Dr. Barry L. Boyd is an Associate Professor in the Department of Agricultural Leadership, Education, & Communications (ALEC) at Texas A&M University. He holds the Thaman Professorship in Undergraduate Teaching Excellence. Dr. Boyd earned his doctorate from Texas A&M in 1991 with an emphasis in leadership education and instructional. He teaches courses in personal and organizational leadership development, developing youth leadership organizations, and applied ethics in leadership. Dr. Boyd’s research includes teaching and assessing critical thinking and using critical thinking in ethical decision-making. His team developed the QUEEN Model of Critical Thinking as part of a NIFA Higher Education grant.
Dr. Jennifer Strong is an Associate Professor of Leadership in the Department of Agricultural Leadership, Education, and Communications at Texas A&M University. She teaches undergraduate and graduate courses in leadership theory, ethics, organizational culture, team development, and leadership in popular culture. Her research includes the impact of innovative teaching methods on effective leader development and the intersectionality between critical thinking behavior (QUEEN Model), ethics, and followership. Dr. Strong received her bachelor's and master’s degrees in leadership from Texas A&M and her Ph.D. from Oklahoma State University.
A Quote From This Episode
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
About The Boler College of Business at John Carroll University
About Scott J. Allen
My Approach to Hosting
Dr. Barry L. Boyd is an Associate Professor in the Department of Agricultural Leadership, Education, & Communications (ALEC) at Texas A&M University. He holds the Thaman Professorship in Undergraduate Teaching Excellence. Dr. Boyd earned his doctorate from Texas A&M in 1991 with an emphasis in leadership education and instructional. He teaches courses in personal and organizational leadership development, developing youth leadership organizations, and applied ethics in leadership. Dr. Boyd’s research includes teaching and assessing critical thinking and using critical thinking in ethical decision-making. His team developed the QUEEN Model of Critical Thinking as part of a NIFA Higher Education grant.
Dr. Jennifer Strong is an Associate Professor of Leadership in the Department of Agricultural Leadership, Education, and Communications at Texas A&M University. She teaches undergraduate and graduate courses in leadership theory, ethics, organizational culture, team development, and leadership in popular culture. Her research includes the impact of innovative teaching methods on effective leader development and the intersectionality between critical thinking behavior (QUEEN Model), ethics, and followership. Dr. Strong received her bachelor's and master’s degrees in leadership from Texas A&M and her Ph.D. from Oklahoma State University.
A Quote From This Episode
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
About The Boler College of Business at John Carroll University
About Scott J. Allen
My Approach to Hosting
Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.
Scott Allen 0:00
Okay, everybody, welcome to the Phronesis Podcast. Thank you so much for checking in, we appreciate you doing so wherever you are in the world. Today, I have some longtime friends, and we've known each other for probably, I don't know, maybe 10, 15 years, Barry and Jenny. I don't know how long it is. But I'm excited for this conversation. It came across social media that the second edition of your book, ‘Ethical Leadership: Theory to Practice' had come up, and I said, “Hey, we need to have a conversation.” And so, thanks to the two of you for being here today. For listeners, Barry Boyd, Dr. Barry Boyd is an associate professor in the Department of Agricultural Leadership, Education, and Communication at Texas A&M University. He holds the Thaman professorship in undergraduate teaching excellence. Dr. Boyd earned his doctorate from Texas A&M in 1991, with an emphasis on leadership Education and Instructional Design. He teaches courses in personal and organizational leadership development, developing Youth Leadership Organizations in Applied Ethics in Leadership. Dr. Boyd's research includes teaching and assessing critical thinking and using critical thinking and ethical decision-making. His team developed the Queen model of critical thinking as part of a NIFA higher education grant. He is also, it's not in his bio, a former editor of the Journal of Leadership Education. So, I'm going to put that into your bio, Dr. Boyd.
Barry Boyd 1:24
Thank you.
Scott Allen 1:25
Yes. We also have Dr. Jenn Strong, and she is an Associate Professor of Leadership in the Department of Agricultural Leadership, Education, and Communication at Texas A&M University. She teaches undergraduate and graduate courses in leadership theory, ethics, organizational culture, team development, and leadership in popular culture. Her research includes the impact of innovative teaching methods on effective leader development, and the intersectionality between critical thinking behavior, ethics, and followership. Dr. Strong received her Bachelor's and Master's degrees in leadership from Texas A&M and her Ph.D. from Oklahoma State University. To the two of you, thank you. What else do listeners need to know about you, Jenn? What else do listeners need to know about you as we kind of begin our conversation?
