Dr. Susan R. Komives is Professor Emerita in the Student Affairs Graduate Program at the U. Maryland where she taught until 2012. She is past president of CAS and ACPA and was Vice President of two institutions. She is the co-author or co-editor of 16 books, including Exploring Leadership, Leadership for A Better World, Handbook for Student Leadership Development, and How Academic Disciplines Approach Leadership. She and her research teams developed the Multi-institutional Study of Leadership and the Leadership Identity Development grounded theory. She is co-founder of the National Clearinghouse for Leadership Programs and the founding editor of the Wiley New Directions for Student Leadership series.
Dr. Julie E. Owen (she/her) is an Associate Professor of Leadership Studies at the School of Integrative Studies, George Mason, where she coordinates the leadership studies major and minor and is affiliate faculty with Women and Gender Studies and the Higher Education Program. Her most recent book is We are the Leaders We've Been Waiting For: Women and Leadership Development in College (Stylus, 2020).. Owen identifies as a white, currently-able, middle-class, cisgender woman working in the academy. She is committed to using her voice to advocate for positive social change leading to more equitable leadership for all and to consider how identities and social power shape practice. She explores the intersections of leadership identity, women’s adult development, and the scholarship of liberatory leadership teaching and learning.
About The Book
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
About The Boler College of Business at John Carroll University
About Scott J. Allen
My Approach to Hosting
Dr. Susan R. Komives is Professor Emerita in the Student Affairs Graduate Program at the U. Maryland where she taught until 2012. She is past president of CAS and ACPA and was Vice President of two institutions. She is the co-author or co-editor of 16 books, including Exploring Leadership, Leadership for A Better World, Handbook for Student Leadership Development, and How Academic Disciplines Approach Leadership. She and her research teams developed the Multi-institutional Study of Leadership and the Leadership Identity Development grounded theory. She is co-founder of the National Clearinghouse for Leadership Programs and the founding editor of the Wiley New Directions for Student Leadership series.
Dr. Julie E. Owen (she/her) is an Associate Professor of Leadership Studies at the School of Integrative Studies, George Mason, where she coordinates the leadership studies major and minor and is affiliate faculty with Women and Gender Studies and the Higher Education Program. Her most recent book is We are the Leaders We've Been Waiting For: Women and Leadership Development in College (Stylus, 2020).. Owen identifies as a white, currently-able, middle-class, cisgender woman working in the academy. She is committed to using her voice to advocate for positive social change leading to more equitable leadership for all and to consider how identities and social power shape practice. She explores the intersections of leadership identity, women’s adult development, and the scholarship of liberatory leadership teaching and learning.
About The Book
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
About The Boler College of Business at John Carroll University
About Scott J. Allen
My Approach to Hosting
Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.
Scott Allen 0:00
Okay, everybody, welcome to the Phronesis podcast. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world today. I have two longtime friends right now, and I'm so excited for this conversation. We have Dr. Susan Komives, and we have Dr. Julie Owen. Susan is professor emeritus in the Student Affairs Graduate Program at the University of Maryland College Park, where she taught until her retirement in 2012. She is past president of CAS and ACPA and served as vice president of two institutions. She is the co-author or co-editor of 16 books, including ‘Exploring Leadership’, ‘Leadership for a Better World,’ ‘Handbook for Student Leadership Development,’ and ‘How Academic Disciplines Approach Leadership.’ She and her research teams developed the Multi-Institutional Study of Leadership and the Leadership Identity Development Grounded Theory. She is co-founder of the National Clearinghouse for Leadership Programs and the founding editor of the Wiley New Directions for Student Leadership Series. She has consulted in leadership or student affairs in Canada, China, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and Qatar. She is the 2022 recipient of the ILA Lifetime Achievement Award. Her latest book in development with co-editor Julie Owen is ‘A Research Agenda for Leadership Learning and Developing in Higher Education’ with Edward Elgar Press, bringing an equity-minded perspective to interrogating and redirecting leadership education research. I think I just said leadership probably 72 times there in your bio, Susan. And I also have Dr. Julie Owen (She/ Her). She is the Associate Professor of Leadership Studies at the School of Integrative Studies, George Mason University, where she coordinates the Leadership Studies, major and minor, and is an affiliate faculty with women and gender studies in the higher education program. Her most recent books are ‘We Are the Leaders We've Been Waiting For: Women and Leadership Development in College’ and ‘A Research Agenda for Leadership Learning and Development through Higher Education,’ co-edited with Dr. Susan Komives. Owen identifies as a white, currently able, middle-class cisgender woman working in the academy. She is committed to using her voice to advocate for positive social change, leading to more equitable leadership for all, and to consider how identities and social power shape practice. Her research explores the intersections of leadership identity and women's adult development, as well as the scholarship of liberatory leadership teaching and learning. To the two of you, thank you so much for being here. I really, really appreciate the two of you. Maybe each of you can share a little bit more about you for listeners. Susan, would you like to start us off today?
Susan Komives 2:39
Well, it was wonderful to hear all those things you said. And retirement is great. I have to say now that the first phase of retirement was doing more with leadership education. So, it's some of those books and the things that happened then. But now, I'm entering after 11 years of retirement, really meaning it when I say it, so this book was the last one, and no more books after this. But I also realize that 50 years ago, this summer, I came across a photo. 50 years ago, I was [Inaudible 3:06] with my doctorate at the University of Tennessee, 50 years. You think about perspectives like that when you are retired. So, that era in time really reminded me of how inclusion is so important in the work that developed in leadership education for me, women's issues, civil rights issues, and the things happening in the 60s and 70s. So, it's been a pretty reflective time to be retired, and great to be doing this about the last book with you.
Scott Allen 3:33
Well, Susan, it's good to have you here. Thank you so much. And Julie, what else do the listeners need to know about you?
Julie Owen 3:38
Well, first, I want to say something about what Susan said. But that picture of you, Susan, typing your dissertation on a typewriter was… I was like, “Oh my gosh, you should get two Ph.D.s for that, for having to use a typewriter to create your masterpiece.” It was amazing. I also want to just honor how I know Susan, who was my doctoral advisor at the University of Maryland. She didn't know that she was going to be my lifelong mentor, I still kind of stick to her like glue. So, I'm very appreciative that Susan puts up with me all this time and invites me to do these really cool projects with her. I did not know this was going to be her last book, so I said yes because I said yes to everything Susan asked me to do. I was always valuable, I was meaningful, but it became especially felt really important when I learned that fact that it is her last book, as you said, so far. We'll see.
Susan Komives 4:24
She's never realized in all this time that I was the one stalking her.
(Laughter)
Scott Allen 4:32
Well, so what brought the two of you to this book project? What was the genesis of this?
Susan Komives 4:37
Well, there's a long story and a short story; I think I will tell the slightly longer version, honest, Julie. But Edward Elgar Press contacted me about their research agenda series that they had started and wanted to do a book on developing leadership, or leadership development through higher education, is what they called it. And I thought, “Well, that could be my last book.” The field at this moment in time -- mark the moment 2021, 2022 -- was really gelling and coalescing, and it was wonderful to see the bodies of scholarship and the development of elements of leadership education, understanding all those nuances. And then, I thought, “But I don't want to do it by myself. I've never liked doing that; collaborating is more important.” And who to better collaborate with on this topic than Julie? And so, I called Julie. And then, Julie said to me, “Susan, they already asked me, and I said, No.” I went, “What?”
(Laughter)
Susan Komives 5:34
That is wonderful. But she said, “For you, I will say yes. We will do it.” So Elgar got a twofer. They got the two people they asked to do the book without knowing that was going to happen. But the very fun thing to know is that I never asked them; doing this podcast reminds me I should know why they picked that topic. I wonder how it got to their awareness that leadership education through higher education was an important thing to explore with a research agenda. So, that'll be on my list of things to do after this podcast. But it was a chance to explore this field of leadership education that had gelled, and had shape, and had scholarship. It is time to reexamine it with a critical lens toward social justice and social identities. Things that we may be more taking too for granted or need to do better. So, a great opportunity to do something at the right point in time.
Scott Allen 6:26
Awesome. Awesome. Julie, anything you want to add?
