Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott Allen

Dr. Nathan Eva - Exploring Servant Leadership

August 30, 2023 Scott J. Allen Season 1 Episode 190
Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott Allen
Dr. Nathan Eva - Exploring Servant Leadership
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Dr.  Nathan Eva is a Fulbright Scholar (2021) and the co-director of Engagement for the Department of Management at the Monash Business School. His research examines follower-first leadership approaches that deliver organizational performance combined with inclusive and supportive workplaces.

Associate Professor Eva received his Ph.D. from Monash University in 2014, received the 2015 Emerald/EFMD Outstanding Doctoral Research Award in Leadership, was awarded as a 2016 Greenleaf Scholar by the Greenleaf Centre for Servant Leadership, received the 2020 Dean's Awards for Excellence in Research by an Early Career Researcher, and was Highly Commended for his research as an Early Career Scholar for the 2018 ANZAM Excellence Awards. He received the 2016 and 2013 Dean's Award for Teaching Excellence at the Monash Business School, and has been consistently recognized for outstanding teaching by the Office of the Vice-Provost.

His peer-reviewed work appears in international outlets such as The Leadership Quarterly, Journal of Organizational Behavior, and Human Resource Management. His article on Servant Leadership in The Leadership Quarterly is the most downloaded and the most cited article in their journal since 2017, and his article on Psychological Safety in Human Resource Management Review received the journal's Scholarly Impact Award for the most impactful article (2017-2022).

Associate Professor Eva is a Board Member of the Network of Leadership Scholars, the Chair of the Leadership Scholarship stream for the International Leadership Association, and the Co-Chair of the International Leadership Association’s Leadership Education Academy. He is a Senior Editor for Management and Organization Review and an editorial board member of The Leadership Quarterly, Journal of Organizational Behavior, Journal of Business Ethics, & Group and Organizational Management.

A Quote From this Episode

  • "At the very core, it's all around this other orientation...Servant leaders really focus on the personal and professional development of their employees, team members, classmates, or sportsmates."


Resources Mentioned in This Episode


About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

  • The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. Plan for ILA's 25th Global Conference in Vancouver, British Columbia, October 12-15, 2023.


About The Boler College of Business at John Carroll University

  • Boler offers four MBA programs – 1 Year Flexible, Hybrid, Online, and Professional. Each MBA track offers flexible timelines and various class structure options (online, in-person, hybrid, asynchronous). Boler’s tech core and international study tour opportunities set these MBA programs apart. Rankings highlighted in the intro are taken from CEO Magazine.


About  Scott J. Allen


My Approach to Hosting

  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.

Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation. 

Dr. Eva shared the following resources for listeners interested in learning more about Servant Leadership.


Scott Allen  0:00  

Okay everybody, welcome to the Phronesis podcast. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world. Today, I have Associate Professor; Dr. Nathan Eva. And he is a Fulbright scholar, and the co-director of engagement for the Department of Management at the Monash Business School in Australia. His research examines follower-first leadership approaches to deliver organizational performance combined with inclusive and supportive workplaces. Associate Professor Eva received his Ph.D. from Monash University in 2014. Received the 2015 Emerald EFMD Outstanding Doctoral Research Awards in leadership. Awarded as a 2016 Greenleaf scholar by the Greenleaf Center for servant-leadership, received the 2020 Dean's Awards for Excellence in Research by an early career researcher, and was highly commended for his research as an Early Career Scholar for the 2018 ANZAM Excellence Awards. He was nominated for the 2017 and 2016 Vice Chancellor's Award for Teaching Excellence. He received the 2016 and 2013 Dean's Award for Teaching Excellence at the Monash Business School and has been consistently recognized for outstanding teaching by the Office of the Vice Provost. His peer-reviewed work appears in international outlets such as The Leadership Quarterly, Journal of Organizational Behavior, and Human Resource Management. His article on servant leadership in the Leadership Quarterly is the most downloaded and most cited article in the journal since 2017. His article on psychological safety in Human Resource Management Review received the journal’s Scholarly Impact Award for the most impactful article. Associate Professor Eva is a board member of the Network of Leadership Scholars, the chair of the Leadership Scholarship Stream for the International Leadership Association, and the co-chair of the International Leadership Association's Leadership Education Academy. He's a senior editor for Management and Organization Review and an editorial board member of The Leadership Quarterly, Journal of Organizational Behavior, Journal of Business Ethics, and Group & Organization Management. Sir, you have been a busy, busy person; congratulations on this great work. What else do our listeners need to know about you? I see a guitar in the background. Is that a cricket paddle, maybe? What else can we share that listeners… When you're not writing and reading and teaching excellently, what else do you have going on?

