Dr. Cynthia Cherrey is President and CEO of the International Leadership Association (ILA), a global community committed to increasing quality research, teaching, and leadership practices contributing to the world's common good. As president of a multi-sector and global professional association, she promotes rigor and relevance of leadership at the intersection of theory and practice. Previously, Cynthia was Lecturer in the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs and Vice President for Campus Life at Princeton University. She speaks to non-profit and for-profit organizations worldwide and writes in leadership, organizational development, and higher education. Cynthia’s interests and research explore new ways to live, work, and lead in a knowledge-driven, interdependent, global culture.
Dr. Jim Dennis served as president of McKendree University for more than 25 years. Under his leadership the former chairmain of the board said the following of his leadership while at the University - “The accomplishments achieved as a result of Jim Dennis’ leadership have been nothing short of miraculous...Upon his arrival in 1994, he sought to breathe new life and vitality into this institution—and he has done so by every measure. The McKendree University community has been transformed by a more diverse faculty and student body, state-of-the-art facilities, a rich curriculum and presence in the arts, a focus on service, and graduating young men and women who are successful in every field and walk of life.” He also spent 27 years at the University of Southern California and is the co-founder of Cousins Camp (perhaps one of his greatest achievements).
Quote From This Episode
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
About The Boler College of Business at John Carroll University
About Scott J. Allen
My Approach to Hosting
Dr. Cynthia Cherrey is President and CEO of the International Leadership Association (ILA), a global community committed to increasing quality research, teaching, and leadership practices contributing to the world's common good. As president of a multi-sector and global professional association, she promotes rigor and relevance of leadership at the intersection of theory and practice. Previously, Cynthia was Lecturer in the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs and Vice President for Campus Life at Princeton University. She speaks to non-profit and for-profit organizations worldwide and writes in leadership, organizational development, and higher education. Cynthia’s interests and research explore new ways to live, work, and lead in a knowledge-driven, interdependent, global culture.
Dr. Jim Dennis served as president of McKendree University for more than 25 years. Under his leadership the former chairmain of the board said the following of his leadership while at the University - “The accomplishments achieved as a result of Jim Dennis’ leadership have been nothing short of miraculous...Upon his arrival in 1994, he sought to breathe new life and vitality into this institution—and he has done so by every measure. The McKendree University community has been transformed by a more diverse faculty and student body, state-of-the-art facilities, a rich curriculum and presence in the arts, a focus on service, and graduating young men and women who are successful in every field and walk of life.” He also spent 27 years at the University of Southern California and is the co-founder of Cousins Camp (perhaps one of his greatest achievements).
Quote From This Episode
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
About The Boler College of Business at John Carroll University
About Scott J. Allen
My Approach to Hosting
Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.
Scott Allen 0:03
Okay, everybody, welcome to the Phronesis podcast. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world. We have a really fun conversation, a conversation that really began...the root of this conversation, for me, at least began last summer. It was July 2023. And I was with Cynthia Cherry and Jim Dennis, at their home in California, had a wonderful evening, beautiful summer nights, having a glass of wine on their deck and just learning about them. And they started to share this story. Now, Cynthia, as many of you listeners know, is the president of the International Leadership Association. She has been a guest before. And her husband, Jim Dennis, has served as a university president of VP Student Affairs, and you know, we just had this wonderful evening, and they were telling me the story. And for me, leadership was written all over it. And I kind of had this vision of what this episode would be called. I think I want to call it "The Greatest Gift." Because I think what the two of you are doing is just an incredible gift. So you told me about cousin camp. And I want listeners to have a sense of what cousin camp is. Because, again, for me, leadership is all over what the two of you are doing within your family. And I think for anyone who is listening, we know that leadership happens in a number of different contexts, whether that's an organization or a movement, but it's also happening in families. And the two of you are doing some pretty incredible work. So let's talk about cousin camp cousin camp. Cynthia, would you be willing to begin the story of Cousin Camp? Yeah,
Cyn Cherry 2:26
I'll shape and give it a little bit of context. And then Jim will give you kind of an overview of cousins camp itself. But I think as Jim and I were talking about this, this is what happens when you bring two people together who have been in higher education for many, many years, who our Student Development Student Affairs specialists, college administrators, one who was a camp counselor for many years, and the other which has been in leader development and leadership for many, many years, you put that together. And when you spend time with your grandchildren, in a five-day camp, it just comes out in very natural ways and in very intentional ways, as we've done this for a number of years. So, Jim, if you want to give an overview.
