in the world. And so, talk a little bit about the impetus of the organization, and then let's jump into what you're doing today. 

 

Roy Tuscany  5:27  

Yeah. So, back in 2004, I was an aspiring pro skier that moved out west to achieve the Aspen extreme dreams that T.J. Burke and Dexter Rutecki put for us. And they’re very famous to me, but not famous to all move called Aspen Extreme back in the day. I was here for two years, ended up being Coach of the Year. And unfortunately, went 130 feet on 100-foot jump on the weekend of the coach's retreat. So, it's supposed to be a coach's retreat to celebrate the weekend. Ironically, they've never done the coaches' retreat since 2006, the Sugar Bowl Academy. I don't know what might have happened to cause them to remove this from the planning each year. But I sustained a life-changing injury and hadan impact into the snow. Burst fractured my key 12 vertebrae into my spine. And the impact caused a new path for my life. I was immediately life-flighted to the hospital here in Reno, emergency surgery. And I had now entered into this world of spinal cord injuries, spinal cord injury recovery, adaptive sports, disability, and kind of all those things in between. And I think that's something that I never planned, but, gosh, am I glad that this community in this world existed, and how I have also been a part of it and welcomed into it as well from the very beginning. And I think that's one thing that many people realize. If you have these life-changing injuries, your life is going to get through, or thrown apart. But, at some point, there's a really great path. 

 

Scott Allen  6:49  

Wow, wow. And so, you had this experience, and then talk a little bit about the process of founding the organization.

 

Roy Tuscany  6:59  

So, when I got hurt, there wasn't really organizations that were a part of, I guess, would be, helping you along the path. That, to me, was something that I was like, “Wow, the advice that I've been given right now, while I lay here in a hospital bed, if this is the advice that's being given to those, maybe there should be something out there that provided a little bit more guidance so that others could recover.” And I think, to me, that has been one of the driving forces, but then also just seeing like how underserved the community is, and how, at one time, and a lot of great organizations; Challenge Athletes Foundation, Kelly Brush Foundation, and others have helped like spearhead along with High Five, to help eliminate what I think was really a stronghold on the organization when I first got hurt, which was adaptive sports were really controlled by like adaptive programming. And so, if you wanted to try skiing, you'd have to register in advance, and then get those. And you still need all those because, without them, you don't have the process to learn. But then there was no step after that. So, I think amazing organizations like the ones I listed, and there's a ton out there, those are just some of my favorites, kind of have enabled individuals, both everybody that we support, and others, to have the ability to own their own equipment. And that now eliminates that barrier of, like, cool, I get to go skiing on the third Saturday in December for three hours. What if the weather's not good? Well, you're already locked into paying for it, and stuff. So, I think it really gives the opportunity that myself and other organizations have done to empower individuals with life-changing injuries, disabilities, adaptive sports, and move forward because now they have their own equipment. And you still need those amazing programs, and there's so many good ones across the country, Vermont Adaptive, Achieve Tahoe, National Sports Center for Disabled, National Ability Center, the list goes on. But the biggest thing is I think there was a gap after the person learned and how do they do this independently now because none of this equipment is cheap. And I think that's what I myself and those organizations have done and really push forward for others and giving the idea of adapting and destroying the barrier, and that barrier was the ownership of your own equipment.

 

Scott Allen  9:17  

I love that phrasing, ‘destroying the barrier.’ That's what we’re gonna call this episode. That's awesome. Talk more about that. Destroying the barrier.