Julie Owen 6:28
Well, I haven't shared this with Susan, but Susan, I keep thinking they asked John Dugan first, and he referred them to us. So, I'll probably keep tracing this back. But it was interesting because, when Susan approached me, the reason I said no was like, well, we already have all these agendas on the field. And some of them are more recent and really critical. So, we have the CAS leadership standards that have been recently updated. ILA, the general principles, and guiding questions. Then, we put it into our own [Inaudible 6:50] and had just put out the national leadership education research agenda, which explicitly linked leadership and social justice. So, I was like, “We already have this,” but Susan had a vision that I did not have, which was we need something that further scaffolds those existing agendas and actually shows how to bring critical research to the good questions that were posing those agendas. So actually, she was like, “Oh, we really need this second complement,” like this complement to what's already out there. There is a need for this volume. And so, I'm so glad we kind of do this. And, thinking about how we actually enact these agendas that exist out there and getting really specific about tracing the history of how people research these things and how they might do so moving forward in critical and emancipatory ways.
Scott Allen 7:31
Well, so how's the book organized? That sounds wonderful that you have these different bodies of work in mind. And then, you kind of begin to think about this contribution and how to, in some ways, as I understand it, bring some of those other pieces together, correct?
Susan Komives 7:49
Yes. And, we organized it into four parts because we wanted to give life to, as we've been discussing, the elements that exist or that we think should be explored in leadership education. The beginning section is on the context of leadership in higher education and the framing of elements in the book, like the social justice agenda that we think's important to bring to this and international perspectives on leadership that can fit into that. It takes a very Western approach. The book is designed for programs that we know best, but it has translate ability to others with a critical lens. But then, the next big section is on understanding the leader and leadership development. So, both the individual student, because that's how higher ed is organized, but also teams and other collectives. So, it has to take a multi-level approach to leadership development. And too much is done on entity work and not on that relational process, group-related work. And then, we have a large section that we call leadership education that explores what research is known about leadership, learning, disciplinary perspectives in leadership education, the design and impact of various leadership programs, and pedagogical practices, particularly seen through a liberatory pedagogy lens, and leadership educator roles, identities, preparation. So, it explores what's known, what needs to be known, and what needs to be done in those areas. And then, ends with a call for action for critical and innovative research. So, it explores classic and emergent approaches to research as well as then some special commentary from a group of new career scholars that Julie will share more with you about how we embrace them and how they brought life to this project. And then, some recommendations on advancing the scholarship. But we tried to differentiate them within that, elements that need to have research done in their own right. And, each of the content chapters, we asked to approach a template kind of approach with the scope of the constructs, the research findings that are already established, what gaps intentions are seen in those, and that particularly brings a critical theory kind of approach to those gaps intentions, and then recommendations for a new agenda. So readers, particularly practitioners who want to improve practice, can do it from an evidence-based approach and see how they could contribute, and researchers, grad students, leadership educators, and researchers might get new ideas from this research agenda our authors are proposing.
Julie Owen 10:23
And also, some of the things I thought were very powerful in our process -- so Susan really covered the content very well -- is it required a multi-level peer review, which is very cool. So, all of the authors read other people's chapters, which I think, especially when their chapters are still in process, you go back and revise, and we were inspired by each other or pushed in certain ways when we read other people's chapters. So, that was cool. And like an extra lift for the author, so we thank all of them for doing… They read this and also read and comment on other things. But, to me, what Susan mentioned, the coolest part for me was I had just written the ‘We are the Leaders We've Been Waiting For’ women's leadership book, and I realized the limits of my knowledge and expertise, Scott, as wise leaders do. And I brought on board a group of critical friends, which were early career scholars who would say, “You, you say you're being intersectional there, but you're not.” And sort of gently poking at me. And so, Susan was so kind of like, “Let's do a similar co-inquiry process with this book; after all, agendas are for… Who's going to inherit the agenda that we set?” Those of us who are towards the end of our careers, which I now include myself in that camp, I'm closer to the end than I am to the beginning. I can ask questions, but we need younger folks to push them forward and enact them. So, they really did an amazing job of looking at the manuscript with an eye toward decolonizing leadership, centering justice, equity, and inclusion. And they really focused down on power in leadership scholarship. Manifestations of power in leadership, including what is expertise and who has expertise. That's a juicy question: who did we collect along the way? I highly recommend anybody read… If you read one chapter, chapter 13, in the volume, it’ll really push everyone forward. And quickly, because I can, we can; I want to give a quick shout-out to just say their names: Lauren Irwin, Danyelle Reynolds, Adrian Bitton, Sharrell Hassell-Goodman, Trisha Teig, and Nick Fuselier. Thank you. Thank you. Susan and I owe them a profound debt of gratitude for making this better and more inclusive.