 

Nathan Eva  2:35  

Thanks so much, Scott. Yes, I'm in my office here in Alice Springs. So, I will say my wife is a museum curator. And those jobs are rarer than tenure track jobs, so it means we sort of go where the work is. So, at the moment, we have just moved to the middle of Australia. If you see a map, right smack bang in the middle, out with the kangaroos, out with the dingoes. I've been told the weather's a little bit like Phoenix, Arizona; so nice and hot, and then just very, very cold overnight. So, a lot of what we're doing at the moment is just getting to explore this area of Australia which a lot of people don't get to go to. You’re mentioning the stuff at the back of me; I'm a mad sports fan, so cricket and AFL. Although, I am enjoying the NBA playoffs so far. Last year, my wife and I got to spend the entire year in the US; we got to visit about 30 states across the US and five provinces in Canada. So, while our home base was at the University of Illinois in Chicago, it was absolutely fantastic getting to visit your home state, getting to visit all corners of the US and getting to see some really unique parts of rural America.

 

Scott Allen  3:39  

Yes, North America. What were some of the highlights for you? What stands out as you reflect on the experience of traveling North America?

 

Nathan Eva  3:47  

It's funny, like from a listener's point of view, looking at the university system, and the similarities between them. So, the similarities between, say, year-ones, and year-twos, and year-threes, there are Ph.D. students that everyone's trying to look after and build, their workloads are getting higher and higher; the student population just want to know more and more about leadership, which is fantastic for us as leadership educators. But from a more broader sort of, what stood out was the colors. I hadn't seen colors like that anywhere else in the world. So, when we're driving through New England, and both the colors in the middle of spring, so there's beautiful greens and yellows, and then, obviously, through the autumn as well. Just incredible. And then getting to spend… I had this amazing week where I started at Niagara Falls, then went to the Grand Canyon, and finished at Disneyland. So, this amazing eclectic mix of America within seven days. 

 

Scott Allen  4:46  

(Laughs) Yes, that’s a lot. Well, the path that we're charting today is really a discussion around servant leadership. And I think, probably about 15 years ago, I read Greenleaf's book, but I have not spent a lot of time with this topic, so I'm excited to have you as an expert on this topic really in dialogue today. And I think what I would love for us to do is maybe just whet the listeners' appetite about what it is about servant leadership that really stands out for you. What are some foundational things listeners should know? What elements did you find in your research that have intrigued you? Maybe, how can they learn a little bit more? Maybe that's a pathway we take, and maybe we start with, what are some foundational concepts listeners need to know about.

 

Nathan Eva  5:39  

At the very,  very core, it's all around this other orientation. If that is the only thing that you take out of this, I think that's just that core. So, servant leaders, really focus on the personal and professional development of their employees, team members, classmates, or sports mates, or whatever that might be. You're looking at developing those. So, it's about asking yourself, after these people have worked with me, have they grown? There are so many different ways people can grow with it, whether we talk personally, or professionally, whether that's building up skills in Excel, building up their confidence, building up their networks, finding meaning in what they're doing. Maybe it's just coping strategies, whatever that might be, but it really comes down to that question; have they grown during that time? And that's really what distinguishes servant leadership from the other approaches of leadership. And the other thing that I want to highlight here is that it does have a strong emphasis on community. So, you talked about Greenleaf before, who's the founder of servant leadership, he argued that the world can only become a better place if businesses actively worked to do that through work in their communities. Getting there, rolling up their sleeves, making sure that they're developing their communities and the profits that they have are going back to make the world a better place. So, I look at researchers like Jim Momoid, Bob Lydon, who really emphasize this community aspect through servant leadership, and I think that's really important as we move as a field, as we're going through this year of peak leadership theories. So, servant leadership, and have a look at the works of Matt Alderson, for example, even George Banks, who's a previous guest of yours, they talk a lot about the similarities between servant, and ethical, and authentic, and transformational. Absolutely. Even in my own work, I've both addressed that and grappled with that. So, when we're talking about what is these foundational concepts about servant leadership or what is unique about servant leadership versus these others, it comes down to it's that devotion to followers and that devotion to community. And those are things that really make it stand out.