 

Roy Tuscany  9:26  

So, for the longest time, I had always heard this term, ‘adapt and overcome.’ And while I think that's a really great mindset that no matter what comes for me, I'll adapt, and overcome, and I'll be able to move forward. The problem that I had was, okay, well, if I learn how to overcome, how do I share that with other people in a way that other people get the ability to also overcome? And I said, “Wait a second, hold on. So all we're really doing is we're seeing a barrier, we're getting a ladder, and let's say the ladder is 8 feet tall and the wall’s 10 feet. And so, everybody who has the ability to get on top of an eight-foot ladder, and then climb over a 10-foot wall, and then come down the other side, well, they can overcome. They can adapt and overcome.” And I just have always struggled. And I actually got the ability, the gift to do a TED talk this year, and the TED Talks called ‘Adapt and Destroy.’ I did it up here in Reno, and it was a phenomenal experience to be able to share this. And now to be able to also share it in a kind of crunched-down version is that instead of putting that ladder up, the whole concept is, well, let's just drive something through the law. And let's make it so that instead of someone else having to figure out the playbook to overcome, the playbook is drive this truck through the wall and allow the next person after you to see that the barrier’s no longer there. And I think that's l been a really cool thing that myself and the organization and other organizations have really been able to do. It’s like, no, no, let's stop using ladders with shoots on the other side, that game was never fun, you could never win as a kid. And let's get those fast and the furious cars and drive right through the walls.

 

Scott Allen  11:10  

So, tell me a couple of stories, just stories that stand out for you. As you've done this work., and you think about the work, what are some stories that make you smile when you think about them? What you've witnessed based on what the organization has done for others.

 