Jennifer Strong 2:12
I have two claims of fame. One of them is I beat Kelly Clarkson in a singing contest.
Scott Allen 2:18
Wow. Okay, I like it.
Jennifer Strong 2:22
I was 16, she was 14. It doesn't matter, it was high school, it's fine. The other one was I almost got taken out by the Secret Service one time, which was pretty fantastic. But that's besides being a leadership educator, Professor, mom, a Disney fanatic. That's pretty much me.
Scott Allen 2:38
Almost got taken up by Secret Service. Tell us the quick version of that story, please.
Jennifer Strong 2:43
I was working out at our Rec Center here at Texas A&M as an undergraduate, and I was riding my bike. I'm going to date myself for a second because you had to tune your Walkman into the radio station of the TV that you wanted to watch. Okay. So, I was on my bike watching my show, pedaling around, not paying attention that there were some dudes walking around in full three-piece suits. That should have been my first indication that something was wrong. So, this guy comes up to me and says, “You're going to have to move.” And I said, “No, this is my bike,” because I'm 20 and stupid. And so he said, “No, you're going to need to move.” And I said, “No, this is my bike.” And I hear a voice from behind this man go, “I get it. The bike next to her is mine. I don't think she's a security threat, you can leave her be.” And it was President George Bush. So, papa Bush was there to work out, and security wanted to sweep the area and thought I was a threat to national security. It turns out it wasn't, and I had an amazing bike ride with the President and had some really great conversations.
Scott Allen 3:49
Oh, that is awesome. That is awesome. Barry, can you top this?
Barry Boyd 3:53
I can't even come close to that. Most of my experiences like that are ones I want to forget and probably have forgotten. Grandfather to three beautiful girls, my claim to fame. That's my retirement plan is to spend time with them and do those kinds of things.
Scott Allen 4:10
I love it. I love it. That's wonderful. We have our children's grandparents, two of them, their grandmother and grandfather. My wife's parents live in our community and it has just been absolutely incredible to have them as part of their lives. So, that's absolutely wonderful. That's wonderful. Well, to the two of you, one thing caught my eye. As I mentioned to you before we started, my copy arrived yesterday. So literally, I've kind of opened it up and just scanned and looked around. But I noticed two things. One is I love how you're situating this in kind of the collegiate context. You're meeting the students where they are in their world. So, maybe talk a little bit about that, and then, we'll see where the conversation takes us from there. What do you think?
Jennifer Strong 4:56
Absolutely. That's one of the reasons why we came back with a second edition. And, as we looked at developing the text, even, we couldn't find a text that had a really good mix of theory and application. They were either super philosophical, lots of isms, or it was all just, “How do we apply this, and we're going to skirt over it.” So when we put the first edition together, we're like, “Hey, we need something that does a little bit of both.” In the second edition, we actually got a lot of feedback from our students on how we can improve this. How can we make this a book that you're actually going to use, and you're going to be like, “Yep, I'm going to peace out. And as soon as I can return that to the library or the bookstore, I'm going to return to the bookstore.”? And one of the things they said was, “Speak our language.” And that's where the beginning of all the chapters came from, where we actually have a scenario that would make sense to an undergraduate college student, something that they probably have experienced, or their friend, or roommate has. And we really wanted to shape it in that way and use examples that they get. And we know andragogy is the most important thing in making those connections, and we just wanted to help them do that.
Scott Allen 6:11
Awesome. I love it, I think situating it in their context so that it feels relevant and relevant. I think it's brilliant. Barry, anything you want to add?
Barry Boyd 6:21
No, it's just like Jenn said: we couldn't find something that really worked for what we taught. And Kendall Hunt gives you the ability to build a book, which is what we did in the first edition; we built that from chapters from other books in their catalog. But again, that got us one step closer to what we wanted. But the second edition gets us right where we want to be with the students and something, hopefully, they'll read and relate to, yet it still gets across the theory and the application as well.
Scott Allen 6:55
Well, Barry, as you're working on the second edition, what are some things that kind of stood out for you? I just had a conversation with Jim Kouzes, and Leadership Challenge. And they've been doing that work for almost 40 years. And I said, “Jim, what have you observed as you've done this work for 40 years?” It's always a little bit interesting how things have shifted or changed in some ways between a first edition and a second edition. What did you observe in this go-round as you updated the text?
Barry Boyd 7:25
In writing the second one, of the writing we did so much. In the first edition, we wrote nothing. We borrowed other people's work. And so, in writing the second edition, I found it just really invigorating to be able to sit down and use my words and communicate things the way I thought they should be communicated. And then, just bouncing these drafts back and forth between Jenn and me was just a great mental exercise for me. And I enjoyed it a lot. And it makes me want to go out and find a third edition or makes me want to go write another one somewhere now because I enjoyed the process a lot. Once you get in the groove, you can kind of sit there and just write away. And that's how I work; Jenn worked a little differently.
Scott Allen 8:11
Well, and what's interesting about that, and what I love that you kind of framed it as, “Look, we couldn't find something that fit what we were doing, so we've created it. We've created something that we feel is going to resonate with the students.” Jenn, what stood out for you in this round of updating the book?
Jennifer Strong 8:29
Really taking into the students' feedback and putting that into the situation. And Barry and I fell into teaching a class on Leadership Ethics, and it was interesting. How that happened was when I was doing my thesis work way back in the Stone Age, one of my committee members said, “Hey, you're studying. Do our students actually remember and utilize these leadership theories? But do we know if they're using them for good or for evil purposes?” That kind of resonated with me because it's such a great question. And when I came back and interviewed for my position here at A&M, that same faculty member was sitting into my interview, and I remembered him saying that, and one of the questions was, “What are we missing in our curriculum in our leadership degrees?” And I said, “We talk about ethics, and we skirt around ethics, but it's like followership. We don't have anything really, truly focused on that.” And, of course, that wouldn't hurt anybody. So, on day three of my job, my department head came in and said, “Hey, remember in your interview when you said that thing, you should teach ethics.” And, holy mackerel, I had taken a couple of philosophy classes throughout my educational career, but I wasn't a subject matter expert at all. So, how we framed the class was how we learned ethics ourselves, which is also in thirds. So, the first third is about personal ethical development and ethical compass things, the second is about the isms, and the third is the application. So, we've got all three. And, as I teach that with my students, I very much engage them because ethics is the study of the gray. I make the joke that there are more than 50 shades. It's that idea that they're in their formative years. Holy mackerel, if we could go back, knowing what we know now and be an undergraduate student, we would rule the world. But they're trying to figure out what they believe is true. And, within ethics, their struggle helped me with this new edition of what we need to focus on. What do we need to have? Maybe a whole new chapter. So, edition 2 has a couple of different chapters that the first edition doesn't have. And, as Barry said, it's stuff that we actually wrote because we saw the need with our students, and we also, talking to industry, them telling us, “Hey, we have a deficit in this in your students and all students that are coming out of college. Can you help us address that?” So, a lot of that went into also edition 2.
Scott Allen 11:04
Well, it’s so interesting because I think you're exactly correct. This topic, and I've had a few episodes on the topic. And Dr. Sean Hannah said, “Look, ethics is a team sport,” and I always just loved that kind of phrasing. He was talking about some of his experiences in Desert Storm. And Craig Johnson has been on the podcast and a few others where we've talked about this dimension. But it's the foundation, and from a sustainability standpoint, if you weren't locked in with this very firmly in place, wow. And so, it's so interesting just if we kind of zoom out a little bit and look at what we oftentimes don't prioritize. I don't know what is more foundational than this. If you have a person in a position of authority, are you solid in who you are, and what you stand for, and what your red lines are? Because, if not, you're going to be pushed in a lot of different directions and going to be challenged, right?
Jennifer Strong 12:05
Absolutely.
Scott Allen 12:06
I love that. Something that I had not seen before was ethical followership. Would you talk a little bit about that? That's a really interesting… Is this one of the chapters that you all focused on? Was this the ethical followership chapter?
Jennifer Strong 12:23
Actually, it is. That is one of the chapters that we wanted to add and really engage with. And that came from, again, talking to industry, studying followership in that phenomenon, and getting involved in the global followership conference, it was at Christopher Newport University. And one of the things that, actually, Ron Riggio was standing up and talking about was the fact that we don't have enough research on followership, that that needs to be a push. Leadership has been looked at in all sorts of ways, but there's that deficit in followership. And kind of challenged us to say, how can we move that sub-discipline forward? And as we continued to talk, and I was in the middle of doing this book and editing, I was like, “No, OUR students need to be able to talk about ‘How do I follow in an ethical way?’ Because we know not all leaders are ethical, and we know that there are ways that we need to govern ourselves so that we can then lead up or we can lead the people around us, especially if you're a technical follower but you're an opinion leader.” And so, how can you utilize your personal values? And how can you work through that with organizational values? And what happens when there's not so much about connection there? And that was really kind of the genesis of that chapter of how can we help our students when they're going to follow 80% of their career? How can we help them do that in a more ethical way?
Scott Allen 13:54
Yeah. Barry, anything you want to add to that?
Barry Boyd 13:56
Well, we were teaching a little bit about ethical followership before we wrote this chapter in this book, and we really expanded it. But you think back to the roles like in the Theranos study with Elizabeth Holmes, if it hadn't been for ethical followers, would they have ever discovered what she was doing? Maybe eventually, but it was really those ethical followers that said, “This is wrong. We can't have her doing this; we'll try to get her on the right track.” But she refused to get on the right ethical track with that, so they had to go a different direction to bring it to the attention of people who could do something about it. That's just one example of how critical it is to be an ethical follower and what your roles are as an ethical follower.
Scott Allen 14:46
Well, yes. Very few acts of horror have been accomplished by just an individual throughout history. There was complicit behavior, whether it was overt or covert. And yes, if our students aren't moving into their careers firmly standing and who they are and what they stand for, again, they're going to find themselves in some interesting situations. And having that compass of, “What is my true north? And what is right and what is wrong?” I think that Theranos' case is just fascinating. It was a former Secretary of State's grandson, and he was like, “Hey, grandpa, some shady stuff is happening.” And grandpa was like, “No, we're good.” (Laughs) He put himself out there in a very, very, if I remember correctly, in a very… Wow.
Barry Boyd 15:43
At times, I think he and the other young lady thought their life was in danger. They were being followed, they were being intimidated. And I think they really were worried about their safety for a while. It takes a lot of courage to be an ethical follower.
Scott Allen 16:00
It does. A couple more things from the text. What else do you want to highlight for listeners? So, as they think about the resources they're using, what else stands out for you is something that you think? We've kind of talked about this ethical followership dimension, which is great, kind of the situating in the context of the students. What else stands out for you as something that is either resonating as you've used it with students, or just as a unique feature of the book?
Barry Boyd 16:27
Well, we both believe that critical thinking is a big part of ethical thinking. And so, there's a chapter on critical thinking, and we use the QUEEN model, which we developed to frame that. But we really emphasize utilizing those critical thinking behaviors when you're making ethical decisions. And so, in class yesterday, in fact, we went through this whole Moai fire and the multiple decisions that could have been made better to prevent that from being as bad as it was. We walked through the Queen model to see what behaviors this person could have engaged in to be able to make a much better ethical decision. So, I think, among ethical textbooks, including critical thinking as a basis for ethical thinking is a unique feature of the book.
Scott Allen 17:17
Talk a little bit about the QUEEN model, Jenn.
Barry Boyd 17:21
Would you describe how you came up with that QUEEN acronym? (Laughs)
Jennifer Strong 17:26
Again, there's always a great story. So, as Barry and I were…
Scott Allen 17:30
Kelly Clarkson was about to sing… (Laughs)
Jennifer Strong 17:34
Well, it did have something to do with the song. My multiple intelligence music is one of my highest multiple intelligences. So, as we're doing this Delphi and collecting really great information about behaviors, what makes the QUEEN different in critical thinking is that it's a behaviorally anchored model. So, what can we see in students? What can they see in themselves? How can they actually do the thing? Instead, do we have the propensity for? So, because of training, we can actually train behaviors, and we can change behaviors. So, as we are gathering that information, and we're doing all this thematic coding, and trying to figure that out, I was actually at a conference, and there was a break in the research sessions. And I went outside, and they had the music playing in the little pool area. It was an international conference, but they were playing like Yacht Rock radio, so very, like chill ‘70s and ‘80s.
Scott Allen 18:31
Like, Christopher Cross yes.
Jennifer Strong 18:33
Like Christopher Cross. Yes, absolutely. And so, it's that idea of I'm working, I've done it all on a lounge chair, I'm doing all the things. And a song called ‘King of Wishful Thinking’ by Go West came on. So, I'm singing in my head, like, “I'll get over you. I know I will.” And I'm sorting cards, and I'm doing the research. And then, it hit me as he was saying the refrain that maybe we should be the queen of critical thinking because I knew that two of my themes; one was questioning, okay, there's not a whole lot of keywords, and one was an E. So, as I'm sitting there, I realized that the themes actually do go Q U E E, Holy, moly, this is great. So questioning, understanding, explaining, and evaluating. Then we had this other category of how you put together all these different ideas and come up with something. Kiter talks about a Trilemma, which is another great way to look at something. And so, I right-clicked the source and came up with the word 'neoteric.' So, the Queen model is questioning, understanding, explaining, evaluating, and "neotric thinking." So, it's that idea of being able to take all of those skills and see lots of different points of view and then come up with something that's new. And so, the Queen model was birth that way. Since then, we have gone and done exploratory factor analysis, we've used it in classes, and we've done it with lots of different organizations as well because what we found when we do some of our consulting is that our for-profit and nonprofit are all saying critical thinking is one of the skills that is lacking in their followers. And they want to help that. So, that has strengthened the model, and we're excited that, as Barry said, we think it is truly to think like a leader is to think like a critical leader.
Scott Allen 20:39
It's great. So, critical thinking is kind of embedded in ethical decision-making in that whole kind of conversation. Anything else that stands out for you all as you think about this work? Obviously, as we speak, interfacing with the students, so you're going to get more feedback, you're going to get more data coming back to you, which is wonderful. Does anything else stand out for you that might be of interest to listeners?
Jennifer Strong 21:01
I think it's interesting, if you're thinking about this whole book idea, which is making sure that, when you work with a publisher, you have options. So, if you have a print version, and an e-version. And what I've found this semester is really interesting is that it has less to do with price than I thought because there is about a $30 difference between the e-version and the print version. But students have absolutely said, “I'm not an ebook person; I need it in my hands, I like to highlight, I like to write notes on the side, and I haven't found a platform yet that I can do that well electronically.” And then, I had other students that said, “No, absolutely. I want it electronic because my life is on this computer.” And so I think having that dual modality is a really cool thing as you're putting together a textbook.
Scott Allen 21:51
Exactly. What you need to do now is the two of you need to record the audiobook. We need the audiobooks so they can be working out on their treadmill, and the President walks up, you'd be like, “No, I'm listening to my Ethical Leadership Theory to Practice book. Leave me alone, sir.”
Jennifer Strong 22:09
That’s right, I'm studying.
Scott Allen 22:13
(Laughs) Well, okay. As we begin to wind down our time today, what's caught your attention that listeners might be interested in?
Barry Boyd 22:19
The book I'm reading right now and was a gift from a student who actually got it autographed by the author and is one of Jocko Willink’s books. That's his second book, ‘Extreme Ownership’ was his first book. Now, I'm drawing a blank on the title of the second.
Scott Allen 22:36
Talks about dichotomies, I believe. It's ‘The Dichotomy of Leadership’ or something of that nature. Yeah, okay, good, interesting.
Barry Boyd 22:42
‘The Dichotomy of Leadership,’ yeah. So, among all the former military people who write leadership books, I think he's done the best job of writing it in a way that's different from everybody else, to start with, but writing in a way that I think is very effective and you can take his lessons from or his examples from the seals, and he can tie it right into corporate America because he does a lot of work in corporate America. And so, I'm just finding his point of view fascinating, and how he writes, it’s totally different from almost any other airport leadership book that you get that's been written by former military people. And so, Jocko is kind of my non-pleasure reading, even though it's kind of pleasurable. It's not my fiction reading right now.
Scott Allen 23:27
Well, I just finished ‘The Extreme Ownership,’ I had not listened to it. I had some students that… It very much resonates with a certain faction of students. They have had several recommend it to me, so I listened to it. What was interesting is that at the end of the audiobook that I was listening to, they teased the most recent book, ‘The Dichotomy of Leadership.’ And what I appreciated about him was that speaking of the kind of after it interfaces with the world, they did a really nice job of saying, “Hey, here's what we've learned about Extreme Ownership. And this is what we've experienced as we've better understand how people are consuming this.” He even says, “Look, the name Extreme Ownership may have been a little bit misleading.” That, at times, we don't need Extreme Ownership. It's more about shades of gray here. 50 shades or plus, or more. But it's those shades of gray, and what am I intentionally choosing in this moment? Is it extreme, or is it a situation where maybe that's not appropriate? So, that's then kind of the primer for where they came to the dichotomies. You're navigating these different tensions. That's great. That's wonderful. I'll check out that book as well. And I also appreciated that you have a story about what's happening in Ramadi, where they were stationed. And then, you have an application to business. A principle and then an application of business, which I think was wonderful. It was brilliant, so I couldn't agree more. Jenn, how about you?
Jennifer Strong 25:00
Well, I am in the thick of my leadership and pop culture course. So, I find myself being very tuned in to what's going on in the world around me. But one of my favorite assignments that I give them is a choice of five to six fiction books, and they have to choose one, and then they read it and analyze it for leadership. So, I do six based on very different genres to make sure that everybody gets something they get excited about, but also things that are either in production, or post-production, or going to be released as a TV series or movie soon so they can have the experience of being at a dinner party and say, “I read the book, the books better,” or, “I read the book, and this is actually the leadership that I found in the book.” Yeah, it also helps on interviews. When people ask this exact question, “Well, what are you reading?” And they can say, “Hey, I just read ‘The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes,’ and that prequel to The Hunger Games is all about social contract theory.” So, they can actually infuse the theoretical knowledge from their class into the conversation. So, right now, I am rereading those six books that I gave them so that I can grade their assignment and refresh my memory too.
Scott Allen 26:17
Oh, that's wonderful. That's wonderful. So what would be a couple of other books that are in that suite of books that you have them choose from?
Jennifer Strong 26:26
So, this semester, besides ‘The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes,’ I've got the ‘Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo,’ which is a Taylor Jenkins read novel. And what's great about her world is she truly sucks you in. And she takes a minor character from each of her books, and then the next book is about that major character. So ‘Daisy Jones & The Six’ was just a very big thing on Amazon Prime. That's one of her books, and actually, a character from that is one of Evelyn's husbands. So, it's great how that kind of all works together. So that's more of the romance-type genre. There's a really cool sci-fi one called ‘The Three-Body Problem’. There are some aliens involved; there's some issues with a totalitarian Chinese regime and how that interacts with some aliens. It's going to be on Netflix in January. So, that's always exciting. I know, they're kind of crazy ones. Trying to figure out what the students might be interested in, ‘Black Chalk’ is one; it's set at Oxford. It's about a secret society and the impacts of the secret society post-collegiate life. And it's a murder mystery, very intriguing, psychological thriller, type one. And Ron Howard is supposed to direct that one, so I'm very excited. But with the SAG-AFTRA stuff going on, we're not quite sure what's going on.
Scott Allen 27:49
That's great. I had a course last spring on real technologies enabling disruption. So it's a graduate-level course, we talk about different technologies every week. It might be blockchain this week, and then artificial intelligence, some version of large language models, or can we get to a place of general artificial intelligence or super intelligence? And sensor technology, the internet of things, and 3D printing. Every week, it's a different topic. There was a gentleman in my community who started an electric motorcycle company called ‘Land,’, and it's incredible. It's really, really cool what they're doing. But he wanted the students to read ‘Daisy Jones & The Six’ about motorcycles before his session. So, I listened to the book, and I reached out to him and I said, “You got to help me understand here because I'm going to get the question myself. How does this apply?”
(Laughter)
Scott Allen 28:47
“It’s about a band in the ‘70s, there's some sex, and drugs, and Rock and Roll, and I'm going to have to explain this if anyone asks,” and he said, “Oh, it's more of kind of the spirit of what they were about. That's kind of our spirit.” And I'm like, “Okay, cool.”
(Laughter)
Jennifer Strong 29:03
That's great.
Scott Allen 29:03
“As long as you can weave it in and land that plane, that's awesome. So, it seems like you have a more direct purpose for it. I love it. I love it.” Well, to the two of you, thank you so much for stopping in today and having the conversation. You know what? It's always a pleasure. So, I am thankful for our friendships, and thank you so much for taking the time today.
[End Of Audio]