 

Scott Allen  7:45  

Okay. I've never heard it framed that way, so I love this. So, devotion to followers; are others better because they have interacted with me in however we're defining better? Maybe that's that they've grown. And there's this focus on community. Just had a wonderful conversation recently with Meg Wheatley, and she talks a lot about community. And, of course, Henry Mintzberg talks about communityship. But then, in other podcast episodes recently, in recent times, it's just been a theme and dialogue, whether it's the health of individuals, or the happiness of individuals. A number of different scholars have touched on this theme of community, but I've never heard it highlighted in a leadership theory like this. Would you talk a little bit more about both of those dimensions, that others are better because they've interacted with me, but then there's this focus, this other distinction about community?

 

Nathan Eva  8:41  

Thanks, Scott. So, I'll address the other-oriented element first, too. And I think that it is important to note that we have a lot of different leadership approaches out there, if we even think back to relational leadership as well, they do talk a lot about others. So, it's not like servant leadership holds this entire aspect to [Inaudible 8:59] been around since 1978. But what I feel really resonates with a servant leadership study or servant leader is how we have these conversations with followers. Thinking back to a really practical example, we're running some servant leadership training with a large transportation organization. And we were talking to them about, well, how are you looking to develop your followers? Okay, well, let's start with these one-on-one conversations. So, Scott, what do you want to achieve? What do you want to get out of it? Where do you want to go with your life, your job? Starting to break down those barriers and have that conversation. So, one of the examples that came out of this was -- because we were doing this month by month, I had to report back in the next month -- they were saying that “Oh, I had a chat with one of my employees who was actively looking for another job. I didn't know this, but they are actively looking for another job because they want to move more into marketing. By having this conversation, we've been able to get them a secondment in the marketing teams. We've been able to keep them in the organization. And if we weren't having those conversations, well, we would have lost this person; I never would have known.” It might seem a little bit obvious, but when I go around and speak to a whole host of different leaders, like, “What are your employees wanting to get out? How are they growing? What are their career goals other than just hitting their KPIs over the next 12 months? Where do they want to be in five, 10, and 15 years? Is it your job? Is it something else?” And it doesn't matter whether you're shift manager at McDonald's or you're a CEO of McDonald's; no matter who you've got working with you; there's going to be a future for these employees, these team members, etc., where's that going to be? It also allows you then to be able to set up individual performance plans, individual coaching, whatever that might be. So, if you look at it from a sporting metaphor, you're going to have these different elements for each one of the different players. So, thinking about that from a business perspective as well.

 

Scott Allen  10:53  

 Great. And then, community. 

 

Nathan Eva  10:57  

So, with the community aspect, there are a couple of different elements here that go within the broader theory of what servant leadership has been developed. So, there's a very simple one about, “Are you putting money back into the community?” So, those things such as community days, or sponsoring a local chess club, or whatever that might be. There's a second part that really around this volunteering aspect - are we going out and volunteering in the community? So, a lot of servant leadership organizations that draw on servant leadership principles will build that into their KPIs. It's not just, “We have a volunteering day,” it's, “This is something we want everyone to do that we're doing this as a team, we're using this to build our team, and we're actually drawing meaning from it.” We're not just going out there; we're not just doing it and saying, “God, wasn't this fun? We planted trees,” but what does that mean? What is the impact that that's actually having on the community? Are we seeing this impact come through? So, in terms of their choices there. And then, it's just making business choices. So, who are our suppliers? Who are our customers? Who are we drawing from? How are we building those partnerships as we go along? So, really looking for win-win solutions. Because, at the end of the day, I look at here, I'm in Alice Springs, I'm in a town of 25,000 people, and there is literally nothing around us for an eight-hour drive. You have to look after everyone in that town. You can't try and screw everyone over. Everyone has to be a partner, and you see this element of servant leadership coming out because those who come in and who are trying to make a quick buck, or those who are in it for themselves, are not going to last because you need to be here for the community. And taking that sort of message, obviously, more broadly into markets, that you definitely can get away with being a little bit profit-driven.