Roy Tuscany  11:25  

I think one thing that is overarching is if you think about all these different groups, and especially over the last couple of years, there’s been a really big highlight based on race, ethnic group, religion, there's so many of these things, and they all get highlighted. And, at times, they get really risen up, even though they're a small percentage of the overall population. And the one thing that I've noticed is that, through these rises and these struggles, that each of these groups identify and show, at times they get risen to the top in a way that almost seems like it's just this incredible amount of support, which I believe everybody should get. Life is hard, and if you can find ways to support others that have it a little bit harder in some way or not, well then awesome, we're making the world a better place. But I'll tell you what, the one group that I have seen that gets so underserved are individuals with disabilities. And the reason being is that… I forgot this phenomenon, there's actually an acronym for it. Is that we're all becoming disabled. From that, there is a fear. And the fear is knowing that we take for granted our able body at the time as whatever we have. And most people look at it from a ‘I got to go do this,’ instead of ‘I get to go do this.’ And there's such a different mindset within that little switch of one vowel and that second word. And so, the thing that I've seen that myself and High Fives, and again, I can't take this credit, I want to list as many organizations, but there's so many we'd fill the whole time listing them, just know that all the organizations that are working in the adaptive disabled space, if I mention or not, are doing incredible work. But the thing that I've noticed is that this community is so underserved, and it's because I believe people are afraid to see what might actually happen to them. Because as we age, we start to disable. I always say this joke to folks, “What are you most scared of?” And I say, “Oh, it's a disease; OLD.” And they’re like, “Whoa, what can OLD? Is that  HIV or all these little acronyms?” I'm like, “No, just just put the letters together.” They’re like, “It's old.” And I'm like, “Yeah, and you can't do anything against it.” We can try to help ourselves, but we're all aging. And so, I think one reason disability has been underserved is the fact that people are afraid of the idea that they're going to become disabled themselves. And instead of just helping, the easiest way, and I learned this from this great group of people, that it is going to take a couple of generations. And I think what we're doing is helping speed up this, but during the return of vets from Vietnam, it was one of the first times where, actually, folks came back alive with amputation, or wheelchair, or whatever type of disability. It was really the first time because before they [Inaudible 14:14] survivor, they stayed where they were. And so people came back. And I remember this as a kid growing up in a small town that had a mental health hospital in it, including a lot of Vietnam beds, is the fact that my parents, and nothing against them, and everybody in our community… So, when you see an individual with a disability, smile, look away, and walk. So, how is it now that we're going to change this generational change? Well, it's gonna take a little bit of time, but that's a big mission of mine, and myself and others. And I'm seeing it already. This most recently, one thing that makes me so smile, recently at the ISA World Para Surfing Championship that were just held in Huntington Beach, which Alana just shredded. Scored a perfect 10, got barreled in the ocean. Like, “Wow, raise the bar.” But the true energy that I saw was a young girl from Scotland that's a quadruple amputee, by the name of Jade, became really good friends with my four-year-old son Gunner. And the relationship they built at that time was just too young. She's really much younger, but she's still competing in this World Division. They built this awesome bond. And when Gunner got back, he said, “Hey, Mom and Dad, this girl Jade is really cool. And it's okay that she's different because I'm different too.” And that mindset right there. I know what I led up to get to there, but I had to say all those things because I believe what we're doing is helping change that mindset because I'm not going to teach my son to smile, look away, and continue to move on. Everybody's got a heart, and everybody's got a mind, we all take two breaths, and, outside of those three things, well then we can start to argue how we are different. But if we go to the core of that, then we are all the same. And I think that's one of our biggest things that makes me smile about what we're doing at High Fives. And that's just one of the ways that I've recognized that we've been able to do it and show it for it. The other things that come to this place is just we get to do a lot of cool surprises. And I think that's been some of the biggest things when we do this thing called the Dream Boat award. And this guy, his name is Ryan McLaren. He works as the Chief of Staff for a congressman in Vermont by the name of Peter Welch. And Ryan is a walking paraplegic like myself. Got hurt skiing, very similar story to mine. And when we first met him, he was probably, I don't know, over 200 pounds, and that was something that was holding back his recovery. And during COVID, most of us, unfortunately, gained weight. Ryan took the opportunity and said, “Hey, I've got this time, and I'm going to focus on me. And one of the biggest hindrances that I've had is my weight.” And so, we didn't host anything for a period of time with the foundation. We got to gathering together to do an adapter mountain bike camp about 10 months into COVID. And, all of a sudden, this dude's walking up and he’s super skinny, great chiseled face, perfect hair. And I was like, “Danny, who is this? I thought I saw everyone on the list.” She’s like, “Holy crap. It's Ryan.” We started at that time what we call the Dream Boat, and it's got nothing to do with physical looks. But what we've done from that is that moment, seeing how committed Ryan was to that, we ended up giving him an E-bike so that he could keep going biking, biking with his family. And we do traditional grants, but we also do discretionary grants at times that help further a lot of people's goals. And so, Ryan started this trend called the Dream Boat. And so, now, every camp that we host, we host 24 camps a year, we give away a Dream Boat Award. And we host them in five verticals. We host them in dirt, surf, bike, fish, and snow. And, at each of these, we nominate an award, a Dream Boat Award. And that individual gets to leave that camp knowing that they're getting a brand new piece of equipment. And the dream boat has nothing to do with their physical appearance, the dream boat is they're now getting a new vessel to go do their favorite thing. And I think that's one of the biggest takeaways that I love doing is that surprise because you never know and it evolves. When we go into the camp, we’re not like, “Okay, this person's gonna get it.” It's some camps or one day, some are week long. And over those time periods, it evolves into who gets it. And I think, as we spoke about, one of the biggest takeaways that I saw that wasn't available in this space was people owning their own equipment. So, we're just furthering what I witnessed 15 years ago, and we get to do it all the time now. 

 

Scott Allen  18:39  

So, as you were just speaking, something came to mind for me. I finished a weekend-long course about two weeks ago. And it's a course on presentation skills. So, essentially, these are grad students that come in Friday night, all day Saturday, Sunday, and we challenge them to work at a really high level. We make it fun, we have belts. So you get your white belt, and then you get a yellow belt, and then you get a black belt. And the students are walking around proud of themselves. But what's really, really interesting about that weekend is that, just in a very short period of time, you have people with a certain identity of what, in their mind, bumbling around, “I'm not a good presenter, I'm not that person who can stand up.” And it is so beautiful, so beautiful, on Sunday morning, we have a final competition. It's like a dance-off, but it's for speakers. So, we make a big deal of it. And, oftentimes, the five people that their group is nominated to present aren't the five people we would have thought would be up there presenting, and they're knocking it out of the park. They're just killing it. And you can see this just beautiful identity shift happening literally in front of your eyes. I imagine you see that too. You see, over a course of a period of time, someone walks in, and it's just beautiful, Roy. I can only imagine that this is happening. But you see people's identity begin to shift and, like, “Oh my gosh, wow, I could maybe, perhaps, I think I can.” And you get to be a part of that process. I'm right, aren’t I?

 

Roy Tuscany  20:09  

You're literally… I think you have a microphone in our office, or something, because we just had this conversation. We have our upcoming gala… 

 

Scott Allen  20:18

Beautiful, isn’t it?

 

Roy Tuscany  20:20

It's so beautiful. And this one that I have, you just opened up the book to one of the coolest ones ever. So, motorcycle clubs, motorcycle gangs. Legitimate patches, leather, Sons of Anarchy. Individual got hurt. He's in a motorcycle club here in Reno, it's called The Lucky Ones. And let's just say they don't have a reputation that they show up with flowers, everything. They’re a true motorcycle club. Austin got paralyzed. And, at the time, I want to say he was 250-plus pounds. Tattooed to the galore. Everywhere. Wears shirts that he designs himself with just very aggressive writing on them. And when I first met him, I met him on a phone call during COVID. I didn't really get a visual, and I'll talk to anybody who had a spinal cord injury. So, then after that, about a year later, COVID is kind of relaxing a little bit, things are lifting, and he's at a bike camper hosting. And someone's like, “Yo, that's Austin. He really wants to chat with you. He said he met you at Renown.” I was like, “I didn't meet that dude.” And they're like, “No, Austin wants to chat with you.” And I was like, “Yeah, I didn’t meet that dude.” And I was so intimidated to the highest degree. And then, they finally said, “Dude, just just go over there. You guys have one common thing regardless. You both have spinal cord injuries, and you want to show up today and ride mountain bikes together. So let's do this.” Boom, boom, boom. Go over, introduce myself to him. And I'll never forget it. As I came in, “Austin, I’m Roy,” and I definitely over-amplified my voice, probably put my chest out, grabbed my hand in a way, and definitely gave a good solid look to be like, “Yeah.” And he's like, “Hey, Roy, it's so nice to see you.” I'm like, “Wait, what is…?” It was like this little soft baby voice. And that started this journey with him. Now, fast forward to where we are today, he might be 165 pounds of pure lean muscle. Take too that his injury has caused him to the loss of his legs, and he uses a wheelchair. And he is absolutely finding every shape, way, or form to show up and participate, show up and work out. And the payoff is not only just physically, but it's also his mental, his emotional, his social. And he went from this guy that, like, take the worst character in Sons of Anarchy, if you've seen the show, to paint that picture. Who had this life-changing injury, and instead of saying, “I'm going to amplify the path I'm on,” “I'm going to find something called post-traumatic growth. And I'm going to use this injury to grow myself through this traumatic experience.”

 

Scott Allen  23:04  

Wow. I’ve never heard that phrase; post-traumatic growth. Would you talk…

 

Roy Tuscany  23:09  

Oh, man, you want to go deep? 

 

Scott Allen  23:10  

Well, we got the time. Let's do it. (Laughs)

 