Jim Dennis 3:16
Five years ago, we brought our five grandchildren together for the purpose of getting to know them better and hoping that they would get to know us better as well, though; what we learned was that we gained much more information from them about ourselves than they likely did about themselves, which was exciting for us and, and energizing and, and great fun. We gathered for a week in our home and Newport Beach in California and had a series of activities and events that we put together kind of on the lam as it were in the beginning, just kind of putting different pieces together that we thought they might enjoy. spent five days together. They spent the night with us. So we have a small condominium, and they bumped out in the living room floor, they bumped in the den, and they made themselves quite comfortable. Along with their comfort, they also began to learn that this was not going to be a normal experience with their grandparents and that they were going to have some challenges that they perhaps had not anticipated. And what those included were opportunities to practice leadership, notions and ideas to get a little bit of Leadership Theory. Unbeknownst to them, of course, and to challenge them in ways that we thought would be a good learning experience for them. So, five days of activities where they planned the day's activities. We started with the very first day, we said, your parents have to leave. We've been waiting for that. The parents reluctantly departed, not knowing at all what was going to happen to their kids. And we sat in the living room of our condominium. And we said, here's what's your going to do first? Looked at us quizzically and said, Okay. And we said that we're going to make rules for the week. And these are cousin camp rules. They said, in return, well, what would you like us to say? Something I looked at them, it's just not in our heads, no, these are not our rules. These are your rules, we have no rules for you, you're going to have rules for yourself. So they spent about an hour discussing, debating, laughing, and coming to a conclusion about seven or eight things they agreed upon that they would try to adhere to for the week in terms of treating people as they would like to be treated. And, you know, in the, in the one direction, another direction, pick up your shoes and put them away. And out of that group, just as a series of standards, I think that they really believed in what they followed, and they made our life much easier. And so that was kind of the beginning point where we just caught on to this and kept going through the Waco trying to find ways that we can press them to think more about what leadership is. And that's just not something that we have really pre-programmed or anything of that nature. It was just kind of an as we go, we're going to try to enhance and pro for making think about, about what leadership is. And so they did that with their rules. They developed Cousins Court, and if you violated the rules, You were you had to stand in front of your four other cousins. And they had a court system.
Jim Dennis 7:53
They had a model they developed, but they didn't ever have to use it, which we were very happy about.
Scott Allen 8:06
So, no one got no one made it to cousin's court?
Jim Dennis 8:09
No - there were some threats. We didn't have a cousin's police force or peasant enforcing group or anything of that type. But we, we certainly had them set the standard and then adhere to the standards, and then had them reinforce them with one another, which was really easy for us. So we removed ourselves as the overlords, if you will, or you know, the dictators. And so you guys, this is your this is your week. And it just went from there. We had activities that went around all different kinds of things, from surfing, to camping out, to campfires - getting a campfire is fun because we have the campfire in our front room. Which consisted of a small plastic candle that was battery-driven, that we would put in the middle of the living room floor, and we would all sit around the campfire and reflect on the day...what we had learned from one another and from others and what the experiences were like and how we might use some of this information to affect our own lives. And I think something, and I've found that it was great for the kids. But we learned a lot more than they did, probably about ourselves as well as about them. And I think what happened was we created a connection, a link if you will, that lasts to this day. This was five years ago and last to this day. We're We have a special bond with those five kids as they have grown. The most fierce defender of maintaining cousins camp has been our oldest granddaughter, who, when we said this year, that's probably the last year we're going to do this, we're gonna move on. She said, Oh, you think so? No, she has just continues to maintain, we'll see her here. In the next few days, she's going to remind us that we have to have some form of getting the cousins together to share, to learn to grow. And to enjoy life with one another, which was really our goal.