 

Scott Allen  12:42  

Okay. So, those are a couple of foundational pieces when we have this conversation. Take us a little deeper; what are some other things that stand out for you as you think about servant leadership? What else do listeners need to know? 

 

Nathan Eva  13:07  

The listeners who are engaging in a lot of research, this might sound overly rosy because, a lot of the times, when you're trying to establish a leadership theory or leadership style on the field, a lot of that is being overly rosy about what are the great things that this does. So, we can talk about that it's good for employees that they’re looked after they want to stay with the organization, they've got increased well-being, they're more likely to help each other out, to speak up, to feel safe at work, which is great. Customers, we know that there's an increased level of service quality, we know that employees are willing to go the extra mile for customers as well. For business partners, we talked about it before in that fair decision-making, driving those win-win solutions, their sort of ethical climates. We know for communities and societies, those increased volunteering increased CSI behaviors. What's been really interesting, though, is that it's been very, very good for shareholders that we see this demonstration of increased performance across the board. From individual performance right up to firm performance. And I look at something like Home Depot, which is very much a servant leadership-based company; they’re flipping that triangle upside down, which serves people. They have just continued to demonstrate profit upon profit year in a year out, even though they spend millions in the community, they have really strong employee-focused leave programs, and they’re incredibly strong customer service focused. So, it's really great to see that organizations who engage in these sorts of behaviors are actually reaping the rewards because, at the end of the day, it is all well and good to talk about this, but if you're not turning in profit, you're not going to be there next year. It's correct to say that this is working. So, we've seen a lot of different research around servant leadership come out through the field. So, recently, there have been quite a few meta-analyses that have looked at the overall impact of servant leadership, as you said, that it's quite strong. That there's been some really good work looking at servant leadership across cultures, and seeing that it does, for the most part, translate across cultures, especially, funnily enough, in sort of like the Chinese Civil Service, I think is a really, really awesome location we’ve seen a good amount of servant leadership research come from. It has been embedded in their civil service charter that you need to be focusing downwards, if you will, and are focusing on your employees or on the people rather than focusing up. And we've seen that the departments who have engaged in that have had some really strong outcomes. We know that there's probably not a big national or cultural shift in terms of engaging in servant leadership, it seems to work pretty well everywhere, and it seems to work in the same sort of ways even though we've tried to test that and tease that out. And then, in terms of the meta-analyses, and I'll be a little bit selective here, if I look at Julie Hawk’s meta-analysis, just the impact that servant leadership has had over, say, transformational authentic and ethical leadership across a lot of the outcomes that we've talked about today. So, it is being able to hold its own. It's insane that you talked about measures and measurement of servant leadership. And I'd be remiss not to go back to you had George Banks on a while ago, and he was talking specifically around issues with measurement in leadership, and servant leadership is no different. While we've got some good sound measures, there is a question about what we're measuring, which is the general perceptions of people. And we know there are halo effects that are going on there. We know that if you have been good to me, I'm probably going to halo you across a whole lot of different measures, even if you haven't been ethical, Scott. So, there are concerns there. When I've tried to run a lot of different experiments now, being able to tease out the differences has been really difficult. So, when we've put up what's, based on the theory, really strong, authentic leadership vignettes, or examples of leaders engaging in authentic leadership versus servant leadership, your layperson off the street is struggling to tell the difference. They're more saying, “Oh, that's good leadership, and that's good leadership.” So, there's a lot of onus on us as researchers to get a lot better at that and really target these sorts of behaviors that we're interested in. So, if I think about my own work at the moment, while I'm still engaging in a lot of servant leadership work, I'm trying to drill down on specific servant leader behaviors or specific situations that make the most sense for servant leadership, rather than saying this big, overarching concept which can, at times, be sucked into good leadership rather than servant leadership itself.

 

Scott Allen  17:47  

What might some of those appropriate times be? Do you have any hunches?

 

Nathan Eva  17:52  

Yes, yes. So, being mindful that a couple of the things are published, they come out in the journals. So, I'll be a little bit coy on this just in case there is potential reviewers listening in, but specifically when you've got other options in your kitbag as leaders. So, when you're not having to engage in more aggressive behaviors to punish people, for example. When you've got other levers, whether that's being able to dock pay, or whether that's being able to have formal reprimands, HR, and the likes, that you can still use servant leadership approach in that to look after the person, we're finding that, in the careers field, particularly, in the vocational behavior field, that servant leadership is working really, really well relative to other leadership approaches because, funnily enough, that focus in on one-on-one and other-oriented approaches. It's not just about the vision for the team, it's not just about being ethical, that there's that sort of, “Where are you going, Scott? How can I help you? What is the support that I can give you to go and achieve the things that you want to achieve?” And so, finding, in those spaces, it's working really, really quite well. And I think that the research around the public service more broadly, whether it's in the UK, China, in the US, Bangladesh -- there’s been some research out there -- that we're seeing that servant leadership is making a lot of sense in there because of things like that public service motivation, or that prosocial motivation. It’s really resonating in those spaces.

 

Scott Allen  19:24  

Mmm. I know of the Greenleaf Center. I believe it's located in Indiana in the United States. But talk a little bit about the Greenleaf scholars because I imagine this is a group of individuals really working to build this base of scholarship around this concept.

 

Nathan Eva  19:39  

Yeah. The Greenleaf Center has been a huge supporter of servant leadership research. And I think we're really lucky in that regard that the Greenleaf Center is trying to… Well, is continuing the legacy of Robert Greenleaf and the Greenleaf Scholars Program There is sponsoring students and early tenure faculty to go and do great servant leadership research with funding, which, obviously, is very hard to get if you're a student. Each year, there might be three to five different awards to be able to focus on servant leadership research. I was lucky enough that I've been a recipient; some of my students have as well. And I look at a lot of the up-and-coming servant researchers in the field; all of them have been supported by the Greenleaf Center and have been incredibly lucky in that way. And I think it's also what makes us a really unique community because we've got bodies like Greenleaf Center who are there to support us as we go through our scholarship journey.

 

Scott Allen  20:36  

Great. I know you have a special issue coming up, is that accurate?

 

Nathan Eva  20:40  

That is, that is. Yes. Group & Organization Management.

 

Scott Allen  20:44  

Talk about it. 

 

Nathan Eva  20:46  

So, myself, Jarvis Smallfield, G. James Lemoine, Chad A. Hartnell, and Jeremy D. Meuser - we wanted to address some of these issues that are brought up throughout this podcast. So, we know that servant leadership is a good concept, but we also know that it does have its flaws. So, what we wanted to do with this special issue is we wanted to address those and build stronger foundations for a healthier construct. And what I really love about this special issue is that we want to model a lot of servant leadership within it. So, we reached out to six of the leading voices in servant leadership across the globe. So Mitchell Neubert, Emily Hunter, Jasmine (Jia) Hu, Sandy Wayne, and Sen Sendjaya -  we asked them, “Will you mentor a group of junior scholars pre-tenure faculty as co-authors to help build their ideas?” And they were like, “Yes. Of course, we will.” We're asking junior scholars, so I said students and pre-tenure faculty to put together a 10-page pitch of what it is that they want to do to be able to strengthen servant leadership research. This might be conceptual trying to fix some of those issues; it might be how servant leaders are developed and what that long-lasting community impact is. Maybe it's a refinement of measurement as we've talked about today, maybe it's those novel research designs that protect against these issues, maybe it's a more broad analysis of systems of power, hierarchy, and authority, and race, nationality, gender, all of those things coming out and how they influence servant leadership. And each one of them will be paired with a senior scholar who's going to co-author and help develop their idea and support and mentor them through this process. And what's going to be fantastic about that is that it's helping build up this next generation. We're going to have these specialized conferences, there’s going to be those mentorships. And there's going to be just this large group of servant leadership scholars that want to see you succeed and are going to help build you up rather than try and shoot holes through your research. So, I'm really excited about that. I think it's a really novel concept for a special issue. We're really excited to see where this might go. 

 

Scott Allen  22:53  

I love it. And I love the fact that you're modeling, in some ways, the focus on the individual and building them up. And they're better off because they've crossed paths with you. And we're building some community in a really, really nice way. That's wonderful.

 

Nathan Eva  23:09  

I think it's really tough as a junior scholar being able to get senior scholars onto pieces or even engage with them. So, we wanted to be able to break down that barrier as well.

 

Scott Allen  23:19  

I love it. I love it. Well, Nathan, I know you have a lot of interests. You're prolific in your scholarship; you're prolific in your teaching. What have you been thinking about lately? What are some things that are on your radar, and what has piqued your interest? Obviously, you have this dream of servant leadership, but what else has caught your eye?

 

Nathan Eva  23:41  

It's a really good question because I think, as scholars, that there's so much exciting things that are out there that you just want to grab onto different things. One of the pieces that I've been thinking about for a while that's coming through on different parts of my work is a better acknowledgment of the leadership knowledge that has been around us for up to 60,000 years. So, I look at, coming from Australia, joining me now in Alice Springs from the lens of the Aranda people. The Aranda people have been leading the community for over 60,000 years. And, a lot of the time, we don't draw on that knowledge. I've been very lucky to work with Katrina Johnson, a Gooreng Gooreng Woman (who grew up on Yorta Yorta Country) on Monash’s Master's of Indigenous Business Leadership program. So, building up and developing a course specifically around indigenous leadership knowledge and building indigenous leaders, building on their skills and experiences. I guess, formalizing their leadership knowledge in terms of a Western curriculum, but Western certificates. That's what I'm looking for; certificates, the master's degree. And so, as I'm engaging in these spaces, and chatting to these incredible indigenous leaders, and just learning more and more about this scholarship, going, “Well, there's so much that we really should be drawing in. There's so much to this knowledge that we just ignore.” And so, playing with many of those different ideas, I think I know that it is tough when dealing with concepts that don't affect us, white males...when we're talking about indigenous leadership, there's a lot of elements that I don't fully understand. So, working with a lot of indigenous scholars to help guide me through that because we can't continue to do the exact same research, which is focused on a narrow audience, which is - generally, white Midwestern males coming out of the US. That, for us to grow as a field of leadership, we need to be drawing in multiple, multiple different voices. Like you were talking to Sherylle Tan in the last couple of months, I love hearing her work and reading her work, and that's such a rich part of our leadership literature. People like Sonia Spina, just a beautiful rich part of our literature. And getting better in myself and being able to draw on these different concepts. So, I think that's a big part of where I want to go, to be able to help elevate and draw on lots of different voices and bring new voices to the field. And so, part of that will be, for me, a lot of learning, and some mentorships and menteeship, and working with a broad audience. I guess the second part would be around leadership development, and we need to be doing a lot better at leadership development both in our research and our teaching. Currently, it is incredibly difficult to do leadership development research due to small sample sizes, measuring change, and how we deal with control groups. So really engaging in that messy process, making a lot of mistakes. So, every time we go and run our own leadership development programs, measuring that and realizing, “Oh, we messed up here, we messed up here, we messed up here. Let's start that again.” And then, just engaging in that research as much as we possibly can because we have this huge literature on what makes good leaders, the subsequent literature on how we develop good leaders is much, much, much smaller. So we can do a lot better job at doing that.

 

Scott Allen  27:17  

Oh, 100%. 100%. I love that you're interested in that space because I think, in some ways, it's such an incredible opportunity. Billions of dollars are being spent all over the world. Billions. And, if we were moving the needle, we'd be singing from the mountaintops, “Hey, we developed a leader right here.”