Roy Tuscany  23:12  

All right. So we have a Netflix film coming out in January called Full Circle. It's about the journey of an individual by the name of Trevor Kennison, who is probably the most popular adaptive skier right now. He's easily the most popular snow sports athlete with a disability, and he's doing things that are unheard of. While in the process of putting a short documentary together, he entered into Corbet's couloir up at Jackson Hole in the Kings and Queens event and put himself on the map, made SportsCenter top 10. But the wild thing is Corbet's couloir is named after an individual by the name of Barry Corbet. Barry Corbet was the Campbell man and was on the original support staff to get the first team up to the top of Everest. And he decided not to go up to the top because he said, “I'm young. I'll be back again.” Unfortunately, the next year he had an injury that changed his life while filming his e-documentary. And he too had a spinal cord injury. So, as Trevor becomes famous as an individual with spinal cord injury, airing into Corbet's couloir, we understand and start to develop the storyline of Barry Corbet. We then put together a four-year project that dovetails Trevor and Barry's story together to showcase what is possible after a life-changing injury. And he ends up going to Craig, both of them, and the story is amazing. And what we showcase in the film is so many things, but the one thing is there's an individual by the name of Dr. Lester Buck, and he is a psychologist from Craig Hospital. And he had this coined, this term post-traumatic growth. And it is a rare phenomenon that individuals, after sustaining a life-changing injury, will put together a life-changing, not only change to the way they physically move, but also to the way their path of life. And instead of allowing it to decline, you actually become this almost superhuman. Alana Nichols is one, Josh Dueck is one, Trevor Kennison is one, Barry Corbet is one. The list goes on and on, but it's rare. And when it's done, it's absolutely, truthfully, the one time you can probably use the term inspiring, or inspirational, or at least, use for what those individuals have done because going to the grocery store or getting in and out of the car is not inspiring. That is just what an individual has to do every day. But what that list of folks that I just put together have done and plus many more, that is post-traumatic growth. That is inspirational. That is inspiring.

 

Scott Allen  25:49  

Wow. I'm really excited to watch that. What I'd love to know from you is how has it been to lead? Obviously, that's not probably why you got into the gig, but you found yourself leading this organization. What are you learning about yourself while you're doing that work? What do you think?

 

Roy Tuscany  26:13  

How unaccountable I was for my actions for the first many years of operating. How truth and honesty is the driving force in all really amazing outcomes of life. That, as a leader, you need to respond and not react. That, until you have 10,000 hours of doing something, you are not an expert at all. That, if you believe that you've achieved perfection, you're not a leader. And that if you're ever really in a bad place, and you need to know how to move forward for something, there's this video by Jocko called Good. And it'll just shock you when you hear his words about good, what are you gonna do next? And if you're always at that point of, “Alright, good. What can I do better?” And I think that's really it. But mine, oh my God, I started High Five in 2009 with no idea what I was doing. 15 years later, I think I've got a pretty good idea of what I'm doing. I've got an amazing board and incredible staff that help really showcase my success in a way that, yeah, it takes a good leader, but, at the same time, I'm nothing without these individuals. I'm super lucky. I treated people pretty poorly through the first seven years in my organization due to the fact that founder’s glory and alcoholism. I was a horrific alcoholic that, instead of facing any issues, it was easier just to get drunk and have a good time with people and forget about the way that you may treat them because you got them drunk and bought them a round of shot, and you guys got deep later that night. That's not real. Over the last seven years of discovery, it took what? Five years to get the booze out of my system, I think. I think I drink so much that, to truly detox, to truly get everything out, took a pretty good long period of time. And I think, in the last couple of years, I finally had all the blinders off and can really see how my behavior affects people. I'm a positive infectious, joy-bringing, happy person. Well, I hate to say it, I can also be on the flip side of that as well. That's not anybody else's fault other than myself. And, after a long period of time blinding it with alcohol, and then moving through a space of releasing all that alcohol, it's really gotten me to this point where this guy, his name's Terry Real, he says that every decision that I have, if the outcome is not kind, then the decision does not go forward. And that was about a week ago, so I'm not saying this is some glorified practice that I've been using. But I'll tell you what, I can tell you that, until the last week, I've never thought of every decision that I make if the outcome’s not kind. Well, then, why do I actually have to make the decision? And I've always been held with I have to make these decisions. Yeah. The other day, I was on an HR call with our HR firm, bless their heart, The Applied Companies in Reno, Nevada. I love you guys because you have helped with so many things in my world. But I told them straight up, “I didn't start High Fives to talk about benefits. I didn't talk about payment structures. I didn't talk about a handbook. This is not why I started High Fives.” I saw that there was a massive void in this world, and it has taken a lot to be able to fill that void, to be able to stand where we are today. We're hitting our 15th year. And so many people told me for the longest time, “Get to 10 years, then you're viable, then you're liable, then you're sustainable.” Well, we hit 10, a lot of great success in the last five, but I really think the next five are going to be the best five ever of High Fives and that's because I think they finally have a leader that's accountable for his mistakes. He's got a team built around him that can do things that he's not capable of doing. And he also knows that his personality, his emotion, and his leadership is what people want. And if I can show up like that, I tell everyone, I'll tell you, “Just show up today, you're being 90% everybody else.” Well, if I can show up today with that joy every time, and just imagine what we can do. And I think that, to me, that's leadership. But now the biggest thing is putting it into practice and then making it a ritual.

 

Scott Allen  30:56  

Well, there's a great -- we've talked a little bit about it -- identity shift. And I think you said mindset once in the conversation today. But Carol Dweck at Stanford has a book called Mindset. And she also has a saying in that book, “Becoming is better than being.” And so, I just appreciate your vulnerability there. And I appreciate your recognition because we all are imperfect, we all are works in progress. We all have great strengths, and sometimes those strengths are weaknesses. And that becoming is better than being just always stands out for me. You're on the path. And I think that's all we can ask folks is that you're trying to look within, trying to be better, and paying attention.

 

Roy Tuscany  31:40  

Yeah. I think that's the biggest takeaway is no path is straight. And it goes back to our adapt and destroy. If every time you hit a barrier, if you're not able to find the detour or figure out the way to tunnel through, or hole around, or put your bridge up and over it, or just smash the wall too. Send some tank through it, or…I don't even know about how to blow down walls, but there's probably something else cool out there too. I think that's the biggest thing is, like, no path is A to B. And you’re so focused on A to B, which I think not allowing yourself to feel things, using other things to eliminate feelings is a great way to stay on a path that goes A to B because the fact that you are just on this path that only you are present on. So, you're only going A to B, you're not allowing anyone else on that path. And I think that's a really big thing that I think a lot of people need to understand that I never planned for a life-changing experience. I wasn't like, “Okay, cool. At the age of 24 and a half, you're gonna break your back and you're no longer going to ski the way you did. You're no longer going to be building houses and working on an engineering job. You're going to now be leading a nonprofit organization that has stepped up to the forefront of being one of the nationally recognized organizations that's really doing great change in this space.” I can tell you, that has never been on my list, but it's on my list now.

 

Scott Allen  33:04  

Yeah. Well, Roy, as we begin to wind down for today, what's caught your attention recently? What have you been streaming or listening to? Is there a podcast that you love? A resource that stands out? It could have to do with what we've just discussed, it might have nothing to do with what we've discussed. I was saying to you earlier, Alana had mentioned this book, ‘The Myth of Normal,’ I'm 75% of the way through that powerful listen, I'm listening to it when I work out. But what stands out for you? What's caught your attention in recent times?

 

Roy Tuscany  33:34  

I'm searching for every podcast that Gabor Mate is on. I'm probably butchering his name because I'm horrific at saying people's names correctly. He was just on Diary of a CEO. He was on a quick little one with Joe Rogan. He's been on with Armchair Expert. The most one that's been recent was on a Diary of a CEO when he talks about how his interview with Prince Harry really put him in a space that speaks at such a high level of how to overcome, or move forward, or be comfortable with, and can hear someone, expert in the field, leading individual in that mindset change, kind of vertical, to hear him talk about having to deploy his own set of tools that he speaks about. He talks about how he would be to a large group and then feels defrauded because he's telling these individuals, “You can't succumb to all these things,” and it's happening to him right then. And so, to hear someone like that, it really makes you understand, like, “Yo, be kind to yourself.” And I said this to my dad the other day, and it was such a cool practice to hear. My dad's all frustrated because he's got an ankle injury. And he literally goes, “Stupid ol me. I could have just been working on this before. I wish I wasn't so lazy and thought about my health a little bit more.” And I stopped him, I said, “Hey, Dad, you're a lazy piece of shit. Why don't you try harder?” He's like, “Dude, what the hell, man?” He's like, “Why are you saying that to me?” I was like, “I'm just taking your words, what you're saying to yourself about yourself, and allowing you to hear someone else say them to you because you would never, ever allow anybody to talk to you that way.” And he stopped right then. And the worst part about this, if we're being honest, is I give advice that I need more than anyone, but I think sometimes, when you're able to hear it, that's the best teacher. Is when you can stop and be like, “Whoa, I'm going to give the advice that someone else needs to hear, but you’re the one who needs to hear it more.” And I think the way he's been talking, that's really cool. This book that I've been reading, one that I think everyone should read, is just Matthew McConaughey. Like you just said, most people like to read books, but if you're ever gonna say, “I'll listen to one book on tape, The way he draws in there when he talks about his brother…you're just like, “Oh my God.” Imagine if he said that to you, how the hell would you just hold that together. That, to me, is just really good. And then, anything by Ryan Holiday, I love his books. I just finished the ‘Discipline is Destiny’ book that he just did. And then another one that I've always really liked that I kind of go back to… I really find books, and I kind of go back to them because I'll fall asleep to them. I travel so much. I'm constantly on planes listening to books, so I kind of have to go back and go back and kind of go through them. But yeah, ‘Greenlights’ is on there. That's just one that never stops. And then there’s one that's kind of out there, hey, Judge me if you want, called ‘Many Lives, Many Masters.’ And it's this concept about we've all been here before. And some trauma that we can't let go of could be from past lives. And they have real-life incidents of documented, truly medical documented reports of people that can talk about the Gettysburg war and have a wound from that time that’s now a birthmark. Anyways, it's out there. But I love to challenge the mind. Every once in a while, Many Lives, Many Masters. So, if there's three books, I would say, Many Lives, Many Masters, anything by Ryan Holiday, and then anything you can find by Gabor Mate. And then, do listen to Greenlights by Matthew McConaughey because it's just so good. Even if you don’t listen to the words, just listen to his voice. 

 

Scott Allen  37:33  

No, I listen to that as well, and you're right. He's just kind of fascinating to listen to. The only other individual that has read a book where I was just absolutely captivated. I would look forward to getting in the car, it is Tyson Yunkaporta, and he wrote a book called ‘Sand Talk.’ And it's how indigenous thinking can change the world. Sand Talk. And to listen to this gentleman tell the story, it's just absolutely beautiful. So, that's what I'll kind of leave listeners with. If we're gonna go with Yunkaporta You just want to listen to Tyson read this book because it's just captivating. Absolutely captivating. Well, sir, you're doing good work in the world. You're a good dude. You're doing good work on yourself. And thank you. Thank you for all the good and all that good energy that you're putting out into the world, and the life that you're changing. And I can see it walking alongside people as their identity is shifting, and they're seeing a new future and a new path for themselves in times when maybe it's a little bit unclear. That's God's work. I'm not putting any version on anything, but you're earning some karma points. (Laughs)

 

Roy Tuscany  38:50  

I appreciate that. I appreciate the recognition. Thank you.

 

Scott Allen 38:56  

We'll do it again. Thank you so much for your time today. Thanks for all the good you're doing in the world, Roy.

 

Roy Tuscany  39:00  

Thank you so much. It's really wild to me. We're about to do our gala. There's 50 tables at this gala, all the centerpieces. We couldn't think, like, “What should we do? What should we do?” Boom, we had this idea, and we created national forest signs. And so, the idea that was it the correct move? Thank you because there's no coincidences in life when people realize that, when people see the signs. And this is a non-pun, I see the sign. Thank you for confirming something for me, and thanks for such a great conversation as well, man.

 

Scott Allen  39:32  

I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Thank you, sir. Be well. Take care. 

 

Roy Tuscany  39:35

Cheers.

 

 

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