Cyn Cherry 10:48
One of the things that we learned, Scott, is, you know, in our roles, like in your role, we create some parameters. So every day had some structure to it, for example, because it was five days long. So each one of the grandkids had one day where they took on the main leadership role. And then that included making sure of the responsibility, everybody was up in the morning and being ready to get out the door. It did mean that they got to choose where they would have some choices of lunch cetera. But it also meant they were responsible for preparing the meals in the evening and deciding their other cousins, who was going to do what was going to set the table, who was going to clean up, and who was the sous chef. So all of those were part of being responsible for the day. But there's the other side, too, as you know, when you have the leadership behaviors, leader behaviors, you also have followership. And what does it mean to be a good follower? Actions? And, I think one of the things Jim and I learned is observing the eldest brands, having to go into a followership role with their younger cousins, was a challenge and, at the same time, a great learning tool for each of them. So we would reflect on that every night, as Jim mentioned, in the campfire, right? What did you learn today? Right? How are we doing with following cousin camp rules, right? So that leader behavior and follower behavior in the unique context of it being a camp for a week was just a powerful learning experience?
Scott Allen 12:44
Well, and so for listeners, I think you can kind of see the power of this experience cousins camp for just a number of different reasons and from a number of different perspectives and angles. And it seems that something that's just really, really powerful about this experience is that shared space and the relationships that are built, would you talk a little bit about that the relationships, Jim, you had mentioned it, the relationship not only with your grandchildren but the relationships among the grandchildren, that has to have been really powerful to watch and experience.
Jim Dennis 13:23
I think our vision is through, and our hope is that the cousins will stay connected throughout their lives, will enhance their lives, one to another, and will gather at holidays, or at least remember people's holidays and special moments that they've had together. And that they don't live necessarily close to one another. So this is a unique opportunity for them to gather and share for Cousins Camp. So I think all of that helps has helped us to kind of focus on moving forward with the idea. Yet, each year, we've tried to change the concept significantly to the shall we say, age adjustment. So what we were doing in the beginning is not nearly as much fun today for the 16-year-old. I don't think we said the range of the ages, but it's 16, 14, 12, and 10 and a half. Those are twins, the youngest, and so trying to be relevant from an age standpoint in terms of what they're going through in their lives currently is a challenge for us. We've been surprised and gratified that they've wanted to continue to compensate their grandparents. We hope that lasts a long time, of course, but at least in the short run, it's been it's been terrific.
Scott Allen 15:18
If you would, I would love to hear from each one of you. Just a reflection on one of your favorite moments: we have five years of experience we have. We have five days each year. So it's about 25 days. Are there some moments that stand out for each of you that just really solidified and made you proud? Made you thankful? Are there some moments like that that stand out for you that listeners could learn a little bit more about that standout?
Jim Dennis 15:52
Of course, we have one that we share and have shared with others. When asked. Sometimes, when not asked!The middle grandchild, Tyler, by name. A year ago. Cynthia was talking with them about leadership concepts. And just basic stuff. I'm aware. We're not indoctrinating these kids -just trying to share some ideas. But we asked each of them to just describe what they've learned about leadership. During the time that they've been with us, we've talked about these things. They all went around the circle that was probably the campfire, and Tiger was last. And the oldest girls are very erudite, very, I mean, they said lots of flowery nice kinds of things. And we're going, that's great. And then, on the two youngest ones, the twins kind of roughed out a little bit, but they were pretty good. And Tyler said, and I think he captivated and captured an important part of a whole lesson that we were trying to convey. And that was, he said, "You know, CC and G-Daddy, What I've learned about leadership is really hard!" And we looked at one of those that bingo, guys got it. Go for it. We had, and we have reminded all of them of that moment. And they all agree. You know, we talk in general generalities about leadership. But when you are the leader or playing the role of the leader, you have to put into practice wonderful concepts that people can talk about. It's hard work. And it's not an easy process. And I'm not sure that Tyler was necessarily talking about leadership in the global sense. He was talking about how can I get my older cousins to set the table in the morning for breakfast or make their bed or what, but, man, he said, it's really hard. And I will tell you about Tyler - a serious problem for some leaders. He has a person who in his mind says, this is going to be a tough one; I'll just do it myself. I'll just do it. And you guys don't have to worry about it. As opposed to one of the cousins, the oldest one, I suspect, who happens to be your sister, said, "You go get it done. This is your job." You know, it's your responsibility. We're not going to flourish. We may not have a meal unless you get your degree. And what a great what a great lesson, though, for those kids and to see the event for us to reflect on it later and talk about it. And you can just see the wheels turning, which is so much fun. I'm not sure they would weigh in on it exactly the same way as I just, but I think it was exciting for us to see see
Scott Allen 19:48
and how about you?