Scott Allen 12:19
So, what are some key takeaways from the volume that you kind of… maybe even surprised the two of you as you were working on this piece of literature?
Susan Komives 12:28
Yes. I think many things even solidified for us as this emerged. One was that the emergent field of leadership education does have definable elements. There is a body of scholarship, and it shaped the construct of a leadership educator. There's much to be celebrated. There's a complexity now to doing leadership education in an intentional way that we wanted to bring to life through the organization of the book and the content. Then, the second thing is that research needs to interrogate past methods, findings, and meaning, and shape future scholarship in a much more inclusive way that would advance equity, inclusion, and justice, shape practice, and further clarify expectations. That, in turn, helps shape new leadership theory. So, we need to bring in and bring it alive, study it, and see what does or doesn't work in those new methods. So, currently, another learning is that leadership educators have to step up to this; it isn't just for researchers. But as educators, we've got to examine our practices and implicit and explicit approaches and really ask questions like, “What's working, and for whom?” Then, ask, “What data? What understandings are needed to reshape what we do?” Then, make changes and ask, “Do those approaches work, and for whom?” And this is a cycle. So, that assessment cycle always needs to be asking the ‘for whom’ question. I think another awareness for me, particularly being a student affairs scholar all of my career, too, is that there's a large body of work on college student development, social identities, cognitive development, and psychosocial development to incorporate in how leadership is learned and enacted. These are bodies of knowledge that we need to merge together. In particular, faculty doing research in other disciplines turn to the college student development literature to help make meaning out of what they think they're finding in your research. It adds meaning and layers of complexity to use that body of work. The other awareness was that multilevel analysis is absolutely imperative. We just can't keep doing entity studies about the leader, we've got to engage in relational studies about the group, the team, the organization, and look at that multi-level approach. And that's where process, leadership as process emerges, but there's much more work that needs to be done in, particularly, leadership education. How do we educate groups in organizations about what's going on in their leadership? We still are pretty focused on the individual.
Julie Owen 14:55
One of the things when we were thinking about how we summarize this book in the last chapter is,“Remember empowering and constraining beliefs from way back and rethinking leadership; that document back in the day?” Empowering constraining beliefs that shape leadership, education research. And so, it was fun to sort of go through and trace some of those. That sort of big-picture ideas that may be constraining us in ways we didn't even know. And some of them were like Western bias in leadership education research. We hear a lot of that with some of your guests on here, of individualistic and leader-centric approaches; we don't pay enough attention to contextual and systemic forces. And, really see almost this shift from psychological to sociological approaches to the study of leadership. We have narrower and reductionist understandings of identity. And then, of course, the big one, quantitative bias, is all throughout. So, we sort of elevate quantitative studies over what many people do these days, which is sort of the power of narrative, story, and more qualitative research.
Scott Allen 15:51
There's a greater depth. There's a holistic perspective that is just looking at this from so many different perspectives that I think it's a fuller picture than, potentially, how we've understood this topic. Even as I think about finishing my dissertation in 2006, the words that just came out of your mouse would have been mind-boggling in 2005 when we were just reading Bass and Avolio. (Laughs) And that wasn't bad. That was incredible stuff in its own right, but there's just such a greater depth of what's being explored right now.
Julie Owen 16:29
So true. And we really feel like anybody who picks this up, anybody who's in the dissertation process, will find a myriad of questions and things left to explore. To me, one of the most exciting things about being in the field of leadership is that there are always new horizons, and we're sort of always reimagining ourselves. So, I feel very much what you said, Scott.
Scott Allen 16:45
So, how might people use or apply the volume? What are you thinking? You've alluded to this a little bit, but how can people apply their work to the volume? I imagine anyone who's, as you just mentioned, anyone who is working on their dissertation or young in their career, I imagine there are avenues here ripe for establishing a research agenda, or avenues ripe for educators to work to begin thinking about how was some of this content implemented in the classroom? Am I on the right path here?
Susan Komives 17:14
I think you just said it. I think, for the redundancy of it, I would say, we would hope that practitioners would learn from this to ask better and deeper questions about the design of the work that they're doing for leadership, learning, and development, which is the title of the book so that it's more intentional. However, they would ask questions about and interrogate their own practices and learn to do that by reading the way the authors did that in these chapters.
Julie Owen 17:43
Yes. I would say the process itself can be modeled, too. So, I can't overstate the value of inviting critical friends to speak the truth about whatever you're working on or give different lenses and perspectives. And I think that could be a program or it could be whatever kind of coaching, whatever kind of leadership you're part of. People could benefit from that.
Susan Komives 18:03
I think, too, I know all those years of graduate teaching that there was a joke or meme that said, “You know you're a graduate student when you look at the references before you even read the chapter.” And, one of the remarkable things about a book that turned out good like this is the references are so rich with resources one would turn to. For example, a lot of the qualitative methodologies that Julie was alluding to, someone would have to search out on their own. But, in this book, those are overviewed in a chapter on engaging these kinds of methods, and therefore, you're referred to resources that do that. So it would help that researcher jumpstart their agenda or methodology to get a book like this that does an overview of those,
Scott Allen 18:44
And, something I've loved about this project, just the Phronesis podcast, is that it constantly keeps me in a place of reflection. And I'm constantly having new insights as I'm talking with others. What were some insights? I imagine this is a similar process to the book. What insights did you have, personal insights, as you worked on this project? What comes to mind there?
Susan Komives 19:06
Well, I had several. One was when my husband told me, “I can't believe you're buying more books still,” but I had to buy lots more books to really understand the critical process of research. And I learned a lot from that. But one thing that was affirming that I learned, this may go back to your comment, Scott, that in 2005, you wouldn't have called some things you knew that existed in 2006. Some of it is, when your work is gelling and seems to be going in a good direction, later, you find people have a name for that, you just didn't know it at the time. So, I felt kind of affirmed that the co-creating of knowledge process that I've always used as a grad faculty member, really enjoyed that process, is really a liberatory pedagogy because that co-creating is a shift in the power dynamic and that knowledge has been created by people from all of our awarenesses of what meaning it has for us. But to call it liberatory pedagogy, I would probably not have known to say. I did with theories work as that came into my awareness, certainly, years ago, but that was meaningful. Another is the affirmation that all the work that I've tried to do in my life has been around this multilevel analysis being essential. The relational leadership model, when we did it, is a process model. The Social Change Model, the ensemble that developed, has the individual, the group, and the community dimensions of how leadership needs to be engaged and developed. And so, it's affirming to see that those multi-level approaches have been a theme for me, but we might not have used those words at that time as we were presenting that.
Scott Allen 20:37
Julie, how about you?
Julie Owen 20:39
My big personal insight is I want to be like Susan and be the world's best lifelong learner. Oh, my gosh, can you imagine being in retirement and being like, “I'm still pushing forward; I’m still learning”? And it's truly amazing to witness, and I want to embrace that in my life. So, I don't know if I told you that, Susan, so I’m going to publicly embarrass you and tell you that. But it's just really cool that we don't ever rest on our laurels; it’s a reminder to do that. And then, I think just this idea that leadership is about social construction, and there are many stories most often told. So, how do we surface those stories, or are they less often told? I've been doing more my reading about epistemic justice and epistemic injustice and how certain kinds of knowing are privileged. And I think, in leadership especially, we privilege certain kinds of doing, and there's so much indigenous wisdom and other kinds of wisdom out there to learn from about how we even ask the questions. So, I think that's where I'm going.
Scott Allen 21:33
So well said. The first part, for sure, is about Susan because, Susan, it's incredible the decades of work and contributions that you've made, not only in developing people and scholars but in the output, in the work that you've done, the contributions to the field. So, it's such a beautiful model of staying curious and productive and continuing to learn because, to your point, Ralph said, “Do we need all these new books?”
(Laughter)
Scott Allen 22:07
I hope my wife is saying that. But there's so much to learn. And each one of us is a work in progress and, hopefully, never finished in our endeavors. It's just so multifaceted. And, again, I don't necessarily have words for it yet, and I wish I did, but it just seems like the depth from which you're pulling is just a greater hole than a conversation I've been in recently.
Susan Komives 22:34
Thank you.
Scott Allen 22:36
Well, I would like to know what the two of you… What's caught your attention recently? It could be something you've been streaming or listening to. It could have to do with leadership; maybe it has nothing to do with leadership. But what's caught your attention that listeners might be interested in? Julie?