 

(Laughter)

 

Scott Allen  27:42  

I haven't seen that press release yet. And you were talking about some of the indigenous wisdom. A friend of mine, Sharna Fabiano, sent me a link to a book, and I'm going to say his name, and maybe because you're more local to the context, you've heard of him; Tyson Yunkaporta. 

 

Nathan Eva  28:02  

Yep. 

 

Scott Allen  28:07  

Okay. I listened to it. And Tyson Yunkaporta, I think I'm saying that correctly, wrote this book, ‘Sand Talk: How Indigenous Thinking Can Save the world.' And this was the best audiobook I have ever listened to. This gentleman just read this book incredibly beautifully and engagingly, but it was so wonderful to hear him discuss that worldview. And I couldn't agree with you more, I think that, to your point, a lot of this work has come out of North America, higher education, primarily men, and there are a lot more voices out there that have wisdom that is critical, that is important, and we have to pay attention to it. 60,000 years of community, there's a lot of wisdom there. A lot, right?

 

Nathan Eva  29:10  

Absolutely. Absolutely. 

 

Scott Allen  29:13  

Wow. And so, you have to listen to it. Sand Talk, it's just an incredible listen. I was captivated. I looked forward to getting in the car.

 

Nathan Eva  29:23

(Laughs) That is a sign of a good book. 

 

Scott Allen  29:29  

That was incredible. Well, as we wind down our time for today, I always ask guests what it is that you're listening to, or streaming, or watching. Something that's caught your attention in recent times, it could be academic, it could be something completely the opposite of academics. It could be a new band. But what's something that's caught your attention in recent times that you think listeners would be interested in?

 

Nathan Eva  29:53  

It’d be a really boring one for you, Scott. I've been listening a lot to the leadership educator podcast. That's with Lauren Bullock and Dan Jenkins. They’re currently doing this series on publishing Leadership Development Research, which I've absolutely adored getting to listen to a lot of different journal editors and people. Different thoughts and opinions on how they're engaging with that particular work. I really do enjoy it, and it’s something that I get my tutors to listen to as well just because it helps guide them and guide their thinking around how we engage in leadership education as a profession rather than just as the teaching we have to do, or it's just a way to make money. No, it's a way to absolutely change lives. And I think that Lauren and Dan's passion for that really, really comes through. So, if you're listening, that'd be my recommendation. 

 

Scott Allen  30:44  

They do great work. They do great work. And I've been on their podcast, they've been on my podcast. And they had a conversation with Stephen Brookfield that I just absolutely loved, absolutely loved. So, I couldn't agree with you more, I will put a link to that in the show notes for sure. Anything else?

 

Nathan Eva  31:04  

My last thing, Scott, would just be a pitch for Australian music. We have such an amazing group of artists outside of AC/DC and Kylie Minogue. People who are coming up through like, Baker Boy, Thelma Plum, Gang of Youths. We have this amazing music scene within Australia, some really beautiful underground artists. So, I'd encourage anyone to just jump on Spotify, and take a look at some Australian music or one of their radio stations, Triple J. They do a lot of unearthing of strong local talent. So I would highly suggest any of your listeners, if you're looking for something new, check out some Australian music.

 

Scott Allen  31:41  

I love it. I love it. Well, sir, I'm so thankful for your time. I appreciate it. I'll put a bunch of links in the show notes for listeners so you'll have access to many of the different resources we've discussed today. And you know what? Keep up the incredible work. Out of the gate, strong, my friend. Out of the gate, strong, just doing incredible things out there. Thank you for that. I'm excited for our paths to cross in person, in three dimensions, but for now, so good to have a conversation with you.

 

Nathan Eva  32:12  

A pleasure to see you, Scott. I'm looking forward to seeing you at the International Leadership Association conference in Vancouver this October.

 

Scott Allen  32:18  

I will be there. I will be there. Take care, sir. 

 

Nathan Eva  32:21  

You too.

 

[End Of Audio]

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