Cyn Cherry 19:51
I think one of the takeaways that we've learned is one that we all know is that we play to our strengths. But sometimes, we have to play to our voice On our ability to get better. So, going back to Tyler, the middle one, he's a collaborator. And he just believes people are going to come and rise to the occasion, right? And that's a wonderful, ideal to have. And sometimes it works. But not everyone's going to rise to the occasion to clean the table. So that's, that's a piece where you there's a, there's more nudging that needs to be done. And he's learning how to ask and ask again and request and request again. So he's learning that scale. Big Four, the two eldest ones, are both girls, and they're the oldest in each family. They're learning how they need to listen to and respect their younger cousins and siblings. Going back to what we talked about earlier, the importance of being a good follower is just as important as being a good leader. And so one of the takeaways, and I think all five of them had an aha moment. And one of our reflected times was the importance of both roles. We all move in and out of those roles at different times, and how were you effective and good? In both of those. I think the other thing we learned is that one of the youngest with L. Her strengths are organizing, engaging, and bringing everybody together, and she does it in a way that creates a sense of fun and doing. So she's just got that sense of bringing people together in a real positive way. And I think that's one of the things we learn about Alice or organization. So one of the other things, Scott, that we did, as you continue to refine, is we would theme every day. And so each and every one of them came up with their theme for the day. Oh, wow. So, for example, Wednesday, the middle of the day, has been Elle's kind of day when she's in that leadership role. And her theme has been Topsy Turvy Day. Topsy Turvy Day meant we had lunch for breakfast, dinner for lunch, and breakfast for dinner. Explain that stuff and think about it. And with that, she got really creative. That meant that we had pancakes with blueberries and chocolate chips and more chocolate chips and syrup for dinner. Yeah. that lends itself to being their favorite dinner. our least favorite dinner, we had to drink lots of water just like with that day, she also she would do handstands and stand upside down before she started are bringing everybody together. It's part of her creativity. Right and engaging everybody in a fun way. So we learned that about a girl that we probably wouldn't have known.
Scott Allen 23:38
Yeah. What had the two of you - last question? What have you two learned about yourselves? In this process that maybe you didn't know, going in?
Cyn Cherry 23:49
I'm going to or me, watching Jim. And yes, the grandfather role, but more, even more. So this ability helps them really think about themselves who they are and what they do, and how that impacts others. So I guess I see him kind of flipped back into that counselor role. And seeing him ask the deep questions. This last year, Jim added at a campfire, in addition How was the day? What did you learn? You know, are we following the Cousins Camp rules? He asked the question every night, and they were different. You know, one was, what does success look like to you? Wow. It was like listening to them. Talk about their different versions of success was just that was an oh wow moment for me. Both in Jim's deep questions, which we all know in leadership is so important. Right? Then, listen to the five of them talk about that and engage with each other on that question. That was powerful.
Scott Allen 25:12
Wow!
Jim Dennis 25:14
We call them 'profundities'
Scott Allen 25:19
camp has its own language!
Jim Dennis 25:22
It was, "How would you like to be treated?" "How do you want to treat others?" "Does money buy happiness?" "Does doing work that you don't like for the rest of your life just to be able to survive? How do you feel about that?"