Julie Owen 22:51
I'm so excited that you asked this question, Scott. Plus, it’s also my favorite part of your podcast when I listen back to Phronesis. I sometimes zoom to the end a lot of time to find out what we were listening to. [Inaudible 23:02] as a strength, so I want to hear all the… I want all the sources. But I just watched something; it's been a long time, so that was something that made me stop doing everything I was doing and focus for about two and a half hours. The Little Richard documentary - Little Richard: I Am Everything. It was on CNN, I think it was at Sundance this year. Really trace the black queer origins of rock'n'roll. We came away being like, “Little Richard invented rock'n'roll, and Elvis and others sort of appropriated it.” And they show these cringy… It's like Pat Boone singing ‘Tutti Frutti’ in 1951 versus what Little Richard really intended. There's a fabulous backstory. I won't be a spoiler, but there's a great backstory about that song ‘Tutti Frutti.’ But really, they trace it all the way to little last acts and like how queer voices and black queer voices have been part of… Really, originators and how they were appropriated. And then, I can relate to leadership. I actually was thinking about this podcast and, like, the sum of what we've been uncovering in leadership too; what voices who had all kinds of privilege sort of took stories that existed and put them forward, and how we can start to rectify that, or revisit that, or even ask… There's some good - Xena, Sherman's blog Queering Leadership, and there's been some queering leadership stuff at JOLE. So, anyway, that's where my brain has been, but highly… It's just entertaining, and you're dancing by the end. And then, also tragic in some ways too that they never really got the recognition, potentially, that he could have in his lifetime. So, that’s mine.
Scott Allen 24:26
That’s a good one. I've never explored Little Richard. It's on CNN, huh?
Julie Owen 24:31
Yeah. It was, they said it weeks ago. I don't know if it's still streaming, but yeah.
Susan Komives 24:35
Outstanding documentary; I agree with you. And I remember Pat Boone singing ‘Tutti Frutti.’ Oh gee.
Scott Allen 24:43
I think, Susan, you are writing your dissertation on the typewriter, right?
Susan Komives 24:47
Well, that's another story. I was writing my dissertation when the Watergate hearings were on. Butterfield said the tapes would show, and I was screaming out of the apartment, shouting down to the pool of the Graduate Student complex I was in, “There are tapes.” And everybody went running back to their apartments to listen to Watergate because it was on tape, and we now knew it was. I have great memories of typing a dissertation, and that is one of them. But I have to say, and I'm going to repeat it because I think Julian does marvelous work. And her book ‘We are the Leaders We've Been Waiting For’ is just outstanding and should be in every women's leadership course. But I think it's a marvelous book. Julie also has the most recent New Directions for Student Leadership Series issue out on examining leadership identity development in a broader way. So, that research that we did 20 years ago that keeps living, Julie, and others, and her colleagues are now taking it to new levels of analysis and into that broader field of leadership and identity development. I really recommend that. Women stream in everything in the world, and you can find leadership lessons in everything. But we've watched all of Yellowstone and its various spin-offs, so every single for 1883 1923 in the Yellowstone series has marvelous lessons, good and bad, about how leadership is enacted. And, in this case, in the context of different times in the United States, quite interesting to see it as a time context study of leadership.
Scott Allen 26:15
Wow. Now, have the two of you watched ‘The Bear’?
Scott Allen 26:19
Oh, yes, absolutely. Oh, yeah. Outstanding. There's so many like that. Yeah, that's outstanding.
Julie Owen 26:24
I have not, but I've been told to you. That and the Barbie movie. The Barbie movie, the students are like… They came to my leadership class. “Is this class about the Barbie movie?” I'm like, “No, but we will talk about it.” Every paper has been about the Barbie movie. But yeah.
Scott Allen 26:38
Well, yeah. So, again, if your eyes are wide open, there's so much that you can see, literally, right in front of your eyes that there's just so much to consume right now. And, as always, so much to learn. I love talking with the two of you because I hear new words, I hear new phrases that I say, “You know what? I need to go explore this. I wasn't aware. I didn't know.” And so I'm excited to explore this volume. And, I appreciate your work and your contributions. Thank you. Thank you so much for stopping by today and sharing this. For listeners, there are so many links in the show notes you can't even imagine. We will put those links in the show notes, and you can explore them on your own. And as always, thanks, everyone, for checking in. And Susan, Julie, thank you so much for your incredible work. I really, really appreciate you. Happy Thanksgiving.
Julie Owen 27:28
Thank you, Scott. Thanks for the invitation.
Scott Allen 27:30
I am thankful for the two of you. Be well.
[End Of Audio]