Cyn Cherry 25:46
What do you think about what's happening in world affairs? So that was a question we asked all of it. And that got into not only knowledge of what's happening historically but also how they think about it in terms of leadership,
Jim Dennis 26:00
they have an amazing amount of knowledge and information about the war in Ukraine and knew a lot about Russia; I knew a lot about Ukraine that didn't come from us, and may not have come from the parents, came either through schooling or through friends, communication, and and then the way they would communicate with one another also, well, I don't know that that's true. Exactly. You know, or, gee, I heard it a different way or, you know, whatever it happened to be it was, it was fun to see the dialogue take place.
Scott Allen 26:42
When else you're learning about yourselves?
Jim Dennis 26:48
I've reinforced the fact that there's nothing much better than having grandkids, and having them nearby, and being able to interact with them, and be a very small part of their lives. And they don't know, but they're a very big part of our lives. So it's, I mean, just the joy, the sheer joy that one gets from interacting with five, you know, little kids who, you know, are starting on their journey of life and watching them develop and grow. And, and, and I think I think one of the things that we appreciated the most I've learned is, they unconditionally, Scott unconditionally, love us, each other, and love each other. Now, I'm not sure I can always say that about our children, but our grandchildren.
The grandparents who are out there here's this is gonna know exactly what I'm talking about. Of course, our kids love us, but my point is grandchildren. It's just, it's no questions house. Boom. There's a relationship there. And it's just a good connection. And they asked, I mean, they asked me questions that, I think, where did that come from? Really asking me that. It is so great. A bit, it's, it's one of those peak experiences that we talk about how I got the great fun.
Scott Allen 28:38
Well, that's a great place for us to pause for today. For listeners, I hope that you have a sense of how meaningful this has been for Cynthia and Jim. I hope that for those of you who are in similar spaces, maybe it sparks some ideas for each one of you. I know that for me and my wife, this is an idea and a concept that will never escape us, and we will embark on this adventure ourselves. And so even for those who are in different spaces in life, I just think, again, as I said In the beginning, leadership happens in a lot of different contexts. And the fact that we're talking a little bit about family today, and how it can happen in a family, and how to cross-generationally, it can happen between and within. It's just such fun, so I knew when I heard this for the first time last summer, I knew we needed to capture it. And I really, really appreciate your time today. Now, I always close out the episode by asking guests what they're listening to reading, streaming, what's something that's caught your attention in recent times, that listeners might be interested, it could have something to do with what we've just discussed. It could have nothing to do with what we've just discussed. But what's something that's caught your attention And that might be of interest to listeners?
Cyn Cherry 30:04
Well, it probably doesn't relate directly to this, but two things. In fiction right now, I am rereading Brown's book The Boys in the Boat, probably because it's coming out as a movie, but just going back I just found it's a good time at this point in our history to go back and look at a story like this. That's true, but it's so inspirational. So I'm rereading that book, and then the other is in the nonfiction, reading how democracies die by Levitsky and looking at the research they have done of those who have, what the cues are and the clues around it, and I would suggest everybody read this book at this time in our history.
Scott Allen 30:52
Hmm, okay. Okay. Powerful, powerful, Jim.
Jim Dennis 30:58
The author that I'm drawn to, of late, has been David Brooks, who I probably discovered much later than most people, but the reading suffered when I served as a university president for 26 years. Unfortunately, I mean, I became adept at budget reading and practical things like that, but in terms of my own personal development, I didn't do so well. But David Brooks is just such a wonderful thinker, a deep intellectual. politics aside, he just gets to issues, and it's like, he's so wise, the way he is able to dissect things and then give some meaning to them. So I think that that's why I would hold him up as someone that I've been enjoying. It would be my guy of the day.
Scott Allen 32:00
Well, I can't think of a better conversation to round out 2023. As we begin to look to 2020 for listeners, as always, thank you so much for checking in. We really, really appreciate you doing so. And Cynthia, of course, we appreciate the support of the International Leadership Association, just an incredible organization doing incredible work out there in the world. And to all of you have a happy holidays, a wonderful new year. And as always, thanks for checking in. Be well - Cyn and Jim, thank you so much.
Jim Dennis/Cyn Cherry 32:38
Thank you, Scott. Thank you, Scott.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai